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mikepage
10-15-2007, 09:20 AM
Here's my latest:

clarifies the difference between a double-hit foul and a push-shot foul.

How to aim frozen balls --Jewett interference system

mikepage
10-15-2007, 04:08 PM
Has anybody ever seen a push-shot foul called on somebody? If so, what was the shot?

Here's my latest:

clarifies the difference between a double-hit foul and a push-shot foul.

How to aim frozen balls --Jewett interference system

Bob Jewett
10-15-2007, 05:09 PM
Has anybody ever seen a push-shot foul called on somebody? If so, what was the shot?
I don't think I've ever seen the sort of push shot where you come up very slowly to the cue ball and then accelerate. Or at least, not in a game. There was a semi-road player around here who could do push shots pretty well, but I only saw him do them as demos of the technique.

Neil
10-15-2007, 05:41 PM
..............

mnorwood
10-15-2007, 05:57 PM
In books and alot of rule systems I have always heard that if the cueball is frozen the shot is a foul no matter how it is stroked. I have also heard rule systems that say the shot is illegal when the object ball cue ball and cue are touching simultaniously. Still other rule systems alow for a frozen ball shot when the cue is elevated.

Phil Capelle in his glossary of terms defines a push shot as being either frozen or within a chalk length.

What is the correct definition. I thought I knew and now I am not sure.

klockdoc
10-15-2007, 06:06 PM
Mike, in the video, you showed Bobs version of the interference system when you are going to make another ball.

The way I have always done this is to take a line from/through the object ball to the ball that is to be made. Where that lines exits the object ball is the aiming point.

Little less confusing and easier to find the aim point.

Bob Jewett
10-15-2007, 06:08 PM
... What is the correct definition. I thought I knew and now I am not sure.

5. ** What is a push shot?

Careful! There is some variation in usage of this term, so you
need to make it clear which way you are using the word.

First, a "push out" is something very different from a "push shot". At
nine ball, the first shot after the break can be played as a push out
if declared in advance, and the requirements of ball and rail contact
are waived. The incoming player can pass the shot back to the pusher.

At pool, a push shot involves a very special kind of stroke and is
played when the cue ball is frozen to the object ball -- this stroke is
a foul. (At pool it is legal to shoot towards a ball the cue ball is
frozen to, assuming no other foul, and with a normal stroke.) In a
push shot, the tip is brought slowly, slowly, very slowly up to the cue
ball until it is just touching or about to touch, and then the tip is
accelerated for the shot. Two examples:

1. A ball is frozen to the rail close to a corner pocket. The cue ball
is frozen to the object ball and straight out from the rail. The shot
is straight towards the object ball, with the tip placed on the equator
of the cue ball with lots of side away from the pocket. Once very
forward and the object ball sort of slips out from behind the cue ball
and goes straight into the near pocket.

2. The cue ball is on the foot spot, and an object ball is frozen as if
it had been spotted; both are on the long string. A desirable object
ball is in the jaws of one of the foot pockets. A legal way to pocket
the hung ball is to point the cue stick at a point on the foot rail
half way between the center of the rail and the target pocket, and
shoot a normal center ball stroke. An illegal push shot is to elevate
the butt of the stick to about 45 degrees, address the cue ball for
extreme follow, and shoot a gradual push shot. In this case the cue
ball will nearly ignore the object ball, and go close to the line of
aim, rather than the double "angle" of the first (legal) method.

At pool, when the cue ball is close to but not frozen to the object
ball, and the cue ball is shot straight at the object ball with a
normal stroke, usually a "double hit" occurs. This is a foul.

At snooker, you are not permitted to play the cue ball towards a ball
it is frozen to, nor to play double hits.

At carom billiards, "push shot" includes any shot where the cue ball
is close to or touching the object ball and the shot is a foul.

6. ** What is the "Diamond System"?

mikepage
10-15-2007, 06:33 PM
Mike, in the video, you showed Bobs version of the interference system when you are going to make another ball.

The way I have always done this is to take a line from/through the object ball to the ball that is to be made. Where that lines exits the object ball is the aiming point.

