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Ant812
08-10-2007, 10:48 AM
where do you guys place the cue ball and break ball at the start of the game. not sure if im playing correctly but i start with ball in hand and place the break ball wherever i want. if that is correct i figure the first rack should be the easiest. once in a while i get some good seperation but usually i end up breaking up clusters as i go.

3andstop
08-10-2007, 11:57 AM
If you are talking about playing some practice racks, then what you are doing if fine.

If you are talking about a real game of straight pool, all 15 balls are racked and you must break to either a called shot or a safe shot in which at least 2 object balls and the cue ball (after contact) hits a rail. The cue ball is placed anywhere behind the headstring to do this.

Most commonly, on the line about two diamonds out , measured from the back rail, aim to hit either side outter ball on the last row with outside english and above center. The object is to have the ball you hit go to the bottom rail and back into the stack, and the other end ball in the last row to go straight out to the side rail and back. All this while the cue ball travels 3 or 4 rails to the opposite upper corner and rests on the headrail.

Ant812
08-10-2007, 12:31 PM
thanks for the info, i always thought the opening break was racked like the rest of the racks with the head ball out, but that ball placed anywhere on the table and taking cue ball in hand.
so is it normal to play safe on this shot? or to call a ball from the rack?

selftaut
08-10-2007, 12:56 PM
In a real game all 15 balls are racked up and the cue ball behind the headstring anywhere for the opening shot, every rack after that the 15th ball becomes the breakball and is left where it is and also cue ball is left where it lies, then the other 14 balls are racked.. Typicaly the person who lost the lag or coin flip will have the opening shot. You were correct to assume this shot is a safety shot, typically the player would thin one corner ball and bring the cue ball back uptable to the rail leaving long. Two balls and the cue ball have to touch a rail on this opening shot or its a 2 point penalty. The corner ball that was thinned will go to the back rail and the opposite side corner ball will go to the side rail and touch that rail, but you want to try and have them both go back into or very near the rack leaving nothing to shoot at or very tough shot.

Bob Jewett
08-10-2007, 02:16 PM
thanks for the info, i always thought the opening break was racked like the rest of the racks with the head ball out, but that ball placed anywhere on the table and taking cue ball in hand.
so is it normal to play safe on this shot? or to call a ball from the rack?
If you can make a ball from the full rack more than 50% of the time, that is what you should shoot, usually. I hear that's what Mosconi did sometimes. There are several shots you could play.

thyme3421
08-10-2007, 03:31 PM
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AALW4BCYB3CCpA4DCYe4EFCe3FCxe4GBKP3HAMB3IAUe3JF bd4KDnP3LBjP3MEMO4NBJl3OBal2PLef4YFCe4YbQm4YDOxzc3 eFbd3eFtk3eFCj3eFrdzc2kLef3kIEd3kKjj3kBbszcXjWj4uB WP@3AALW4BCYB3CCpA4DCYe4EFCe3FCxe4GBKP3HAMB3IAUe3J Fbd4KDnP3LBjP3MEMO4NBJl3OBal2PLNe4YFCe4YbYl4YAVA3e Fbd3eFUj3eEMr3eFSd2kLNe3kIEc3kNUj3kbHO2kAOkzcXiWiV i2vAOkhoa@

Page 1 is the break I aim for... on page 2 there's the break that I see most people aim for.

First rack is a full rack, just like 8 ball.... behind the head string, ball in hand... unless you're in europe, they may require within the D.... I'm not 100% on that though.

But like someone else said, for practice... what you do should be just fine.


p.s... I don't play a lot of 14.1, more 1pocket, 8 and 9.

Jimmy M.
08-10-2007, 04:12 PM
If you can make a ball from the full rack more than 50% of the time, that is what you should shoot, usually. I hear that's what Mosconi did sometimes. There are several shots you could play.

Mosconi would sometimes play a ball out of the stack on the opening break?

Do you happen to know the ball he'd play (and, if so, think you could diagram it)?

Bob Jewett
08-10-2007, 04:16 PM
... Page 1 is the break I aim for... on page 2 there's the break that I see most people aim for. ...
If Page 1 works for you, it would be a great break and a tremendous innovation. The problem with it that I see is that balls can pop out of the back of the rack even with a tight rack, and that could leave your opponent a short straight-in.

As for Page 2, that's not quite the orthodox safe break that most top 14.1 players use. More common is to hit the corner ball as you show, but to use quite a bit of running english which will take you foot rail, right rail, left rail to end up on the head rail very close to the left head pocket. I'm not saying that the "orthodox" break is better than the shot you show, but I have never seen it used, IIRC, by any top player.

