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veilside81
10-15-2007, 08:33 AM
Hi everyone, I want to get better on long jacked up draw shots, how do you suggest to practice them?
I'm having nearly no problems on stopping the cue ball.. but when I want to put the draw in I can't pocket it anymore and it seems to me that I'm hitting it with to much power.. :confused: :confused:

this is one of the shots :

http://cuetable.com/P/?@1AWmo4QThc1uCMA@

And if anyone can explain me why I am getting the cueball jumping when trying the masse shot to get out of this situations?:confused:

http://cuetable.com/P/?@3AJUe4PIWc4kIWc3kHAf3kIDu3kIDs3qANoCue_Up_to_lik e_45_degrees_hitting_pretty_firm_with_right_englis h.&ZZ1uAxP@

Thanks to everyone for the patience.. :D

Southpaw
10-15-2007, 08:38 AM
You have to have a great stroke for these shots. The best advice is to stay down and follow through.

Southpaw

Jude Rosenstock
10-15-2007, 09:14 AM
With all due respect, long jacked-up shots have no practical value. Every single time I've ever encountered such a shot, I practically write off the outcome. Prior to shooting, I say, "WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!" (anything you say when you are on an amusement park ride will do)


Being successful requires strong mechanics but even the very best players in the world are going to miss this shot more often than not.

PoolSponge
10-15-2007, 09:48 AM
First to the long shot, practice staying loose and smooth. Try not to hit it too hard or it jumps and you lose the spin. Lots of smooth follow through. Practice the shot as close to the rail as you can without needing to jack up and get the confidence in how strong you need to stroke to get the right action. Do that 15 times. Now pull the CB back and jack up a small amount, repeat 15 times. Now you are confident and ready to try the full pin shot you described.

Second shot, you are hitting down on the CB and probably pretty firm. That makes it jump. It is a great shot to own. If you are simply try to spin a masse out, stroke smoother not harder. This is a tough shot not to jump.

Just my 2 cents.

PS: although I tend to agree that these shots are not very high percentage, if you can make it usually that can be a match changer and really damage your opponent mentally.

Scott Lee
10-15-2007, 09:55 AM
With all due respect, long jacked-up shots have no practical value. Every single time I've ever encountered such a shot, I practically write off the outcome. Prior to shooting, I say, "WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!" (anything you say when you are on an amusement park ride will do)


Being successful requires strong mechanics but even the very best players in the world are going to miss this shot more often than not.

Jude is absolutely correct here. If you're in this situation you really screwed up. Most pro players will play safe before taking on a flyer like the first shot (played the way you are asking about). Simple physics dictates that almost ANY player, pro or not, will have a 60-75% probability of making some kind of cueing error in attempting this shot. If you're able to stop the CB and pocket the OB consistently here, you're doing better than most players will.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Jude Rosenstock
10-15-2007, 09:59 AM
PS: although I tend to agree that these shots are not very high percentage, if you can make it usually that can be a match changer and really damage your opponent mentally.

This should never be a determinant. The only thing that should go through your mind when making a decision is whether or not it's the best option you can find. Get into head games and a lot of times, you're going to find out you're the only one playing.

The goal is to win and to be as unemotional about it as possible. I mean, could you imagine if a sports announcer asked Mika Immonen why he decided to go for a really tough shot and his response was, "I decided to take a low risk shot because I thought it would upset my opponent." No, Mika is going to say, "I felt it was my best chance to win." That's it. That's the only thing you should consider.

ez2h8
10-15-2007, 10:21 AM
I agree with Scott and PoolSponge about the first shot. The goal is not to get yourself in that situation and if you do, just pocketing the object ball is a feather in your hat. Trying to draw back is very tough. I also agree with Sponge's suggestion for practicing by starting off the rail and working backwards. It's at least a good shot to practice and know but wouldn't get hung up on it by no means.

