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Bob Jewett
08-07-2007, 11:02 AM
In another thread, I mentioned that a top player's goof related to the rules was due to inexperience with 14.1. I suppose that's not necessarily correct. Some players will play for years using the wrong rules because they have never bothered to learn what the rulebook actually has to say. Some possible examples:

At the 14.1 at Derby City in 2006, two top players made the same mistake at the end of a rack. Both of them seemed not to understand that if they just stopped the cue ball in the rack -- and they both happened to have in-the-rack stop shots for their key ball -- the cue ball would go behind the line and they would be certain to have long but otherwise perfect break shots.

In another forum (IIRC), someone was adamant that if the break ball was near the rack -- interfering with the wood but not the balls themselves -- you just marked its position, racked the balls, and then replaced the break ball.

In a recent league match, the end of the rack went badly, and my break ball was behind the line. I simply left the cue ball in the rack. How many of you know what happens in this situation? My opponent didn't, but he was sure that his knowledge of the rule was better than mine.

Can you list all of the possible cases of what happens at the end of the rack? Do you know which cases require use of the center spot? Do you know where the center spot is?

Back in the 1970's I ran into sort of the opposite of rules ignorance. The BCA for one or two years had a different rule for one of the end-of-the-rack situations. (The BCA had quite a history of meddling with the 14.1 rules for no particularly good reason.) Anyway, I happened to encounter the situation, and my opponent said, "No, you have to do such-and-such." He had brought his rule book as evidence. Fortunately the rule book was a couple of years old, the BCA had changed the rule back to the old way, and the room owner had a copy of the new rule book.

My own feeling is that anyone claiming to be a professional pool player ought to know the rules, but many don't.

3andstop
08-07-2007, 11:31 AM
Well, Bob, now that you mention changing rules and so on, I'm not sure what the procedure is with OB behind the headstring. Far as I play with CB in the rack and OB behind the line you spot the CB on the headspot and you can shoot any ball including the one behind the headstring. Has this changed?

JoeW
08-07-2007, 11:33 AM
Is this the official accepted rules where ever one might play. Especially with reference to the chart on page 52, Diagram 22.

Anon. (2005) Billiards:The official rules & records book. BCA: Colorado Springs, CO. ISBN 1-878493-15-9.

Thanks

While one could not publish the chart a list of the rules could probably be placed on the net -- right?

Bob Jewett
08-07-2007, 11:48 AM
... While one could not publish the chart a list of the rules could probably be placed on the net -- right?
I believe that the BCA and the WPA both have the rules on their web sites for ready reference, so it isn't necessary to list them elsewhere.

selftaut
08-07-2007, 12:12 PM
Here is another one that came into play last week, cue ball was in the rack on the 15th ball so its cue ball behind the line, the OB (breakball) was on the line at the headstring, I got called over to make the call on whether the base of the ball was over the line so the ball could be shot at with cue ball behind the line. I determined the base of the ball was over. Now , the player not shooting starts to argue that the ENTIRE ball has to be past the line and not just the base of the ball.

Whats your call?

Tom In Cincy
08-07-2007, 12:29 PM
Now , the player not shooting starts to argue that the ENTIRE ball has to be past the line and not just the base of the ball.

Whats your call?

I don't know of any published rules of pocket billiards that state 'the entire ball must be past the head string'

In all the rules I've seen published, it has always been BASE of the Ball.

But, then again, bar rules and old farts tend to make up rules as they go.

TheWizard
08-07-2007, 01:41 PM
Tom is right, it is in fact the BASE of the OB, that determins if it's over the line or not :)

I think that it is a wise thing that ALL players in a league, are give a copy of the rules of Straight Pool, to be able to refresh themselves on them, ok a good majority of players may not bother reading them, but on the other hand, it would be worth their while reading them, in order to be sure of what is the corect procedure in any given situation of play :)

Willie

selftaut
08-07-2007, 02:00 PM
Here is the moral of that story that fits into Bob's thread here, this guy that decided to argue my ruling is 60 years old and a lifetime pool player, also is the room owner where the league is held. He was totally sure that he was right and was red mad in the face when done losing his argument with me.

Bob Jewett
08-07-2007, 02:14 PM
Here is the moral of that story that fits into Bob's thread here, this guy that decided to argue my ruling is 60 years old and a lifetime pool player, also is the room owner where the league is held. He was totally sure that he was right and was red mad in the face when done losing his argument with me.
Seems to be the old ones that you always have to watch out for.

But in defense of the guy, I've played in at least one one-pocket tournament where the rule was the whole ball "because it was easier." Personally, I think it's easier to judge the center than the edge on a close ball.

sjm
08-07-2007, 03:41 PM
OK, at the risk of embarrassing myself, I'll take a shot at the end rack possibilities:

1. Cue ball in rack, last object ball not in the rack area and not in the kitchen

Cue ball in hand behind the headstring.

2. Cue ball in rack and last object ball in rack.

Rack all fifteen balls, cue ball in hand behihnd the headstring.

3. Cue ball in rack, last ball in the kitchen but not covering any of the headspot

Cue ball on the headspot, with the last object ball playable on the subsequent shot.

4. Cue ball in rack, last ball interferes with headspot.

Last ball moved midway between the two side pockets, cue ball onto headspot.