Little less confusing and easier to find the aim point.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying. But the correct aim for these shots frequently is toward no part of the object ball.

Neil
10-15-2007, 06:42 PM
...................

mikepage
10-15-2007, 06:56 PM
I just tried his method on my table. It works great! And is easier to aim. Just draw a line from the object ball to the frozen ball. Where that line touches the frozen ball, aim the center of the cueball there. I was amazed at some of the far apart caroms that I just made. And I am not talking about ones sitting on the lip of the pocket.

That's really weird, because I just went down to my table to do the same thing, and it's not even close.

If you put an object ball anywhere along the center line of the table, and freeze the cueball to aim straight down the center line (to the middle of the foot rail), then the correct aim--from anywhere--to scratch in the corner pocket is straight toward the first diamond on the foot rail.

This method--again unless I don't understand it--doesn't give that.

Also, I froze two balls to each other and to the long rail at many positions along the long rail and used this method to try to scratch in an opposite corner pocket. It's way way off for most positions.

klockdoc
10-15-2007, 07:06 PM
Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying. But the correct aim for these shots frequently is toward no part of the object ball.

Mike what I am saying is that you draw a line through the object ball like in the diagram.

Where that line exits the object ball, (closest to the ball to be caromed), that is your aiming point.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4ATkS4IaMS4PUaC1cJVr4caUS4dYvR4dYWP4daMU4daUQ@

klockdoc
10-15-2007, 07:10 PM
Maybe this explains it better. I drew some extra lines to show your system and how mine works with it.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4ATkS4HQmQ4IaMR4PUaC4QKAc4RXYG4cQmQ4cUJR4cUJR4da MR1dKTL4lKAc4lUBR4mXYG4mKIc@

mikepage
10-15-2007, 07:29 PM
OK, that's what I thought. So in your diagram here if you want to hit the cueball into the far side pocket, it looks like you're saying to aim toward the foot rail near the corner pocket. Right? Do you really think that would work?

Mike what I am saying is that you draw a line through the object ball like in the diagram.

Where that line exits the object ball, (closest to the ball to be caromed), that is your aiming point.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4ATkS4IaMS4PUaC1cJVr4caUS4dYvR4dYWP4daMU4daUQ@

Bob Jewett
10-15-2007, 08:02 PM
I just tried his method on my table. It works great! And is easier to aim. Just draw a line from the object ball to the frozen ball. Where that line touches the frozen ball, aim the center of the cueball there. I was amazed at some of the far apart caroms that I just made. And I am not talking about ones sitting on the lip of the pocket.
As Mike pointed out, that method doesn't come close for thin hits on the frozen ball. Imagine a target nearly along the kiss line, and shoot the cue ball to the spot on the frozen object ball that is closest to the target. The resulting angle of the cue ball will be 45 degrees to the angle of the stick and not the nearly 90 degrees that you want.

For relatively full hits, it is possible to figure out how accurate the shot should be based on the known accuracy of the two-times-fuller system. The "closest point" system is wrong by roughly 1/3 and will send the cue ball too straight ahead.

I suspect that your success came from not accurately picking out the actual imaginary point on the far side of the object ball.

Neil
10-15-2007, 09:03 PM
..................

klockdoc
10-15-2007, 09:58 PM
Mike and Bob,

I also use this system to play safe on balls when I do not have a decent shot afterwards.

See in this diagram, I do not have a good shot following even if I make the 1 in the side. I decided to play safe.

I draw a line exiting the object ball and using running english, it t will snuggle up against the 8 ball.

It is really a pretty universal application. It can be used in other situations if you are a little creative.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AGAu2BGbU3CRIW1DEui1ESJA1FCYm3GQWM3HBAv3ISXu3OL iK3PLxI3UGAu4Uavu3jLiK3jByJ3jByJzc3kLxI3kFbk3kBqJ3 kBqJzc@

Patrick Johnson
10-16-2007, 06:23 AM
It is really a pretty universal application.