As for the second shot, I can do this one and I believe I am not jacked up to 45 degree's. I think it's more like 25-30 degree's. It feels like an elevated stroke shot, but by no means does it feel like a masse stroke/stance. To be honest, it's more like my stance/stroke for jumping - over say - half a ball. I also think that the CB comes off the table slightly before hitting the OB but there is so much spin on the CB after contact with the OB, the english takes.

ez

klockdoc
10-15-2007, 10:23 AM
Good points from everyone. This is an extremely low percentage shot especially if I'm shooting it...:)

But, One thing I would mention. After your preliminary set-up, look at the cue ball last.

I lower my stance to line up, gradually raise to position, then make sure I hit the point I've chosen to hit the cue ball.

Good Luck

VonRhett
10-15-2007, 10:28 AM
BINGO! A masse stroke won't quite work here. It's really a stun- or run-stun stroke. I'll hit a few 2nite, but I think I just barely elevate the butt, no where near 45 degrees.
-von


As for the second shot, I can do this one and I believe I am not jacked up to 45 degree's. I think it's more like 25-30 degree's. It feels like an elevated stroke shot, but by no means does it feel like a masse stroke/stance. To be honest, it's more like my stance/stroke for jumping - over say - half a ball. I also think that the CB comes off the table slightly before hitting the OB but there is so much spin on the CB after contact with the OB, the english takes.

ez

Jude Rosenstock
10-15-2007, 10:41 AM
Seriously, I'm not going to say I have never played either of these shots but you've managed to pick shots that nobody in the world is consistent with.

In regards to the second shot, the bottom line is you have to work within the confines of the game. You cannot jack-up between 30 and 45 degrees and not expect it to jump. It's gonna jump and that has to weigh in to your decision on how to play it. If you're very close (I'm talking inches) to the object ball, playing a masse is very sound. If you're two feet away, it's very risky. I cannot imagine very many scenarios where a risk like that is worth taking other than I'm pummeling my opponent and don't care or I'm getting pummeled and I don't care. If you care, there has to be something else you can do.

Bob Jewett
10-15-2007, 10:54 AM
Hi everyone, I want to get better on long jacked up draw shots, how do you suggest to practice them? .. Thanks to everyone for the patience.. :D
As others have pointed out, there are probably more productive things for you to practice. But if you're set on doing this...

Use progressive practice. Start with an easier version of the shot that you can make 50% of the time. Make the shot harder as you get to better than 50%. A general description of the practice method is available at http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1992-12.pdf and a number of other drill examples are in articles listed at http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

veilside81
10-16-2007, 02:33 AM
Thanks for all the answers... I asked about this shots because they both happened to me in the last weekly league.

The first long draw shot happened in the semi final, we were tied at 6-6 race to 7, and I was playing a really though guy with which I was supposed to lose but here it is what he left me and what I shot for the victory :

http://cuetable.com/P/?@2HYBb4IBEY3PTxW3kTxW2kXkN3kXWe3kXOd3kXOd1uCMA@

I just couldn't see any good safety against this guy..

For the other shot it happened earlier than the semifinal and the layout of the table was that I had both long cushions blocked and I needed to go uptable for the 2 but I jumped and scratched... The layout was approximately like this:

http://cuetable.com/P/?@3AIWe1BFdU1CMYs4DPmh3EXmq2FDpf4GYly3HTXW4ISug4PG Kc4kGKc3kGCe3kLro3kLrm2qWEDThis_is_what_I_wanted_t o_do_but_scratched_by_jumping_out_of_the_table...&ZZ1uAYP@

Even here I didn't see another solution to run the table..:mad:

predator
10-16-2007, 03:19 AM
veilside81, great shot #1.
I think shot #2 should have been cushion first. That would bring the cue ball far up the table for the 2 ball, could even end up perfectly. Should you miss, a safety is very probable.

Mike Templeton
10-16-2007, 06:02 AM
Good points from everyone. This is an extremely low percentage shot especially if I'm shooting it...:)

But, One thing I would mention. After your preliminary set-up, look at the cue ball last.

I lower my stance to line up, gradually raise to position, then make sure I hit the point I've chosen to hit the cue ball.

Good Luck
Klockdoc is correct in that you should look at the cue ball last. If you are like me, it will improve your pocketing percentage at least 50%.

