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View Full Version : Can you jump in 14.1


Realizm
07-17-2007, 07:08 AM
And if so can you use a jump cue?

selftaut
07-17-2007, 07:17 AM
Most tournaments allow jumping, but no jump cues, must use your playing cue.

xXHustlaXx
07-17-2007, 08:41 AM
Why do they produce jump sticks if tournaments wont let you use them???

NYC cue dude
07-17-2007, 08:46 AM
yes, jump cues are allowed, despite what the purists will tell you. I was suprised to see that hudji see used his during the finals. I immediately spoke with the tournament director and got the info that pre tournament, they confirmed with the wpa that jump sticks were allowed.

BANKONIT
07-17-2007, 11:52 AM
Thorsten Jumped One In From In Front Of A Side Pocket Over A Ball To A 6 Ball In Front Of An Opposite Corner Pocket And The Q Ball Somehow Found It's Way Back Into The Side Pocket He Just Jumped From. Jumped With His Playing Que.

NYC cue dude
07-17-2007, 12:17 PM
sorry, you are thinking about the shot john schmidt took against Harriman in the quarter final match. Thorsten attempted his own jump, also missed, but didnt scratch.

SpiderWebComm
07-17-2007, 01:13 PM
sorry, you are thinking about the shot john schmidt took against Harriman in the quarter final match. Thorsten attempted his own jump, also missed, but didnt scratch.

In case no one thanked you for sponsoring the event.... "THANKS."

Not many people put up their private cash for the entertainment of others. BANKONIT and I had a great time. Without you there wouldn't be an event.

Same goes for the gentleman who put up the cash (silently) for the high run prize. He didn't even want to be recognized! It's like that movie "Pass it Forward" --- makes me want to do stuff like that from your example.

"thanks"
Dave

NYC cue dude
07-17-2007, 01:19 PM
ultimately, he couldnt resist the recognition, and "Chicago" dave stepped forward, as he should have!

Glad u enjoyed the event, did we meet?

sjm
07-17-2007, 02:41 PM
I must admit that at the onset of the final on Saturday, I wasn't really rooting for either player. That is, until See took out his jump cue, at which time I instantly became an Ortmann fan. I was absolutely delighted when See missed the very next shot, and glad that he lost.

In the qualifier I played in, everyone pretty much agreed that jump cues and straight pool had little to do with each other, and the use of jump cues was barred by popular demand.

Speaking for myself, I feel that if somebody breaks Mosconi's high run record having used a jump cue even once, the run should not go into the record books. If you butcher the shape to the point that you have no shot with your regular playing cue, you return to the chair. That's the way it always was and the way it ought to be.

For the record, as Schmidt's jump in the quarterfinal against Harriman was executed with a full cue, it was fine by me.

Steve Lipsky
07-17-2007, 03:09 PM
I must admit that at the onset of the final on Saturday, I wasn't really rooting for either player. That is, until See took out his jump cue, at which time I instantly became an Ortmann fan. I was absolutely delighted when See missed the very next shot, and glad that he lost.

In the qualifier I played in, everyone pretty much agreed that jump cues and straight pool had little to do with each other, and the use of jump cues was barred by popular demand.

Speaking for myself, I feel that if somebody breaks Mosconi's high run record having used a jump cue even once, the run should not go into the record books. If you butcher the shape to the point that you have no shot with your regular playing cue, you return to the chair. That's the way it always was and the way it ought to be.

For the record, as Schmidt's jump in the quarterfinal against Harriman was executed with a full cue, it was fine by me.

This might be the most perfect post I have ever seen on AZB.

- Steve

Jimmy M.
07-17-2007, 04:41 PM
This might be the most perfect post I have ever seen on AZB.

- Steve

And here I thought that, somewhere among my plethora of posts, I had to have written the most perfect post on AZB. Oh well. Maybe I did and you just didn't read it. Sorry, SJM, but I have to take credit where ... err ... where I have no justification for taking credit?

NYC cue dude
07-17-2007, 07:12 PM
I agree, stu, that our personal feelings are the same when it comes to jump cues in 14.1. In fact, I was shocked to learn this year that they were legal after denying players the ability to use them at last years event. (ooops).