This is an entirely different kind of shot than the CB-frozen-to-OB shots Mike is talking about. Aiming at the "centerline exit point" on the first object ball is a well known method for these kind of shots (although not particularly reliable over a wide range of shots and conditions), but it won't work with CB-frozen-to-OB shots unless the alignment just happens to be the same as Jewett's - that's not the other system working; that's Jewett's system working and the other system just happening to line up with it occasionally, like a broken clock being right twice a day.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
10-16-2007, 06:38 AM
Here's my latest:

clarifies the difference between a double-hit foul and a push-shot foul.

How to aim frozen balls --Jewett interference system

Real nice, Mike.

I like showing only the hands and the equipment rather than a full body shot - not that you aren't a pleasure to look at, but it's easier to focus on what you're demonstrating. However, I think I'd like to see more live action demos interspersed with the graphics, just to liven things up a little.

Again, great stuff.

pj
chgo

klockdoc
10-16-2007, 06:52 AM
It is really a pretty universal application.

This is an entirely different kind of shot than the CB-frozen-to-OB shots Mike is talking about. Aiming at the "centerline exit point" on the first object ball is a well known method for these kind of shots (although not particularly reliable over a wide range of shots and conditions), but it won't work with CB-frozen-to-OB shots unless the alignment just happens to be the same as Jewett's - that's not the other system working; that's Jewett's system working and the other system just happening to line up with it occasionally, like a broken clock being right twice a day.

pj
chgo

I mentioned that it is a universal application because it can be used in a variety of ways. Not specifically for frozen balls only. One just needs to experiment (as in any system), in different methods to understand and find its limitations.

I guess it does have its restrictions, in frozen ball situations, (similar to the interference system and its afore mentioned restrictions based on cue ball placement).

Granted, it is an older system, but some on this forum are new and not familiar with this and its application. Being that it lined up, (and I believe it is more than a "once a day" occurrence in a frozen ball situation), it presented an opportunity to present it to the board. There are more times that this system can be used for other applications than specifically a frozen situation.

Bob's system is a definite plus to learn and a valuable tool. Doesn't hurt to have something extra there to cross reference your thought process.

I didn't state it to deter anyone from using Bobs system or to downgrade it by saying there was something better out there. Only added it to say there was another way to look at it.

mikepage
10-16-2007, 07:04 AM
Real nice, Mike.

I like showing only the hands and the equipment rather than a full body shot - not that you aren't a pleasure to look at, but it's easier to focus on what you're demonstrating.

Yeah, and I didn't like having to wear clothes in the other video anyway. This was more comfortable.

However, I think I'd like to see more live action demos interspersed with the graphics, just to liven things up a little.

Again, great stuff.

pj
chgo

Thanks Pat.

I was thinking the same thing--after I was done and looked at it--that it would have been better to intersperse more live stuff.

I try not to dilly or dally on the more ...ahem... academic segments, but I also want to be clear. Sometimes that ends up..., well ..., you know ....

Patrick Johnson
10-16-2007, 09:44 AM
Me:
I like showing only the hands and the equipment rather than a full body shot - not that you aren't a pleasure to look at, but it's easier to focus on what you're demonstrating.

Mike:
Yeah, and I didn't like having to wear clothes in the other video anyway. This was more comfortable.

LOL. The other folks at the pool hall didn't pressure you one way or the other?

pj
chgo

mikepage
10-16-2007, 10:36 AM
LOL. The other folks at the pool hall didn't pressure you one way or the other?

pj
chgo

The amazing thing about North Dakota is that even though four days has passed, I can still see them running away.

Patrick Johnson
10-16-2007, 06:36 PM
I guess it does have its restrictions, in frozen ball situations, (similar to the interference system and its afore mentioned restrictions based on cue ball placement).

It doesn't "have restrictions" in frozen ball situations; it simply doesn't work. The times when it seems to work are those (few) when it accidentally coincides with the interference system alignment.

I don't see any mention of "restrictions based on cue ball placement" with the interference system.

Granted, it is an older system, but some on this forum are new and not familiar with this and its application.

I'm glad you mentioned it - it's a valuable principle in lots of situations that many will benefit from learning. But it's not useful in frozen ball situations and knowing that limitation is essential in making it really useful.

