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wincardona
10-18-2007, 12:41 AM
I have been reading opinions on who the best was in all the games,and I personally feel that Reyes was clearly the best all around player that ever jointed a cue. Reyes is in the top 3 of 10 ball players,and could be the best. He is the best 8 ball player ever,best rotation player ever,and the best onepocket player ever.That leaves straight pool,and who knows how many balls he would of run if he played 14.1 regularly?? 1,000 maybe,think about it. Jay thinks Ronnie would be a favorite against Reyes playing one hole,but in my opinion Reyes was a solid ball better.I rarely disagree with Jay ,but on this one he's got action.Jay, how can you say that Ronnie was a better shot maker than Reyes,really.Ronnie couldn't give kelly 9 to 8 ,but Reyes can easily give Joyner 10 to 8.Incidentally,Reyes is the best Balk line player in the world too. I think I spelled that right,but in case I didn't that's still my opinion.

The reason I didn't include 9 ball is the break is too much a factor in the outcome, and when you judge who the best is I can't allow the big breaker to cloud the issue.

Fast Lenny
10-18-2007, 12:44 AM
I have been reading opinions on who the best was in all the games,and I personally feel that Reyes was clearly the best all around player that ever jointed a cue. Reyes is in the top 3 of 10 ball players,and could be the best. He is the best 8 ball player ever,best rotation player ever,and the best onepocket player ever.That leaves straight pool,and who knows how many balls he would of run if he played 14.1 regularly?? 1,000 maybe,think about it. Jay thinks Ronnie would be a favorite against Reyes playing one hole,but in my opinion Reyes was a solid ball better.I rarely disagree with Jay ,but on this one he's got action.Jay, how can you say that Ronnie was a better shot maker than Reyes,really.Ronnie couldn't give kelly 9 to 8 ,but Reyes can easily give Joyner 10 to 8.Incidentally,Reyes is the best Balk line player in the world too. I think I spelled that right,but in case I didn't that's still my opinion.
I would say 75% of the knowledgeable pool world agrees on this,he is the greatest living player.

gobrian77
10-18-2007, 12:45 AM
He can play a little 9-ball too.;)

Nobody but NOBODY can get out of being snookered like Reyes- he sees the layout of the table so well.:eek:

JoeyInCali
10-18-2007, 01:01 AM
If they only played games with 15 balls on the table, Efren would dominate to this day.
Be in one-hole, straight-pool, 8-ball or banks.

AZE
10-18-2007, 01:05 AM
He's a phenom, and THANK GOODNESS he was born into pool. It wouldn't be the same without him.

hemicudas
10-18-2007, 01:47 AM
I have been reading opinions on who the best was in all the games,and I personally feel that Reyes was clearly the best all around player that ever jointed a cue. Reyes is in the top 3 of 10 ball players,and could be the best. He is the best 8 ball player ever,best rotation player ever,and the best onepocket player ever.That leaves straight pool,and who knows how many balls he would of run if he played 14.1 regularly?? 1,000 maybe,think about it. Jay thinks Ronnie would be a favorite against Reyes playing one hole,but in my opinion Reyes was a solid ball better.I rarely disagree with Jay ,but on this one he's got action.Jay, how can you say that Ronnie was a better shot maker than Reyes,really.Ronnie couldn't give kelly 9 to 8 ,but Reyes can easily give Joyner 10 to 8.Incidentally,Reyes is the best Balk line player in the world too. I think I spelled that right,but in case I didn't that's still my opinion.

The reason I didn't include 9 ball is the break is too much a factor in the outcome, and when you judge who the best is I can't allow the big breaker to cloud the issue.

First, I agree, Billy. Efren is the best ever. I did though like Ronnie's end playing one pocket, like Jay, until the 2006 DCC. That performance put Efren a 10-9 favorite over Ronnie in my mind. Plus you have to consider Efren is 50+ and getting better at one pocket where Ronnie's skills started to deminish at 50. We are extremely lucky to be able to watch the greatest ever and should never miss a chance to better our game by watching.

asn130
10-18-2007, 02:12 AM
I have been reading opinions on who the best was in all the games,and I personally feel that Reyes was clearly the best all around player that ever jointed a cue. Reyes is in the top 3 of 10 ball players,and could be the best. He is the best 8 ball player ever,best rotation player ever,and the best onepocket player ever.That leaves straight pool,and who knows how many balls he would of run if he played 14.1 regularly?? 1,000 maybe,think about it. Jay thinks Ronnie would be a favorite against Reyes playing one hole,but in my opinion Reyes was a solid ball better.I rarely disagree with Jay ,but on this one he's got action.Jay, how can you say that Ronnie was a better shot maker than Reyes,really.Ronnie couldn't give kelly 9 to 8 ,but Reyes can easily give Joyner 10 to 8.Incidentally,Reyes is the best Balk line player in the world too. I think I spelled that right,but in case I didn't that's still my opinion.

The reason I didn't include 9 ball is the break is too much a factor in the outcome, and when you judge who the best is I can't allow the big breaker to cloud the issue.

i recently bought the accustats dvd from the 2006 derby with Efren vs Alex P & Efren vs Jason Miller. (i think you were there Billy :D )

If it is possible to play better 1-hole, i don't see how.

Alex played a very very good game & came off with some great shots. Efren ran him over like a dump truck.

Jason Miller must have been watching the semi final match, or saw the tire marks on Alex's forehead, because he played like he knew he didn't have a chance. And he didn't.

Since you were there Billy, do you remember how many times Efren ran at least 8 during his games?

As you said during the match, i don't think anyone has ever played the game better. Not that i've seen every great 1 pocket player, just that i don't see how it's possible to play at a higher level.

cuetechasaurus
10-18-2007, 02:40 AM
The amazing thing about Efren is that even when his game is a bit off and he's struggling (according to him), he still runs out, and wins tournaments.