There were 5 or 6 balls jumped this year. Only See used a jump cue. Also, only See and Thorsten's jumps came as the shot directly following the breakshot after both players got stuck in the pack. The others were more of the butchered position variety.
Rg

blackeee
07-17-2007, 08:36 PM
I handle a jump cue pretty well, but I refuse to let them be used in any tournament of mine.

xXHustlaXx
07-18-2007, 04:45 AM
What's the difference if someone uses a jump stick or not... Jumping a ball is not by any means easy!! It's very difficult to control the cue and if you make the slightest error, you'll miss. At their level you all know what happens when someone generally misses, they ussaully leave it wide open for the opponent to run... Jumping in Straight Pool especially is very dangerous. If someone does it Jump Stick or Not, and if they make it, kudos. If they dont then it's whatever. It's their game, let them play it however they feel like. Get to their level and then ***** about jump sticks, until then the only thing you are doing is Side Line Chatter.....

3andstop
07-18-2007, 05:05 AM
What's the difference if someone uses a jump stick or not...

Jumping a ball is not by any means easy!! If someone does it Jump Stick or Not, and if they make it, kudos. If they dont then it's whatever.

It's their game, let them play it however they feel like.


You're right. In fact I just got through gluing a new tip on my Stanley Roofing Hammer, I put some Irish Linen wrap on the handle where the rubber grip was and let me tell you ... can I get some great jump action with that sucker. Thats how I feel like doing it!.

I'm still working on leather tipped Dear Slugs for my 12 gage .. I'll let ya know how it works out.

gulfportdoc
07-18-2007, 06:18 AM
In the qualifier I played in, everyone pretty much agreed that jump cues and straight pool had little to do with each other, and the use of jump cues was barred by popular demand.


I agree. Pool was meant to be played in two dimensions, not three. IMO jump shots ought not to be permitted in any type of pool tournament.

Doc

Blackjack
07-18-2007, 09:08 AM
I agree. Pool was meant to be played in two dimensions, not three. IMO jump shots ought not to be permitted in any type of pool tournament.

Doc

I have been playing for most of my life and I have never executed a jump shot while playing the game of 14.1 Continuous.

Never.

Using a jump cue in 9 ball is another story.

Snoogi
07-18-2007, 10:21 AM
I tend to agree that jump shots are my last resort mostly for 9ball, makes me lazy to think. And so far me never jump in straight pool before..

lockwood
07-18-2007, 01:28 PM
Are jumps or jump cues allowed in the DCC One pocket event?
JS

Fragged
07-18-2007, 01:43 PM
I have been playing for most of my life and I have never executed a jump shot while playing the game of 14.1 Continuous.

Never.

Using a jump cue in 9 ball is another story.


>
>> I must agree. 3 cushion is another story too. I use one once or twice in the majority of my 3C matches.

3andstop
07-18-2007, 04:58 PM
The only jump shot in straight pool, that at least for me is a viable shot but is still much less than a common occurrence, but not unusual, happens mostly on a secondary break with a slighter angle into the stack than you would like when you are close to the object ball. Elevating the stick to cause the cue ball to hop up into the center of the stack and kind of mushroom them open from the middle.

But, thats really a different thing I suppose.

Realizm
07-18-2007, 05:31 PM
The only jump shot in straight pool, that at least for me is a viable shot but is still much less than a common occurrence, but not unusual, happens mostly on a secondary break with a slighter angle into the stack than you would like when you are close to the object ball. Elevating the stick to cause the cue ball to hop up into the center of the stack and kind of mushroom them open from the middle.

But, thats really a different thing I suppose.

Dam i truelly strated a goo Thing here didn't I .
I jump over a ball today with another ball .to make it go in the pocket .Without a jump q. i gues that was good cause i won by that one shot ,Thanks guys...

xXHustlaXx
07-19-2007, 04:20 AM
I agree. Pool was meant to be played in two dimensions, not three. IMO jump shots ought not to be permitted in any type of pool tournament.

Doc

Doc,
Why do you feel this is necessary?? Jump shots are awesome...... You either

A: can't jump very good.
B: play safe a lot and the people you're playing jump out of them.
C: just living in the past and don't want to keep up with the rest of us.

Let's face it... Straight pool is just like any other pocket billiard game played on a pool table. If you see a shot to jump, JUMP IT!!! If you dont want someone jumping shots on you, here is a hint

PLAY SAFE BETTER

The closer you put the cue ball to another ball, the less chance someone has to jump...

3andstop
07-19-2007, 05:57 AM
Consider this. What would you think of a device such as a laser aiming aid attached to your stick, or even hand held for example that you can take out and judge angles with.

Or what about placing a mirror on the rail to help determine bank lines.

I believe the point is, to play the game with the stick you are using.

