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Snorks
10-14-2007, 06:28 AM
How far do you recommend your cue being away from your chin? Seems like the traditional position is basically touching. Just wondering what most peoples opinion is... or does it even matter?

BlowFish
10-14-2007, 06:36 AM
Whatever is comfortable. I can make the chin touch the cue, but I can't sight well as it looks cross-eyed to me, plus my back neck will start to ache. I'll go as low as I can and I don't have any idea how low it is. But what I can assure you is, it's not touching the cue.

WesleyW
10-14-2007, 06:38 AM
How far do you recommend your cue being away from your chin? Seems like the traditional position is basically touching. Just wondering what most peoples opinion is... or does it even matter?

I don't think the traditional position is touching it. Touching it is more like a snooker stance. Most of the poolplayers I known don't touch it even close. But to me, I prefer being very close of touching it. If you wear glasses, I don't think touching it or being very close touching it is preferable.

pooltchr
10-14-2007, 08:43 AM
Whatever is comfortable. I can make the chin touch the cue, but I can't sight well as it looks cross-eyed to me, plus my back neck will start to ache. I'll go as low as I can and I don't have any idea how low it is. But what I can assure you is, it's not touching the cue.

Bingo!!! Since we all have different shapes and sizes, what works for one may not work for another. I think you should be as close as possible and still be comfortable. AF touches her chin to the cue, Buddy Hall probably can't. Both seem to do pretty well with their individual styles.
Steve

pdcue
10-14-2007, 09:07 AM
How far do you recommend your cue being away from your chin? Seems like the traditional position is basically touching. Just wondering what most peoples opinion is... or does it even matter?

For years I swung back and forth on head position.
It seemed I made tough shots better with my head low,
but the rest of my game degraded.

It recently dawned on me that Luther Lasiter, quite likely the
best shotmaker of all time, stood very high above the table.

FWIW - Fisher is down so low for the same reason every other
snooker player who can't pronounce an unvoiced 'R' is low -
Joe Davis stood that way.

Developing shot making skill is all about consistency, the lower
you are, the more likely your head, and therefore your eyes, will
be in the same position relative to the cue all the time.

Dale

Blackjack
10-14-2007, 09:07 AM
Bingo!!! Since we all have different shapes and sizes, what works for one may not work for another. I think you should be as close as possible and still be comfortable. AF touches her chin to the cue, Buddy Hall probably can't. Both seem to do pretty well with their individual styles.
Steve

I watched that Mosconi - Fats video the other day... Fatty shot standing up... head about 2 feet over the cue...

http://www.nndb.com/people/712/000062526/fats4-sized.jpghttp://media.pegasusnews.com/img/photos/2007/06/21/MinnesotaFats_Sm_t250.JPG

Jim Rempe stood a bit high over the cue also...
http://www.billiardsexpert.com/images/jimrempe1.jpg

But Nick Varner stay pretty low on the ball...

http://www.flapa.com/orlando/SOC/DSCN0155.JPG

So does Danny Harriman...
http://www.internationalpooltour.com/ipt_content/events_thepoolroom06/photo_images/enlarge/image48.jpg

and Thomas Engert...
http://www.professorqball.com/AdvHTML_Upload/bob2.jpg

and Francisco Bustamante...
http://www.snookerclub.com/worldcup2001/bustamanteshooting.jpg

as well as some "hack with a pump stroke" named "Efren"...
http://thoughtsinbinary.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/efren_judd_2.jpg

and the newly Crowned New Jersey State 14.1 Champion from NYC, Tony Robles...
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u151/Dsapolis/DSC_0052.jpg

Myself... I keep my chin in about the same position as Danny, Thomas, Francisco, Efren and Tony ... its the way I was taught in the beginning.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u151/Dsapolis/DCP00375.jpg

alstl
10-14-2007, 09:14 AM
Bingo!!! Since we all have different shapes and sizes, what works for one may not work for another. I think you should be as close as possible and still be comfortable. AF touches her chin to the cue, Buddy Hall probably can't. Both seem to do pretty well with their individual styles.
Steve

Perhaps touching the chin to the cue helps stabilize it for Allison because uses an open bridge all of the time.

Scott Lee
10-14-2007, 09:26 AM
As Blackjack mentioned, it may have more to do with how you learned. The truth is that it doesn't make any difference how high or low your head is over the cue. All that matters is that the cue is as level as reasonable to the table (based on the shot circumstances).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Blackjack
10-14-2007, 09:35 AM
Perhaps touching the chin to the cue helps stabilize it for Allison because uses an open bridge all of the time.