Mike

8ballEinstein
10-16-2007, 06:21 AM
One of the things that made Keith McCready a freak in his younger days was that he would go for these shots and make them consistently - AND MAKE IT LOOK EASY! I've watched him carefully on these shots and I'm certain he was looking at the object ball last, just like any other shot.

Andrew Manning
10-16-2007, 07:32 AM
Here's how I'd play 'em. Each diagram has two pages.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2HYBb4IBEY3PTxW2cYBb2cbjw3kTxW2kXsL2kYjE@2Hbjw4I BEY2PYjE4dBEY4dcpi4ddOr2kYjE3kBlW3kBlk2kBRL@

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AIWe1BFdU1CMYs4DPmh3EXmq2FDpf4GYly3HTXW4ISug4PG Kc3UIWe3Uchh3Ucps4kGKc3kFtd4kBtR@3Acps1BFdU1CMYs4D Pmh3EXmq2FDpf4GYly3HTXW4ISug4PBtR1VFdU1VGCl4VbWi4V XVt2aDpf2aGCk2aTxL4kBtR1kEvG2kBUY@

There's no way I'd play either of your shots as diagrammed because I'd be lucky to execute them successfully 1 in 10 tries.

-Andrew

cuetable
10-16-2007, 08:46 AM
http://CueTable.com/P/?@2GTly3HKjk4IIvk3PBEk2bTly2bbrt3kBEk2kTEj3kCSj@2G Tly3HKjk4IIvk3PBEk2bTly2bbHS1bbjA1bHpg3kBEk2kRYx2k Phk4kEWE@

I believe this is a shot Efren pulled off one time at hardtime billiards. The cue ball was frozen to the rail. He came to the table, shaked his head, jacked up, fired the 7 in and drew the cue ball back to the same spot.

WEEEEEEAH!

I am always curious about the stroke needed. I know I would get another "it's just magic!" if I ask him.

If this shot comes to me in a match, I would aim to cross corner short and avoid the double kiss based on the way it's set up. (see page 2)

thyme3421
10-16-2007, 08:53 AM
Thanks for all the answers... I asked about this shots because they both happened to me in the last weekly league.

The first long draw shot happened in the semi final, we were tied at 6-6 race to 7, and I was playing a really though guy with which I was supposed to lose but here it is what he left me and what I shot for the victory :

http://cuetable.com/P/?@2HYBb4IBEY3PTxW3kTxW2kXkN3kXWe3kXOd3kXOd1uCMA@

snip ... snip
Even here I didn't see another solution to run the table..:mad:

I agree with pretty much everyone else... #1, risky shot... my first thought was Mike Massey would shoot that at a show, not in a game. Congrats on makin' that ball.

#2, the person that said they'd play it at 20-30 degrees... I completely agree with. When I'm doing a jump shot, I hit it at about 45-50 degress... then it leaves the table.
Any time you're hitting down on the CB it's going to bounce, even just a little bit, but the more down you hit, the more it'll bounce. If you're hitting shots like this, you probably already know that.

As far as getting better at shot #2, you could bring the CB and OB closer... less than a chalk apart... hit it a few times... then move the OB farther out.


You couldn't use low left (about 7:30-8 o'clock) english and bring it 3 rails out to the 2?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AIWe1BFdU1CMYs4DPmh3EXmq2FDpf4GYly3HTXW4ISug4PG Kc4kGKc3kFlc3kBUk4kbRs3kaxN3kMaIzcXjWjVjUj2qWED&ZZ4uCUL@

Cajun_Pool
10-16-2007, 08:56 AM
Here's how I'd play 'em. Each diagram has two pages.

Just curious... why wouldn't you hit the CB with some upper right and send it down table to get on the 2?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AIWe1BFdU1CMYs4DPmh3EXmq2FDpf4GYly3HTXW4ISug4PG Kc3UIWe3Uchh3Ucps4kGKc3kFld3kVJo3kbVa2kLNv2kLNv@3A cps1BFdU1CMYs4DPmh3EXmq2FDpf4GYly3HTXW4ISug4PBtR1V FdU1VGCl4VbWi4VXVt2aDpf2aGCk2aTxL4kBtR1kEvG2kBUY@

Jude Rosenstock
10-16-2007, 09:05 AM
Just curious... why wouldn't you hit the CB with some upper right and send it down table to get on the 2?