If 9 ball didn't reduce the beauty of the game of pool to what it has, and if a generation of players hadn't come and gone without even knowing the beauty of real pool, these jump shot sticks wouldn't even be an issue.

xXHustlaXx
07-19-2007, 08:07 AM
Consider this. What would you think of a device such as a laser aiming aid attached to your stick, or even hand held for example that you can take out and judge angles with.

Or what about placing a mirror on the rail to help determine bank lines.

I believe the point is, to play the game with the stick you are using.

If 9 ball didn't reduce the beauty of the game of pool to what it has, and if a generation of players hadn't come and gone without even knowing the beauty of real pool, these jump shot sticks wouldn't even be an issue.

You talk as if a jump stick is cheating...... It's not easy to execute an accurate jump shot, regular or jump cue. When you jump a ball you are trying to either prevent from fouling, make a ball, or both. Most of the time you are just trying to prevent a foul and if it goes in, it goes in. It's not a training tool to help you make shots, you actually have to know how to jump and practice if you plan to be consistent. Try this for example set up a full 9ft table length shot and execute it 30 times.

>>>I BET YOU MISS MORE THAN YOU MAKE<<<

Then after that try and set up the same shot and make it 30 times while playing position on another ball.... See how many times you can do it. Once you've done that, come back on here and tell me whether you think jump cues should be used in tournaments or not.

Jump shots are very inconsistent and very hard to be accurate with position afterwards.

Steve Lipsky
07-19-2007, 08:23 AM
Hustla,

It seems most of your defense of the jump cue has more to do with 9-ball than with straight pool.

Most of the times it will be used in straight pool is if a ball is hanging near a pocket which you can't see. Often it will be an insurance ball you kept after a secondary break shot, but your execution was poor, leaving you no direct shot at it. The jump cue, therefore, is merely getting you out of trouble which you got yourself into.

You talk about jumping and the difficulty in playing position, but again, this is 14.1, not 9-ball. Almost certainly you don't even have to play great position off the jump, because you might have 6 or 7 shots to choose from afterwards. You are not playing position on just one ball.

It's not about playing safe better, as you mentioned to another poster. Many times, it's better to leave someone safe in 14.1 away from the rack, not directly stuck on it. If you leave someone stuck on the rack, he very often has an easy return safe.

- Steve

Blackjack
07-19-2007, 08:47 AM
You talk as if a jump stick is cheating...... It's not easy to execute an accurate jump shot, regular or jump cue. When you jump a ball you are trying to either prevent from fouling, make a ball, or both. Most of the time you are just trying to prevent a foul and if it goes in, it goes in. It's not a training tool to help you make shots, you actually have to know how to jump and practice if you plan to be consistent. Try this for example set up a full 9ft table length shot and execute it 30 times.

>>>I BET YOU MISS MORE THAN YOU MAKE<<<

Then after that try and set up the same shot and make it 30 times while playing position on another ball.... See how many times you can do it. Once you've done that, come back on here and tell me whether you think jump cues should be used in tournaments or not.

Jump shots are very inconsistent and very hard to be accurate with position afterwards.

Jump shots historically have never been a part of straight pool. Period.

As a 9 ball player I can jump with the best of them - WITHOUT a phenolic tip - never had one - never will - won't ever need one - don't want one - and I don't miss more than I make, trust me on that.

Jump shots are still "new" to pool. In the past, there was no jumping in straight pool at all. Recently they have begun to allow jump shots - but in the past it wasn't even part of the game - nor was the shot acceptable under any circumstances. I have never even attempted a jump shot in straight pool, and I have a couple of 200+ runs to my credit and I have been playing the game for 30+ years. That leads me to believe that you don't need to jump if you're playing the correct shots and the correct patterns - so I practice that instead.

xXHustlaXx
07-19-2007, 09:57 AM
I have a couple of 200+ runs to my credit and I have been playing the game for 30+ years. That leads me to believe that you don't need to jump if you're playing the correct shots and the correct patterns - so I practice that instead.


I will be moving to Miami soon, on my way I should stop in where you are and you can show me these bada$$ skills of yours. I'll even pay to see you run a 200+ and if you can't do it you pay me. 3 to 1 odds... Whatever amount doesn't matter.

Blackjack
07-19-2007, 10:23 AM
I will be moving to Miami soon, on my way I should stop in where you are and you can show me these bada$$ skills of yours. I'll even pay to see you run a 200+ and if you can't do it you pay me. 3 to 1 odds... Whatever amount doesn't matter.

Great. I'm not hard to find. I never promised you I could run a 200 on command, but I will play you whatever you want to play.

Now, quit trolling our peaceful straight pool forum before you end up in FastLarryland with all of the other idiots.