The cue ball and the struck object ball cross paths for your break shot. It's not clear to me which ball passes the crossing point first. Does this shot ever kiss for you?

The D is not part of the table that 14.1 is normally played on or the rules it's normally played under.

Bob Jewett
08-10-2007, 04:20 PM
Mosconi would sometimes play a ball out of the stack on the opening break?

Do you happen to know the ball he'd play (and, if so, think you could diagram it)?
The stories vary. I never saw him shoot it myself. One shot is to play the cue ball two cushions out of a foot corner to hit along the line of balls on the side of the rack, sending the head ball two cushions to a side pocket. I don't know of any rack or table that I would trust this shot on. The other shot I've heard of Mosconi playing was the head ball directly into the side, but that might be confused with kick-combination-banking it as in the first case.

I suppose you could also play the cue ball to the end cushion to hit the back corner ball to bank the head ball as above.

robertno1pool
08-10-2007, 05:48 PM
The stories vary. I never saw him shoot it myself. One shot is to play the cue ball two cushions out of a foot corner to hit along the line of balls on the side of the rack, sending the head ball two cushions to a side pocket. I don't know of any rack or table that I would trust this shot on. The other shot I've heard of Mosconi playing was the head ball directly into the side, but that might be confused with kick-combination-banking it as in the first case.

I suppose you could also play the cue ball to the end cushion to hit the back corner ball to bank the head ball as above.

Can someone diagram these shots?

Thyme3421 - I am going to try that break some in diagram 1 next time I practice. I have hit the second shot perfectly a handful of times, but definately lack consistency in figuring out why. Likely the way the balls were racked.

3andstop
08-11-2007, 06:07 AM
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AALW4BCYB3CCpA4DCYe4EFCe3FCxe4GBKP3HAMB3IAUe3JF bd4KDnP3LBjP3MEMO4NBJl3OBal2PLef4YFCe4YbQm4YDOxzc3 eFbd3eFtk3eFCj3eFrdzc2kLef3kIEd3kKjj3kBbszcXjWj4uB WP@3AALW4BCYB3CCpA4DCYe4EFCe3FCxe4GBKP3HAMB3IAUe3J Fbd4KDnP3LBjP3MEMO4NBJl3OBal2PLNe4YFCe4YbYl4YAVA3e Fbd3eFUj3eEMr3eFSd2kLNe3kIEc3kNUj3kbHO2kAOkzcXiWiV i2vAOkhoa@

Page 1 is the break I aim for... on page 2 there's the break that I see most people aim for.

First rack is a full rack, just like 8 ball.... behind the head string, ball in hand... unless you're in europe, they may require within the D.... I'm not 100% on that though.

But like someone else said, for practice... what you do should be just fine.


p.s... I don't play a lot of 14.1, more 1pocket, 8 and 9.


I wouldn't use the break on page 1 even if I felt I could pull it off well for two main reasons. Number one, it leaves the cue ball close to the rack and allows your opponent an easier answer to your break based on the cue ball's placement. It would seem that you, in fact would be the player who would end up being placed up at the end rail if the opportunity arose for you opponent.

Number two, should any ball pop out a tad, the shot would be easier for your opponent since the cue ball is closer to it.

As for the second rack (BTW, I have no idea how to use that table graphic, :( ) The idea is to double the the pocket on the lower right and end up frozen to the rail on the upper left. That is at least the orthodox approach.

Rod
08-11-2007, 09:40 AM
Can someone diagram these shots?

Thyme3421 - I am going to try that break some in diagram 1 next time I practice. I have hit the second shot perfectly a handful of times, but definately lack consistency in figuring out why. Likely the way the balls were racked.

Here is the opening break. http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AALW4BCYB3CCpA4DCYe4EFCe3FCxe4GBKP3HAMB3IAUe3JF bd4KDnP3LBjP3MEMO4NBJl3OBal2PMLU4YFCe4YbYk4YIMs3eF bd3eGCj3eGSn3eGyE2kMLU3kHvd3kOrk3kbIq1kbQg1kPxg@

The above is the correct link in case you viewed the wrong one.

The first break as shown by another poster is next to impossible. The second break isn't consistent. Hit to much or little ball and its going to be a sell out or possibly a foul.

By sending the opening break shot to double the lower right corner makes break speed less sensitive. It is far more consistent.

I never saw Mosconi in tournament play call a ball from the rack. I did see him once after an exhibition bank the corner ball to the top right corner. I think that shot is the best shot if one felt lucky.





