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clint3612
10-16-2007, 07:25 AM
I have been noticing something about my game. The longer the backswing the more i miss. I have been watching alot of mike sigel tapes and i noticed that he doesn't go that far back. Same thing with allen hopkins. Now, allen is on the extreme end of that. However, i think i remember something to the effect that when the straightness of cue shaft deliveryto the cue ball is taken into account; allen hopkins had the straightest stroke of all of the pros. Can anyone confirm this? I think you have to have alot of natural ability to take long back swings and always come through the cue ball perfectly every time. There only so many people who can do this consistently? James walden also has short back swings. So anyway i have been experimenting with it. It seems that i'm shooting straighter, however, when you experiment with things you always think you found the missing "ingredient" to pool. Anybody have any insight to any of this?

noRulez
10-16-2007, 07:45 AM
I've felt the same thing. On long shots I tend to take a shorter back swing(shorten my stroke length) for more accuracy. In my mind, the shorter my stroke, the less margin for error (deviation from a straight stroke in this case). I don't necessarily like this idea but it does tend to help.

mosconiac
10-16-2007, 08:02 AM
Whenever I think of long backswings, one person comes to mind…Xiaoting Pan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCq5ZSpTq1Q

I think you are on to something though. As I pondered your question, I realized something about the "pause" that is so popular with professional instructors right now...and it certainly works for me. My backswing favors the long end of the spectrum and without the “pause” I start feeling rushed & tend to miss a lot more shots.

What I realized is that at the end of the backswing your arm is more extended and your hand is in a weakened position. If you rush directly into a forward swing, there is ample opportunity (consciously or unconsciously) for the hand to gain unwanted side movement. The “pause” allows you to settle your hand before engaging in the forward delivery. What does everyone else think?

A shortened backswing would keep your arm less extended and your hand in a stronger position.

I also remembered one particular shot from this past weekend. I was shooting a long shot with the CB frozen on the end rail. I uncharacteristically took a very short backswing and nailed the shot with uncommon confidence. I put that in my memory banks & will use that technique in like situations in the future.

Reaper114
10-16-2007, 08:32 AM
The backswing varies person to person. Its kinda a difficult one to coach. Best advice from me is keep your head as still as possible, when extending your back swing, keep your elbow pivoted in the same position and slightly loosen your grip on the cue when drawing the cue backwards.

When cueing off rails/cushions what might help is adjusting your hand positon on the cue placing it further up the cue rather than shorting your backswing. that way you dont change the mechanics of your backswing and can still generate sum force if needed!

ceebee
10-16-2007, 09:17 AM
I also underwent a change in my backswing, some time back. I have shortened my backswing & when practicing, I also concentrate on taking the cue straight back on the shot line & slower than I used to.

When practicing, I try to imagine that I am cocking my arm to stroke the cue ball a certain distance.

As mentioned before, I try to assimilate the speed needed in my warmup strokes. The one other thing, which has helped considerably, is a second setting to check my aim & a short but definite pause.

I do believe the Backswing is crucial component for success

3andstop
10-16-2007, 09:18 AM
This is something I've learned a while back. I spoke of it here ...

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=835585&postcount=5


IMO, I don't think you can put into words how critical it is to deliver the stroke the same way you aimed it on your last practice stroke when you felt you were on.

Stopping at the cue ball is absolutely important, but the thing is, not to be complacent when you stop and take a look, it is to very definitely re-evaluate the path of the OB if you had followed through on that stroke. Seeing the OB go into the pocket and then exactly delivering that same stroke with follow though. If it looks a tad off, re-adjust and re-stop for a check.

At least for me, the honing in made a big difference. The shorter backstroke helps prevent variations in the last aim vs actual delivery.

Also, if I need a powerful stroke, I make sure my practice strokes are longer and more powerful to once again emulate the actual hit when I stop at the cue ball to evalute. Don't take your regular practice stroke, take one and stop at the cue that will emulate how you plan to deliver it.

The slightest variation from what you saw as the correct hit on your last practice stroke when you stop at the cue ball and what you actually deliver is the major cause of missing. (aside of course from the gremlins in our brains) :)

Doug
10-16-2007, 09:36 AM
One day I was watching Cliff Joyner playing the ghost and he missed a shot in two consecutive games and after missing the second time he came over to me and asked if I knew why he missed those shots. Of course I had no idea and he told me it was because he took a longer back stroke. He said he has to constantly remind himself against taking a longer back stroke than normal because some shots make you want to do that something extra and the cue stick isn't delivered as straight as when a shorter stroke is used. It was a tip that has often helped me pocket balls.

Scott Lee
10-16-2007, 10:26 AM
He said he has to constantly remind himself against taking a longer back stroke than normal because some shots make you want to do that something extra and the cue stick isn't delivered as straight as when a shorter stroke is used.

I disagree that a longer backswing isn't as accurate as a short one. If your delivery process is accurate and repeatable, the cue will move in a straight line, regardless of how long your backswing is. IMO, the key phrase here is, "longer backstroke than NORMAL". The only purpose of the backswing is to create enough distance between the cuetip and CB, to provide the necessary acceleration through the CB. A "normal" backswing should deliver the tip (on the backswing), at the minimum, to the fingernail of your outstretched finger on your bridge hand. Many players prefer to bring the tip back to the knuckle. Buddy Hall almost pulls the tip out of his bridge hand. This is true for 95% of all SOP shots. Folks who shortstroke the cue will likely have difficulty varying the strokespeed of the cue, because the brain goes into 'override' mode when you shortstroke, but still want to put some speed on the CB. Then grip takes over, the shot gets muscled, and there is a complete breakdown of the normal stroke process. Hopkins is certainly an exception to this rule, but he is a freak of nature, albeit a many time champion player.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

ez2h8
10-16-2007, 10:39 AM
I tend to agree with others that the longer your back swing is, the more variable you have for miscueing or not getting the desired outcome.