Pushout
07-20-2007, 01:26 PM
Great. I'm not hard to find. I never promised you I could run a 200 on command, but I will play you whatever you want to play.

Now, quit trolling our peaceful straight pool forum before you end up in FastLarryland with all of the other idiots.

Well said, David!!

3andstop
07-20-2007, 04:12 PM
the only reason a new generation even plays pool at all is because of 9ball.
don't get me wrong, I love all pool games, 1-P first, then 9ball, straight, 8-ball, but without 9ball, IMO pool would be dead.


I understand your point of view Ray, but from mine, it's already dead. :(

JoeW
07-20-2007, 04:32 PM
Seems to me that the purist have a logical consistency problem here.

1. A masse shot often leaves the table and it may be intentional.

2. A power break from below center makes the cue ball float or leave the table. This often happens when forcing a draw shot.

3. Force follow will make the cue ball jump up and down as it goes down table.

4. When a jump shot is executed it is usually obvious but it does not have to be obvious to clear a small portion of an interfering ball.

If all of these shots are legal then why should one not be able to intentionally jump with the cue ball.

Just because old timers did not do it and ruled out intentional jumps all of the other shots were used were they not?

I am neither pro or con jump shots. I just see a logical problem here.

jwpretd
07-21-2007, 12:56 AM
Seems to me that the purist have a logical consistency problem here.... I am neither pro or con jump shots. I just see a logical problem here.
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.

With thanks to Mr. Emerson :)

Blackjack
07-21-2007, 07:13 AM
Just because old timers did not do it and ruled out intentional jumps all of the other shots were used were they not?

I am neither pro or con jump shots. I just see a logical problem here.

Joe,

You make great points, but I look at it like this - I grew up in New Jersey learning to play this game by watching Mizerak, Murphy, Colavita, and at times Mosconi. When I read your post last night, the first thought that came to mind was ... how would Willie have reacted if I elevated my cue and jumped over the stack to make a ball hanging in the pocket... then I tried to imagine the look that he would have had on his face. It wasn't pretty.

I ran that same scenario through my mind and I just changed the legend that was sitting in the chair. In my imaginary situations, the Miz got out of his chair, looked at me, then the table - his eyes shifting back to the cue ball and that back to me with this confused grin on his face. He then said... "what the hell are you doing?" lol. Colavita basically did the same thing and then he grabbed the cue ball. Murphy laughed his ass off at me, and I pictured Willie getting pissed off and actually calling me an A-hole. IMO, that's pretty close to what would have happened in reality in all 4 cases.

Purist? Perhaps so. However, I would never want to embarrass myself like that with those ghosts watching over my shoulder. As crazy as it may seem, that's how my logic works in this situation.

JoeW
07-21-2007, 07:45 AM
Jwpretd?s quote is good and to assist with Blackjack's position allow me another quote.

"You say I contradict myself, I am big enough to encompass contradiction."

Walt Whitman.

tjlmbklr
08-02-2007, 12:46 PM
Interesting to know. Even thogh I own a jump cue and love to use it, I think a combo is easier then a jump anyday. Unless of course it's a multi ball combo.

do mean to offend, I am mearly a 14:1 newbie!

CreeDo
08-03-2007, 04:42 PM
People seem to feel that a player who misses shape deserves to be screwed and shouldn't be allowed to shoot his way out of it. Yet NO run of hundreds of balls (to my knowledge) happened without missed shape and difficult shots. Why is the guy who banks his way out of trouble to continue the run a hero and the guy who jumps out of trouble a villain?

I don't get these complaints that the shot is too easy. Easy shots are the backbone of straight pool. They're supposed to be easy. I guess some feel that it rewards sloppy players, or whatever... but you don't run lots of balls being sloppy. Who cares if (and this is a generous estimate) a player has to get out of jail with the jump cue about 1 out of 50 shots? We ALL have to get out of jail using varying degrees of trick shooting once in a while.

If someone runs 550-600 and uses trick shots with the jump cue to boot, I promise you they're as good at straight pool as mosconi, and they can do something he maybe couldn't.

arsenius
08-24-2007, 03:28 AM
Joe,

You make great points, but I look at it like this - I grew up in New Jersey learning to play this game by watching Mizerak, Murphy, Colavita, and at times Mosconi. When I read your post last night, the first thought that came to mind was ... how would Willie have reacted if I elevated my cue and jumped over the stack to make a ball hanging in the pocket... then I tried to imagine the look that he would have had on his face. It wasn't pretty.