Rod

Bob Jewett
08-11-2007, 10:12 AM
... I never saw Mosconi in tournament play call a ball from the rack. I did see him once after an exhibition bank the corner ball to the top right corner. I think that shot is the best shot if one felt lucky. ...
I tried that one in practice before league and the ball banked back into the rack. I had never seen that happen before, and the rack looked tight.

Rod
08-11-2007, 10:19 AM
I've never see that happen Bob, must have been a chunk of chalk on the table, or --- the unknown

thyme3421
08-14-2007, 02:44 PM
I wouldn't use the break on page 1 even if I felt I could pull it off well for two main reasons. Number one, it leaves the cue ball close to the rack and allows your opponent an easier answer to your break based on the cue ball's placement. It would seem that you, in fact would be the player who would end up being placed up at the end rail if the opportunity arose for you opponent.

Number two, should any ball pop out a tad, the shot would be easier for your opponent since the cue ball is closer to it.

As for the second rack (BTW, I have no idea how to use that table graphic, :( ) The idea is to double the the pocket on the lower right and end up frozen to the rail on the upper left. That is at least the orthodox approach.


Good points everyone. I should point out that I try the break on page 1 only when practicing..... I've never once actually used it in a match against a player close to my level, or better.

The 2nd page was more of an idea... rather than an exact path... yesterday I was playing (practice alone) and noticed it does actually cross the table for a 2nd long rail.... so it goes foot, right long, left long, then freeze on short head rail.



....The cue ball and the struck object ball cross paths for your break shot. It's not clear to me which ball passes the crossing point first. Does this shot ever kiss for you?

The D is not part of the table that 14.1 is normally played on or the rules it's normally played under.


Thanks for clearin' up that bit on the D, Bob. They usually kiss... 8/10 shots... the times that they don't kiss the QB breaks up the rack more than I'd like... but it ends up a decent break.
I just want to practice it to the point that they kiss 2/10 times, and don't break up the rack at all. I still use the "regular" break that 90% of all other players use.

My issue with this break (page 1) is the inside english usually bends the ball into the rack more than I'd like, breaking up the back row a LOT more than I want. Need practice, and probably be wise to use the more common break, and perfect that instead. lol

Mike_Mason
08-15-2007, 04:40 PM
I like the diagram on page 2 in the diagram of 3andstop...except I would start with the cue ball closer to the side rail.

The point is to leave the cue ball near the center diamond on the head rail after the break...someone will have to tell me how they will gain the offensive from that position.

Many players here...and good ones...propose to leave the cue ball near one of the pockets at the head of the table. Imo this leaves the advantage to the incoming player...

Incoming player can take a deliberate scratch by shooting to the bottom rail and into the back of the pack...hitting maybe the 4-ball or 6-ball in this diagram...and pop a few balls out from the pack...

If the player is in reasonable stroke, he/she can play for the 11-ball or 13-ball to travel to the side rail for a legal shot.

In either case...the battle is on....

This pool player would much rather step up to a full rack and my cue ball near a side rail than stuck to the middle of the top rail...peace...

Mike

Mike_Mason
08-15-2007, 04:42 PM
The diagram's original poster seems to be thyme3421...

Roy Steffensen
08-19-2007, 02:49 AM
Here's my opening shot from the break.

If you hit the 5 as full as you can without touching the 11 you can bank the 5 in the top corner. Use either high or low inside english, medium speed.

If you use low inside english the cueball ends up near the rack, high english it ends up behind the line. I feel I am making the ball more often with high, that's why I put it up as an option, and didn't draw a line for where whitey ends up.

Try it, you will be surprised how "easy" it actually is.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AALW4BCYB3CCpA4DCYe4EFCe3FCxe4GBKP3HAMB3IAUe3JF bd4KDnP3LBjP3MEMO4NBJl3OBal1PRBT4YFCe4YIOn1YcIo1kR BT4kGYP@


Below is another interesting shot that you can use if you fail to play position to the breakball. Use the same shot to bank the 10-ball in the side.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AFia4BCYB3CCpA4DCYe4EFCe3FCxe4GBKP3HAMB3IAUe3JF bd4KDnP3LBjP3MEMO4NBJl3OBal4PLXt3eFbd3eboT4ecjG4kL Xt3kEdr3kbJL4kGiL@

