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Blackjack
10-04-2007, 01:49 PM
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AAMB4BCYB3CCpA4DCYe4EFCe3FCxe4GBKP3HLem3IAUe3JF bd4KDnP3LBjP3MEMO4NBJl3OBal2PUQd1uBvG@

I am asking this just to see how many different ways other players would try to attack this break shot. In your response, I want to know how you will strike the cue ball (Stun, Draw, Follow) and which ball in the stack you want to make contact with.

Try to provide a diagram with yoru response - I just want to see how different players would shoot this shot.

This is what I did the other night:
I put a little bit of bottom on the cue ball - knocked the 8 in - and went directly into the 15 ball - cue ball drifted slowly back to the center of the table. I didn't get much ball dispersement, but I did end up with several secondary break balls. A friend suggested that I should have followed deeper into the pack... but I liked this.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AAMB4BCYB3CCpA4DCYe4EFCe3FCxe4GBKP3HLem3IAUe3JF bd4KDnP3LBjP3MEMO4NBJl3OBal2PUId1QHra3cLem3ccQr3cc Qrzc2kUId3kKPY3kDeh1kIAazc1uCEC@

Steve Lipsky
10-04-2007, 03:11 PM
David,

Just making the 8 looks fairly difficult to me. It's a shot I expect to make if I play it with what feels most comfortable. Looking at the WEI, it's tough for me to say what that would be.

My only choices would be:

1. hard top
2. hard draw
3. soft-medium draw (a little more draw than a stun stroke)

I think I would go with #3, the soft-medium draw.

Soft top would not be one of my options, just for the record. That looks too scratchy for me. (And if I do hit the rack full, it also looks like I might get stuck.) The hard top should curve the cueball nicely into the end rail.

Anyway, I guess my point is that on shots like this, their difficulty would make me cinch the shot (though not with slow speed) and accept the results. At this extreme angle, I figure to do some damage to the rack no matter what spin I use on the cueball.

I will try to set it up tonight and see which I prefer.

- Steve

Bob Jewett
10-04-2007, 03:41 PM
... I am asking this just to see how many different ways other players would try to attack this break shot. In your response, I want to know how you will strike the cue ball (Stun, Draw, Follow) and which ball in the stack you want to make contact with. ...
If I'm hitting the stroke shots well, I like the shot you chose. If I'm not hitting those well or don't feel comfortable for one reason or another, I'm going to play this with soft follow (probably into the 13 and then down to the foot cushion) for a secondary break shot into the lower-left foot pocket. I don't think a scratch from that approach angle is likely.

mnorwood
10-04-2007, 03:52 PM
I like medium follow. Hard follow possibly? I don't think the cue ball would miss the stack. What do you think?

Mike_Mason
10-04-2007, 05:44 PM
Blackjack

As a general rule...when the angle is borderline severe...which I judge this shot to be...and the cue ball will hit the pack at a great place...I follow medium stroke...less of an angle and I'll probably draw the cue ball off the pack to center table.

I'm not saying that I'll know exactly where the cue ball will end up and which object balls will spread where...but I would bet that I make the break ball...spread the rack fair enough to have a shot and continue the high run...

Thanks for the situation.

Mike

3andstop
10-04-2007, 06:43 PM
For me this is the typical kind of shot that requires a very clear mental picture of what is going to happen. Once I have that feeling, I make sure I totally commit to it or this one is going to get undercut. A full follow through on my stroke here with medium to hard follow. I'd like to catch the top of the three and eat into the rack a bit.

Craig Fales
10-04-2007, 09:28 PM
I shoot it with med/hard speed trying to hit just above the 15 and move balls over to the corner pocket...to me this is a perfectly setup break ball...

LoGiC
10-04-2007, 11:07 PM
Hard stroke- with a very small amount of running english :cool:

Gerry
10-05-2007, 02:31 AM
Like Bob, I would roll the cb and glance a few out bringing the cb to the bottom rail. I don't like big angle backcut breakers, and if I splash the rack and miss....there goes my first rule of 14.1! :D

Gerry

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AALW4BFiq3CCpA4DDPy4EFjh3FDGq4GBKP3HAMB3IAUe3JI dm4KDnP3LBjP3MEMO4NBJl3OBal3PSjH2qQtFI'm_looking_f or_something_like_this._Then_go_to_work_from_there .&ZZ@

nick serdula
10-05-2007, 08:04 AM
But one thing is for sure. Never draw into the pack. It is a last resort. This is because you will chance are freezing up.
Nick :)

OneArmed
10-05-2007, 08:32 AM
Depending on who I was playing, and what the stakes were, I would probably play a safe here. Mostly because I'm not the best shotmaker out there and if playing someone above my caliber, I wouldn't want to bust open the rack, as that shot is out of my personal 95% range.. I would hit with a little top and drift the cue ball into the stack to freeze, and put the 8 near the back rail.

If I was trying to make the break ball, I would put a little follow and try to contact the 13, freeing the 10.

Knowing my weaknesses, I would probably end up stuck to the stack, and forced to play safe down table to the far rail.

mosconiac
10-05-2007, 12:26 PM
This particular break shot is troublesome for me...and probably most everyone. I'd love for the CB to be much closer to the 8, but given what he have...I would line up the 8 to cheat the inside of the pocket and shoot with top spin which will help throw the 8 back to the center of the pocket.