I would say that she uses it "most of the time"... after getting her BCA Instructors certification she started using the closed bridge which has made a big difference in her game - especially with her break shot. She doesn't use it often, still using the open bridge - because that was how she was taught. Here is a picture of Allison using the closed bridge... it took me forever to find a picture of it, but she does use it from time to time now.

http://www.wpba.com/images/SDSF1AlliAct.jpg

WesleyW
10-14-2007, 09:46 AM
As Blackjack mentioned, it may have more to do with how you learned. The truth is that it doesn't make any difference how high or low your head is over the cue. All that matters is that the cue is as level as reasonable to the table (based on the shot circumstances).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Don't agree with that. When you are having your chin lower, it's easier to see if your alignment is good. You can see from the CB to the OB. When standing higher, it's more difficult to see if the alignment is aiming perfect. For example, when a ball is blocking the CB, you need to lower your chin to see if the CB can passed the blocking ball to hit the OB. Without lowering your chin, you can't see it clear.

alstl
10-14-2007, 09:58 AM
I would say that she uses it "most of the time"... after getting her BCA Instructors certification she started using the closed bridge which has made a big difference in her game - especially with her break shot. She doesn't use it often, still using the open bridge - because that was how she was taught. Here is a picture of Allison using the closed bridge... it took me forever to find a picture of it, but she does use it from time to time now.

http://www.wpba.com/images/SDSF1AlliAct.jpg

That's interesting. Nobody ever taught me much about pool, but I use an open bridge and I put my chin on the cue. The open bridge came about because the only pool I ever played when I was a kid was snooker, and the open bridge just worked better. Chin on the cue kind of developed on its own, but I do think it helps stabilize the cue. Once in a while I use a closed bridge on power shots but I don't have the same confidence in it.

But, that's just me and I'm only a ball banger.

By the way, I saw Hohmann in a match and he took a more upright stance when kicking at a ball.

Scott Lee
10-14-2007, 10:00 AM
Don't agree with that. When you are having your chin lower, it's easier to see if your alignment is good. You can see from the CB to the OB. When standing higher, it's more difficult to see if the alignment is aiming perfect. For example, when a ball is blocking the CB, you need to lower your chin to see if the CB can passed the blocking ball to hit the OB. Without lowering your chin, you can't see it clear.

How high or low you stand over the cue has no bearing on your alignment. While some may "see" the balls better standing lower, many others (myself included) see them better from a higher perspective. Ultimately, like I said, it doesn't matter, as long as the cue is level.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

sde
10-14-2007, 10:25 AM
For example, when a ball is blocking the CB, you need to lower your chin to see if the CB can passed the blocking ball to hit the OB. Without lowering your chin, you can't see it clear.

From what I have been taught you should know if the CB passes the OB before you get down on the shot. Once you determine that the CB passes and you get down to shoot your focus should be on target OB and not on the almost blocking ball. imo

Steve

WesleyW
10-14-2007, 11:00 AM
How high or low you stand over the cue has no bearing on your alignment. While some may "see" the balls better standing lower, many others (myself included) see them better from a higher perspective. Ultimately, like I said, it doesn't matter, as long as the cue is level.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

That depends on what you are seeing better. If you are standing higher, you see the angle better. But when you are lower, you see the aiming spot better. It's like using a gun. If you have the gun closer to your eyes you will aim better.

Gerry
10-14-2007, 11:09 AM
I have tried both, and I don't think it matters that much. Whatever gets the ball in the hole IMO, and it's been proven that upright or low can both produce champions. At times I will get my chin on the cue and the cue touching my chest to help when I feel out of alignnment.

I do notice it helps to be lower on longer shots and upright on short ones, but thats just me.

I wonder why "most" 3C billiards players are more upright?

Gerry

pwd72s
10-14-2007, 11:23 AM
One thing I noted with almost all of the pics here...the eyes are focused on the object ball.

Fatboy
10-14-2007, 11:25 AM
my dad stood straight up and could make 2 balls in a row sometimes, Man Fats stands like my dad did RIP,

Me I'm in the middle and I think what ever works is what works, when I came up I tried different hights but with my back even then I just hada natural elevation off the cue, it was about the only part of my game I couldnt adjust, I have a friend who started when I did he plays MUCH better than me and he started high now he has a groove in his chin, over the years he got lower and lower.