I ran that same scenario through my mind and I just changed the legend that was sitting in the chair. In my imaginary situations, the Miz got out of his chair, looked at me, then the table - his eyes shifting back to the cue ball and that back to me with this confused grin on his face. He then said... "what the hell are you doing?" lol. Colavita basically did the same thing and then he grabbed the cue ball. Murphy laughed his ass off at me, and I pictured Willie getting pissed off and actually calling me an A-hole. IMO, that's pretty close to what would have happened in reality in all 4 cases.

Purist? Perhaps so. However, I would never want to embarrass myself like that with those ghosts watching over my shoulder. As crazy as it may seem, that's how my logic works in this situation.

I have video of the Miz using a jump cue (I think after the break, but I really don't remember off hand). I think the video is from the late 80s, early 90s (again not sure). He was playing an unknown (to me). The commentators were pretty shocked, but he did make the ball.

I don't know if you were only talking about jumping the pack, or jumping anything. I think he just jumped one or two balls in this case, not the pack.

I'm glad to hear you have some idea of where your logic comes from though.:)

JimS
08-24-2007, 05:11 AM
Straight pool is a game for pure pool skills. The use of a jump cue just seems wrong. I can't justify my feelings about it. It just seems wrong. I think if I were watching a straight pool match, or playing in one, and a player pulled out the jump stick I'd just leave.... unscrew and split. It would be enough to make me not go out anymore and limit my play to my house. Some things shouldn't change. Can't say why. They just shouldn't.

Blackjack
08-24-2007, 05:57 AM
I have video of the Miz using a jump cue (I think after the break, but I really don't remember off hand). I think the video is from the late 80s, early 90s (again not sure). He was playing an unknown (to me). The commentators were pretty shocked, but he did make the ball.

I don't know if you were only talking about jumping the pack, or jumping anything. I think he just jumped one or two balls in this case, not the pack.

I'm glad to hear you have some idea of where your logic comes from though.:)

Was it straight pool or 9 ball? I have never heard of Mizerak performing a jump shot in straight pool. Steve was one of the guys that wanted jump cues out of the PBT and I remember Steve was very vocal about it. Allen Hopkins put it up for a vote - and believe it or not - THE PLAYERS voted jump cues out. So they were not legal on the pro tour for a while - as a direct result of players like Steve saying that the jump cues had gotten ridiculous(this was in 1992-1993 time frame). Some of the contraptions that people were coming up with were getting out of hand, and I think the players made the right choice to limit jump shots to using your playing cue. I'm not doubting what you are saying, I'm just not sure because you didn't specify if Mizerak was playing 9 ball or 14.1 when he pulled out the jump cue. If he was playing 14.1, I'm shocked - and many others would be shocked also.

3andstop
08-24-2007, 06:46 AM
I have that accustat tape .. it is straight pool :) Side pocket shot if I'm not mistaken and recall correctly. Main Event perhaps playing Leski?

Realizm
08-27-2007, 01:17 PM
I have that accustat tape .. it is straight pool :) Side pocket shot if I'm not mistaken and recall correctly. Main Event perhaps playing Leski?


Ok after reading all of this .
I was told yes" you can jump in 14.1 but it has to be with the cue your playing with.
But the man that told me this all he plays is 14.1 and he stated all good plays never have to jump .

PoolSharkAllen
08-27-2007, 09:00 PM
Speaking for myself, I feel that if somebody breaks Mosconi's high run record having used a jump cue even once, the run should not go into the record books. If you butcher the shape to the point that you have no shot with your regular playing cue, you return to the chair. That's the way it always was and the way it ought to be.

For the record, as Schmidt's jump in the quarterfinal against Harriman was executed with a full cue, it was fine by me.
In following your logic, if Schmidt butchered his shape so that he has no shot with his regular playing cue, shouldn't he return to his chair? Why is it fine by you if someone (Schmidt) jumps with a full cue but not fine with you if they jump with a jump cue?

Shouldn't jumping be forbidden in 14.1 as a matter of principle, rather than whether they jump with a jump cue or a regular playing cue?

dave sutton
08-27-2007, 10:49 PM
a friend of mine always jump balls in straight pool. i think its funny to see. i said once "mosconi is spinning in his grave right now"

i dont think it should be banned. afterall it is a legal shot. i play break shots off the back rail and jump the qball into the pack. thats legal. pros play that shot also

the only tour that banned a jump cueand phenolic tips is IPT. and look how that turned out.(unless there is one i dont know of)

jose garcia who high run is 360 some balls( in match play not practice with a set up break shot) he never jumps and prob wont. i know allen hopkins pretty well and he said he barely jumps ever. only learned bc he had to