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View Full Version : You might like this experiment: squirt video rev.


mikepage
10-17-2007, 04:39 PM
I completely redid my squirt/swerve video --fixing the invisible blue lines (sorry), shortening the more academic stuff, etc.

But significantly I added a four minute clip in the middle demonstrating stuff at the table including an experiment you might enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXJ7bDafTms

Jude Rosenstock
10-17-2007, 05:27 PM
I cannot say this side of pool instruction has ever really interested me however, this study is fascinating. You really did go out of your way to conduct experiments that I've never seen published and showed results I didn't expect. I do question how practical such knowledge is for the average person looking to improve their game however, I can see how something like this could influence future cue products.

mikepage
10-18-2007, 04:34 AM
I cannot say this side of pool instruction has ever really interested me however, this study is fascinating. You really did go out of your way to conduct experiments that I've never seen published and showed results I didn't expect. I do question how practical such knowledge is for the average person looking to improve their game however, I can see how something like this could influence future cue products.

Hey thanks Jude.

(inserted the "thanks" so I wouldn't have to break into song)

Ralph Kramden
10-18-2007, 07:44 AM
Interesting video. If the cueball deflects (squirts) more using a cue with more mass at the tip and less with a low deflection shaft, the deflection of a low deflection shaft, off the cueball, would be more than a heavier tip shaft. The lighter shaft would have more of a tendency to bounce off the cueball when hit off center instead of pushing the cueball off line.
When hit on center the cueball would move forward with all the force of the cue. The force of the off center hit has to go not only forward but also away from contact point whether it is either the cueball or the shaft that deflects.
I would like to know what effect this would have on a drawshot. Would a low deflection have a tendency to draw less than a shaft with more mass?

JoeW
10-18-2007, 08:59 AM
Thanks Mike. That was a very interesting presentation. I have read about the pivot point before but now have a much better understanding thanks to your presentation. I liked the vice grip example that makes the point well.

Do you have a recommended method for determing the optimal pivot point?

Do you have more videos that I can access?

mikepage
10-18-2007, 09:27 AM
[...]

Do you have a recommended method for determing the optimal pivot point?


Though everybody should play around with it a little to see what the fuss is about, I don't actually people do the aim&pivot (backhand) english thing in any regular way. In the real world object ball throw as well as variations in swerve from shot to shot messes things up too much.

It's a good idea to learn the pivot-point test in this FAQ.

http://www.sfbilliards.com/faq.html

It's hard to do it accurately, but at least you'll have quick way of figuring out whether a new cue is higher or lower or similar squirt to what you're accustomed to.

Do you have more videos that I can access?

There's a handful of them here

http://www.youtube.com/FargoBilliards

Flex
10-18-2007, 10:11 AM
Though everybody should play around with it a little to see what the fuss is about, I don't actually people do the aim&pivot (backhand) english thing in any regular way. In the real world object ball throw as well as variations in swerve from shot to shot messes things up too much.



I've found the point and pivot method to be remarkably consistent, at least for shots at distances from about a ball's width away (cue ball to object ball distance) up to about 4 diamonds. Perhaps I should say I've found it to be consistent dependent upon stroke speed, while varying the pivot point for each shot. Cues are different, of course, but with an OB-1 shaft, or a Predator shaft, or shafts with similar squirt characteristics, once figuring out where to pivot the shaft, consistency goes way up. With high squirt shafts, it's not easy to adapt to.

I don't know how to explain how it's done in written fashion, at least not easily, but I'd be happy to show someone in person how to make it work. By the way, it's quite systematic, and helps very much in figuring out how much throw will be imparted to the object ball for a particular shot.

Sheesh, I wish it were simple to commit to paper. :confused:

Perhaps if I see Patrick Johnson at Chris's I could show it to him and get his take on it.

Flex

Patrick Johnson
10-18-2007, 10:53 AM
I've found the point and pivot method to be remarkably consistent, at least for shots at distances from about a ball's width away (cue ball to object ball distance) up to about 4 diamonds. Perhaps I should say I've found it to be consistent dependent upon stroke speed, while varying the pivot point for each shot.

This is a little hard to interpret. How can using the pivot point be consistent while varying the pivot point?

Cues are different, of course, but with an OB-1 shaft, or a Predator shaft, or shafts with similar squirt characteristics, once figuring out where to pivot the shaft, consistency goes way up. With high squirt shafts, it's not easy to adapt to.

Actually, I think high-squirt shafts are better for pivoting because the effective pivot point (including swerve) is closer to the bridge, so you can use "backhand" english (pivoting the cue at the bridge to compensate for squirt/swerve).

By the way, it's quite systematic, and helps very much in figuring out how much throw will be imparted to the object ball for a particular shot.

I can't figure how it would help in figuring throw, which is independent of squirt/swerve.

Perhaps if I see Patrick Johnson at Chris's I could show it to him and get his take on it.

It's about time for my quarterly drubbing by Paul Navarette - will you be around this weekend?

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson
10-18-2007, 10:55 AM
I completely redid my squirt/swerve video --fixing the invisible blue lines (sorry), shortening the more academic stuff, etc.