...but before I do all that, I would look at the tangent line which looks be lined up to split the rack between the 3 & 13. This is usually a problem as that will slow the CB more than catching a ball more fully.

Fortunately, my top spin (if I hit with no more than medium speed) will get me a more thick hit on the 13 which will help me get the CB moving again towards the end rail. I might even put a slight inside english on the CB to get it to "bite into" the 13 and spin off the rack. I am playing position on the 10.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AAMB4BCYB3CCpA4DCYe4EFCe3FCxe4GBKP3HLem3IAUe3JF bd4KDnP3LBjP3MEMO4NBJl3OBal2PUQd3cLem3cbrh3eFbd3eH HO2kUQd3kKPY3kGQI3kGxR3kLft2uDCA3vKPYhiX@

Steve Lipsky
10-05-2007, 02:48 PM
Bob, Gerry, and Mosconiac,

You three seem to advocate a soft approach to this shot, so I was wondering if any of you have the ability to set this one up and youtube it for us?

My opinion: This breakshot naturally offers a very high yield. Intentionally playing it such that the only way to continue the run is to get a secondary breakshot behind the rack... it just doesn't seem like a very aggressive way to play straight pool.

I've been wrong a million times so this could easily be a million and one, lol ;). I'm very curious to see this youtubed. If any of you have the ability to upload it, please set the shot up 3 consecutive times... no need to actually shoot any secondary breakshots. I'm just curious how predictable these results are.

Thanks,
Steve

mosconiac
10-05-2007, 06:59 PM
Bob, Gerry, and Mosconiac,

You three seem to advocate a soft approach to this shot, so I was wondering if any of you have the ability to set this one up and youtube it for us?
I happened to set this up this afternoon and shoot it once. I hadn't seen your post yet so I didn't record it...I was just goofing around.

Now that I look at the original setup again, I realize that I set the 8 a little high and close to the rack (maybe an inch or so each way). The position of the 8 is critical to how I would shoot this shot. A little higher (tangent hitting the 3 full) and I would draw it, a little lower and I follow (tangent hitting the 13 full).

Anyway, I hit the gap between the 13/3 and didn't get below the rack for the "10". Fortunately for me, the "15" popped out and I shot it in the side and began a short run (I dogged an easy ball at about 20-25 balls).

I will try to set it up more accurately this weekend and host a vid this Monday.

EDIT: To ensure I set it up properly (and others set it up the same as me if they attempt this shot), I drew up a way to accurately place the balls.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AbMc2BXjc2CWdr3DbHf3EbHO3FOrj3GMOj3HLem2PUQd4Qb HN2ROrj3XbHf4XbHf3bMOj2bMOl@

bruin70
10-05-2007, 07:01 PM
if i could shoot, i'd smack the cr@p out of it...there's too much of a chance to bury the cb. but since i miss the harder i hit, i'd use draw and hit it softer to pull the cb back out...doesn't look to me from the diagram that I would be able to pull the cb out to the center like blackjack,,,,,,but at least away from the pack.

this looks almost like an ervolino break, and the best solution is to drive the cb through the rack and spread the balls to kingdom come. cb might be a little to far though.

Blackjack
10-06-2007, 04:56 AM
Mosconiac,

Just so you know, I drew back on the ball to avoid hitting that gap. I ended up hitting high on the 15 and trickling out to the center. I got about medium dispersement and I was awarded several secondary break opportunities - however I know that contacting the 15 was pure luck, not skill - and I would probably never be able to duplicate the results.

Bruin hit the nail on the head - this is a classic Johnny Ervolino shot. Lately I have started giving my break shots a bit more angle. I heard John Schmidt say that when he sees guys setting up straight in break shots, that he knows that they are lacking confidence on whether they can make the break ball. However, when he sees guys leaving a big angle such as this, he knows that those are the guys that are going to spread the pack and run a lot of balls.

A few things I have noticed about these types of angles are that you know that you will spread the stack well because of the angle. Also, due to the steepness of the angle, you aren't very likely to scratch or get stuck to the stack. These shots aren't that difficult when you get used to them, and believe me, when you start to see the results you get afterwards, you'l never try to "baby" one of these shots again.

Nick, I draw into the stack all of the time when I have to. I go back to Danny Harriman's rule on follow and draw -

"Remember that if the fifteenth ball and or the 'break ball' is close to the rack we draw the cue ball, if the breakshot ball and the rack have distance (more than three ball's width) then we should address the cue ball with follow, there are a few exception's but this will help you not be so worried about scratching off of the rack and increase your high run average." - Danny Harriman


This shot is one of those "either/or" situations where both would work and get you a great result, which is why I asked the question in the first place. :p

I look forward to your video, Mosconiac.