WesleyW
10-14-2007, 11:38 AM
I have tried both, and I don't think it matters that much. Whatever gets the ball in the hole IMO, and it's been proven that upright or low can both produce champions. At times I will get my chin on the cue and the cue touching my chest to help when I feel out of alignnment.

I do notice it helps to be lower on longer shots and upright on short ones, but thats just me.

I wonder why "most" 3C billiards players are more upright?

Gerry

I've played billiard. If you stay to low it's harder to see the angle. When doing some practicing stroke, you like to now what the path is of the CB, how it travels 3 cushions. Sometimes you can change the angle (if you stay high), english etc. When you are down, it's down, you will not see if you want to/can adjust the shot.

Blackjack
10-14-2007, 11:43 AM
my dad stood straight up and could make 2 balls in a row sometimes, Man Fats stands like my dad did RIP,

Me I'm in the middle and I think what ever works is what works, when I came up I tried different hights but with my back even then I just hada natural elevation off the cue, it was about the only part of my game I couldnt adjust, I have a friend who started when I did he plays MUCH better than me and he started high now he has a groove in his chin, over the years he got lower and lower.

Here is a picture of grandfather (he died shortly after this photo was taken in 1987)...

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u151/Dsapolis/Luke_2.jpg

He stood up straight just like Fats also.

IIRC, Jimmy Caras, Cowboy Jimmy Moore, and Eddie Taylor had the same style.

alstl
10-14-2007, 11:55 AM
http://www.azbilliards.com/gallery/2005bigapple/P3310013.jpg

Feijen is interesting. Puts the cue beside/above his chin under his right (dominant?) eye. That's about as low as you can get. Hits 'em pretty straight too.

Blackjack
10-14-2007, 11:58 AM
http://www.azbilliards.com/gallery/2005bigapple/P3310013.jpg

Feijen is interesting. Puts the cue beside/above his chin under his right (dominant?) eye. That's about as low as you can get. Hits 'em pretty straight too.

I love that picture of Neils... is chin is actually BELOW the cue!

alstl
10-14-2007, 12:18 PM
I love that picture of Neils... is chin is actually BELOW the cue!

I first noticed him doing that while watching his 250+ straight pool video. I don't see many others doing it that way but it works for him.

Ktown D
10-14-2007, 12:21 PM
Look how low SD gets on the shot. The cue rubs his cheek.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e265/jda76/Shannon.jpg

dabarbr
10-14-2007, 12:21 PM
My personal opinion is that if you can get low enough to have the cue ball and the object ball in the line of sight you will not have to move your eyes as much when you need to.

If the pocket is also in the line of sight this makes the shot routine for me. If the pocket is not then the time for me to organize the shot is when I'm standing up before getting down. Then I use my minds eye to find the pocket.

I find that for shots that do not require for me to do much with the cue ball then the open bridge is my preference. This allows me to use it as a gun sight and there is less friction from my fingers so that I can be more precise in positioning the cue ball.

Fatboy
10-14-2007, 01:00 PM
when i go low i see it better but it screws up my stroke, so to me its just a natural position that players find,


In the UK they teach a 4 point body contact with the cue both hands(open bridge) chest and chin, i saw it on TV in Germany.

Fatboy
10-14-2007, 01:09 PM
Here is a picture of grandfather (he died shortly after this photo was taken in 1987)...

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u151/Dsapolis/Luke_2.jpg

He stood up straight just like Fats also.

IIRC, Jimmy Caras, Cowboy Jimmy Moore, and Eddie Taylor had the same style.


cool pic thanks, I love old people-they are so smart and experienced, i awalys take time to listen to them,

CaptiveBred
10-14-2007, 01:24 PM
I go real low. Sometimes my chin touches, other times its a couple inches away...

I do it for aiming purposes. I can sight better (like a gun) if I am right over the shaft. This game requires the most accurate precision to run out. So I go as low as I can to get more accurate...

I wish I could go higher to give my back a rest. I know in years to come this will be an issue. I just can't get myself to relearn aiming from an upright position. I already know what I know and when I stand up, I feel lost. Some shots are just out of my skill level while standing up...

Surely, if I learned this way, I could do it cause I've seen many top level players do it...