5. Final object ball pocketed as well as the ball played on final shot of previous rack.

Rack all 15 balls, cue ball in hand behind headstring, no point scored for the fifteenth ball of the previous rack.

6. Neither cue ball nor object ball in the rack area

Play it as it lies.

Tom In Cincy
08-07-2007, 03:51 PM
It's not just 14.1

Lots of weekly 9 ball tournaments are filled with Room Rules that cater to the older players.

Well established rooms that will have frequent local players will make sure these rules are 'standard'.

One rule that seems to be sticking around is the 'game doesn't start until the breaker hits the ONE ball. The get to hit the cue ball as many times as they need to, until that one ball moves.

14.1 rules are different from other rules. The 'frozen ball rule' is different from the General Rules for 'frozen ball'
The "what if table" is a little confusing to the first time reader.

I run my tournaments by World Standard Rules.. only because I have a copy that I use and is available to the players that might disagree and want to read it for themselves. (a humbling experience to some players)

I also have a copy of the Texas Express rules (for 8/9 and 1pkt)

Also a copy of the OnePocket.org One Pocket rules. These are better/well written rules that Texas Express or WSR/BCA.

Tom In Cincy
08-07-2007, 04:06 PM
OK, at the risk of embarrassing myself, I'll take a shot at the end rack possibilities:

1. Cue ball in rack, last object ball not in the rack area and not in the kitchen

Cue ball in hand behind the headstring.

2. Cue ball in rack and last object ball in rack.

Rack all fifteen balls, cue ball in hand behihnd the headstring.

3. Cue ball in rack, last ball in the kitchen but not covering any of the headspot

Cue ball on the headspot, with the last object ball playable on the subsequent shot.

4. Cue ball in rack, last ball interferes with headspot.

Last ball moved midway between the two side pockets, cue ball onto headspot.

5. Final object ball pocketed as well as the ball played on final shot of previous rack.

Rack all 15 balls, cue ball in hand behind headstring, no point scored for the fifteenth ball of the previous rack.

6. Neither cue ball nor object ball in the rack area

Play it as it lies.

I think you always get credit for making a ball, even if it is the 15th ball. I could be wrong.. wouldn't be the first time.



http://www.wpa-pool.com/images/141_rules.gif

sjm
08-07-2007, 04:34 PM
[QUOTE=Tom In Cincy]I think you always get credit for making a ball, even if it is the 15th ball. I could be wrong.. wouldn't be the first time.

Guess we'll need Bob to resolve that one, though anyone who knows the answer is asked to chime in.

3andstop
08-07-2007, 05:16 PM
disregard ... :)

TheWizard
08-07-2007, 06:14 PM
You're right on the money again Tom :),


The ruling is in Straight Pool for making the 15th ball is as follows.

"A legally pocketed ball entitles a shooter to continue at the table until he fails to legally pocket a called ball on a shot. A player may shoot any ball, but before the shot, must designate the called ball and called pocket. Details such as kisses, caroms, combinations or cushions (all of which are legal) need not be indicated. Any additionally pocketed ball(s) on a legal stroke is scored as one point for the shooter."

As far as I'm aware, this confirms that you do get the extra point, if you make the BB (Break Ball) as well as the point for maing the KB (Key Ball)

I hope that this is of some help :)

Willie

P.S. Do you guys think that it would be worth while asking about the possibility of adding a Straight Pool section on the onepocket.org website, and come up a more fine tuned and solid set of rules for straight pool, that can be accepted by both the BCA and the WPA? :)

Tom In Cincy
08-08-2007, 08:23 AM
P.S. Do you guys think that it would be worth while asking about the possibility of adding a Straight Pool section on the onepocket.org website, and come up a more fine tuned and solid set of rules for straight pool, that can be accepted by both the BCA and the WPA? :)

Worth a shot. contact Steve Booth on the onepocket.org site and ask him.

Bob Jewett
08-08-2007, 10:31 AM
... P.S. Do you guys think that it would be worth while asking about the possibility of adding a Straight Pool section on the onepocket.org website, and come up a more fine tuned and solid set of rules for straight pool, that can be accepted by both the BCA and the WPA? :)
As far as the WPA (and the BCA which must follow the WPA decisions) the answer is probably not. The WPA rules are currently under review and revision, and are to be voted on at the next WPA General Assembly (which I think is at the WPC 9-ball in Manila in November, but I'm not certain.) Those rules are supposed to remain in effect without modification for 5 years.

I'll try to post the current proposed draft for 14.1.

Bob Jewett
08-08-2007, 10:33 AM
[QUOTE=Tom In Cincy] ... Guess we'll need Bob to resolve that one, though anyone who knows the answer is asked to chime in.
If you make your break ball (by accident?) with the key ball, they both count. This makes it possible but unlikely to run 150 in 10 racks.

Blackjack
08-08-2007, 01:12 PM
If you make your break ball (by accident?) with the key ball, they both count. This makes it possible but unlikely to run 150 in 10 racks.



LOL just thinking about somebody trying to do that! (or Fast Larry laying claim to that record too!)

Bob Jewett
08-08-2007, 03:19 PM
LOL just thinking about somebody trying to do that (make 150 points in 10 racks of 14.1)! (or Fast Larry laying claim to that record too!)
My money is on Corey Deuel to do it first. Of course the easy part is to make a ball from a full rack. It's arranging for a hung ball towards the end of the rack that's a challenge.