dave sutton
10-06-2007, 12:43 PM
if you watch the truely great straight pool players they dont spread the pack. by spreading the pack balls tend to bunch up on the rails. in this game balls on the rail are the toughest balls and get you into trouble

i watch jose garcia play. his high is 362. he always bumps a few then a few more and finally when every ball has a pocket he makes his pattern. locates his break shot and finds his key balls

he also doesnt EVER touch a ball unless he has to

im blessed with 2 world class straightpool players as friends jose garcia and allen hopkins

poolplayer2093
10-06-2007, 01:32 PM
i think your sipposed to follow that ball with a little high left at that angle i don't think you'll scratch

poolplayer2093
10-06-2007, 01:34 PM
if you watch the truely great straight pool players they dont spread the pack. by spreading the pack balls tend to bunch up on the rails. in this game balls on the rail are the toughest balls and get you into trouble

i watch jose garcia play. his high is 362. he always bumps a few then a few more and finally when every ball has a pocket he makes his pattern. locates his break shot and finds his key balls

he also doesnt EVER touch a ball unless he has to

im blessed with 2 world class straightpool players as friends jose garcia and allen hopkins


i like the way pat flemming breaks the pack. i got a tape of him playing grady mathews and he plays the way i want to, really agressive

Steve Lipsky
10-06-2007, 02:17 PM
if you watch the truely great straight pool players they dont spread the pack. by spreading the pack balls tend to bunch up on the rails. in this game balls on the rail are the toughest balls and get you into trouble

i watch jose garcia play. his high is 362. he always bumps a few then a few more and finally when every ball has a pocket he makes his pattern. locates his break shot and finds his key balls

he also doesnt EVER touch a ball unless he has to

im blessed with 2 world class straightpool players as friends jose garcia and allen hopkins


Dave, the two players you mentioned are off-the-charts talented. The advice you gave in the post above is simply not conducive to improving runs for most players.

The reason that Allen and Jose can play like this is because of their ability to move the cueball so precisely, as well as their insight into exactly how to break a cluster. Finally, their pattern play is so pretty that they can see a jumble of balls and quickly deduce how to play it without really moving anything.

For players like this, there is no need to accept the slight volatility of hitting the rack hard.

There are a few handfuls of players alive with this ability. You named two of them and then claimed that everyone should play that way. I think you do a great disservice to amateur players trying to advocate this method.

I have seen more than my share of older players trying to play like this because they know the old-time pros did... most of them could run balls if they let themselves but instead, they just get stuck in the rack (or just run out of open balls to shoot), frame after frame.

- Steve

bruin70
10-07-2007, 01:11 AM
I have seen more than my share of older players trying to play like this because they know the old-time pros did... most of them could run balls if they let themselves but instead, they just get stuck in the rack (or just run out of open balls to shoot), frame after frame.

- Steve

this is so so so true. pool in general, and 14.1 especially, is all about knowing yourself, your game. that's because it is a game of choices,,,,the RIGHT choices for YOU. the choices you make defines the table you create.

one simply cannot ask another, even a reyes or orttman, to play the game ervolino/hopkins/garcia plays. that would be asking them to not be who they are. i for instance, even though i know there's more room for error in a wide open game, cannot play that way because i cannot see the longer shots,,,,,so i have to keep the layout small. my patterns are unconventional but make sense to me because i know what i can and cannot do.

dave sutton
10-07-2007, 05:30 AM
Dave, the two players you mentioned are off-the-charts talented. The advice you gave in the post above is simply not conducive to improving runs for most players.

The reason that Allen and Jose can play like this is because of their ability to move the cueball so precisely, as well as their insight into exactly how to break a cluster. Finally, their pattern play is so pretty that they can see a jumble of balls and quickly deduce how to play it without really moving anything.

For players like this, there is no need to accept the slight volatility of hitting the rack hard.

There are a few handfuls of players alive with this ability. You named two of them and then claimed that everyone should play that way. I think you do a great disservice to amateur players trying to advocate this method.

I have seen more than my share of older players trying to play like this because they know the old-time pros did... most of them could run balls if they let themselves but instead, they just get stuck in the rack (or just run out of open balls to shoot), frame after frame.

- Steve

i agree players must play thier own way

however there are secrets to the game. like key balls and insurance balls so on...

jose and allen didnt get wake up and be able to run 100 balls. its about consistancy and not taking chances. this includes not creating trouble. smashing and jamming multiple balls on the rails will not equate in high runs ay all

when i break the balls i use a meduim shot. then i identify my touble ball and attack them first. i always leave a ball on the back rail and down table incase i get stuck or out of line. then when every ball has a pocket i identify my break shot then the 3 key balls to get me on that break shot. attack the balls on the rails first. then play my pattern. every shot is a skilled shot

anyone can learn hot to play this way and its only a matter of time til they run 100, 200 or more

Blackjack
10-07-2007, 06:52 AM
i agree players must play thier own way

however there are secrets to the game. like key balls and insurance balls so on...

jose and allen didnt get wake up and be able to run 100 balls. its about consistancy and not taking chances. this includes not creating trouble. smashing and jamming multiple balls on the rails will not equate in high runs ay all

when i break the balls i use a meduim shot. then i identify my touble ball and attack them first. i always leave a ball on the back rail and down table incase i get stuck or out of line. then when every ball has a pocket i identify my break shot then the 3 key balls to get me on that break shot. attack the balls on the rails first. then play my pattern. every shot is a skilled shot

anyone can learn hot to play this way and its only a matter of time til they run 100, 200 or more

Dave,
I agree with you and I also agree with Steve. I believe that players that have the ability to work through the balls will play in the fashion that Jose and Allen play. Guys like Ervolino liked to smash the hell out of the rack because they liked running open balls, and they were able to use almost anything as a break ball.