Beause you would follow right into the corner pocket. The whole point of this thread is that you're dead straight.

Andrew Manning
10-16-2007, 09:08 AM
Just curious... why wouldn't you hit the CB with some upper right and send it down table to get on the 2?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AIWe1BFdU1CMYs4DPmh3EXmq2FDpf4GYly3HTXW4ISug4PG Kc3UIWe3Uchh3Ucps4kGKc3kFld3kVJo3kbVa2kLNv2kLNv@3A cps1BFdU1CMYs4DPmh3EXmq2FDpf4GYly3HTXW4ISug4PBtR1V FdU1VGCl4VbWi4VXVt2aDpf2aGCk2aTxL4kBtR1kEvG2kBUY@

Because it's dead straight. High right english just follows the 1 into the pocket. The path you diagrammed requires missing the shot on the 1 ball pretty badly to make the CB take that route (unless you're playing on 8-inch pockets).

-Andrew

td873
10-16-2007, 09:29 AM
Hi everyone, I want to get better on long jacked up draw shots, how do you suggest to practice them?
I'm having nearly no problems on stopping the cue ball.. but when I want to put the draw in I can't pocket it anymore and it seems to me that I'm hitting it with to much power.. :confused: :confused:

Rather than discuss the merits (or lack thereof) of shooting jacked up draw shots, there are some things you can do to improve your chances of making these types of shots. The real value is in short jacked up shots that come up quite frequently. In fact, if you are tall enough, you can shoot a jacked-up draw shot with the ball frozen to the rail.

1) As you know, to put draw on the cue you have to hit below center. But when shooting jacked up, your eyes will mislead you -> because you are hitting the cue ball with the TOP part of the tip and NOT the bottom part. When sighting, you think you are aiming correctly, but you end up hitting the cue ball with the middle (or worse bottom) part of the tip - which will result in less than favorable results. The trick is aiming a little "lower" than you think you should to get draw.

2) When jacked up, you should choke up on your grip to avoid having to shoot side arm. Adding an element of "side arm" is one of the top reasons that people miss "simple" jacked up shots. Shooting a table length draw shot side arm amplifies these errors.

3) DON'T hit the ball as hard as you think you should. The tendency with these types of shots is to overstroke the ball - again amplifying any errors in your stroke. On this shot in particular (when striking a cue ball jacked up), it will be hopping down the table [not rolling] so it won't be losing much back spin due to friction. In your diagram, you can draw the ball all the way back to the starting point with a medium stroke.

4) Get your angle right. In cooperation with #1 above, you have to contact the cue ball at the right point, but it has to be at a favorable angle as well. This is dictated by the distance from the rail. Closer than a ball from the rail dramatically increases the difficulty of this shot as your shooting angle must increase, thus increasing the likelihood of a sidearm swipe at the ball. As the cue ball gets farther from the rail, the angle goes down, so the shot starts to get easier.

5) Practice: start with the object ball on the spot, and shoot it in the corner jacked up. You can develop a feel for stop and draw on this "easy" setup shot. Alter the cue ball's position when you're practicing. Just keep in mind, that if the cue ball is still hopping when it hits the object ball it can cause some unintended results: cutting the object ball, jumping the cue ball off the table surface, and even jumping the object ball off the table surface.

6) The Test: Put the cue ball 1 chalk from the rail on the first diamond and put the object ball 1 diamond from the pocket just off the rail -> everythign should be nice and straight in. Freeze the 9-ball on the middle spot. It is possible to draw the cue ball back to where you started and shoot the 9 in the corner. It's not a gimme and I would never shoot it in a game - but at least it will give you a point of reference to guage your jacked up shooting. It looks kinda like this:
http://CueTable.com/P/?@1AYFC3IAWg4PNde4kNde1kXvo4kRdi


One last thing: In my opinion, you should never look at the cue ball last on any shot unless you are only concerned with the cue ball's results. You will dramatically reduce your pocketing success rate by doing so, although the cue ball may in fact draw properly.

