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SpiderWebComm
06-14-2007, 01:39 PM
Since someone else brought up a break question - I will too. I have a tendency to leave a ball or two exposed after the break, although my speed control is usually spot-on (leaving the CB on the rail near a corner pocket in the kitchen).

When I play average players it's sufficient. When I play players w/ speed, it's not... and I sit down for a while.

Any good advice or "swing thoughts" prior to breaking that could produce a more locked-down break? Any thoughts?

Steve Lipsky
06-14-2007, 01:43 PM
Since someone else brought up a break question - I will too. I have a tendency to leave a ball or two exposed after the break, although my speed control is usually spot-on (leaving the CB on the rail near a corner pocket in the kitchen).

When I play average players it's sufficient. When I play players w/ speed, it's not... and I sit down for a while.

Any good advice or "swing thoughts" prior to breaking that could produce a more locked-down break? Any thoughts?

More than anything, you need to go up and check the rack. Make sure all back balls are totally frozen to each other. From my experience, this is by far the single largest determinant of a successful break.

Hope this helps,
Steve

Williebetmore
06-14-2007, 03:29 PM
Since someone else brought up a break question - I will too. I have a tendency to leave a ball or two exposed after the break, although my speed control is usually spot-on (leaving the CB on the rail near a corner pocket in the kitchen).

When I play average players it's sufficient. When I play players w/ speed, it's not... and I sit down for a while.

Any good advice or "swing thoughts" prior to breaking that could produce a more locked-down break? Any thoughts?

SWC,
Several of my mentors have echoed what Steve Lipsky has said; make sure at the very least that all 5 balls in the back row are frozen in a line.

In addition, try using more English to give whitey the speed to get around 3 rails. I have been instructed to aim for a half-ball hit on the back right ball, use at least 2 tips of right and some follow as well. The swerve of the cue ball gives about a third ball hit on the back right ball; then the right hand English gives whitey a little boost around the table so you don't have to hit the ball as hard. Experiment with positioning and English so that you hit as little of the back right ball as possible and still get 2 balls to the rail, and still have whitey spin around 3 rails to the head rail (without scratching). Good luck; as I find that the proper break requires different stroke and speed on different tables.

P.S. - My personal opinion is that you still have to get a little lucky to keep your opponent from a shot; so practicing the lag is never a bad idea.

poolplayer2093
06-14-2007, 03:53 PM
man i like to go for broke when it comes to breaking them up. hit 'em harder. you should check out grady mathews key balls and break shots that helped me shoot the right break shot for the angle i had

3andstop
06-14-2007, 04:32 PM
I couldn't agree more with Steve. That last row absolutely needs to be straight and tight.

I find that if they are, and I really concentrate on cleanly playing the billiard hit to the bottom rail with the english EXACTLY as explained by Williebetmore, the other ball comes out and returns nicely on its own.

Try devoting your concentration on seeing that carom happen with spin on the CB and if it doesn't come out perfectly, you should double up the incoming players shot down the long rail quite often.

SpiderWebComm
06-15-2007, 05:22 AM
SWC,
Several of my mentors have echoed what Steve Lipsky has said; make sure at the very least that all 5 balls in the back row are frozen in a line.

In addition, try using more English to give whitey the speed to get around 3 rails. I have been instructed to aim for a half-ball hit on the back right ball, use at least 2 tips of right and some follow as well. The swerve of the cue ball gives about a third ball hit on the back right ball; then the right hand English gives whitey a little boost around the table so you don't have to hit the ball as hard. Experiment with positioning and English so that you hit as little of the back right ball as possible and still get 2 balls to the rail, and still have whitey spin around 3 rails to the head rail (without scratching). Good luck; as I find that the proper break requires different stroke and speed on different tables.

P.S. - My personal opinion is that you still have to get a little lucky to keep your opponent from a shot; so practicing the lag is never a bad idea.

I think I hit less than 1/3 of the ball, with a little less english-- which is prob my problem, based on your description. Now I can't wait for my work day to end so I can go practice.

Thanks Don and Steve-

Dave

12squared
06-18-2007, 11:52 PM
SWC,
Several of my mentors have echoed what Steve Lipsky has said; make sure at the very least that all 5 balls in the back row are frozen in a line.

In addition, try using more English to give whitey the speed to get around 3 rails. I have been instructed to aim for a half-ball hit on the back right ball, use at least 2 tips of right and some follow as well. The swerve of the cue ball gives about a third ball hit on the back right ball; then the right hand English gives whitey a little boost around the table so you don't have to hit the ball as hard. Experiment with positioning and English so that you hit as little of the back right ball as possible and still get 2 balls to the rail, and still have whitey spin around 3 rails to the head rail (without scratching). Good luck; as I find that the proper break requires different stroke and speed on different tables.

P.S. - My personal opinion is that you still have to get a little lucky to keep your opponent from a shot; so practicing the lag is never a bad idea.