Andrew Manning
10-18-2007, 04:23 AM
Incidentally,Reyes is the best Balk line player in the world too. I think I spelled that right,but in case I didn't that's still my opinion.

Billy, I agree with most of your post, and I think the consensus on the forum agrees with most of your post, but surely you're not saying Reyes is a better baulk-line player than Frederic Caudron? The guy's strung together baulk-line world championships the way Mosconi used to string 14.1 world championships, absolutely dominating the game.

I hear from carom players that while Efren is a very good carom billiards player, he's not good enough to compete with the top few players.

Anyway, the part about all-around best ever, I can agree with.

-Andrew

Blackjack
10-18-2007, 04:28 AM
I have been reading opinions on who the best was in all the games,and I personally feel that Reyes was clearly the best all around player that ever jointed a cue. Reyes is in the top 3 of 10 ball players,and could be the best. He is the best 8 ball player ever,best rotation player ever,and the best onepocket player ever.That leaves straight pool,and who knows how many balls he would of run if he played 14.1 regularly?? 1,000 maybe,think about it. Jay thinks Ronnie would be a favorite against Reyes playing one hole,but in my opinion Reyes was a solid ball better.I rarely disagree with Jay ,but on this one he's got action.Jay, how can you say that Ronnie was a better shot maker than Reyes,really.Ronnie couldn't give kelly 9 to 8 ,but Reyes can easily give Joyner 10 to 8.Incidentally,Reyes is the best Balk line player in the world too. I think I spelled that right,but in case I didn't that's still my opinion.

The reason I didn't include 9 ball is the break is too much a factor in the outcome, and when you judge who the best is I can't allow the big breaker to cloud the issue.

Billy

Excellent post! In that thread, I had Efren listed as #4 on my 9 ball list, only because (personally) I was influenced MORE by the players I put above him. However, I do consider him - without question - the best player out of all the players on my 9 ball list, and he is by far the best all around player I have ever witnessed.

Also, FWIW, I don't consider Efren the best "living" player - I consider him the best EVER - mostly because of his superb skills in all disciplines.

sjm
10-18-2007, 05:06 AM
I have been reading opinions on who the best was in all the games,and I personally feel that Reyes was clearly the best all around player that ever jointed a cue. Reyes is in the top 3 of 10 ball players,and could be the best. He is the best 8 ball player ever,best rotation player ever,and the best onepocket player ever.That leaves straight pool,and who knows how many balls he would of run if he played 14.1 regularly?? 1,000 maybe,think about it. Jay thinks Ronnie would be a favorite against Reyes playing one hole,but in my opinion Reyes was a solid ball better.I rarely disagree with Jay ,but on this one he's got action.Jay, how can you say that Ronnie was a better shot maker than Reyes,really.Ronnie couldn't give kelly 9 to 8 ,but Reyes can easily give Joyner 10 to 8.Incidentally,Reyes is the best Balk line player in the world too. I think I spelled that right,but in case I didn't that's still my opinion.

The reason I didn't include 9 ball is the break is too much a factor in the outcome, and when you judge who the best is I can't allow the big breaker to cloud the issue.

Great post. I agree with nearly all of it. Best balkline player? I doubt Efren would ever gamble with Fredric Caudron at balkline.

The one pocket topic is always the hardest. In the 1980's, Eddie Taylor said John "Rags" Fitzpatrick was the best ever, but Rags played the conservative grind-it-out style. Many who've seen him say that for that style of play, Rags was the best. Ronnie played a somewhat more aggressive style and most feel that Ronnie was the best at his style of play. Just as Ronnie had, Efren brought the game of one-pocket to the next level. Rags, Ronnie or Efren? Who's the best ever? I think there is a strong case for all three, but I won't argue with your choice of Efren.

In my view, the only player even worthy of consideration with Efren in the all-around category is Nick Varner, and, with due respect to Nick, he just doesn't measure up to the comparison. Efren is the best ever.

catscradle
10-18-2007, 05:16 AM
I would say 75% of the knowledgeable pool world agrees on this,he is the greatest living player.

... and even some of us not-so-knowledgeable members of the pool world would agree.

DrCue'sProtege
10-18-2007, 05:17 AM
In my view, the only player even worthy of consideration with Efren in the all-around category is Nick Varner, and, with due respect to Nick, he just doesn't measure up to the comparison. Efren is the best ever.

just curious here.........in 9-Ball, how many World Championships have Efren and Nick won? how many U.S. Open championships have Efren and Nick won? i do know that in 1994 Efren beat Nick in the U.S. Open finals.

DCP

Mike Templeton
10-18-2007, 05:49 AM
I have been reading opinions on who the best was in all the games,and I personally feel that Reyes was clearly the best all around player that ever jointed a cue. Reyes is in the top 3 of 10 ball players,and could be the best. He is the best 8 ball player ever,best rotation player ever,and the best onepocket player ever.That leaves straight pool,and who knows how many balls he would of run if he played 14.1 regularly?? 1,000 maybe,think about it. Jay thinks Ronnie would be a favorite against Reyes playing one hole,but in my opinion Reyes was a solid ball better.I rarely disagree with Jay ,but on this one he's got action.Jay, how can you say that Ronnie was a better shot maker than Reyes,really.Ronnie couldn't give kelly 9 to 8 ,but Reyes can easily give Joyner 10 to 8.Incidentally,Reyes is the best Balk line player in the world too. I think I spelled that right,but in case I didn't that's still my opinion.

The reason I didn't include 9 ball is the break is too much a factor in the outcome, and when you judge who the best is I can't allow the big breaker to cloud the issue.
I agree BIlly.

I think that one day people will look back and wish they were born in a time when they could have seen Efren play, just as they will look back and wish they had lived in a time when they could have watched Tiger Woods play golf.

We are all lucky to have been around to witness Efren's abilities.

Mike

gulfportdoc
10-18-2007, 06:25 AM
Plus you have to consider Efren is 50+ and getting better at one pocket where Ronnie's skills started to deminish at 50.
Just to add to your points, Bill: Efren's abilities were never dimished by the bottle. We'll never know how much more brilliant RA could have been on the natch.