I try very hard not to adjust my hand position or back swing for different shots. Except perhaps jumps and masse's but even then, it's minimal. If I need a lil more english on the CB, I will tighten or loosen my grip on the cue and increase/decrease the snap in my wrist. This consistency in my stance/grip/stroke over many years has taught me how much action I can get off the CB and what my strong/weak shots are based on my stroke. My rate of success is much much lower when I try and make the cue/cue ball do more then I can with my natural stroke. Instead of altering my stroke for a shot, I will think of a different shot to play all together.

Now something interesting about stance and stroke I learned in Atlanta. I had a friend that was a couple inches taller then me, 5'11/6'0 and his stance was more wide open with a grip at the very back of the cue. Where my stance is closer, like a snooker stance and I grip at the front of the wrap. My friend would get tons of action with what seemed to be a long sweeping range of stroke both forward and back swing, but it's a stance/stroke I could not do. Mine is more of a point, snap and shot type of stroke and any additional back swing throws me off.

Rambling a lil, but I guess it comes down to stance/grip/stroke and maybe over all conditioning for your style of shotmaking/play. :)

ez

Doug
10-16-2007, 01:43 PM
Just so you Azr's know; I have worked with Scott a couple times now and I have found him to be a difficult and argumentative "student" lol. Actually, Scott picked up on the phrasing of the sentence "longer than normal" and I feel sure this causes the miss, however, IMO within reason an unusually long stroke increases the propensity for error due to additional cue movement. The young lady from China is an exception because she uses it on every stroke (repeatable) and she has exceptional talent. Scott, check with me before correcting me again or next time you buy the beer.

SPINDOKTOR
10-16-2007, 02:29 PM
Scott, quick question, Lets say Shaq walked in, wanted to play in a celeb fundraiser tourney, and wants badly not to let down his fans, he wants lessons, and equipment. Naturaly your rep is on the line, Do you hand him a standard length cue? If so explain.



SPINDOKTOR

pooltchr
10-16-2007, 04:37 PM
As mentioned before, I try to assimilate the speed needed in my warmup strokes.

Since warm up strokes are only about half the stroke you will be using when you actually pull the trigger, how do you accomplish this? On your warm up strokes, you have gone from zero to full acceleration and back to zero before you ever get the tip to the contact point on the cue ball. This would be completely different from the speed you will be developing when you finally use your full stroke.

I see warm up strokes as a method to verify alignment and to determine what spin, if any, you will be putting on the cue based on the contact point. If you want to warm up the speed of your stroke, you would have to do it away from the cue ball, so you could warm up with a full stroke.

Steve

3andstop
10-16-2007, 06:25 PM
Well I guess we can agree to disagree.

I think its not only easy to concentrate on and duplicate in your mind as well as in your practice stroke the speed, feel, contact point, angle of the cue stick relative to the table bed, and perception of the desired reaction and follow through of the actual hit, I think its imperative to do so each time.


I see warm up strokes as a method to verify alignment and to determine what spin, if any, you will be putting on the cue based on the contact point.


Exactly why the actual hit should as close as possible mirror the practice stroke. Any change in the stroke will have a negative effect on the accuracy of the contact point on the cue ball.

I play mostly straight pool, which is overall much softer hitting, much closer shots, and much less prone to inaccuracies that the long hard cut shots of 9 ball would be affected by with bad hits on the CB, but even then, taking a break shot as an example. I take more forceful practice strokes and stop dead at the cue ball, exactly evaluating what the result would have been on a full follow through. If its off slightly, I'll do it over, adjusting and again precisely evaluating the entire result of what would have been on an actual follow through. That includes both the OB an CB path, the carom off the rack and direction of secondary balls as well as the CB.

I can't imagine taking the effort to assure that, and then, on your actual stroke, you add or remove another 3 or so inches of backstroke and follow through longer, shorter,harder or softer than you originally felt and envisioned.

The result may be good, may be bad, but it surely would be different that what you just practiced.

Perhaps I'm not explaining well, but I can say without a doubt, that FOR ME, this approach brings me into dead stroke much faster in a game because it enhances my confidence level so much that I will carry out what I have just mentally rehearsed, because it was perfect in rehearsal, and now I'm going to do it exactly the same way but for real.

Scott Lee
10-16-2007, 08:05 PM
Just so you Azr's know; I have worked with Scott a couple times now and I have found him to be a difficult and argumentative "student" lol.

Scott, check with me before correcting me again or next time you buy the beer.

Doug...I'm certain it's that high altitude air up at Soddy Daisy! LMAO:D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott Lee
10-16-2007, 08:12 PM
Scott, quick question, Lets say Shaq walked in, wanted to play in a celeb fundraiser tourney, and wants badly not to let down his fans, he wants lessons, and equipment. Naturaly your rep is on the line, Do you hand him a standard length cue? If so explain.

SPINDOKTOR

In Shaq's case, since he is 7'+ tall, I think a 62" cue would work better. However, IMO he could still play with a normal cue...he'd just have to hold on to the very end of the buttcap with his thumb and forefinger. As long as he was still able to freeswing his forearm (a natural pendulum swing), and the forearm was mostly perpendicular at impact, the shorter cue shouldn't make a lot of difference. I've already worked with guys 6'5", who played with a regular length cue with no problem. They just have to hold the cue at the back end, behind the wrap.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott Lee
10-16-2007, 08:17 PM
Exactly why the actual hit should as close as possible mirror the practice stroke. Any change in the stroke will have a negative effect on the accuracy of the contact point on the cue ball.