I was taught both ways by Cisero Murphy, and both come in handy when playing in different table conditions. I have noticed that my game used to be the nudge and budge game, however recently I have begun experimenting with different break methods and pattern play due to the advent of the faster cloth - which IMO, changed the dynamics of how you play this game. What works today for some of the players would not have worked back in Mosconi's day due to the equipment. The balls spread easier on Simonis, IMO.

Your strategy best describes how I was taught to play 14.1. When you watch players today drawing the cue ball off the stack and going uptable and back towards the center, it boggles the mind, however the faster cloth allows players like Thorsten to play these types of shots consistently, and this will influence a lot of the younger players. I don't mind this, it's a lot better than playing the short attention span/short races of 9 ball. :p

sjm
10-07-2007, 07:13 AM
Let's not overlook the difference in conditions back then.

For a given speed of stroke, the balls would spread less in the old days, and that, in part, explains why more players had to, or chose to, or play the rack like a surgeon. Yes, there were a few, like Ervolino, Rempe, and Lassiter, who were willing to cream the break shot to get spreads comparable to those more typical of what you see on Simonis 860 today. Many, however, understood, that making the ball came first, and wouldn't chance hitting it extra hard to be sure of spreading them.

Yes, straight pool playing philosophies have evolved, but some of it is directly traceable to changes n the equipment.

Steve Lipsky
10-07-2007, 12:29 PM
i agree players must play thier own way

however there are secrets to the game. like key balls and insurance balls so on...

jose and allen didnt get wake up and be able to run 100 balls. its about consistancy and not taking chances. this includes not creating trouble. smashing and jamming multiple balls on the rails will not equate in high runs ay all


Dave, to some extent I agree with you. There are many instances when great care should be taken when going into the balls. People who have never seen me play probably think, from my posts, that I play like a loon. I don't just blindly whack at the balls every chance I get, nor would I ever advocate that. And I almost never hit secondary breakshots hard.

There are many break shots which demand a soft hit, and I think a player's game truly develops when he can discern which speed will match which breakshot. Players that adjust their "rules" for the game, depending on the situation, are the ones that scare me. Anyone always breaking soft or always breaking hard isn't going to last very long against a good player.

- Steve

dave sutton
10-07-2007, 02:04 PM
i agree. some should be harder than others. i play a very controlled game. i know where the ball is going , where im bumping balls, how im comming off that bump and what my next shot is

knowing insurance balls is key here also

another key to great players is thier ability to play for the middle of the table and also give themselves multiple shots at the same time

i guess it depends on the break shot. how im striking the cueball and how im hitting the rack.

thats the beatuy of pool there are so many variables

Deadon
10-08-2007, 01:43 AM
Med speed, little low and maybe a hair of left, hitting the 3 full.

Bob Jewett
10-08-2007, 11:14 AM
Bob, Gerry, and Mosconiac,

You three seem to advocate a soft approach to this shot, so I was wondering if any of you have the ability to set this one up and youtube it for us? ...
Sorry, no youtube, but I did spend about 15 minutes with the shot this weekend.

The answer is that if you play with soft follow, the result depends critically on the position of the break ball. If it is a quarter-inch one way or the other, the result will be totally different. If you land on the edge of the 3 in the diagram, the cue ball takes more or less the path of a standard one pocket break -- end rail, side rail -- and then goes to about the side pocket. When I got this hit, the rack was always open enough to continue. There seemed to be no chance at all of a scratch, except maybe in the side pocket after two cushions and at a very shallow angle.

However, if the rack is moved up just a little, the cue ball lands full on the 13 and usually sticks. Sometimes a shot is available but not usually.

My conclusion is that if you are going to roll the ball in with follow on this shot, you better know that you are going to hit the lower side of a ball so you can exit on two cushions.

My original plan of just rolling down to the foot rail for a secondary break does not work because for this exact position, the cue ball has too much speed.

Steve Lipsky
10-08-2007, 11:28 AM
Sorry, no youtube, but I did spend about 15 minutes with the shot this weekend.

The answer is that if you play with soft follow, the result depends critically on the position of the break ball. If it is a quarter-inch one way or the other, the result will be totally different. If you land on the edge of the 3 in the diagram, the cue ball takes more or less the path of a standard one pocket break -- end rail, side rail -- and then goes to about the side pocket. When I got this hit, the rack was always open enough to continue. There seemed to be no chance at all of a scratch, except maybe in the side pocket after two cushions and at a very shallow angle.

However, if the rack is moved up just a little, the cue ball lands full on the 13 and usually sticks. Sometimes a shot is available but not usually.

My conclusion is that if you are going to roll the ball in with follow on this shot, you better know that you are going to hit the lower side of a ball so you can exit on two cushions.

My original plan of just rolling down to the foot rail for a secondary break does not work because for this exact position, the cue ball has too much speed.

Great analysis Bob, thanks. As with all break shots, I guess, moving the object ball just slightly in any direction seems to change almost everything. Therefore, it's always difficult to discuss these things in terms of absolutes.

I tried it a few times myself, and since I was doing it completely from memory, I just placed the 8 in such a position where I knew I could roll down to the end cushion. The first time, I got safe, with no legitimate shot. Another time, I had a few shots but no legitimate way to continue the run after that. The third time, I could have negotiated my way to opening the rack.