Doc

uwate
10-18-2007, 07:01 AM
Efren Reyes
Tiger Woods
Michael Jordan

We live in a great era for sports fans :-)

mikepage
10-18-2007, 07:05 AM
Efren Reyes
Tiger Woods
Michael Jordan

We live in a great era for sports fans :-)

I think it's fair to say that Tiger Woods is the Efren Reyes of golf.

Thunderball
10-18-2007, 07:12 AM
I'm lost on who the hell the other 25% give the vote too.....

jsp
10-18-2007, 07:23 AM
http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.cfm?storynum=4757

On a somewhat related note, the article above states that Efren won the Q-Masters One-Pocket Warm-up from the losers side.

Does anyone know who put Efren on the losers side? Francisco? Rafael?

Blackjack
10-18-2007, 07:50 AM
just curious here.........in 9-Ball, how many World Championships have Efren and Nick won? how many U.S. Open championships have Efren and Nick won? i do know that in 1994 Efren beat Nick in the U.S. Open finals.

DCP


Efren won the US Open in 1994

but...

I believe Efren has been in the finals of the US Open several times...

He lost in the finals to Reed Pierce in 1995 - and to Rodney Morris in 1996 - so Efren made the finals 3 years in a row 94-95-96... WOW ... and I may not be accurately describing that - I don't know who was in the finals in 1997 or 1998.

Nick won the US Open in 1989 & 1990 back to back.

He also won over 16 tournaments in 1989 and 1990 - a streak that actually started at the end of 1988.

Nick has won World titles in 9 ball (1998), 14.1 (1980 and 1986) and he finsihed second a handful of times also.

Earl has won 5 US Opens and I forget how many world 9 ball titles and countless Pro Tour titles.

JoeyA
10-18-2007, 07:56 AM
I think it's fair to say that Tiger Woods is the Efren Reyes of golf.

A discussion in our pool hall with pool players and golfers, recently took place about Tiger Woods and Efren Reyes and the consensus was that Efren Reyes is the better of the two athletes in their respective fields.

JoeyA

Danny Kuykendal
10-18-2007, 08:04 AM
Quick story about Ronnie Allen and Richie Florence. When I worked at Goldenwest Billiards in the early 80s a man came in an talked about a trip he took with both Ronnie and Richie (sixties or seventies) back to play Minnesota Fats, somewhere in the midwest, I think.

He was hoping Fats would play nine ball, but after Fats refusing nine ball they agreed to one pocket with a spot of 9-7 or 8-6, I'm not sure if this included the break or not.

Regardless, Fatty beat em' both and lessened the spot and still won.
This man was impressed with Fat's game.

However, what could Efren have given Fatty, 10-6 and the break?

I watched Efren give Little Al Romero (fifteen years ago or so) 11-6 and the break, and honestly not much of a contest.

I felt good when I played Efren 11-6 and the break and broke even. Thankfully we played only two sets. I just wanted to play the man to say I did.

Danny

Thunderball
10-18-2007, 08:36 AM
I just wanted to play the man to say I did.

In a skinny minute.No doubt.

crosseyedjoe
10-18-2007, 08:45 AM
Billy, I agree with most of your post, and I think the consensus on the forum agrees with most of your post, but surely you're not saying Reyes is a better baulk-line player than Frederic Caudron? The guy's strung together baulk-line world championships the way Mosconi used to string 14.1 world championships, absolutely dominating the game.

I hear from carom players that while Efren is a very good carom billiards player, he's not good enough to compete with the top few players.

Anyway, the part about all-around best ever, I can agree with.

-Andrew

If I remembered it correctly in one of Effie's interviews, he said he stopped playing carom and balk line because no one wanted to play him anymore. Thus, his entry to the world of 9-ball.

Danny Kuykendal
10-18-2007, 08:46 AM
Thunderball, believe it or not, Efren plays so solid, he could give a few touring pros that spot. I've never been much of a money player, never liked playing for my rent. So I only played him as a lark. I won the first race to 4 easily, playing well, but it became late and I'm usually in bed by 11PM. I still had opportunities to win the second set, but couldn't do it.

By the way, Efren has given very good players (that play on a pro level) incredible spots in nine-ball as well. Like 7,8,9 and the breaks, the 6,7,8,9 but no break spot. He usually wins.

Danny

crosseyedjoe
10-18-2007, 08:50 AM
Efren Reyes
Tiger Woods
Michael Jordan

We live in a great era for sports fans :-)

Wayne Gretzky
Dan Marino/Bret Favre

JoeyInCali
10-18-2007, 08:59 AM
Efren won the US Open in 1994

but...

I believe Efren has been in the finals of the US Open several times...

He lost in the finals to Reed Pierce in 1995 - and to Rodney Morris in 1996 - so Efren made the finals 3 years in a row 94-95-96... WOW ... and I may not be accurately describing that - I don't know who was in the finals in 1997 or 1998.

Nick won the US Open in 1989 & 1990 back to back.

He also won over 16 tournaments in 1989 and 1990 - a streak that actually started at the end of 1988.

Nick has won World titles in 9 ball (1998), 14.1 (1980 and 1986) and he finsihed second a handful of times also.

Earl has won 5 US Opens and I forget how many world 9 ball titles and countless Pro Tour titles.
Efren won in '94.
Then lost the finals in succession to Pierce, Morris then Strickland.
Efren won back to back world 8-ball at the Riviera, lost to Medina two years after the last one.

Thunderball
10-18-2007, 09:00 AM
Thunderball, believe it or not, Efren plays so solid, he could give a few touring pros that spot.

I believe...and fwiw I meant no disrespect.My point was I'd play him for the same reason...just to have done it.