Perhaps I'm not explaining well, but I can say without a doubt, that FOR ME, this approach brings me into dead stroke much faster in a game because it enhances my confidence level so much that I will carry out what I have just mentally rehearsed, because it was perfect in rehearsal, and now I'm going to do it exactly the same way but for real.

I have to agree with you here, with one exception...any change in the stroke, for some players, MAY have a negative effect on the accuracy (but may not, as well). IMO, if you make your warm up strokes exactly the same as your delivery stroke, the only difference is that you finish the swing after impact with the CB. Lot's of folks may vary, but I'm in your camp when it comes to making the warmups just like the final delivery. All you need is the pause at the CB, to set the mind in motion. Nice explanation!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

JimS
10-17-2007, 05:18 AM
Seems like the length of the bridge and the back swing will vary depending on the type of shot. Short finesse shots require a short bridge and swing while at other times I need to "let my stroke out"... as the saying goes. The change in stroke seems to happen rather naturally after standing over the shot and the brain calculates what is needed to get the job at hand completed.

A short bridge is usually recommended because the short bridge and stroke are usually more accurate... less room for error. But a short bridge used on a long shot, one requiring power, would tend to cause the shot to be hurried or jerked trying to generate that power.

Nine ball players generally use a longer bridge than one pocket players because a lot of the shot making is table length and the use of long draw or force follow going 3 rails is frequent. Games like one pocket or straight pool usually require much shorter finesse shots and consequently a short bridge and stroke are used more of the time.

The shot determines the length of the bridge and stroke. Same with golf.

buzzsaw
10-17-2007, 05:53 AM
Since warm up strokes are only about half the stroke you will be using when you actually pull the trigger, how do you accomplish this? On your warm up strokes, you have gone from zero to full acceleration and back to zero before you ever get the tip to the contact point on the cue ball. This would be completely different from the speed you will be developing when you finally use your full stroke.

I see warm up strokes as a method to verify alignment and to determine what spin, if any, you will be putting on the cue based on the contact point. If you want to warm up the speed of your stroke, you would have to do it away from the cue ball, so you could warm up with a full stroke.

Steve
Steve, I agree with you.

IMO it comes down to the follow through more than the back swing. I say that because if I take a longer back swing I don't seem to get the needed distance for a complete follow though. I have a tendancy to slap at the CB. Like in golf, I try to make sure my follow through distance is longer than the back swing. With a short back swing I generally get my complete stroke.

my .02

goettlicher
10-17-2007, 06:49 PM
Steve, I agree with you.

IMO it comes down to the follow through more than the back swing. I say that because if I take a longer back swing I don't seem to get the needed distance for a complete follow though. I have a tendancy to slap at the CB. Like in golf, I try to make sure my follow through distance is longer than the back swing. With a short back swing I generally get my complete stroke.

my .02


Jezzzz Buzzsaw. The longer length of follow through is an Urban Myth. The cueball is gone in about 1/1000 of a second. No amount of follow through will change the energy in the cueball.

All SOP shots should have the same length follow through. How you get to the cueball is more important.

Thanks.

SPF=randyg

mikepage
10-17-2007, 07:27 PM
Since warm up strokes are only about half the stroke you will be using when you actually pull the trigger, how do you accomplish this? On your warm up strokes, you have gone from zero to full acceleration and back to zero before you ever get the tip to the contact point on the cue ball. This would be completely different from the speed you will be developing when you finally use your full stroke.



I understand what you're saying Steve, and I agree with you. But maybe the OP doesn't mean he actually replicates his intended stroke speed with warm-up strokes, just that he prefaces a faster stroke with faster warm-up strokes. It could be that varying the speed of his warm-up strokes helps him get the feel for the intended speed of the shot.

I haven't actually verified this, but I think my break shot is quite a bit faster if I've done a series of very quick warm-up strokes. Then on the last stroke I draw back slowly after the set position. Maybe my fast-twitch muscle fibers need that heads-up that they're about to fire or something. I don't know. And I know the break stroke is different. I'm just saying someone deriving benefit from varying the speed of his warm-up strokes doesn't sound absurd to me.


I see warm up strokes as a method to verify alignment and to determine what spin, if any, you will be putting on the cue based on the contact point. If you want to warm up the speed of your stroke, you would have to do it away from the cue ball, so you could warm up with a full stroke.

Steve

Snoogi
10-17-2007, 07:39 PM
Jezzzz Buzzsaw. The longer length of follow through is an Urban Myth. The cueball is gone in about 1/1000 of a second. No amount of follow through will change the energy in the cueball.
Longer shorter follow throughs, subconciously our body mechanisms create the difference. We can't distinguish the difference in the seconds but somehow we can tell from the effects on the cueball.

All SOP shots should have the same length follow through. How you get to the cueball is more important.

Thanks.

SPF=randyg
Quite true but that's only half the stroke. How we finish the cueball is equally important. JMO.

kildegirl
10-17-2007, 08:09 PM
I also underwent a change in my backswing, some time back. I have shortened my backswing & when practicing, I also concentrate on taking the cue straight back on the shot line & slower than I used to.

When practicing, I try to imagine that I am cocking my arm to stroke the cue ball a certain distance.

As mentioned before, I try to assimilate the speed needed in my warmup strokes. The one other thing, which has helped considerably, is a second setting to check my aim & a short but definite pause. check aim how ???