Where are you placing the cue ball to start the break shot you described above?

Williebetmore
06-19-2007, 05:46 AM
Where are you placing the cue ball to start the break shot you described above?

144,
Cue ball on the head string, one diamond away from the long rail. You need to adjust this slightly, depending on table conditions. You want the angle that will give you the thinnest hit possible on the corner ball, that will still give whitey enough angle to avoid scratching back into the head rail corner pocket (in other words; if you are using plenty of spin, and still scratching back into the head corner pocket, then move whitey slightly further away from the rail). Many tables will give good results with whitey just slightly more than one diamond away from the rail.

Irish634
06-19-2007, 07:14 AM
144,
Cue ball on the head string, one diamond away from the long rail. You need to adjust this slightly, depending on table conditions. You want the angle that will give you the thinnest hit possible on the corner ball, that will still give whitey enough angle to avoid scratching back into the head rail corner pocket (in other words; if you are using plenty of spin, and still scratching back into the head corner pocket, then move whitey slightly further away from the rail). Many tables will give good results with whitey just slightly more than one diamond away from the rail.


Something like this is what I presume Willie is describing:
http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AFCf4BCYB3CCpA4DCYe3EFbe3FCxe4GBKP3HAMB3IAUe3JA LV4KDnP3LBjP3MEMO4NBJl3OBal2PNqW4UFCf4UbAj3YFSe3YF Ej3YFEj2kNqW3kHWe3kRdl3kbaq1kbaF1kOSl1kOSl2uBGN@

I edited this to correct the picture.... so don't knock Wilie LOL.

Williebetmore
06-19-2007, 08:37 AM
Something like this is what I presume Willie is describing:


Irish,
No. Whitey should be travelling 3 rails, hitting the lower long rail in your table, to the left of the corner pocket; then ideally coming to rest on the bottom short rail. MORE SPIN.

One advantage of moving whitey slightly further away from the rail is that it will hit a bit closer to your upper left corner pocket (in your diagram), you can use a bit more speed because of the thinner hit on the 5. This allows whitey to go 3 rails and possibly even end on the bottom rail (4th rail). The advantage is that the fourth rail takes almost all of the speed off the ball, whitey will never be very far off that head rail, and your opponent will always be shooting a difficult "off the rail" shot.

I'll diagram it in a bit and post it.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AFCe4BCYB3CCpA4DCYe3EFjd3FCxe4GBKP3HAMB3IAUe3JA TV4KDnP3LBjP3MEMO4NBJl3OBal2PKoW2kKoW3kHnS3kSKj3kb Jo1kbaa1kSCk1kRlm2uBnQ@

Irish634
06-19-2007, 08:43 AM
Irish,
No. Whitey should be travelling 3 rails, hitting the lower long rail in your table, to the left of the corner pocket; then ideally coming to rest on the bottom short rail. MORE SPIN.

One advantage of moving whitey slightly further away from the rail is that it will hit a bit closer to your upper left corner pocket (in your diagram), you can use a bit more speed because of the thinner hit on the 5. This allows whitey to go 3 rails and possibly even end on the bottom rail (4th rail). The advantage is that the fourth rail takes almost all of the speed off the ball, whitey will never be very far off that head rail, and your opponent will always be shooting a difficult "off the rail" shot.

I'll diagram it in a bit and post it.

I think I got it above.

Williebetmore
06-19-2007, 08:50 AM
I think I got it above.

Irish,
Yes, that's the idea. Always take note of where whitey hits the foot rail, you may want to experiment with trying to hit the foot rail higher towards that upper left corner pocket, to make the scratch in the bottom right corner less likely.

Of course, since you changed your initial diagram, people will think I am criticizing a proper, "classical" break shot...and my name will be mud (which is still better than "breakup" I guess).

P.S. - If you just try 4 or 5 breaks on a new table it is usually very easy to find the ideal breaking position and speed. If you play against world class players it becomes VERY important; if your competition is less than that, it is not that big of a deal.

Irish634
06-19-2007, 08:53 AM
Of course, since you changed your initial diagram, people will think I am criticizing a proper, "classical" break shot...and my name will be mud (which is still better than "breakup" I guess).


LOL... Willie is correct, I changed the original diagram... I have noted in the post that I changed it. So don't be too hard on him! :D

12squared
06-19-2007, 10:53 AM
144,
Cue ball on the head string, one diamond away from the long rail. You need to adjust this slightly, depending on table conditions. You want the angle that will give you the thinnest hit possible on the corner ball, that will still give whitey enough angle to avoid scratching back into the head rail corner pocket (in other words; if you are using plenty of spin, and still scratching back into the head corner pocket, then move whitey slightly further away from the rail). Many tables will give good results with whitey just slightly more than one diamond away from the rail.

Thank you sir. Even though we met briefly at DCC, I don't feel you know me well enough to shorten my name "144" :p :D. It's "12squared" to you...oh what the heck, you can call me whatever you want.