-td

whitewolf
10-16-2007, 09:37 AM
[QUOTE=Jude Rosenstock]With all due respect, long jacked-up shots have no practical value. Every single time I've ever encountered such a shot, I practically write off the outcomwysiwyg=0

Jude Rosenstock
10-16-2007, 09:47 AM
[QUOTE=Jude Rosenstock]With all due respect, long jacked-up shots have no practical value. Every single time I've ever encountered such a shot, I practically write off the outcomwysiwyg=0

I said this because I think it's important to understand that nobody makes everything all the time. There are going to be scenarios where you're the underdog. Assuming there are no alternatives and this is the best play, all you can do is try your best and hope things work out. Citing every player you've ever seen make this shot with consistency is a waste of time. I once got into a proposition bet with a C player who could make this shot 9 of 10. It was one of the most insane things I ever saw. However, I'm certain if it ever came up in a game scenario, he'd dog his face off.

ez2h8
10-16-2007, 10:05 AM
Thanks for all the answers... I asked about this shots because they both happened to me in the last weekly league.

The first long draw shot happened in the semi final, we were tied at 6-6 race to 7, and I was playing a really though guy with which I was supposed to lose but here it is what he left me and what I shot for the victory :

http://cuetable.com/P/?@2HYBb4IBEY3PTxW3kTxW2kXkN3kXWe3kXOd3kXOd1uCMA@

I just couldn't see any good safety against this guy..

For the other shot it happened earlier than the semifinal and the layout of the table was that I had both long cushions blocked and I needed to go uptable for the 2 but I jumped and scratched... The layout was approximately like this:

http://cuetable.com/P/?@3AIWe1BFdU1CMYs4DPmh3EXmq2FDpf4GYly3HTXW4ISug4PG Kc4kGKc3kGCe3kLro3kLrm2qWEDThis_is_what_I_wanted_t o_do_but_scratched_by_jumping_out_of_the_table...&ZZ1uAYP@

Even here I didn't see another solution to run the table..:mad:

Another suggestion for the first shot if there looks to be a slight angle is serious top english. Looks like you would avoid the scratch in the corner pocket. I would try this if the table is playing fast. But either way, it's a tough shot :)

Second shot: The masse shot is possible, but like another poster suggested, rail first with the CB with high center/center right english is very natural and what I would play instead. The safe that is possible here is to bank the 1ball off the foot rail to the side rail behind the 8ball with a little upper right english. CB should end up next to the 8ball and 1ball on the other side. Leaves a challenging shot for him with no "given" pocket to make the 1ball in.

Food for thought.
ez

Scott Lee
10-16-2007, 10:14 AM
1) As you know, to put draw on the cue you have to hit below center. But when shooting jacked up, your eyes will mislead you -> because you are hitting the cue ball with the TOP part of the tip and NOT the bottom part. When sighting, you think you are aiming correctly, but you end up hitting the cue ball with the middle (or worse bottom) part of the tip - which will result in less than favorable results. The trick is aiming a little "lower" than you think you should to get draw.

-td

I'm very curious...how is it possible to shoot a jacked up shot, and strike the CB with the bottom edge of the tip? I find this to be impossible.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

td873
10-16-2007, 10:31 AM
I'm very curious...how is it possible to shoot a jacked up shot, and strike the CB with the bottom edge of the tip? I find this to be impossible.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
To hit with the bottom edge indicates you have hit with top english, i.e., the bottom of the tip strikes the cue ball. Clearly not impossible or improbable, and sometimes desired, i.e., the curve around shot [frozen to the 8 ball and high inside english to pocket a ball in the corner]. Virtually every trick shot artist worth his salt shoots this - and it is invariably attempted at every trick shot exhibition or contest...

A very trivial example is jacked up over an object ball and putting top english on the cue. This results in being jacked up and hitting with the bottom edge of the tip. I would diagram it, but it seems fairly intuitive and quite simple.