I do believe the Backswing is crucial component for success

and you check your aim to pocket the object ball? what aiming system do you use ???

kildegirl
10-17-2007, 08:14 PM
and you check your aim to pocket the object ball? what aiming system do you use ??? not ghost ball i hope because the ghost ball is invisible

SPINDOKTOR
10-17-2007, 09:13 PM
In Shaq's case, since he is 7'+ tall, I think a 62" cue would work better. However, IMO he could still play with a normal cue...he'd just have to hold on to the very end of the buttcap with his thumb and forefinger. As long as he was still able to freeswing his forearm (a natural pendulum swing), and the forearm was mostly perpendicular at impact, the shorter cue shouldn't make a lot of difference. I've already worked with guys 6'5", who played with a regular length cue with no problem. They just have to hold the cue at the back end, behind the wrap.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com


Ok, I see, but I tend to leans towards a longer cue for the taller people, with a standard length cue you have to admitt there is a lil bit of a disadvantage there, even if that means they are holding the very end of the cue, that to me isnt ideal. Im sure the standard length makes it easy on cue makers, but in reality I think every player needs a cue fitted to thier body type and playing style. Hence, a custom cue.

I have toyed with the idea of a BIG AND TALL store for the bigger people in our pool community, where a standard length cue is 64" long with the option of up to a 70" length cue, with thicker butts, I think its time to give the big and tall people respect enough to produce a product that gives them an equal chance to become the best they can be. I mean Shaq could use a standard length cue as a tooth pick...lol


SPINDOKTOR

kildegirl
10-18-2007, 12:37 AM
I have been noticing something about my game. The longer the backswing the more i miss. I have been watching alot of mike sigel tapes and i noticed that he doesn't go that far back. Same thing with allen hopkins. Now, allen is on the extreme end of that. However, i think i remember something to the effect that when the straightness of cue shaft deliveryto the cue ball is taken into account; allen hopkins had the straightest stroke of all of the pros. Can anyone confirm this? I think you have to have alot of natural ability to take long back swings and always come through the cue ball perfectly every time. There only so many people who can do this consistently? James walden also has short back swings. So anyway i have been experimenting with it. It seems that i'm shooting straighter, however, when you experiment with things you always think you found the missing "ingredient" to pool. Anybody have any insight to any of this?WHAT ABOUT YOUR AIMING SYSTEM ??
Use the same aiming system that efren & bustamante use.

JoeyInCali
10-18-2007, 01:03 AM
WHAT ABOUT YOUR AIMING SYSTEM ??
Use the same aiming system that efren & bustamante use.
Ghost ball or contact points?
:D
Their aiming system is called " patama". :)

birdy
10-18-2007, 03:28 AM
WHAT ABOUT YOUR AIMING SYSTEM ??
Use the same aiming system that efren & bustamante use.


This thread is not about aiming systems so why don't you try the search option for that ? :mad:

3kushn
10-18-2007, 04:33 AM
I disagree that a longer backswing isn't as accurate as a short one. If your delivery process is accurate and repeatable, the cue will move in a straight line, regardless of how long your backswing is. IMO, the key phrase here is, "longer backstroke than NORMAL". The only purpose of the backswing is to create enough distance between the cuetip and CB, to provide the necessary acceleration through the CB. A "normal" backswing should deliver the tip (on the backswing), at the minimum, to the fingernail of your outstretched finger on your bridge hand. Many players prefer to bring the tip back to the knuckle. Buddy Hall almost pulls the tip out of his bridge hand. This is true for 95% of all SOP shots. Folks who shortstroke the cue will likely have difficulty varying the strokespeed of the cue, because the brain goes into 'override' mode when you shortstroke, but still want to put some speed on the CB. Then grip takes over, the shot gets muscled, and there is a complete breakdown of the normal stroke process. Hopkins is certainly an exception to this rule, but he is a freak of nature, albeit a many time champion player.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
REPEATABLE STROKE is the key. Right Scott?
There's numerous great players with very long strokes. Personally I don't know how they consistantly and accurately place the tip on the CB where they want it. But they do. The only answer is they're totally locked in (Repeatable).

A long back stroke requires more wood in front of the bridge hand. The slightest movement off line in the back or forward stroke is multiplied at the tip. Less wood = less effect from the forearm moving off line.

Could this be a check or drill for our stroke. Practice some shots with a really long stroke. If you're missing shots maybe there's a flaw somewhere?

Hail Mary Shot
10-18-2007, 05:32 AM
it is less accurate for those who have a shaky hand or wobbly arm. another thing is there is a chance that you might hit the CB on the wrong side or put some unnecessary english on it, thus a miss. there is no need for the long backswing unless you need the extra juice on the CB. the idea is to put enough distance between the cue and the CB itself for the juice, thus the longer backswing. as to consistency on the longer backswing, takes practice and familiarity. I, myself started out with the shorter backstroke since I got some accuracy pocketing issues when I was still starting to play. when my pocketing got good, I then started to put more action on the CB by adjusting my backswing further. it felt awkward at first , but I got into it after a few sessions. I dunno if it comes natural to a player to develop it or can it be taught? imo, the accuracy is definitely not, so stick to what suits you best and get a good cue which gives a lot of action.

JohnnyP
10-18-2007, 06:06 AM
I understand Larry Craig has a wide stance...

Sorry.

Scott Lee: Did you watch the tape of Ray Martin on the straight pool forum?

Can you comment on his stroke? Check in between time 19:00 through 20:00.

A spectator says "Mr. Martin, I notice your upper arm remains still."

Ray demonstrates that you don't want to drop the elbow, then proceeds to drop it (all the way) as he runs out.