DrCue'sProtege
10-18-2007, 09:06 AM
Efren Reyes
Tiger Woods
Michael Jordan

We live in a great era for sports fans :-)

give Eldrick T. Woods his due, but in their primes i'd still pick Jack Nicklaus head to head.

DCP

DrCue'sProtege
10-18-2007, 09:08 AM
I think it's fair to say that Tiger Woods is the Efren Reyes of golf.

is it fair to say that DCP is the Efren/Tiger of AZBilliards forums? or perhaps its really Travis Trotter and his Cuetec cue?

DCP

crosseyedjoe
10-18-2007, 09:10 AM
is it fair to say that DCP is the Efren/Tiger of AZBilliards forums? or perhaps its really Travis Trotter and his Cuetec cue?

DCP

No because Silver_Wombat had taken that title a long time ago.

JoeyInCali
10-18-2007, 09:10 AM
is it fair to say that DCP is the Efren/Tiger of AZBilliards forums? or perhaps its really Travis Trotter and his Cuetec cue?

DCP
No, more like Mike Tyson of AZB.:D

worriedbeef
10-18-2007, 10:04 AM
efren is an amazing player born to play pool, and from what i have always seen of him, a top bloke too.

the thing that amazes me is not his ability to play pool as such. there are many others who could have been the subject of billy's thread if it was just down to ability. earl, sigel immediately spring to mind and there's many many more. but everybody else has fallen by the wayside one by one, whether to health problems, motivation problems, confidence problems, struggling with the mental game, cant be arsed anymore syndrome, whatever! but efren somehow just keeps doing the business. playing the game, making the balls, winning the tournaments. no messing around. no mental problems of any sort, and doing what a pool player should do, get better with age. because there's no reason why a player should be playing better at 20 than at 50, what with all the experience built up.

his mental game is the thing to behold i think.

rikdee
10-18-2007, 10:08 AM
[QUOTE=Andrew Manning]Billy, I agree with most of your post, and I think the consensus on the forum agrees with most of your post, but surely you're not saying Reyes is a better baulk-line player than Frederic Caudron? The guy's strung together baulk-line world championships the way Mosconi used to string 14.1 world championships, absolutely dominating the game.

I hear from carom players that while Efren is a very good carom billiards player, he's not good enough to compete with the top few players.



My thought exactly, Caudron and no doubt a few other lesser known small game masters. In pockets Efren is all-around best in today's game, but small game billiards, probably not.

_Rick

JoeyA
10-18-2007, 10:41 AM
If they only played games with 15 balls on the table, Efren would dominate to this day.
Be in one-hole, straight-pool, 8-ball or banks.

Hey Joey,
Has your son been watching some Earl Strickland matches? Those are some pretty cool glasses.
JoeyA

crosseyedjoe
10-18-2007, 11:01 AM
Effie's standard appearance fee is 1K. Based on Ted Lerner's article. Effie been paid(cheaper) a long time just to play or appear in any of Angeles City's leagues (Pampanga, Phils.).

Fatboy
10-18-2007, 11:01 AM
I have been reading opinions on who the best was in all the games,and I personally feel that Reyes was clearly the best all around player that ever jointed a cue. Reyes is in the top 3 of 10 ball players,and could be the best. He is the best 8 ball player ever,best rotation player ever,and the best onepocket player ever.That leaves straight pool,and who knows how many balls he would of run if he played 14.1 regularly?? 1,000 maybe,think about it. Jay thinks Ronnie would be a favorite against Reyes playing one hole,but in my opinion Reyes was a solid ball better.I rarely disagree with Jay ,but on this one he's got action.Jay, how can you say that Ronnie was a better shot maker than Reyes,really.Ronnie couldn't give kelly 9 to 8 ,but Reyes can easily give Joyner 10 to 8.Incidentally,Reyes is the best Balk line player in the world too. I think I spelled that right,but in case I didn't that's still my opinion.

The reason I didn't include 9 ball is the break is too much a factor in the outcome, and when you judge who the best is I can't allow the big breaker to cloud the issue.


i agree with with every word.

Terry Ardeno
10-18-2007, 11:15 AM
Great post. I agree with nearly all of it. Best balkline player? I doubt Efren would ever gamble with Fredric Caudron at balkline.

The one pocket topic is always the hardest. In the 1980's, Eddie Taylor said John "Rags" Fitzpatrick was the best ever, but Rags played the conservative grind-it-out style. Many who've seen him say that for that style of play, Rags was the best. Ronnie played a somewhat more aggressive style and most feel that Ronnie was the best at his style of play. Just as Ronnie had, Efren brought the game of one-pocket to the next level. Rags, Ronnie or Efren? Who's the best ever? I think there is a strong case for all three, but I won't argue with your choice of Efren.

In my view, the only player even worthy of consideration with Efren in the all-around category is Nick Varner, and, with due respect to Nick, he just doesn't measure up to the comparison. Efren is the best ever.


Very strong post that I agree with 100%.
Re: the One pocket G.O.A.T., I had 1 Reyes, 2 Allen 3 Fitzpatrick, just as you said.
Re: Best overall, I also had Reyes #1 and Varner 2nd. But my point here is not to piggy-back, it's to say that it was very, very close in some catagories. I came very close to putting DeOro in at #2 and Varner 3 but gave Nick the nod with his WCs won vs tougher fields than DeOro faced.
I also struggled with putting Daulton in at around 9th on the all time best over all list, but I was careful not to let the fact that he's one of my very favorite players cloud my choice.

My comments on Billy's post is that I also agree that Reyes can give Joyner the 10-8 spot but RA couldn't (wouldn't) spot Champagne 9-8.
That very nicely shows that RA vs the best in HIS era was a lot closer than Efren vs the best of HIS era.

There is a much bigger gap between Efren and his rivals than there were between RA and his.
Also I believe there are many more killer one pocket players now than there were 30 years ago. So many more players are playing 1P today than ever before.