nick serdula
08-30-2007, 12:28 AM
History lessons?
Willie Hoppie used to do this. He would announce to a crowd at his exibitions this is how you play straight pool. He called the head ball cross sides. Then he fired the cue into the head ball and banked it cross sides and run 100 balls declaring nothin to it.
And that was on old backed cloth.
I was told this by a old timer that used to run around with St.Louie Louie. He told me about Willie and how he never saw anything like it again in all his years. He had to be around his mid 60's when he told me about watching Willie and this was more than a few years ago.
He also said he tried to duplicate the break shot many times. He never saw anyone else do anything like it and he himself never came close to doing anything but making the head ball in the side without it hitting a rail.
He told me in all the decades he played and was around pool it was the most amazing thing he ever witnessed. He was a road player. And he could play!
Players today are great they are not in the same universe as Hoppie and Greenleaf.
I used to hear stories in New York in the middle 60's about Hoppie running out from the break and Greenleaf running 1200 balls and to this day I still say nothing close.
I don't see anyone proving me wrong. And what really has to mess with your head is there equipment was primative! But for the cash they never missed. Makes you sick doesn't it!
Nick :)

CreeDo
08-30-2007, 05:29 AM
lol, it's nice to give respect to the old greats, but I think you're too easily impressed by trick shots. Being able to call a funny shot from a full rack doesn't mean you're the best player in the universe (though Greenleaf certainly might have been, for a while).

Today's players are very close to the skill of the legends. Several modern players, even if they didn't try a bank as the opening shot, have run out from their first turn at the table (from 0 to 150). As for a run of 1200 balls... lol even Fats wouldn't make up such a crazy number. Better to make up a more believable number like 700.

Thomas engert is still playing and has a higher run than hoppe or greenleaf, I believe...

nick serdula
08-30-2007, 08:48 AM
Hoppie would run out from his opening break. Not from the opponents break. And the break shot was no trick shot except to say that it was something only he was known to do.
Even doing the Mez and taking a scratch on your first shot so you could win the high run pool,it was $500 I think,because someone else ran 125 as amazing as it was comes up short to if you loose the break on a lag you don't see the table! And Steve did just that!
Seems up north years ago no one banked. And that is what really made this move amazing to me. Down here in the south,differant story. They bank at everything!
Thanks for your time!
Nick :)

Pushout
08-30-2007, 09:12 AM
History lessons?
Willie Hoppie used to do this. He would announce to a crowd at his exibitions this is how you play straight pool. He called the head ball cross sides. Then he fired the cue into the head ball and banked it cross sides and run 100 balls declaring nothin to it.
Nick :)

I think you've got the names mixed up. Hoppe sneered at Pool. Do you mean Willie Mosconi?

3andstop
08-30-2007, 10:29 AM
Maybe Minnesota Fats? ... I can't image any straight pool player in his right mind actually going in on some wacky cross corner or cross side flyer to start a game with the notion he would leave himself a shot afterwards. :)

Unless they were only playing me, that is ... :(

rukiddingme
08-31-2007, 10:17 AM
Maybe Minnesota Fats? ... I can't image any straight pool player in his right mind actually going in on some wacky cross corner or cross side flyer to start a game with the notion he would leave himself a shot afterwards. :)

Unless they were only playing me, that is ... :(

Yes...but if you know the shot and have practiced it and make it regularly...and it may extend your best run ever...why not?
ruk

Bob Jewett
08-31-2007, 11:09 AM
... I used to hear stories in New York in the middle 60's about Hoppie running out from the break and Greenleaf running 1200 balls and to this day I still say nothing close....
As others mentioned, Willie Hoppe could play pool, but played various kinds of carom billiards in his exhibitions. I don't know if Hoppe ever had a one-inning game at any form of billiards, but since he doesn't mention one in his book, "Billiards As It Should Be Played," I assume he did not.

The shots from the full rack that Mosconi is said to have played are:

the back corner ball one rail to a head pocket

the head ball straight into the side

the head ball two rails (side, head) to the side after playing the cue ball off the foot rail to the back corner ball

I have never heard any rumors of high practice runs by Greenleaf. I think his highest tournament run was 125 or 127.

Robertduke
09-04-2007, 04:45 AM
lol, it's nice to give respect to the old greats, but I think you're too easily impressed by trick shots. Being able to call a funny shot from a full rack doesn't mean you're the best player in the universe (though Greenleaf certainly might have been, for a while).

Today's players are very close to the skill of the legends. Several modern players, even if they didn't try a bank as the opening shot, have run out from their first turn at the table (from 0 to 150). As for a run of 1200 balls... lol even Fats wouldn't make up such a crazy number. Better to make up a more believable number like 700.

Thomas engert is still playing and has a higher run than hoppe or greenleaf, I believe...

Didnt they play on 5 by 10s..

CreeDo
09-04-2007, 10:25 AM
true :)
Maybe engert only runs half as many on a larger table. We'll never know.