Of course, my analysis done from memory of the positions is fairly meaningless. But I guess my conclusion is that given a break angle as wide as this, there's no way I'm going to trust to luck on a secondary break shot behind the rack.

- Steve

dave sutton
10-08-2007, 02:25 PM
i gues thats why the great players play for the middle of the table. giver the most options fo another shot

rolling to the end rail is bad be a) the speed is hard and b) odds are your gonna have balls in the way. you can have a good idea of what balls will do out of the pack but never exact

you guys got me itching to play straight again. hard game around here. we had a handicapped league. i was the highest rated player but races were only to 100. i ran 58 my first match in years. ended up like 9-1 but i got the shaft.

i had a player forfit and i only got 50 pts and that hurt my total score. only ended up with like 942 pts in 10 matches....

mosconiac
10-09-2007, 10:04 AM
Well, this may be humbling…but I’m willing to share my video. I tried the shot a number of ways to see how each combination of speed, english, and spin would affect the quality of the break.

I forgot to try Blackjack’s draw shot…sorry!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwNISCMfjD8

Attempt#1: I tried Bob Jewett’s idea…firm speed with moderate spin & a little inside english. The CB missed the “gap” in the stack so this worked very well! I undercut the ball, which is my tendency for this type of shot.

Attempt#2: Repeated attempt#1 with medium speed. The CB avoided the “gap” in the stack so this worked fairly well too, but I don’t like the CB position. I undercut the ball again…I’m surprised I avoided the “gap”.

Attempt#3: I repeated attempt#2 with less spin. This worked OK although the CB hit the “gap” in the stack. I undercut the ball again and was lucky the 9 ball came into view. I would not use this combination in play due to my tendency to undercut the ball.

Attempt#4: I repeated attempt#3 without the inside english to help me NOT undercut the OB this time. I caught center pocket and this break worked fairly well. The CB hit the “gap” in the stack but the balls separated and I got a shot. Although it worked this time, I reached the same conclusion as in attempt#3…I should not use medium speed with less than 1-1/2 tips of top spin.

Attempt#5: repeated attempt#4 with more spin & a little outside english (to force myself into a thinner cut on the OB). I wanted to see what happens when I overcut the pocket, but I overdid it and missed. Miraculously I still hit the “gap”! I must have let up on the top?!!?

My conclusion is that going "forward" (toward the end rail) in this situation takes on some risk. I am unsure if this risk is any more than would be experienced with draw, but that can be determined with a little more experimentation.

My choice in the future will be to stroke this type of shot (where the tangent takes the CB into the "gap") firmly with at least 1-1/2 tips of top spin and a 1/2 tip of inside to mimic what Bob Jewett suggests (bring the CB two rails out to the center of the table).

If I fail to stroke the shot, I will end up hitting the gap and will be relying on luck to end up with a shot.

Your results may vary as you may not tend to undercut this shot like I do.

Blackjack
10-09-2007, 11:06 AM
Well, this may be humbling?but I?m willing to share my video. I tried the shot a number of ways to see how each combination of speed, english, and spin would affect the quality of the break.

I forgot to try Blackjack?s draw shot?sorry!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwNISCMfjD8

Attempt#1: I tried Bob Jewett?s idea?firm speed with moderate spin & a little inside english. The CB missed the ?gap? in the stack so this worked very well! I undercut the ball, which is my tendency for this type of shot.

Attempt#2: Repeated attempt#1 with medium speed. The CB avoided the ?gap? in the stack so this worked fairly well too, but I don?t like the CB position. I undercut the ball again?I?m surprised I avoided the ?gap?.

Attempt#3: I repeated attempt#2 with less spin. This worked OK although the CB hit the ?gap? in the stack. I undercut the ball again and was lucky the 9 ball came into view. I would not use this combination in play due to my tendency to undercut the ball.

Attempt#4: I repeated attempt#3 without the inside english to help me NOT undercut the OB this time. I caught center pocket and this break worked fairly well. The CB hit the ?gap? in the stack but the balls separated and I got a shot. Although it worked this time, I reached the same conclusion as in attempt#3?I should not use medium speed with less than 1-1/2 tips of top spin.

Attempt#5: repeated attempt#4 with more spin & a little outside english (to force myself into a thinner cut on the OB). I wanted to see what happens when I overcut the pocket, but I overdid it and missed. Miraculously I still hit the ?gap?! I must have let up on the top?!!?

My conclusion is that going "forward" (toward the end rail) in this situation takes on some risk. I am unsure if this risk is any more than would be experienced with draw, but that can be determined with a little more experimentation.

My choice in the future will be to stroke this type of shot (where the tangent takes the CB into the "gap") firmly with at least 1-1/2 tips of top spin and a 1/2 tip of inside to mimic what Bob Jewett suggests (bring the CB two rails out to the center of the table).

If I fail to stroke the shot, I will end up hitting the gap and will be relying on luck to end up with a shot.

Your results may vary as you may not tend to undercut this shot like I do.

Great video! Try the draw shot that I diagrammed and let me know how that worked. If you watch, you kept getting stuck to the pack because you were sending the cue ball into the gap between the balls. That is why I liked drawing this shot and hitting it firm.

I like these angled shots because you get good ball dispersement, as is evident by your first two attempts.