Again, these are my very favorite posts, the comparisions of the greats to one another. I appreciate everybody who has posted their opinion.

philw
10-18-2007, 11:17 AM
I have been reading opinions on who the best was in all the games,and I personally feel that Reyes was clearly the best all around player that ever jointed a cue. Reyes is in the top 3 of 10 ball players,and could be the best. He is the best 8 ball player ever,best rotation player ever,and the best onepocket player ever.That leaves straight pool,and who knows how many balls he would of run if he played 14.1 regularly?? 1,000 maybe,think about it. Jay thinks Ronnie would be a favorite against Reyes playing one hole,but in my opinion Reyes was a solid ball better.I rarely disagree with Jay ,but on this one he's got action.Jay, how can you say that Ronnie was a better shot maker than Reyes,really.Ronnie couldn't give kelly 9 to 8 ,but Reyes can easily give Joyner 10 to 8.Incidentally,Reyes is the best Balk line player in the world too. I think I spelled that right,but in case I didn't that's still my opinion.

The reason I didn't include 9 ball is the break is too much a factor in the outcome, and when you judge who the best is I can't allow the big breaker to cloud the issue.
Bill I think you're preaching to the choir. I think people who disagree should please post and state why they disagree. We could then dissect their opinion and let them see the error of their ways. Efren is one of a kind
when I see some of his shot selections in one pocket I just scratch my head and think "who woulda thought of that" and what I think is so very refreshing is that Efren does not have a big ego he is so down to earth.
Bill, do you remember playing Efren at the Chgo Billiard Cafe? mid 80's?
You had the table reclothed in advance and you were getting the eight and the breaks. Efren played almost perfect and couldn't get the cheese.
So I think this admission of Efren's greatness coming from you holds more water. I wish George Fels would read this. He wrote an article about that session in the Billiard Digest. Philw

Stones
10-18-2007, 11:27 AM
I agree with Billy, also. Efren is the best all around player.

I've said this is in early posts as far as Efren's 3 cushion play. In the first Billiard Digest article, "Thrilla from Manilla", Efren was interviewed during the US three cushion championships.

Efren pulled Raymond Cuelemans (sp) in the first round and was leading the match 48-37 in a race to 50. Raymond put a 13 on him to win the match.

After the match, Raymond said he knew he was staring at a future world 3c champion if Efren would concentrate on the game. That quote coming from a man who was 15+ times world champion was a pretty strong statement in my mind.

Stones

Terry Ardeno
10-18-2007, 11:33 AM
I agree with Billy, also. Efren is the best all around player.

I've said this is in early posts as far as Efren's 3 cushion play. In the first Billiard Digest article, "Thrilla from Manilla", Efren was interviewed during the US three cushion championships.

Efren pulled Raymond Cuelemans (sp) in the first round and was leading the match 48-37 in a race to 50. Raymond put a 13 on him to win the match.

After the match, Raymond said he knew he was staring at a future world 3c champion if Efren would concentrate on the game. That quote coming from a man who was 15+ times world champion was a pretty strong statement in my mind.

Stones

I forgot all about that. Good memory and good & relevant point that adds nicely to his already stellar credentials.

frankncali
10-18-2007, 11:51 AM
During a visit to a pool hall I frequent Efren said that he was "MUCH BETTER" in the late 70s than now. He also surprised me and said that another Pinoy played better than him. Cant remember the name but he said he didnt miss.

I cant imagine playing much better than what he does now.

Usually watching how other great player treat a person is an easy tell to how great the person is.

At Hardtimes once Efren was fooling around with Raj Hundel. They were kicking and banking and playing 8ball. I looked around an everytime Efren would shoot the place would stop and watch. Guys playing other matches quit or stopped to watch.
These were not the regulars but Pros. Only one guy didnt seem to be that in awe and that was Tony Drago.

One of my favorite quotes in sports is by George Brett ---
"I've never asked him for an autograph, but I'm going to. Before I quit, I'm going to get him to autograph a baseball for me and autograph a football for me and give me one of his bats. I'm going to save them, and when I finally settle down and have children, when I'm sixty or seventy, and my children ask me what I used to do for a living, I'll tell them, "I played baseball. I played with Bo Jackson."

Some of us will be able to say the same thing about Efren. And they will go Who? lol

CrownCityCorey
10-18-2007, 12:10 PM
I have been reading opinions on who the best was in all the games,and I personally feel that Reyes was clearly the best all around player that ever jointed a cue. Reyes is in the top 3 of 10 ball players,and could be the best. He is the best 8 ball player ever,best rotation player ever,and the best onepocket player ever.That leaves straight pool,and who knows how many balls he would of run if he played 14.1 regularly?? 1,000 maybe,think about it. Jay thinks Ronnie would be a favorite against Reyes playing one hole,but in my opinion Reyes was a solid ball better.I rarely disagree with Jay ,but on this one he's got action.Jay, how can you say that Ronnie was a better shot maker than Reyes,really.Ronnie couldn't give kelly 9 to 8 ,but Reyes can easily give Joyner 10 to 8.Incidentally,Reyes is the best Balk line player in the world too. I think I spelled that right,but in case I didn't that's still my opinion.

The reason I didn't include 9 ball is the break is too much a factor in the outcome, and when you judge who the best is I can't allow the big breaker to cloud the issue.

Let someone put up 50k to 100k for a besting of the straight pool high runs and there would be a new high run record set by Reyes. ;)

History has proven it, put up the dough and Efren will get it.

HollyWood
10-18-2007, 12:25 PM
Who's efrins cuemaker friend o yea Judd Fuller 60 inch I think. Unmatched player in his lifetime. Wish all th efillippino's could understand english better,speak better. How does the phillippino stroke differ from american style level stroke ?

JoeyInCali
10-18-2007, 12:28 PM
I agree with Billy, also. Efren is the best all around player.

I've said this is in early posts as far as Efren's 3 cushion play. In the first Billiard Digest article, "Thrilla from Manilla", Efren was interviewed during the US three cushion championships.