As a technical matter, when viewing the cue ball from a jacked up position, take the plane intersecting the center of the cue ball. Striking the cue ball above this plane should result in using the bottom part of the tip (because both the tip and the cue ball are curved). The closer to the center plane you get, the closer to using the middle of the tip. And draw is achieved by hitting with the top of the tip's curved surface.

-td

[Edit] added diagram. My 2 minute MS Paint picture is quite crude, but you should get the gist. As you can see, the first cue is jacked up and hits the cue tip on the bottom. The second cue is hitting at about the middle of the tip, and the last cue is hitting a pretty extreme angle with draw (yeah, I can't use paint) - but contacting on the top of the tip anyway. For the top shot, you should always be aware of a double hit - or even a ferrule hit after you strike the cue ball. You can continue to increase the angle, but then you have to continue to change your angle of approach to hit with the bottom of the tip. At some point, the nomenclature top and bottom is lost, since you are approaching verticle. Front and back may be better then.

http://td873.enteronline.net//Pool/ContactPoints.bmp

Neil
10-16-2007, 07:47 PM
..............

td873
10-16-2007, 08:23 PM
Hi everyone, I want to get better on long jacked up draw shots, how do you suggest to practice them?
I'm having nearly no problems on stopping the cue ball.. but when I want to put the draw in I can't pocket it anymore and it seems to me that I'm hitting it with to much power.. :confused: :confused:

this is one of the shots :

http://CueTable.com/P/?@1AYFC3IAWg4PNde4kNde1kXvo4kRdi

With the cue ball 1 ball away from the rail and the object ball at the other end of the table about 1 diamond from the pocket, I figure I have just under a 50% chance of making the ball and drawing the length of the table jacked up. The hardest part is making the ball ;) Getting the draw is just a side effect. For me, this is too low of a percentage to shoot for the cheese. But just playing around, it's pretty cool to do.

As for execution: you don't need a huge amount of angle to draw the length of the table. Only about 30-40 degrees. Any more than this and you'll be standing on your toes (if you are short like me). Aim to strike the cue ball below the plane through the center of the cue ball looking at it at the jacked up angle. Oh, I like to use a closed bridge (oddly enough). Choke up on the cue about one hand or just a bit more to keep the side swing out of it. Shoot firm, but NOT hard. It's the same speed that you would need for a normal table length draw shot - and no harder.

Hope this helps!

-td

I made a video of this shot. Youtube video is processing it now. It should be done shortly and I'll post the link.

Scott Lee
10-16-2007, 08:42 PM
To hit with the bottom edge indicates you have hit with top english, i.e., the bottom of the tip strikes the cue ball. Clearly not impossible or improbable, and sometimes desired, i.e., the curve around shot [frozen to the 8 ball and high inside english to pocket a ball in the corner]. Virtually every trick shot artist worth his salt shoots this - and it is invariably attempted at every trick shot exhibition or contest...

A very trivial example is jacked up over an object ball and putting top english on the cue. This results in being jacked up and hitting with the bottom edge of the tip. I would diagram it, but it seems fairly intuitive and quite simple.



Well sure, when you're talking trick shots or masse's. I was talking about the context of the OP's first shot. No way to jack up there, draw the CB back, and hit the bottom edge of the cueball.

Scott Lee ~ trick shot artist worth his salt
www.poolknowledge.com

td873
10-16-2007, 08:47 PM
Well sure, when you're talking trick shots or masse's. I was talking about the context of the OP's first shot. No way to jack up there, draw the CB back, and hit the bottom edge of the cueball.

Scott Lee ~ trick shot artist worth his salt
www.poolknowledge.com
Correct. I'm not sure why you are trying to create a dispute where none exists. If you re-read my post, hitting with "top" (bottom of the cue tip) is a mis-hit and will NOT impart draw. In no way was I implying that you could draw with top. Perhaps it was just a misread, although I thought it was clear. Here it is again just to clarify for anyone else that didn't catch it.