PROG8R
10-09-2007, 12:21 PM
David,
Why wouldn't you go for the rack on this shot? It seems to be almost an ideal keyball shot to bust the hell out of that rack and get to work?
Just draw it into the rack, HARD.

Reword the description of draw, closer to a ball busting stop shot.

Blackjack
10-09-2007, 12:48 PM
David,
Why wouldn't you go for the rack on this shot? It seems to be almost an ideal keyball shot to bust the hell out of that rack and get to work?
Just draw it into the rack, HARD.

Reword the description of draw, closer to a ball busting stop shot.


The more you play straight pool, the more you learn that finesse will always win out over power. Drawing powerfully into the stack does spread the balls, but in this situation it's really not necessary. I have seen some guys hit the stack so hard that they knock all of the balls away from the rack area, leaving very few options for a break ball. Knowing how to work balls out of the stack is a vital to learning how to play this game. I'm not scared to tap a few out on the break ball, and then go to work with secondary break balls. It's a much more controlled way to play - and it believe it or not, you will be more successful with that. A lot of the younger players like to smash the $hit out the stack carelessly, and usually that carelessness will leak into other areas of their game as well. In this shot, I know the cue ball is going into the stack, and all I have to do is make the shot and control the cue ball.

PROG8R
10-09-2007, 12:57 PM
players like to smash the $hit out the stack carelessly, and usually that carelessness will leak into other areas of their game as well. In this shot, I know the cue ball is going into the stack, and all I have to do is make the shot and control the cue ball.

Hey!! :D

Why yes it does as a matter of fact. I take pride in losing quite a few matches that way. LOL
But, I put up some awesome outs when it works. That is what keeps pool fun to me. Long drawn out safety battles absolutely kill me!! Even if it means I am going to lose, I will still try to pull it off instead of playing another safety. I am only good for methodical for a few shots then I am back in the wild-wild west. Patience is something I have with my son, everywhere else I like to just go for it.

Blackjack
10-09-2007, 01:17 PM
Hey!! :D

Why yes it does as a matter of fact. I take pride in losing quite a few matches that way. LOL
But, I put up some awesome outs when it works. That is what keeps pool fun to me. Long drawn out safety battles absolutely kill me!! Even if it means I am going to lose, I will still try to pull it off instead of playing another safety. I am only good for methodical for a few shots then I am back in the wild-wild west. Patience is something I have with my son, everywhere else I like to just go for it.

I'm not saying to play methodically and painfully slow; I am saying that I don't need to smash the balls here... as long as none of the balls are touching each other, I'll be happy - I just don't need to splatter them all over the table. I want to keep them down near the rack area, but separate them from each other so that I can pocket them... I hope that is a clearer explanation.

PROG8R
10-09-2007, 07:18 PM
I'm not saying to play methodically and painfully slow; I am saying that I don't need to smash the balls here... as long as none of the balls are touching each other, I'll be happy - I just don't need to splatter them all over the table. I want to keep them down near the rack area, but separate them from each other so that I can pocket them... I hope that is a clearer explanation.

It is just painfully clear to me that I need to play with you for a bit. I can see that I am in desperate need of a little management assistance.

dave sutton
10-10-2007, 01:16 AM
everyone seems to have good knowledge. good rep for all

some ppl play certin shots stronger. my friend nick hits every shot low. even when he follows

i agree finess wins over banging... in this case :D :eek: :D :eek: :rolleyes:

PROG8R
10-10-2007, 06:53 AM
I was messing around with a guy once and he had a shot similar to this one. He had an interesting spin on it though. He jumped the cue ball into the key ball, and the cue landed in the center of the pack and spread them up.

dave sutton
10-10-2007, 06:59 AM
ive used a jump ball off the back rail into the rack.
i love that shot

mosconiac
10-15-2007, 08:55 AM
Well, this may be (even more) humbling, but I am willing to share another video...this time I tried Blackjack's draw shot. I tried the shot a number of ways to see how each combination of speed, english, and spin would affect the quality of the break.

I tend to avoid draw on this type of stroke due to my mental block about drawing into the stack and getting stuck. The first three attempts illustrate this well as I ended up on the head rail due to being too aggressive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUPyrIBFnQI

Attempt#1: I used medium/firm speed with moderate draw. The CB contacted the top of the lower ball in the “gap” and rebounded quickly off the stack and ran to the end rail. Although I ended up with a (long) pocketable shot, this attempt would have been perfect with less speed.

Attempt#2: Repeated attempt#1 . The CB again contacted the top of the lower ball in the “gap” in the stack and ran to the end rail. I intended to use less speed, but I was to mentally weak to let up on the stroke. This attempt again resulted in a (long) pocketable shot.

Attempt#3: Repeated attempt#2 . The CB again contacted the top of the lower ball in the “gap” in the stack and ran to the end rail. Again, I was to mentally weak to let up on the stroke...hence my little show of frustration.

Attempt#4: I repeated attempt#3 with little less speed, less draw, & a touch of outside english (as a concession to my fear of sticking the rack). The CB again contacted the top of the lower ball in the “gap” in the stack and ran toward the end rail. My frustration/anxiety over using less speed and less draw resulted in a miss.

Attempt#5: I repeated attempt#4 with less speed (finally!), the original draw, & no outside english. Lower speed and moderate draw allowed the CB more time to "hook" before contacting the stack. The CB now contacted the upper ball in the “gap” in the stack and ran to the side rail. Although the CB is close to the side rail, I have some OB options.