Efren pulled Raymond Cuelemans (sp) in the first round and was leading the match 48-37 in a race to 50. Raymond put a 13 on him to win the match.

After the match, Raymond said he knew he was staring at a future world 3c champion if Efren would concentrate on the game. That quote coming from a man who was 15+ times world champion was a pretty strong statement in my mind.

Stones
Back when Hollywood Billiards Efren played some 3-c at the second floor.
I asked Efren what cue he's going to use as we were going up the stairs. He said he was obligated to use his Meucci pool cue. :eek:
He won $150 on a race to 35.
He said he has not played 3-c since 1979. :eek:
About the same period some Thai guy beat Luat playing straight-rail.
Luat plays pretty strong straight-rail too being a "carambola king" of the Philippines one time.
Efren played the Thai player and beat him out of $500 here in OC.

Terry Ardeno
10-18-2007, 12:30 PM
During a visit to a pool hall I frequent Efren said that he was "MUCH BETTER" in the late 70s than now. He also surprised me and said that another Pinoy played better than him. Cant remember the name but he said he didnt miss.



The name you're looking for is Boy Bicol. He's dead now.

ironman
10-18-2007, 12:30 PM
Just to add to your points, Bill: Efren's abilities were never dimished by the bottle. We'll never know how much more brilliant RA could have been on the natch.

Doc

A valid point.
I doubt Ronnie would have played much better, but he certainly would have played his best much longer.
This is what impresses me concerning Billy. He has given the game up a few times, but has taken care of himself and still plays quite impressively at the age of 63.

I'm just curious Bill, but how would you have played Efren in 1978? Now, don't dodge me! LOL!

catscradle
10-18-2007, 12:38 PM
Just to add to your points, Bill: Efren's abilities were never dimished by the bottle. We'll never know how much more brilliant RA could have been on the natch.

Doc

However, isn't a part of being the "best ever" characther? Being the best ever is not necessarily about the best pure skills (although Efren may just have that too), but having the characther to hone AND maintain those skills.
If it is allowed for diminished skills due to drinking, shouldn't it be allowed for diminished skills due to laziness and lack of practice. Therefore, from that reasoning, the best ever may have been some short stop somewhere who's skills were diminished by laziness. Just a thought.

efirkey
10-18-2007, 12:59 PM
I have been reading opinions on who the best was in all the games,and I personally feel that Reyes was clearly the best all around player that ever jointed a cue. Reyes is in the top 3 of 10 ball players,and could be the best. He is the best 8 ball player ever,best rotation player ever,and the best onepocket player ever.That leaves straight pool,and who knows how many balls he would of run if he played 14.1 regularly?? 1,000 maybe,think about it. Jay thinks Ronnie would be a favorite against Reyes playing one hole,but in my opinion Reyes was a solid ball better.I rarely disagree with Jay ,but on this one he's got action.Jay, how can you say that Ronnie was a better shot maker than Reyes,really.Ronnie couldn't give kelly 9 to 8 ,but Reyes can easily give Joyner 10 to 8.Incidentally,Reyes is the best Balk line player in the world too. I think I spelled that right,but in case I didn't that's still my opinion.

The reason I didn't include 9 ball is the break is too much a factor in the outcome, and when you judge who the best is I can't allow the big breaker to cloud the issue.

I watched Reyes play straight pool in the tournament they had in Maine and he made running 100 look incredibly easy. I believe if he played straight pool regularly he could run over 100 every day of the week and be among the top 3 straight pool players in the world too.

worriedbeef
10-18-2007, 01:01 PM
However, isn't a part of being the "best ever" characther? Being the best ever is not necessarily about the best pure skills (although Efren may just have that too), but having the characther to hone AND maintain those skills.
If it is allowed for diminished skills due to drinking, shouldn't it be allowed for diminished skills due to laziness and lack of practice. Therefore, from that reasoning, the best ever may have been some short stop somewhere who's skills were diminished by laziness. Just a thought.

very good point. this is what i was alluding to in my previous post - it's efren's mental game that is just out of this world.

(woops forgot to quote)

Black-Balled
10-18-2007, 01:22 PM
If I remembered it correctly in one of Effie's interviews, he said he stopped playing carom and balk line because no one wanted to play him anymore. Thus, his entry to the world of 9-ball.

The context was the Phillipines, not the world. 2 completely different "nobody wanted to play him"...

sixpack
10-18-2007, 01:52 PM
A discussion in our pool hall with pool players and golfers, recently took place about Tiger Woods and Efren Reyes and the consensus was that Efren Reyes is the better of the two athletes in their respective fields.

JoeyA

Two reasons I can't agree with this.

1) Tiger Woods won almost 50% of the tournaments he played in this year. This in a sport that pays phenomenally, has 150 pros show up every week that he has to beat, and has millions of hopefuls for a few spots. So IMO he dominates a sport that is much tougher to dominate than pool

2) We're judging the entirety of Efren's career while Woods' career is still very young. So in 10 years as a pro, Tiger has dominated the world of golf to a degree that's just sick by any standard.

On the other hand, the whole world of billiards is broader and so there is more of an interdisciplinary nature to what Efren has done AND pool tournaments are different from golf in the sense that every match is mano y mano. A winner and a loser. For golf to be similar, it might be more accurate to judge Tiger's match play record to Efren's...in which case Tiger is also very strong, winning three professional world match play events in a row and 6 national amateur match play titles in a row. Efren got to the finals at the US Open three years in a row, Tiger won the national amateur match play six (3 junior, 3 adult) times in a row. In the pro ranks he won 3 in a row and 6 of 9 at one point IIRC.

In his career he won 61 tourneys in 230 starts, or just over 25%...and he's only getting better. He finished in the top 3 81 times.

I don't think you can make the case that there has ever been another athlete as good as Tiger Woods in ANY sport.