1) As you know, to put draw on the cue you have to hit below center. But when shooting jacked up, your eyes will mislead you -> because you are hitting the cue ball with the TOP part of the tip and NOT the bottom part. When sighting, you think you are aiming correctly, but you end up hitting the cue ball with the middle (or worse bottom) part of the tip - which will result in less than favorable results. The trick is aiming a little "lower" than you think you should to get draw.
As you can see (bolded portion), if you are mis-sighting the shot, then you may hit with the wrong part of the tip, thus NOT imparting draw as intended. So just to clarify for those that didn't get it, you must hit with the top part of the tip to impart draw. As Scott properly pointed out.

However it IS possible to hit with the bottom part of the tip when jacked up - but this will impart TOP spin and NOT draw.

-td

Scott Lee
10-16-2007, 09:00 PM
Thomas...Understood. I did read the post correctly, but I misinterpreted what you wrote. In context with the OP's first shot, if you hit topspin you'd either jump the CB (maybe), or trap it under the tip. My apologies...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

td873
10-16-2007, 09:04 PM
Thomas...Understood. I did read the post correctly, but I misinterpreted what you wrote. In context with the OP's first shot, if you hit topspin you'd either jump the CB (maybe), or trap it under the tip. My apologies...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
No apologies necessary. Sometimes text without context creates ambiguities.

And yeah, you would most likely trap the cue ball at the speeds we're talking about. And nobody wants the sound of ferrule on cue ball. Especially those of us using ivory. ;)

-td

td873
10-16-2007, 09:33 PM
YouTube Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ8S2RC5_kw

Best I could do on short notice ;)
-td

With the cue ball 1 ball away from the rail and the object ball at the other end of the table about 1 diamond from the pocket, I figure I have just under a 50% chance of making the ball and drawing the length of the table jacked up. The hardest part is making the ball ;) Getting the draw is just a side effect. For me, this is too low of a percentage to shoot for the cheese. But just playing around, it's pretty cool to do.

As for execution: you don't need a huge amount of angle to draw the length of the table. Only about 30-40 degrees. Any more than this and you'll be standing on your toes (if you are short like me). Aim to strike the cue ball below the plane through the center of the cue ball looking at it at the jacked up angle. Oh, I like to use a closed bridge (oddly enough). Choke up on the cue about one hand or just a bit more to keep the side swing out of it. Shoot firm, but NOT hard. It's the same speed that you would need for a normal table length draw shot - and no harder.

Hope this helps!

-td

I made a video of this shot. Youtube video is processing it now. It should be done shortly and I'll post the link.

jay helfert
10-16-2007, 09:53 PM
With all due respect, long jacked-up shots have no practical value. Every single time I've ever encountered such a shot, I practically write off the outcome. Prior to shooting, I say, "WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!" (anything you say when you are on an amusement park ride will do)


Being successful requires strong mechanics but even the very best players in the world are going to miss this shot more often than not.

You nailed it Jude. When I see a player jacking his cue up and trying to draw the ball down table, I think good luck to him. It's a low percentage shot for all but Mike Massey and maybe Larry Nevel. Even great players like Rodney and Johnny avoid these shots. They know better.

I rack balls
10-17-2007, 01:32 AM
Bank them.

Eric.

td873
10-17-2007, 08:36 AM
It's a low percentage shot for all but Mike Massey and maybe Larry Nevel. Even great players like Rodney and Johnny avoid these shots. They know better.
I remeber seeing a Accustats video of CJ Wiley shooting a table length jacked up draw shot in a tourney. He fired it in like it was a hanger and got out. He may have been in the "my best chance to win mode" although with young eyes and over-confidence it might have been a case of "whatever, I can't miss anything." ;)

-td

veilside81
10-17-2007, 10:11 AM
To everyone thanks for all the suggestions..

To TD873: Really thanks for the video and all the effort put in helping me out... The only thing that I need to point out is that the shot I diagrammed in my opinion is a bit more difficult than the one in your video beacuase of the more distance between the object ball and the pocket..
By the way thanks again for everything..;)

td873
10-17-2007, 12:10 PM
To everyone thanks for all the suggestions..