I believe it is more than a "once a day" occurrence in a frozen ball situation

Sorry, but you're wrong. It only works with frozen balls when they accidentally line up the same way as the interference system does, so if you try to use that system with frozen balls you'll be wrong 9 times out of 10 - probably lots more.

Bob's system is a definite plus to learn and a valuable tool. Doesn't hurt to have something extra there to cross reference your thought process.

I didn't state it to deter anyone from using Bobs system or to downgrade it by saying there was something better out there. Only added it to say there was another way to look at it.

I understand, and I do hate to be the one to say it, but this system isn't "another way" to look at aiming with frozen balls. That idea will mislead beginners who don't know any better. I'm not trying to criticize you, just trying to stop mistaken info from spreading.

pj
chgo

klockdoc
10-16-2007, 08:44 PM
I don't see any mention of "restrictions based on cue ball placement" with the interference system.

The restrictions I was talking about is explained in the video by Mike. Go to 6:22 into the video.

Deleted balance of post. Patrick was correct in his statements. System I explained only works when it happens to line up the same as the interference system.

Everyone, please read up on Bob's Interference System and apply it in all frozen ball situations.

Nice work Mike. Didn't mean to seem to HighJack your post.

Patrick Johnson
10-17-2007, 06:29 AM
The restrictions I was talking about is explained in the video by Mike. Might be best if you went back and watched it. Go to 6:22 into the video.

I just watched again and don't see any restrictions mentioned or demonstrated. Maybe you should watch it again. Or not.

I keep thinking, but cannot possibly think of any situation where this does not line up correctly or at least the same as the Jewett system

Without much thinking at all I can come up with position after position where they don't match. In fact, the only positions that come close enough are very long shots with very small angles like #6 in the diagram below - all others are far enough off to miss the shots. You're confusing your own imprecision with "slack" in the system.

NOTE: Black lines are "Interference System" aims. Red lines are your aims. Green lines are OB-OB centerlines (to show how your aims are measured).

What 10 out of 10? Maybe 11 or 12 out of 10? More? LOL Sorry, had to say that. Trying to bring a little humor into the answer here.

I can't really tell if you get that or not, so: 95 or 99 out of 100.

I'm not trying to criticize you.

Yeah you are

Now I am - for being stubbornly, defensively wrong when knowing the facts (and helping people rather than misinforming them) takes so little honest effort.

pj
chgo

klockdoc
10-17-2007, 12:34 PM
I just watched again and don't see any restrictions mentioned or demonstrated.

Try going back again and turn up the volume this time. 6:22 FYI

Now I am - for being stubbornly, defensively wrong when knowing the facts (and helping people rather than misinforming them) takes so little honest effort.

pj
chgo

Guess I do not know what to do now. I already apologized above way before you posted this. Look at the edit times. Don't know what else I can say. Least I don't say we're both right.:) I admit when I am wrong.

Patrick Johnson
10-17-2007, 02:10 PM
Me:
I just watched again and don't see any restrictions mentioned or demonstrated.

klockdoc:
Try going back again and turn up the volume this time. 6:22 FYI

Quit playing games and quote the part you think says there are restrictions. It isn't there.

I already apologized above way before you posted this.

I missed that part. Sorry.

Least I don't say we're both right.

Since we weren't both right, that's only appropriate.

Least I don't keep bringing up imagined "victories" from earlier threads.

pj
chgo

ndakotan
10-21-2007, 08:23 PM
Mike,

In North Dakota NDTA leagues, the league rules specifically state that push shots are legal. Does this mean that the long-duration tip-ball contact shot you made in the video is legal? If it is, nobody is using it, but I'm going to. If my ball is on the rail near the pocket with a ball next to it (away from the pocket), would it be legal to put the CB in front of the OB, (away from the rail), and push shot spin the ball in the pocket?

PIRANHA
10-22-2007, 09:17 AM
Here's my latest:

clarifies the difference between a double-hit foul and a push-shot foul.