I think the list of all time sports/game performers in our generation would be:
1. Tiger Woods
2. Efren Reyes
3. Michael Jordan
4. Troy Aikman (sorry, just kidding, I had to throw that out there because of a REALLY STUPID column I read when he retired that put him in the same category as Woods and Jordan.)

Cheers,
RC

frankncali
10-18-2007, 02:01 PM
Two reasons I can't agree with this.

1) Tiger Woods won almost 50% of the tournaments he played in this year. This in a sport that pays phenomenally, has 150 pros show up every week that he has to beat, and has millions of hopefuls for a few spots. So IMO he dominates a sport that is much tougher to dominate than pool
2) We're judging the entirety of Efren's career while Woods' career is still very young. So in 10 years as a pro, Tiger has dominated the world of golf to a degree that's just sick by any standard.

On the other hand, the whole world of billiards is broader and so there is more of an interdisciplinary nature to what Efren has done AND pool tournaments are different from golf in the sense that every match is mano y mano. A winner and a loser. For golf to be similar, it might be more accurate to judge Tiger's match play record to Efren's...in which case Tiger is also very strong, winning three professional world match play events in a row and 6 national amateur match play titles in a row. Efren got to the finals at the US Open three years in a row, Tiger won the national amateur match play six (3 junior, 3 adult) times in a row. In the pro ranks he won 3 in a row and 6 of 9 at one point IIRC.

In his career he won 61 tourneys in 230 starts, or just over 25%...and he's only getting better. He finished in the top 3 81 times.

I don't think you can make the case that there has ever been another athlete as good as Tiger Woods in ANY sport.

I think the list of all time sports/game performers in our generation would be:
1. Tiger Woods
2. Efren Reyes
3. Michael Jordan
4. Troy Aikman (sorry, just kidding, I had to throw that out there because of a REALLY STUPID column I read when he retired that put him in the same category as Woods and Jordan.)

Cheers,
RC

I dont think that golf is much harder to dominate than pool. In golf no matter how good your opponnet plays or how good of bounces he gets you still have a chance to tie him or better him.
In pool Efren can play someone inferior to him and still be sitting in the chair. The match can end and Efren will not have been given a chance to tie.

For this reason i would love to see the Pros play either an Equal Offense game or a race to 10 win by 2 set of playing the ghost.
IMO it would be exciting to see two players alternate chances to break and run out. It could be 9-10-11-12 ball ...any of them. But both players would be given equal chances.

Tiger is playing golf at a great level. the question that will always remain in golf is what Jack, Arnie and the others could have done with todays
equipment.

Fast Lenny
10-18-2007, 03:01 PM
I'm lost on who the hell the other 25% give the vote too.....
Everyone who thinks Minnesota Fats is,i seem to get that alot when talking to league players and people in bars,maybe they are just drunk.

crosseyedjoe
10-18-2007, 03:10 PM
This is BD issue with the Pro Peer Review of players based on different skills.

http://www.billiardsdigest.com/current_issue/apr_07/April07Feature.pdf

crosseyedjoe
10-18-2007, 03:18 PM
The context was the Phillipines, not the world. 2 completely different "nobody wanted to play him"...

Hmm, that is only assuming Filipino carambole and balkline players in the 60's and 70's as sub-par players.

"My best game is 15-ball rotation. After that comes carom (balkline). My weakest game is 9-ball." --Efren Reyes. I wouldn't bet against him even if he has no championship title in balkline.

billychips
10-18-2007, 04:19 PM
Thunderball, believe it or not, Efren plays so solid, he could give a few touring pros that spot. I've never been much of a money player, never liked playing for my rent. So I only played him as a lark. I won the first race to 4 easily, playing well, but it became late and I'm usually in bed by 11PM. I still had opportunities to win the second set, but couldn't do it.

By the way, Efren has given very good players (that play on a pro level) incredible spots in nine-ball as well. Like 7,8,9 and the breaks, the 6,7,8,9 but no break spot. He usually wins.

Danny

There is no way Efren Reyes or any human can give a pro level player the 7, 8 and the breaks. Efren Reyes is the best ever, but not even he can outrun that spot. If he would like to try, I can get a handful of no name pros that will gladly go bust playing that game.

Black-Balled
10-18-2007, 04:27 PM
There is no way Efren Reyes or any human can give a pro level player the 7, 8 and the breaks. Efren Reyes is the best ever, but not even he can outrun that spot. If he would like to try, I can get a handful of no name pros that will gladly go bust playing that game.

I dunno...funnier things have happened by the set for the big bucks!

sixpack
10-18-2007, 04:43 PM
I dont think that golf is much harder to dominate than pool. In golf no matter how good your opponnet plays or how good of bounces he gets you still have a chance to tie him or better him.
In pool Efren can play someone inferior to him and still be sitting in the chair. The match can end and Efren will not have been given a chance to tie.

For this reason i would love to see the Pros play either an Equal Offense game or a race to 10 win by 2 set of playing the ghost.
IMO it would be exciting to see two players alternate chances to break and run out. It could be 9-10-11-12 ball ...any of them. But both players would be given equal chances.

Tiger is playing golf at a great level. the question that will always remain in golf is what Jack, Arnie and the others could have done with todays
equipment.

Yep, good points. The only reason I was saying that golf is harder to dominate is because there are so many more bona fide pros and more people trying to become pros because of the money.

As for Jack and Arnie. They are great players no doubt, and Arnie used to hit the ball 300+ yards back then, with that equipment so he would be a monster with today's equipment.

I have thought about this extensively and studied old tapes and accounts of those players and even though they are great, the only one who compares with Tiger in determination, preparation and mental focus was Ben Hogan.

Hogan didn't hit the ball particularly far, but he was the purest, most consistent ball striker probably ever. With today's equipment leveling the field a little, I think Ben Hogan would have dominated his era even more and would probably provide some legendary battles with Tiger if they were in their prime together.