But significantly I added a four minute clip in the middle demonstrating stuff at the table including an experiment you might enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXJ7bDafTms
Hey, I'm famous! When can I expect the first royalty check, Mike?

p "Hollywood" j, Consultant to the Stars
chgo

JoeW
10-18-2007, 11:06 AM
Thanks Mike, I am now an official subscriber to YouTube and your stuff. Could not find the SFB discussion but I'll keep trying.

mikepage
10-18-2007, 11:33 AM
Thanks Mike, I am now an official subscriber to YouTube and your stuff. Could not find the SFB discussion but I'll keep trying.


It's part of the response to item 7, ** How should I choose a cue?

The "aim-and-pivot" method of squirt compensation:

For each cue stick, there is a particular length of bridge for
which you can aim straight at a close object ball and then pivot
about your bridge hand and shoot straight through the new line and
hit the object ball full. (You can also use this (very old) method
for non-full shots too, but a full shot is best for finding the
right bridge length.) For a stick you want to measure, just find
the needed bridge length. A hint: if you shoot softly at a ball
far away, the cue ball will curve on its way to the object ball,
and your measurement will be useless. Do not give the cue ball the
time or distance to curve. Shoot firmly. Use as much side spin
as you can without miscuing. The shorter the bridge, the more
squirt the stick has. ("Close object ball" means about a diamond
away.) The cue ball should sit in place spinning like a top when
it hits the object ball full.

For a long pivot length, the bridge is too long to be a comfortable
pivot. Arrange to have the pivot over the rail, and use your back
hand to hold the stick at the pivot while the bridge hand moves.
An alternative is to slide the bridge hand forward after the pivot
to a more comfortable bridge length. Take care to keep the stick
aligned in the new direction.

If several cues are available, including house cues, compare them.

Squirt is the most important characteristic of a cue stick after solid
construction. Less squirt is usually better, especially if you use
something close to "parallel aiming" on spin shots. More squirt means
more aiming compensation on any shot with side spin. The one possible
advantage of squirt is that if the pivot length is the same length as
the bridge, it can compensate for inaccuracies left-to-right in the final
stroke.

Here is a further description of how to use the aim-and-pivot method
to compensate for squirt when using side spin:

The squirt pivot point is the point on the cue such that if
you first aim using a dead center hit, then pivot the cue
about that point to apply left or right hand english, the
cueball will still take off in the original aiming direction.
The lower the cue's squirt characteristic, the further from
the tip will be this pivot point.

If the pivot point of a very low squirt cue is all the way
back at the grip hand, you would aim center-ball and then
move the bridge hand (i.e. pivot about the grip hand) to
eliminate the necessity for compensating for the squirt.

If the pivot point of a very high squirt cue were located
where the bridge hand is normally placed, you would aim
center-ball and then move the grip hand left/right for the
english (i.e. pivot about the bridge hand).

djkx1
10-18-2007, 11:41 AM
I enjoyed the video and found it to be informative and interesting. The thing that blew me away far more than anything else is seeing you actually use a vicegrip on a Tim Scruggs cue.:eek: :eek:

mikepage
10-18-2007, 11:52 AM
I enjoyed the video and found it to be informative and interesting. The thing that blew me away far more than anything else is seeing you actually use a vicegrip on a Tim Scruggs cue.:eek: :eek:

Well, there might have been just a little artistic license there :-) ...

Patrick Johnson
10-18-2007, 01:37 PM
The thing that blew me away far more than anything else is seeing you actually use a vicegrip on a Tim Scruggs cue.

Well, there might have been just a little artistic license there :-) ...
Maybe, but I know from past experiments of yours that being a cue in your basement is a lot like being a Muslim at Guantanamo.

pj
chgo

mikepage
10-18-2007, 02:00 PM
Maybe, but I know from past experiments of yours that being a cue in your basement is a lot like being a Muslim at Guantanamo.

pj
chgo

Fortunately the Geneva Conventions didn't say much about cues.

This was from my experiment on whether shaft flexibility affects squirt

Tennesseejoe
10-18-2007, 03:08 PM
Very interesting video. Thanks for all the work and keep it coming.

Catahula
10-18-2007, 03:20 PM
Great post Mike! I can hardly wait to get a Scruggs (I have the vise grips) so I can try and duplicate it.

Flex
10-18-2007, 08:01 PM
This is a little hard to interpret. How can using the pivot point be consistent while varying the pivot point?



Actually, I think high-squirt shafts are better for pivoting because the effective pivot point (including swerve) is closer to the bridge, so you can use "backhand" english (pivoting the cue at the bridge to compensate for squirt/swerve).



I can't figure how it would help in figuring throw, which is independent of squirt/swerve.



It's about time for my quarterly drubbing by Paul Navarette - will you be around this weekend?

pj
chgo

Pat,

It's precisely because I find it difficult to commit to paper that I'd like to show you what I'm referring to in person.

Maybe you'll find it to be of some use.

Actually, I hesitated in posting my response because I knew it would be insufficient to be convincing, but I thought I'd at least get the ball rolling, so to speak. I acknowledge my cursory lines are not persuasive, however I started my experiment watching someone shoot a particularly difficult shot using a point and pivot method for a soft shot at very close range, and I started experimenting with the concept, and discovered several things about pivot points, or at least the way it works for me.

Unfortunately, I'm out of town at the moment and won't be back until the middle of next week. Perhaps I could show you what I've found to be the case, at least for me and for the cue and tip I use.

And yes, I maintain that the method I discovered is quite consistent.

Have to show you...

Flex

Boro Nut
10-19-2007, 01:24 PM
Post deleted
Boro Nut