Attempt#6: I repeated attempt#5. The CB hooked a bit more and contacted the bottom of the upper ball in the “gap” in the stack and ran to the side rail. Again the CB is close to the side rail...my only simple shot is the 14 in the side.

My conclusion is that going "backward" (toward the center of the table) in this situation is too difficult for me to control. I am less comfortable with the shot (versus the follow shot) and this results in the CB running to the end rail. Your results may vary from mine as you may not have the same fear of this shot.

To mimic Blackjack's results, I would need to really buckle down and trust less speed and more draw (2 tips) in order to solidly contact the upper ball in the “gap” and slide nicely to the center of the table.

My choice in the future will be to continue to stroke this type of shot (where the tangent takes the CB into the "gap") firmly with at least 1-1/2 tips of top spin and a 1/2 tip of inside to mimic what Bob Jewett suggests (bring the CB two rails out to the center of the table).

mosconiac
10-15-2007, 09:15 AM
I should also mention that the missed break in attempt#4 was not a big surprise to me. My tendency is to miss about every 5th or 6th break shot...which is about what I did here.

This is why my recent high runs are in the range of 50-60 balls. If I don't make a mistake during ball running, I'll typically miss the break shot every 4th rack or 5th rack. I always initiate the run from the first break shot.

My overall best occured about 6-8 years ago and was right at 80 balls on a tight AMF 9' (it had solid AMF 1/4" shims on each side of the pocket). My current Kim Steel is much softer, yet I can't break a longer run. :o

Blackjack
10-15-2007, 09:22 AM
Well, this may be (even more) humbling, but I am willing to share another video...this time I tried Blackjack's draw shot. I tried the shot a number of ways to see how each combination of speed, english, and spin would affect the quality of the break.

I tend to avoid draw on this type of stroke due to my mental block about drawing into the stack and getting stuck. The first three attempts illustrate this well as I ended up on the head rail due to being too aggressive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUPyrIBFnQI

Attempt#1: I used medium/firm speed with moderate draw. The CB contacted the top of the lower ball in the ?gap? and rebounded quickly off the stack and ran to the end rail. Although I ended up with a (long) pocketable shot, this attempt would have been perfect with less speed.

Attempt#2: Repeated attempt#1 . The CB again contacted the top of the lower ball in the ?gap? in the stack and ran to the end rail. I intended to use less speed, but I was to mentally weak to let up on the stroke. This attempt again resulted in a (long) pocketable shot.

Attempt#3: Repeated attempt#2 . The CB again contacted the top of the lower ball in the ?gap? in the stack and ran to the end rail. Again, I was to mentally weak to let up on the stroke...hence my little show of frustration.

Attempt#4: I repeated attempt#3 with little less speed, less draw, & a touch of outside english (as a concession to my fear of sticking the rack). The CB again contacted the top of the lower ball in the ?gap? in the stack and ran toward the end rail. My frustration/anxiety over using less speed and less draw resulted in a miss.

Attempt#5: I repeated attempt#4 with less speed (finally!), the original draw, & no outside english. Lower speed and moderate draw allowed the CB more time to "hook" before contacting the stack. The CB now contacted the upper ball in the ?gap? in the stack and ran to the side rail. Although the CB is close to the side rail, I have some OB options.

Attempt#6: I repeated attempt#5. The CB hooked a bit more and contacted the bottom of the upper ball in the ?gap? in the stack and ran to the side rail. Again the CB is close to the side rail...my only simple shot is the 14 in the side.

My conclusion is that going "backward" (toward the center of the table) in this situation is too difficult for me to control. I am less comfortable with the shot (versus the follow shot) and this results in the CB running to the end rail. Your results may vary from mine as you may not have the same fear of this shot.

To mimic Blackjack's results, I would need to really buckle down and trust less speed and more draw (2 tips) in order to solidly contact the upper ball in the ?gap? and slide nicely to the center of the table.

My choice in the future will be to continue to stroke this type of shot (where the tangent takes the CB into the "gap") firmly with at least 1-1/2 tips of top spin and a 1/2 tip of inside to mimic what Bob Jewett suggests (bring the CB two rails out to the center of the table).

LOL... your expressions made me smile. I believe you were hitting the ball a bit too low. Look back to my original diagram and look at "exactly" where I was contacting the stack with that shot. I was hitting the top ball, I think you were contacting the outer ball on the second row. That akes all teh difference, as does the contact speed.

Many players tend to worry about 3 things:

1) Making the break ball
2) contacting the stack and getting a good spread
3) controlling the cue ball

You were consciously attending to all 3 -

When I have a shot like this, I make sure that the ball is going in - once that is solved - I need to concentrate on what I am going to do with the stack. I generally pick an exact spot on the stack to make contact with - and that becomes my top priority.

I always make sure not to draw my ball all the way up table - or to have it knock off of the side of the rack. Like you said, you were getting frustrated with it, and when you give control back to the elements of the table, things start to suck. At least when I do that, things really start to suck.