Dave

Williebetmore
06-19-2007, 11:26 AM
Thank you sir. Even though we met briefly at DCC, I don't feel you know me well enough to shorten my name "144" :p :D. It's "12squared" to you...oh what the heck, you can call me whatever you want.

Dave

D,
You are correct, I was being overly familiar. Perhaps I should just have referred to you as "Mr. Gross."

Steve Lipsky
06-19-2007, 12:13 PM
I think I hit less than 1/3 of the ball, with a little less english-- which is prob my problem, based on your description. Now I can't wait for my work day to end so I can go practice.

Thanks Don and Steve-

Dave

Dave, have you tried the various techniques? Have you been hitting the break better?

Mike_Mason
06-19-2007, 10:29 PM
I don't know why your cue ball is going near a corner pocket on the break...and it could be either one???...sounds dangerous...

Imo an object ball should travel to the side rail and back where it came from...and another object ball should travel to the back rail and back where it came from...leaving the rack the way it was before the legal hit.

The cue ball imo should travel two rails to end near the middle diamond on the top rail...

Good luck...

Mike

selftaut
06-20-2007, 04:41 AM
I don't know why your cue ball is going near a corner pocket on the break...and it could be either one???...sounds dangerous...

Imo an object ball should travel to the side rail and back where it came from...and another object ball should travel to the back rail and back where it came from...leaving the rack the way it was before the legal hit.

The cue ball imo should travel two rails to end near the middle diamond on the top rail...

Good luck...

Mike

I have never had any good player play that break to leave me in the middle of the rail , that leaves good angles to either pocket if there is something sticking out , so I am going to have to disagree with that break, if right handed the best shot is 3 rails back to the left corner and hopefully sticking the opponent to bridge over the corner of the pocket and/or frozen to the rail.

but maybe that break is good for some players, what the hey do I know.

CreeDo
06-20-2007, 09:54 AM
The other day I really nailed the break shot and I was pretty happy... I think I discovered something. Tell me if I'm on the right track or not. In the past I always placed the CB parallel with the diamond, halfway between the head spot and the rail. But I find I sell out less if I move it in a bit towards the spot, so that it's about parallel with the corner ball. What often happens then is that the that ball that goes to the side rail goes over-and-back nicely into the rack, while the ball that goes to the foot rail doesn't quite make it back up to the rack, but if you park the CB correctly it's hidden anyway.

In the past when I broke from the traditional position it was like I'm hitting that ball fatter and somehow getting more unwanted action out of the other balls, while the thinner hit only moves the 2 corner balls and nothing else. I also sold out the foot-rail ball a lot because it wants to bank away from the rack a bit no matter what I do, and it often ended up about even with the 3rd row of ball instead of going back in. So playing to just reach the rail with it means that even if it moves sideways away from the rack a bit, it's still not going up high enough to be shootable.

Or am I drunk and mostly it's my specific table that makes all of this work (and makes a normal break not work)?

selftaut
06-20-2007, 10:00 AM
The other day I really nailed the break shot and I was pretty happy... I think I discovered something. Tell me if I'm on the right track or not. In the past I always placed the CB parallel with the diamond, halfway between the head spot and the rail. But I find I sell out less if I move it in a bit towards the spot, so that it's about parallel with the corner ball. What often happens then is that the that ball that goes to the side rail goes over-and-back nicely into the rack, while the ball that goes to the foot rail doesn't quite make it back up to the rack, but if you park the CB correctly it's hidden anyway.

In the past when I broke from the traditional position it was like I'm hitting that ball fatter and somehow getting more unwanted action out of the other balls, while the thinner hit only moves the 2 corner balls and nothing else. I also sold out the foot-rail ball a lot because it wants to bank away from the rack a bit no matter what I do, and it often ended up about even with the 3rd row of ball instead of going back in. So playing to just reach the rail with it means that even if it moves sideways away from the rack a bit, it's still not going up high enough to be shootable.

Or am I drunk and mostly it's my specific table that makes all of this work (and makes a normal break not work)?

you were drunk before , now sobered up :) j/k thats the shot I like too Mr.Do

SpiderWebComm
06-21-2007, 05:00 AM
Dave, have you tried the various techniques? Have you been hitting the break better?

Steve:

Thanks for the follow-up. Actually, much better. Here's what I found out:

My club uses plastic hard-racks (even though I bought new Diamond racks for them - go figure) and when they're racked "tightly" - they're really not. There are two small gaps in the back row.

When I really focused and took the time to make sure all of the balls were tight, wow-- what a difference. I received the action I was looking for. I think I may have been hitting the corner ball a little too thin as well, so Don's post helped me as well.

This is definitely my favorite forum on AZ, without a doubt. If you ever come through Central PA, let me know. My club is almost exclusively straight pool players - we'd love to have you come in sometime to run-over us and give us a clinic.


Thanks for the follow-up!

Dave