For now, I am staying low cause thats what I know... and I think everybody aims better low (think guns again)

!Smorgass Bored
10-14-2007, 01:31 PM
How far my chin is from my cue was dependant on upon how far my stomach was from my feet.
The closer my stomach got to my feet, the farther away my chin got from my cue.
Doug
( now, one of my chins touches my CHEST ) :)

mattman
10-14-2007, 09:09 PM
How far my chin is from my cue was dependant on upon how far my stomach was from my feet.
The closer my stomach got to my feet, the farther away my chin got from my cue.
Doug
( now, one of my chins touches my CHEST ) :)
I can relate. I was playing around with this today, before reading this thread. I was trying to get my head as low as I could. I felt a little more confident with aiming, but it was just too uncomfortable. I tried with my chin on the stick.....couldn't be done. I typically have my chin 3"-4" about the stick. I played in a tournament with a guy last night that probably stood about 6'4". He could put his chin to the stick, but his stance was with his feet about 6' apart....very awkard looking, but seems to work for him.

JimS
10-15-2007, 06:34 AM
I don't recommend anything. I'm not qualified. I play w/my chin from 1" to 4" above my cue... I think.. never measured.

Bigjohn
10-15-2007, 06:53 AM
I've played billiard. If you stay to low it's harder to see the angle. When doing some practicing stroke, you like to now what the path is of the CB, how it travels 3 cushions. Sometimes you can change the angle (if you stay high), english etc. When you are down, it's down, you will not see if you want to/can adjust the shot.

All the old time players stood up over the ball. You can see the angles better from higher up. Most players of today like to aim the cue like a rifle

3kushn
10-15-2007, 07:28 AM
How high or low you stand over the cue has no bearing on your alignment. While some may "see" the balls better standing lower, many others (myself included) see them better from a higher perspective. Ultimately, like I said, it doesn't matter, as long as the cue is level.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Here's how I see it. First of all comfort and consistency is what's most important. I see trade offs although. Of course with good training and practice, the trade offs can be overcome and is why a comfortable, consistant and solid stance is paramount to all else assuming

With your chin in the cue or very close you have a better perspective on tip placement plus you'll have a consistent anchor point for head placement shooting down the cue like a rifle.

Standing taller you have a better perspective on the shot angle as well as a better view of more if not all of the table, but exact tip placement is harder to see due to the parallax effect.

Example
I love watching matches where the camera is above and in the center of the table. A perfect vantage point to see all the angles but a terrible vantage point to see how the player is hitting the CB.

kildegirl
10-15-2007, 06:22 PM
How far do you recommend your cue being away from your chin? Seems like the traditional position is basically touching. Just wondering what most peoples opinion is... or does it even matter? DOES NOT MATTER

Klopek
10-15-2007, 07:16 PM
0000000000

3andstop
10-15-2007, 07:59 PM
Don't ask me why this comes to mind. Maybe the pot from back in the 60's. :)

I remember a science show with Carl Sagan once upon a time where he talked about the possibility of a 4th or 5th dimension.

He equated the possibility with hypothetical people who lived in a 2 dimensional world pondering the possibility of a 3 dimensional world.

He dramatized it by placing an apple on a white piece of paper describing it as a 3 dimensional object. He said of course the people who live in 2 dimensional land see it this way ......... and he took the apple, dabbed it on an ink blotter, and made a stamp image of its base on the white paper. He said all they can see is this shape because they are not looking at it from its full dimension. He said they walk all around it without seeing it since they are viewing from a different perspective.

Anyway, I think pool is played in a parallel plane high and low of 2.25 inches. Viewing it as close to parallel to that plane as possible offers a better perspective for me.

Now that was deep, but more fun than just saying I get low on the cue ..... :D

Gerry
10-16-2007, 04:45 AM
Don't ask me why this comes to mind. Maybe the pot from back in the 60's. :)

I remember a science show with Carl Sagan once upon a time where he talked about the possibility of a 4th or 5th dimension.

He equated the possibility with hypothetical people who lived in a 2 dimensional world pondering the possibility of a 3 dimensional world.

He dramatized it by placing an apple on a white piece of paper describing it as a 3 dimensional object. He said of course the people who live in 2 dimensional land see it this way ......... and he took the apple, dabbed it on an ink blotter, and made a stamp image of its base on the white paper. He said all they can see is this shape because they are not looking at it from its full dimension. He said they walk all around it without seeing it since they are viewing from a different perspective.

Anyway, I think pool is played in a parallel plane high and low of 2.25 inches. Viewing it as close to parallel to that plane as possible offers a better perspective for me.

Now that was deep, but more fun than just saying I get low on the cue ..... :D


Dude....quit Bogarting and pass that around :p

3andstop
10-16-2007, 06:11 AM
LOL Gerry, all that was a long time ago. Now I snort Rolaids and do shots of Geritol. :)



........................................ I think............ :confused:

crappoolguy
10-16-2007, 06:30 AM
My chin is about 1mm away from my cue.