His grip hand never arcs toward his chest. It only goes forward.

buzzsaw
10-18-2007, 07:06 AM
Jezzzz Buzzsaw. The longer length of follow through is an Urban Myth. The cueball is gone in about 1/1000 of a second. No amount of follow through will change the energy in the cueball.

All SOP shots should have the same length follow through. How you get to the cueball is more important.

Thanks.

SPF=randyg
It may be an urban legend but it helps me to keep from slapping at the CB. If I don't concentrate on a sufficient follow through I get this choppy stroke that seldom works correctly. I understand the dynamics of the CB hit. It's not like the cue stays on the CB but mentally it makes me continue on with the stroke. Just like in golf if I stop the club head at the ball I generally don't get the hit I was expecting.

3andstop
10-18-2007, 07:25 AM
It may be an urban legend but it helps me to keep from slapping at the CB. If I don't concentrate on a sufficient follow through I get this choppy stroke that seldom works correctly. I understand the dynamics of the CB hit. It's not like the cue stays on the CB but mentally it makes me continue on with the stroke. Just like in golf if I stop the club head at the ball I generally don't get the hit I was expecting.


Absolutely true. I don't care what any expert says about this topic. A smooth complete follow through is KEY to consistent success. It allows your delivery to be accurate because contacting the cue ball is neither the beginning or end of the event, it is merely a portion of it during the event.

buzzsaw
10-18-2007, 07:48 AM
Absolutely true. I don't care what any expert says about this topic. A smooth complete follow through is KEY to consistent success. It allows your delivery to be accurate because contacting the cue ball is neither the beginning or end of the event, it is merely a portion of it during the event.
I couldn't agree more with you.

pooltchr
10-18-2007, 10:13 AM
It may be an urban legend but it helps me to keep from slapping at the CB. If I don't concentrate on a sufficient follow through I get this choppy stroke that seldom works correctly. I understand the dynamics of the CB hit. It's not like the cue stays on the CB but mentally it makes me continue on with the stroke. Just like in golf if I stop the club head at the ball I generally don't get the hit I was expecting.

Follow through is simply the result of finishing your stroke. Finishing your stroke is critical, and will automatically give the desired follow through.
Steve

goettlicher
10-18-2007, 10:24 AM
Follow through is simply the result of finishing your stroke. Finishing your stroke is critical, and will automatically give the desired follow through.
Steve


So very true.

One of the first things a good player has to know is:

Where does my cue tip stop on my Standard every day stroke? Then his job is to put it there on every Standard stroke. If a player doesn't Finish his stroke on every shot, then every delivery is different. The amount of follow through should never change on a Standard stroke.

A great stroke finishes with the proper (for you) finish position....SPF=randyg

Scott Lee
10-18-2007, 10:43 AM
3andstop...One thing many people fail to understand is that followthrough is not something you MAKE happen. As pooltchr noted, followthrough is the RESULT of finishing your stroke. The amount of followthrough (defined as the distance the tip travels past where the CB sits) is predetermined by a person's body style. Making your cue follow past the CB a longer distance (by dropping your elbow) does not create more followthrough...nor does it have any effect on what happens with the CB!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Absolutely true. I don't care what any expert says about this topic. A smooth complete follow through is KEY to consistent success. It allows your delivery to be accurate because contacting the cue ball is neither the beginning or end of the event, it is merely a portion of it during the event.

buzzsaw
10-18-2007, 11:01 AM
3andstop...One thing many people fail to understand is that followthrough is not something you MAKE happen. As pooltchr noted, followthrough is the RESULT of finishing your stroke. The amount of followthrough (defined as the distance the tip travels past where the CB sits) is predetermined by a person's body style. Making your cue follow past the CB a longer distance (by dropping your elbow) does not create more followthrough...nor does it have any effect on what happens with the CB!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott, please explain what you mean by "body style". You talk about finishing your stroke and that is exactly what I was refering to. You also say that it is something that you can not MAKE happen. I am having a hard time with this one. If you do not practice, therefore making something HAPPEN, how do you ever get to the point of success? A perfect swing with follow through doesn't just happen on it's own.

I respect your position on this matter, I am just trying to understand.

mikepage
10-18-2007, 11:50 AM
first,

[...]followthrough (defined as the distance the tip travels past where the CB sits) [...]

And then,

Making your cue follow past the CB a longer distance ([...]) does not create more followthrough.[...]


You only get to pick one of these.

JohnnyP
10-18-2007, 12:11 PM
Scott:

Please look at a one minute segment of the video below, and comment on Ray's follow through.

The part I'm interested in starts at 19 minutes 0 seconds.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8294808311951707336

goettlicher
10-18-2007, 12:24 PM
Scott, please explain what you mean by "body style". You talk about finishing your stroke and that is exactly what I was refering to. You also say that it is something that you can not MAKE happen. I am having a hard time with this one. If you do not practice, therefore making something HAPPEN, how do you ever get to the point of success? A perfect swing with follow through doesn't just happen on it's own.

I respect your position on this matter, I am just trying to understand.


I'm not Scott...BUT, "A perfect swing with follow through doesn't just happen on it's own."

A perfect swing includes the follow through as part of the perfect action. Therefore a follow through is only a important part of a perfect swing. Yes you must practice a perfect stroke to have a perfect strroke....SPF=randyg

JohnnyP
10-18-2007, 12:38 PM
Randy: Would you take a look and comment on Ray Martin's stroke?

buzzsaw
10-18-2007, 12:49 PM
I'm not Scott...BUT, "A perfect swing with follow through doesn't just happen on it's own."