To TD873: Really thanks for the video and all the effort put in helping me out... The only thing that I need to point out is that the shot I diagrammed in my opinion is a bit more difficult than the one in your video beacuase of the more distance between the object ball and the pocket..
By the way thanks again for everything..;)
Actually, each shot has it's own difficulties, and different players will find each more challenging than the other. Some players hate long distance between the OB and cue ball, others dislike more distance between the OB and pocket.

For me (on this shot) I find that the closer the object ball is to the cue ball the easier the shot becomes, since you get to hit the cue ball softer and still get draw. [Draw being the key element here, since it is a jacked up shot.] If the shot was a slow roller with the OB just one diamond away, I think your point would be more valid, since pocket speed will "suck the ball up." But at table length draw speed, if you don't hit the pocket just right (either from 1 diamond or 3 diamonds away) you won't make the ball. And the harder you shoot, the more accurate you have to be.

I would guess the the percentage would be about the same (or maybe a little higher) for the shot you diagrammed. Would be interesting to experiment though ;)

-td

ez2h8
10-17-2007, 02:17 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but last night I pulled out my copy of Byrne's book of 350 shots. Did some skills refreshment and found him discuss basically the same shot. I scanned the cover and the actual page to .bmp format but they are too large to attach as files here so I put links to my frappr page. Hope they help some. :)

http://image2.frappr.com/pix2/i/20071017/7/2/0/720947d08faefd1877acaff13443cdaa0_large.jpg
http://image1.frappr.com/pix1/i/20071017/c/7/4/c74cd4dbdab95e993e5c2780b39e613c0_large.jpg
ez

TATE
10-17-2007, 03:23 PM
Never mind - (tried to layout a safe that didn't work well in the real world)

klockdoc
10-17-2007, 03:37 PM
veilside81,

Here is an excerpt from the Inside Pool magazine where Johnny Archer talks about tough shots; Titled Sometimes the Best Defense is a Good Offense. April 2005 Volume V, Issue 4

1/2 way in: So, have you ever been in a situation on the table and just didn't know what to do? That happens to me all the time. It is times like these when there isn't a right shot to shoot. When faced with one of these situations, I carefully weigh all my options. Is there a safety and what are the percentages of me getting another shot? What are my percentages of making the ball and getting position on the next shot? What shot gives me the best chance of winning the game?

Well, I was in one of those uncomfortable situations in my match against Danny Basavich at the Derby City Classic. He was up 5-4 in a short race to 7. Down on the 8 ball, he missed and left me a very tough shot, diagrammed below.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3HOCM2IaCP1PNlT@

When I came to the table, I thought, Wow, what a hard shot. But, I didn't panic. Since the shot was so difficult, my initial instinct was to play safe. The thing was, if I did play a good safety, I figured he was still going to have a bank or play a better safety back on me. So naturally my next thought was to try to make the ball somewhere and win the game.

After weighing all my options, I decided that playing safe was just as hard as trying to cut the 8 ball into the corner pocket. And since I couldn't win the game with a safety, I figured that I should give it a shot, because I knew that if I made it, I would win because the 9 ball was fairly close to the pocket. I sliced the 8 ball into the corner pocket, sending the cue ball up and down the table and landing perfectly on the 9.

I went on to win that match 7-6, giving further support to my theory that when a safe is as hard as the shot itself, you should go for it. That is the best way to win.

Of course, he's Johnny. Take it for what it is worth.

dabarbr
10-17-2007, 04:09 PM
Years back I was in a game with Louie Roberts in a race to 9 and the score was him 8 and me 7. I was on a run to tie the set at 8 apiece when I got out of line. Back then we pushed out.

We were on a tight pocket table that I knew real well and I thought I would trap him on this shot. I left him this shot that we are talking about and I was hopeing that he would shoot it. Damn if he didn't jack up and fire it with a ton of draw and won the set. With perfect conditions and the cue ball up close this shot was almost impossible on that table. Needless to say this was my last set with him. I guess to some this is just another shot.

Neil
10-17-2007, 04:33 PM
...............