How to aim frozen balls --Jewett interference system

Mikepage,
I don't know if I can get this across but check this out.
Put a ball in the corner jaws ,freeze a ball on the cue ball near the side pocket same side as the leaner. If the frozen ball is lined up with the other side rail, look to see what diamond it is pointed to,now just shoot at the same diamond on the short rail. No guess work of division. LES

mikepage
10-22-2007, 09:57 AM
Mike,

In North Dakota NDTA leagues, the league rules specifically state that push shots are legal.

NDTA (North Dakota Tournament Association) is a collection of VENDORS (companies who rent coin operated equipment to bars). They run so-called "State" tournaments that I'm not allowed to play in because I don't play league through one of the right vending companies.

My league team is also not allowed to play in the NDTA "State" Tournament.

It's fine for those vendors to get together and have an annual tournament, but I don't like it when people call it the ND State Championships or anything like that.

Does this mean that the long-duration tip-ball contact shot you made in the video is legal? If it is, nobody is using it, but I'm going to.

I think that's a bad idea. I suspect they've never heard of a "push shot" the way I describe it. I suspect they're saying double hits on close balls are legal, or some other stupid rules.

If my ball is on the rail near the pocket with a ball next to it (away from the pocket), would it be legal to put the CB in front of the OB, (away from the rail), and push shot spin the ball in the pocket?

I have no prediction. You may be dealing with people who see ball-in-hand-for-a-foul as a communist plot.

PIRANHA
10-22-2007, 10:24 AM
Push shots are legal in A.P.A. and no one calls a close double hit unless they are higher skilled level.

mikepage
10-22-2007, 10:29 AM
Mike,

In North Dakota NDTA leagues, the league rules specifically state that push shots are legal. Does this mean that the long-duration tip-ball contact shot you made in the video is legal? [...]

OK I looked it up. That might be the old rule, but apparently the rule has changed.

http://www.ndtaonline.com/pool/rules/spl_rules.htm#pushshot

So push shots are now illegal. But apparently stroking into a frozen pair is illegal as well ??? So if you are shooting at a frozen pair you have to jack up by 45 degrees or whatever (a rule that has no relation to the physics of the situation).

While jacking up to shoot the frozen pair though, be careful you don't raise the cue above your armpit and look like you're shooting a masse because hat is illegal.

Good luck and be careful out there.

Patrick Johnson
10-22-2007, 12:10 PM
Put a ball in the corner jaws ,freeze a ball on the cue ball near the side pocket same side as the leaner. If the frozen ball is lined up with the other side rail, look to see what diamond it is pointed to,now just shoot at the same diamond on the short rail. No guess work of division.

What if the frozen CB/OB are somewhere else?

pj
chgo

PIRANHA
10-22-2007, 12:34 PM
Then the other system, half way point is applied, but if you can point at the side rail ,aim at that spot on the short rail. That will give you the same point of aim without dividing in half.Try it...LES

Bob Jewett
10-22-2007, 12:35 PM
... Put a ball in the corner jaws ,freeze a ball on the cue ball near the side pocket same side as the leaner. If the frozen ball is lined up with the other side rail, look to see what diamond it is pointed to,now just shoot at the same diamond on the short rail. No guess work of division. LES
If I understand correctly.... Suppose the cue ball and object ball that it is frozen to point at the corner pocket on the same end rail as the leaner. I think that your system says to shoot straight at the frozen ball, and the cue ball will go straight ahead. (In fact, for that position, you should be shooting at roughly -- but not exactly -- the center of the end rail.)

PIRANHA
10-22-2007, 01:03 PM
Wish I could use the Table to explain. If the cb is frozen on the ball by the side pocket, same side as leaner. Point straight through the two balls at the other side rail.If you see the second diamond up from the corner. shoot at the second diamond on the short rail..LES

Patrick Johnson
10-22-2007, 01:37 PM
If the cb is frozen on the ball by the side pocket, same side as leaner. Point straight through the two balls at the other side rail.If you see the second diamond up from the corner. shoot at the second diamond on the short rail..LES

This might almost work when the frozen CB/OB is pointed at the first diamond from the opposite side pocket, but if the frozen CB/OB is pointed at any other diamond this doesn't work. Your method just happens to (almost) coincide with the correct Jewett System aim in one coincidental case.

pj
chgo

ndakotan
10-22-2007, 05:12 PM
NDTA (North Dakota Tournament Association) is a collection of VENDORS (companies who rent coin operated equipment to bars). They run so-called "State" tournaments that I'm not allowed to play in because I don't play league through one of the right vending companies.