A perfect swing includes the follow through as part of the perfect action. Therefore a follow through is only a important part of a perfect swing. Yes you must practice a perfect stroke to have a perfect strroke....SPF=randyg

Originally Posted by buzzsaw
Steve, I agree with you.

IMO it comes down to the follow through more than the back swing. I say that because if I take a longer back swing I don't seem to get the needed distance for a complete follow though. I have a tendancy to slap at the CB. Like in golf, I try to make sure my follow through distance is longer than the back swing. With a short back swing I generally get my complete stroke.

my .02

Jezzzz Buzzsaw. The longer length of follow through is an Urban Myth. The cueball is gone in about 1/1000 of a second. No amount of follow through will change the energy in the cueball.

All SOP shots should have the same length follow through. How you get to the cueball is more important.

Thanks.

SPF=randyg
Randy, I didn't say "I don't seem to get the needed distance(s) for a complete follow though" I said distance. I realize your not going to get anything else depending on how far the tip goes beyond the CB. I just said my follow through distance is longer than my back swing, that's all.

bsmutz
10-18-2007, 01:01 PM
Scott, if you were giving lessons to Mini-me (Verne Troyer), would you have him shoot with a shorter cue? If he was short-stroking the ball, would you teach him to drop his elbow to get more stroke on the ball? If he couldn't reach the table, would you have him stand on a box, use a periscope & bridge, or teach him to cut the legs down until he could reach? (Just stuff I've always wondered about. No intention to market pool equipment for height challenged pool playing individuals.)

buzzsaw
10-18-2007, 01:08 PM
Scott, if you were giving lessons to Mini-me, would you have him shoot with a shorter cue? If he was short-stroking the ball, would you teach him to drop his elbow to get more stroke on the ball? If he couldn't reach the table, would you have him stand on a box, use a periscope & bridge, or teach him to cut the legs down until he could reach? (Just stuff I've always wondered about. No intention to market pool equipment for height challenged pool playing individuals.)
Looks like a champion in the making right there!:)

goettlicher
10-18-2007, 06:34 PM
Randy, I didn't say "I don't seem to get the needed distance(s) for a complete follow though" I said distance. I realize your not going to get anything else depending on how far the tip goes beyond the CB. I just said my follow through distance is longer than my back swing, that's all.


Gotcha. Good shooting....SPF=randyg

Scott Lee
10-18-2007, 08:10 PM
first,



And then,



You only get to pick one of these.

Mike...The first one describes the perfect pendulum swing, with a natural finish. The second one describes dropping the elbow, which causes the tip to finish far past a 'natural finish'. That's what I'm talking about, when I say "make followthrough happen"...pushing the cue farther through the CB intentionally. You can do it, but it doesn't make any change in what happens with the CB...so why do it? My position is that since contact is 1/1000th of a second long, dropping the elbow does nothing to enhance the stroke, and is therefore unecessary.

Scott Lee

SPINDOKTOR
10-18-2007, 08:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsmutz
Scott, if you were giving lessons to Mini-me, would you have him shoot with a shorter cue? If he was short-stroking the ball, would you teach him to drop his elbow to get more stroke on the ball? If he couldn't reach the table, would you have him stand on a box, use a periscope & bridge, or teach him to cut the legs down until he could reach? (Just stuff I've always wondered about. No intention to market pool equipment for height challenged pool playing individuals.)


Just stuff I've always wondered about. No intention to market pool equipment for height challenged pool playing individuals.)

lol, Dont you think its rediculous to expect a player to grab the very end of the cue when the same people will talk about how important balance is?

taller people with longer arms need a longer cue, Same as in golf, a club to short will result in poor fundamentals. or trying to wear shoes thats to tight, all your doing is constraining yourself.. Why dont you play one of these "experts" with them using just the shaft, hey you can grab the very end right? thats how it feels to a tall guy using a toothpick, yet they are expected to play fundamentaly correct, why do I even bother... oooooooooo brother.

SPINDOKTOR

Scott Lee
10-18-2007, 08:37 PM
spindoktor...I don't think anybody is arguing that taller people MAY benefit from a longer cue, but that it is far from mandatory. My position is that taller people can still play effectively with a regular length cue...they just have to hold the cue in a different place. It has absolutely nothing to do with the cue's "balance point". You keep mentioning playing with a 'toothpick', but the weight of the cue has nothing to do with the length. A taller player might feel more comfortable with a 21oz cue vs. an 18oz cue. It's all in how they are able to swing the cuestick through a natural pendulum swing. You used Shaq as an extreme example, and I noted that I'd already successfully worked with tall players (6'5") who used a regular length cue (58"-59").

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Snoogi
10-18-2007, 10:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsmutz
Scott, if you were giving lessons to Mini-me, would you have him shoot with a shorter cue? If he was short-stroking the ball, would you teach him to drop his elbow to get more stroke on the ball? If he couldn't reach the table, would you have him stand on a box, use a periscope & bridge, or teach him to cut the legs down until he could reach? (Just stuff I've always wondered about. No intention to market pool equipment for height challenged pool playing individuals.)


Just stuff I've always wondered about. No intention to market pool equipment for height challenged pool playing individuals.)

lol, Dont you think its rediculous to expect a player to grab the very end of the cue when the same people will talk about how important balance is?

taller people with longer arms need a longer cue, Same as in golf, a club to short will result in poor fundamentals. or trying to wear shoes thats to tight, all your doing is constraining yourself.. Why dont you play one of these "experts" with them using just the shaft, hey you can grab the very end right? thats how it feels to a tall guy using a toothpick, yet they are expected to play fundamentaly correct, why do I even bother... oooooooooo brother.