When making the break ball, there are 3 speeds -

1. Speed of the stroke
2. Speed of the cue ball
3. Speed of contact (with the stack)

There are different ways to manipulate each, and they can all be different. I have a few more shots like this that I can diagram, or videotape, threads such as this one are great learning tools.

mosconiac
10-15-2007, 10:03 AM
...threads such as this one are great learning tools.
You aren't kidding! I'm learning a lot from your comments and by reviewing the actual video to see where the OB entered the pocket, where the CB contacted the stack, how the balls spread after contact...all of these things are tough to judge accurately when in the heat of the moment. It's interesting when the facts (the video) differ from what I thought happened.

For example, I thought I was catching the upper ball in the gap in the early attempts because the CB ran so quickly off the stack. In fact, I was catching the top of the lower ball in the gap (the CB stayed on the tangent line due to the excessive speed).

Thanks for your input!

Blackjack
10-15-2007, 12:23 PM
You aren't kidding! I'm learning a lot from your comments and by reviewing the actual video to see where the OB entered the pocket, where the CB contacted the stack, how the balls spread after contact...all of these things are tough to judge accurately when in the heat of the moment. It's interesting when the facts (the video) differ from what I thought happened.

For example, I thought I was catching the upper ball in the gap in the early attempts because the CB ran so quickly off the stack. In fact, I was catching the top of the lower ball in the gap (the CB stayed on the tangent line due to the excessive speed).

Thanks for your input!

Here is a clearer diagram, along with some tips on how to properly control the cue ball (at least this is how I do it)...

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u151/Dsapolis/Break14_1-1.jpg

dave sutton
10-15-2007, 02:13 PM
Here is a clearer diagram, along with some tips on how to properly control the cue ball (at least this is how I do it)...



great pic... this is how i play it too. tip below center and tip of outside english

nick serdula
10-16-2007, 11:10 AM
Here is a clearer diagram, along with some tips on how to properly control the cue ball (at least this is how I do it)...

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u151/Dsapolis/Break14_1-1.jpg
The natual angle is straight into the 13 ball with a stop ball using a hair of right to drive the rock into the pack and a hair of botton to hold the cue back of the pack a half foot. This shot is is more consistant and shot harder. And bairly cueing the ball right forces the weight of the cueball left off a solid hit on the pack.
If you have no center ball control you have to follow the shot and avoid the corner pocket! I have to add I never liked shooting break shots from that far away from the beak ball.
This is why I don't play straight. It hurts my fragile little mind.:D
Nick :)

Danny Kuykendal
10-16-2007, 12:17 PM
I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but a lot depends on where you make the ball in the pocket. If you follow with straight high english and undercut the ball an inch or so (but still make it) you might hit a ball square in the rack and scratch. Or if you draw the ball and over cut it you might hit in between two balls and scratch. Sometimes it's a hard call.
Mizerak had the theory that on a more severe cut you followed; if the shot was more of a straight shot, you used draw or center and let the weight of the rack bring the cue ball back.

Danny

nick serdula
10-16-2007, 12:39 PM
I have to think about what others already know!
Nick :D

mosconiac
10-16-2007, 12:45 PM
The natual angle is straight into the 13 ball...
Actually, the tangent takes the CB directly into the "gap" between the 13 & 3. Check post#12 for an illustration. Anyway, this is the core of the coversation...do you follow or draw to avoid the danger of the gap?
I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but a lot depends on where you make the ball in the pocket...
I loosely discussed this in my first posting with a video of my follow shots (post#31). I mentioned that I tend to undercut that type of shot. I make adjustments for that fact when choosing how much follow and speed to use...all in an effort to avoid falling into the gap.
...Mizerak had the theory that on a more severe cut you followed; if the shot was more of a straight shot, you used draw or center and let the weight of the rack bring the cue ball back.
I learned this same general principle from Grady's break shots & key balls video. I believe there can be exceptions to the rule of thumb, but for most shots its applicable. For example, I am more confortable following this type of shot...that should weigh into my decision somewhere.

jdr
10-16-2007, 01:27 PM
Mizerak had the theory that on a more severe cut you followed; if the shot was more of a straight shot, you used draw or center and let the weight of the rack bring the cue ball back.


I was watching the John Schmidt - Thomas Engert video on Propoolvideo.com and it looked like they followed this rule of thumb. Interestingly, it looked like Engert played for the straighter shot and John played for the more severe cut. I wonder if it's a different school of strategy. (I'm very new to 14.1 :o )

Blackjack
10-16-2007, 02:54 PM
I was watching the John Schmidt - Thomas Engert video on Propoolvideo.com and it looked like they followed this rule of thumb. Interestingly, it looked like Engert played for the straighter shot and John played for the more severe cut. I wonder if it's a different school of strategy. (I'm very new to 14.1 :o )


JDR

Get a copy of John Schmidt's 245 ball run which is available on DVD. John explains the when he sees guys lining up straight on their break ball, that he knows that they aren't playing confidently. However, when he sees guys set up angled break shots such as the shot illustrated in this thread, he knows that these are the guys that are going to get nto the stack and run some high numbers.

If you are learning how to play the game, I believe that John's DVD is one of the best learning tools out there, along with anything that has Jim Rempe's name on it - and believe me - Grady's knowledge is incredible!

nick serdula
10-17-2007, 07:23 AM
From the object ball into the pocket is straight into the 13 is 90 degrees.
That is what I can control. If you do as I said you will do as most great straight players do. Smash the $hit out of them.
Nick :)