ARM9BALLER
10-16-2007, 07:53 AM
I tried to see if I could touch my chin to my cue. The reason why I can't is because my elbow on my stroke arm won't go much higher past the level of my back. I can't touch my elbows together either.

pdcue
10-16-2007, 11:28 AM
That depends on what you are seeing better. If you are standing higher, you see the angle better. But when you are lower, you see the aiming spot better. It's like using a gun. If you have the gun closer to your eyes you will aim better.

Not to defend Scott here, but I think you are making the all too common
mistake of thinking that what works best for you, is best for everybody.

FWIW it is NOT true that one can see the aim point any better
by being down lower. If you do, that would indicate you have a flaw
in your alignment.

Of course, I can't be sure without seeing you play, but that would
be my best guess.

Perhaps you should take a lesson from Scott so he could observe
and advise.

SDale

Thunderball
10-16-2007, 11:53 AM
Interesting poll.

I say that bnecause I've been wondering about this myself quite a bit lately.It seems I'm all over the map when it comes to this matter.I go from goatee rubbing to almost upright and anywhere in between it seems.

The best player in my town (quite a few of you know him I imagine) stands as tall as anyone I've ever seen play and he can flat out play.

I voted doesn't matter fwiw.

I do however need to figure out what best for me...but how to decide?

kildegirl
10-16-2007, 12:06 PM
How far do you recommend your cue being away from your chin? Seems like the traditional position is basically touching. Just wondering what most peoples opinion is... or does it even matter?

DOES NOT MATTER. PLAYERS SHOULD DO WHAT THEY LIKE TO DO, AND THAT RELATES TO THEIR COMFORT ZONE. IN ANY TYPE OF GAME OR ENDEAVOR, THE PLAYER SHOULD ALWAYS DO IT HIS WAY. TRADITION NEVER POCKETED ANY BALL.

Patrick Johnson
10-16-2007, 01:22 PM
I think you are making the all too common
mistake of thinking that what works best for you, is best for everybody.

FWIW it is NOT true that one can see the aim point any better
by being down lower. If you do, that would indicate you have a flaw
in your alignment.

I think you just made the same common mistake. Some people (I think most people, as a matter of fact, judging by how many put their chins on the cue) do see what they're pointing their stick at better when their eyes are closer to it. If that wasn't true, rifle marksmen wouldn't do it so consistently.

pj
chgo

dabarbr
10-16-2007, 02:12 PM
I think you just made the same common mistake. Some people (I think most people, as a matter of fact, judging by how many put their chins on the cue) do see what they're pointing their stick at better when their eyes are closer to it. If that wasn't true, rifle marksmen wouldn't do it so consistently.

pj
chgo
Good point. You don't see many riflemen shooting from the hip.

Dead Crab
10-16-2007, 04:42 PM
I certainly shoot better if I get my chin down on the cue. This may be because my aiming points are at the bottom of the ball. If you are aiming on the equator, ghost balling, or using fractional ball aiming, it may be less of an issue.

I'm none too flexible, so I have to bend my knees a lot to get my chin on the cue. Probably doesn't look too smooth, but at least for now, it is what works.

pdcue
10-16-2007, 11:58 PM
I think you just made the same common mistake. Some people (I think most people, as a matter of fact, judging by how many put their chins on the cue) do see what they're pointing their stick at better when their eyes are closer to it. If that wasn't true, rifle marksmen wouldn't do it so consistently.

pj
chgo

And your mistake would be not understanding that the key to
shotmaking is not where your eyes are, but that they are in the same
position relative to the cue every time. For most people, this is MUCH
more likely to happen if they play with their head down on the cue.

That fact should not be misinterpreted as supporting the premise that
being lower, in and of itself, results in better shotmaking skill.
It doesn't.

A little rifle knowledge is a dangerous thing.

There are many similarities between shooting a rifle and shooting
a cue ball.

But don't overdo the points in common and loose sight of the
vital diferences. I know you understand the important fact that one
propels a projectile straight out of the barrel, directly at a target
which is much larger than the bullit itself.

Hitting a cue ball at an object ball is a much different kettle of fish.

Dale

Patrick Johnson
10-17-2007, 10:06 AM
I'm none too flexible, so I have to bend my knees a lot to get my chin on the cue. Probably doesn't look too smooth, but at least for now, it is what works.

I have the same problem, and I worried about bending my knees a slightly different amount each time - until I started spreading my feet more. That seems to help (although it might look even goofier).

pj
chgo