SPINDOKTOR
I think an earlier post somewhere stated that the tools gotta be similar or something close to make reasonable comparison..difference in a few inches is still fine but not extreme as in between a full cue and just the shaft..or toothpick..JMO.

cuetechasaurus
10-19-2007, 12:19 AM
I think if you are shortening your backstroke because you feel you are losing control of your stroke, you should just shorten your bridge and still take as full a stroke as your bridge length will allow. For me, when I shorten my backstrokes, it causes muscle tension and causes me to play tentatively. Just try to relax and let your stroke out, eventually your stroke will groove itself on a straight path.

pooltchr
10-19-2007, 03:03 AM
.. Why dont you play one of these "experts" with them using just the shaft,

SPINDOKTOR

I've got a 20 that says Scott wins that match!
Steve

pooltchr
10-19-2007, 03:05 AM
I think if you are shortening your backstroke because you feel you are losing control of your stroke, you should just shorten your bridge and still take as full a stroke as your bridge length will allow. For me, when I shorten my backstrokes, it causes muscle tension and causes me to play tentatively. Just try to relax and let your stroke out, eventually your stroke will groove itself on a straight path.

Good suggestion!
Steve

3kushn
10-19-2007, 06:23 AM
Mike...The first one describes the perfect pendulum swing, with a natural finish. The second one describes dropping the elbow, which causes the tip to finish far past a 'natural finish'. That's what I'm talking about, when I say "make followthrough happen"...pushing the cue farther through the CB intentionally. You can do it, but it doesn't make any change in what happens with the CB...so why do it? My position is that since contact is 1/1000th of a second long, dropping the elbow does nothing to enhance the stroke, and is therefore unecessary.

Scott Lee
I can't argue that no additional action on the CB occurs with an xagerated follow through but for me this is the only way I've found to stroke through the ball. Otherwise I feel I'm punching it. Therefore with this added motion I do get additional action and accuracy via a better stroke.

The same kind of motion Ray Martin had on the stroke JohnnyP pointed out.
I've heard that a karate guy breaking a board he aims past the board. The board is broke but the fist or foot continues way past the breaking stage.

Hope this makes sense. We talked about it in my lesson.

SPINDOKTOR
10-19-2007, 09:40 AM
I've got a 20 that says Scott wins that match!
Steve


Considering the source, ill just laugh... :D Then again, like I said earlier I may swing by to talk with Scott, may Challenge him to a game, and If he were to beat me then Id consider taking some lessons, so practice up buddy, the Doktor is comming to town...


SPINDOKTOR

goettlicher
10-19-2007, 05:30 PM
Randy: Would you take a look and comment on Ray Martin's stroke?


Well I did watch that video.

Ray's stroke?

Old school perfect. Get's through his cueball in great shape. Nothing that I had never watched before. It was interesting about the elbow drop statement. Ray tries to tell the people the correct way although he does drop his elbow on a few follow shots. It's a #3 elbow drop so it dosen't mean much for Ray.

Wish I could run as many balls as Martin still does....SPF=randyg

Snoogi
10-19-2007, 07:12 PM
I shorten a paragraph from a book (pool player's edge)..quick fixes-swing. There're 6 headings, I'll just extract 2..

Loosing control: The primary reason players lose control over the cue stick as they attempt a shot is pulling back too far on the cue before their delivery. To correct an errant backswing, shoot a few racks with a very short bridge so that you can't pull the cue back as far (too far will pull your cue off your bridge). You'll gain quick control over your cue. You can then slowly work your way up to a longer backswing without loss of control, until you arrive in your comfort zone.

Crossing over: Most players, even pros, have abit of crossover in their strokes, which they've learned to compensate for with slight aiming and cueing adjustments. Begin every practice session and match with a few long straight in shots using a center ball hit. This method is called finding center ball (it seems easy theoretically), and it forces you to check your body to make sure you're delivering the stroke you want.

There was a very short period I pull back very far about 12 inches bridge gripping the butt end, I've adjusted back to normal..

Not sure about others but the above methods did helped me in some ways..

JohnnyP
10-19-2007, 08:20 PM
Thank you Randy for the comment. What's a level 3 drop? Like 0 is no drop, 10 is to the floor?

Did you ever see his hand come toward his chest? It just goes straight forward.

I sometimes forget to take my cell phone out of my chect pocket, and I've launched it onto the table a couple times.

3kushn
10-20-2007, 05:07 AM
Thank you Randy for the comment. What's a level 3 drop? Like 0 is no drop, 10 is to the floor?

Did you ever see his hand come toward his chest? It just goes straight forward.

I sometimes forget to take my cell phone out of my chect pocket, and I've launched it onto the table a couple times.
I thought I saw his elbow drop long after the CB was on it's way?
Guess I'll have to look again.

whitewolf
10-20-2007, 06:59 AM
I have been noticing something about my game. The longer the backswing the more i miss.

The best advice I ever got was concerning rhythm.

The second best advice came from Tony Robles. He said: "WHATEVER YOU DO, MAKE SURE THAT YOUR FINAL STROKE COMES BACK TO SAME EXACT PLACE AS YOUR HAND DID ON YOUR FINAL PRACTICE STROKE.

My advice: Now if you take loose practice strokes, letting your arm come back to a point where everything seems natural on your final practice stroke, you will find that this point may be over reached on your final stroke because it is TOO long. If you go beyond that natural point, your wrist will begin to twist and all kinds of weird shit may happen.

I apologize for giving out one of Tony's secrets, so I will add that he has been the best instructor that I have had. Well worth my money.

Scott Lee
10-20-2007, 07:05 AM
double post

Scott Lee
10-20-2007, 07:05 AM
double post

Scott Lee
10-20-2007, 07:09 AM
I may swing by to talk with Scott, may Challenge him to a game, and If he were to beat me then Id consider taking some lessons...