My league team is also not allowed to play in the NDTA "State" Tournament.

It's fine for those vendors to get together and have an annual tournament, but I don't like it when people call it the ND State Championships or anything like that.

I think that's a bad idea. I suspect they've never heard of a "push shot" the way I describe it. I suspect they're saying double hits on close balls are legal, or some other stupid rules.

I have no prediction. You may be dealing with people who see ball-in-hand-for-a-foul as a communist plot.

I don't think I'd actually try it in league, but the rules are written so poorly and so misunderstood that I am willing to cause some uproar to get someone to do something about it. To run a league with the size of tournaments we have with one sheet of poorly worded rules is astounding to me. While the rules do specifically allow "push shots" I agree that they probably don't know what a true "push shot" is. It would be fun to have someone go get a judge after explaining what I "intend" to do.

PIRANHA
10-23-2007, 07:51 AM
Just got back on the site and on my table. I lined up the shot on every diamond across the table.I shot at the same diamond on the short rail , no problem? My stroke may be different, it is not a push shot. I'm shooting away from the ball .A firm stroke at 7:00. LES

Patrick Johnson
10-23-2007, 09:18 AM
Just got back on the site and on my table. I lined up the shot on every diamond across the table.I shot at the same diamond on the short rail , no problem? My stroke may be different, it is not a push shot. I'm shooting away from the ball .A firm stroke at 7:00. LES
Which diamonds on the long rail are the CB/OB pair pointed at and which corresponding diamonds on the short rail are you aiming at? "The same diamond" doesn't communicate.

Here's a Wei table with the relevant diamonds numbered and the CB/OB pair pointed at diamond #1 on the long rail. Which diamond on the short rail do you aim the CB at to sink the 9 in the near corner?

Which diamonds on the short rail do you aim the CB at when the CB/OB pair is pointed at diamond #2 or #3?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AfNk2BfXU2CfRF2DODL1EAHL1FODK1HXCE1IaUe1PafA1ka fA2kbNh@

By the way, hitting low (at 7:00 o'clock) isn't the way to hit these shots for Jewett's system. I think centerball or slightly above is best.

pj
chgo

PIRANHA
10-23-2007, 12:13 PM
Which diamonds on the long rail are the CB/OB pair pointed at and which corresponding diamonds on the short rail are you aiming at? "The same diamond" doesn't communicate.

Here's a Wei table with the relevant diamonds numbered and the CB/OB pair pointed at diamond #1 on the long rail. Which diamond on the short rail do you aim the CB at to sink the 9 in the near corner?

Which diamonds on the short rail do you aim the CB at when the CB/OB pair is pointed at diamond #2 or #3?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AfNk2BfXU2CfRF2DODL1EAHL1FODK1HXCE1IaUe1PafA1ka fA2kbNh@

By the way, hitting low (at 7:00 o'clock) isn't the way to hit these shots for Jewett's system. I think centerball or slightly above is best.

pj
chgo
I DON'T KNOW HOW TO USE THE TABLE YET.LOOKING AT YOUR PIC. I CALL THAT 3 DIAMONDS UP FROM THE END RAIL. I'LL AIM AT 3 DIAMONDS FROM THAT CORNER ON THE SHORT RAIL OR 1 DIAMOND AWAY FROM THE BALL.I KNOW BOB'S SYSTEM IS A DEAD BALL. WITH MY STROKE AND SYSTEM I USE A FIRM 5:00.this side ,7:00 other side

PIRANHA
10-23-2007, 12:28 PM
On your table if the balls are pointing at 1-6,2-5,3-4...firm 5:00..