SPINDOKTOR

Sorry...I'll have to pass! There's nothing I could teach you... (I don't cater to the old adage: "if you can't beat me, you can't teach me"). Best of luck to you improving your game.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

goettlicher
10-20-2007, 04:51 PM
Thank you Randy for the comment. What's a level 3 drop? Like 0 is no drop, 10 is to the floor?

Did you ever see his hand come toward his chest? It just goes straight forward.

I sometimes forget to take my cell phone out of my chect pocket, and I've launched it onto the table a couple times.


Not a level three but a number three elbow drop. That's after he strikes the cueball.
On every draw shot his hand came to his chest. On every follow shot I don't know were his hand went.....SPF=randyg

SPINDOKTOR
10-20-2007, 10:13 PM
[QUOTE=Scott Lee]Sorry...I'll have to pass! There's nothing I could teach you... (I don't cater to the old adage: "if you can't beat me, you can't teach me"). Best of luck to you improving your game.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com[/QUOTE


Im flattered... I also understand, I wouldnt want to play me either...


SPINDOKTOR

pooltchr
10-21-2007, 03:23 AM
I wouldn't be flattered. I think the message here is someone believes that someone else isn't ready to learn.
Steve

SPINDOKTOR
10-21-2007, 04:06 PM
I wouldn't be flattered. I think the message here is someone believes that someone else isn't ready to learn.
Steve

Yes Im aware of that but basicaly refusing me into his school is hard on the ego, I sure wouldnt refuse anyone even if I knew they could beat me, anyone who has ever picked up a cue has room to learn. Im no different. As far as beating Scott, who cares, really, I dont, I just wanted to see if he would play.. I recieved my answer.. Disapointed? a lil I suppose but I wont hold that against him.

I told Scott I enjoy his posts but like anyone else I am skeptical in certain areas and question the guy or gal posting so I can personaly better understand thier mentality. I believe people take this to seriously at times, If I ofended Scott, I appolgize. :rolleyes:


SPINDOKTOR

kildegirl
10-21-2007, 08:35 PM
[/quote], The Cue Cannot Pocket Balls. Only The Cue Ball Can Pocket Balls. When You Think You Are Looking At A Perfectly Straight Shot, What If The Shot Is Off By 4/ 5 / 6 Millimeters ???, Will You Miss The Shot? There Is A Method By Which You Will Allways Make A Perfectly Straight Shot. There Is Also An Aiming System Used By Efren, Bustamante, And A Whole Host Of Other Filipino Players. Are You Acquanted With Their Aiming Methods???

484 623 4144

Scott Lee
10-21-2007, 09:02 PM
Spindoktor...You haven't offended me at all! I did not refuse you entry into my school, or to take a private lesson. All I said was, if you are of the mind of "if you can't beat me, you can't teach me", then your mind is closed, and I cannot help you. I did not refuse to play you...I refused to play you, to get you to take a lesson. I will play anyone anytime...and anyone that knows me knows this. I get beat by top players all the time, but I still work with them, because they KNOW what they don't know! :D You can be skeptical...that's your privilege. Some students even come to pool school skeptical. For them we offer a refund at the end of the first day if they're not satisfied. So far nobody has asked...that probably says something valuable. My mentality is about helping others to teach themselves to be the best player they want to be...regardless of their current skill level. Am I the best instructor? Probably not...but I sure am ONE of the best out there, and it keeps me plenty busy!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Yes Im aware of that but basicaly refusing me into his school is hard on the ego, I sure wouldnt refuse anyone even if I knew they could beat me, anyone who has ever picked up a cue has room to learn. Im no different. As far as beating Scott, who cares, really, I dont, I just wanted to see if he would play.. I recieved my answer.. Disapointed? a lil I suppose but I wont hold that against him.

I told Scott I enjoy his posts but like anyone else I am skeptical in certain areas and question the guy or gal posting so I can personaly better understand thier mentality. I believe people take this to seriously at times, If I ofended Scott, I appolgize. :rolleyes:


SPINDOKTOR

goettlicher
10-22-2007, 06:34 AM
Well stated.

You are one of the best and we are proud of you.......SPF=randyg

SPINDOKTOR
10-22-2007, 09:53 AM
:D Spindoktor...You haven't offended me at all! I did not refuse you entry into my school, or to take a private lesson. All I said was, if you are of the mind of "if you can't beat me, you can't teach me", then your mind is closed, and I cannot help you. I did not refuse to play you...I refused to play you, to get you to take a lesson. I will play anyone anytime...and anyone that knows me knows this. I get beat by top players all the time, but I still work with them, because they KNOW what they don't know! :D You can be skeptical...that's your privilege. Some students even come to pool school skeptical. For them we offer a refund at the end of the first day if they're not satisfied. So far nobody has asked...that probably says something valuable. My mentality is about helping others to teach themselves to be the best player they want to be...regardless of their current skill level. Am I the best instructor? Probably not...but I sure am ONE of the best out there, and it keeps me plenty busy!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com



I dont doubt your ability at all, like I was saying I was quite interested in some stroke training myself. Im ready to take my game to the next level, A world beater likely not, but I'll scare the hell out of em.. lol



SPINDOKTOR

Scott Lee
10-22-2007, 01:24 PM
spindoktor...Was or AM? Whenever you're ready, you know how to find me!:D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

:D I dont doubt your ability at all, like I was saying I was quite interested in some stroke training myself. Im ready to take my game to the next level, A world beater likely not, but I'll scare the hell out of em.. lol

SPINDOKTOR