Another player who got a lot out of his game that would have benefited very much from today's equipment is Lee Trevino. In terms of mindset, he was IMO better than Tiger, but he was outgunned by sheer ability by Jack and some of the others in his day. If Lee Trevino was able to hit the long ball with today's equipment, he might have been higher on the list too. In those days, Lee was hitting it 235-250 off the tee and Jack was hitting it close to 300 sometimes. If they both used today's gear, Jack would have been hitting 300 and Lee would have been hitting 280. Coming in with an 8 to Jack's wedge instead of a 4 to Jack's 8. Huge difference.

Cheers,
RC

JoeyInCali
10-18-2007, 05:13 PM
There is no way Efren Reyes or any human can give a pro level player the 7, 8 and the breaks. Efren Reyes is the best ever, but not even he can outrun that spot. If he would like to try, I can get a handful of no name pros that will gladly go bust playing that game.
Define "pro-level".
Back in the mid 90's , Efren gave Jimmy Wetch the 7 ball and beat him easily.
How good is John Kucharo? Parica gave him the 7-out and the breaks in Vegas. Parical lost but Kucharo's pretty damn good.
Now, there are pros who Kucharo could give the 7-ball too.

jnav447
10-18-2007, 05:29 PM
Any doubt I had about Efren being the best ever were erased at the 2004 DCC, when I lost a C-note on Shannon Daulton in a tournement bank pool match against Efren. Efren played some of the best bank pool I've ever seen. I firmly believe that Efren can master any cue game he chooses to the point of being clearly the best (excluding 9Ball, which, like Billy stated, is almost a breaking contest at the top level). From conversations with a friend who has known Efren for years, it is pretty clear that Efren doesn't have the type of ego to play a particular game (e.g. 14.1) just to be the best at it. His thing is to provide for his extended family in the P.I., play as much chess as he can, and try to keep pool in perspective. Remember the scene in The Hustler where Eddie beats the guy at 3-cushion billiards even though he'd never played before? I can picture Efren doing the same thing to champions in snooker or 3-cushion or banks or whatever. Put enough money on the line and he would learn all the moves pronto. and proceed to outsmart and outplay the other guy. He's a true one-of-a-kind whose level of skills we may never see again.

frankncali
10-18-2007, 05:46 PM
Yep, good points. The only reason I was saying that golf is harder to dominate is because there are so many more bona fide pros and more people trying to become pros because of the money.

As for Jack and Arnie. They are great players no doubt, and Arnie used to hit the ball 300+ yards back then, with that equipment so he would be a monster with today's equipment.

I have thought about this extensively and studied old tapes and accounts of those players and even though they are great, the only one who compares with Tiger in determination, preparation and mental focus was Ben Hogan.

Hogan didn't hit the ball particularly far, but he was the purest, most consistent ball striker probably ever. With today's equipment leveling the field a little, I think Ben Hogan would have dominated his era even more and would probably provide some legendary battles with Tiger if they were in their prime together.

Another player who got a lot out of his game that would have benefited very much from today's equipment is Lee Trevino. In terms of mindset, he was IMO better than Tiger, but he was outgunned by sheer ability by Jack and some of the others in his day. If Lee Trevino was able to hit the long ball with today's equipment, he might have been higher on the list too. In those days, Lee was hitting it 235-250 off the tee and Jack was hitting it close to 300 sometimes. If they both used today's gear, Jack would have been hitting 300 and Lee would have been hitting 280. Coming in with an 8 to Jack's wedge instead of a 4 to Jack's 8. Huge difference.

Cheers,
RC

Trevino was the best shot maker ever IMO. Jack was one of the first to combine power and the high floating accurate shots. Courses were starting to lengthen then.
Another great that has to be included is Byron Nelson. If he could play with todays equipment and have the drive he would be tough on Tiger.

Golf has always been similar to pool that guys dominate it or are on top for brief periods. The ones like Tiger, Jack, Hogan, Palmer are special.
Johnny Miller might have played the best golf ever in 73-74 but Jack raised up and stayed with him. Miller was lights out during that time.

Not being able to match your opponnet or defend against them IMO makes pool the tougher sport. Golf, IMO is the tougher game to play.

Chesscat
10-18-2007, 06:42 PM
Frankie Hernandez may be considered a pro player. Orcullo gave him the six at Masters and beat him.

PoolBum
10-18-2007, 06:57 PM
Not being able to match your opponent or defend against them IMO makes pool the tougher sport. Golf, IMO is the tougher game to play.

I also think that pool is more difficult to dominate than golf for these reasons, and also because if Tiger gets the lowest score he beats everyone else, but with the tournament format in pool you have to beat player after player, match after match, and if just one guy gets hot on you or gets the rolls, you lose. Varner won 8 out of 16 pro tournaments in 1989, the best year anyone has ever had, and as great as he was playing he had to get tremendously lucky a number of times to pull that off.

vagabond
10-18-2007, 07:08 PM
Dang ,nobody challeneged wincardona`s assertions/proclamations.No drama is created, I am not having any fun here and I am going to a different site for the entertainment.

bud green
10-18-2007, 08:08 PM
If they set up a match with Efren against any of the top 3-C guys like Sayginer, Caudron, Sanchez, Blomdahl,etc...I'm betting on the 3-C guys until I'm broke. Caudron at balk line would have to be a heavy favorite also. I don't think people who haven't watched a lot of three cushion realize just how far these guys have taken the game. Averages over two for a whole tournement? Efren would be more than the best ever, he'd be worthy of his own church if he started winning major tourneys at carom games.

Same thing if he went to England and snapped of a snooker tourney at the Crucible...those guys are just too damn good at the game for someone who doesn't play the game regularly to beat.

I might not bet against Efren against any of the top US players at carom games today (Sang Lee would of taken his money, though) but anyone who has seen Blomdahl in top gear can attest that Efren would have to play better than his recent one pocket matches to have a chance in the long run. He beat Blomdahl in a set I think once, but Torbjorn beat Efren at nine ball.

Efren at 14.1 is the most interesting idea to me...he ran 141 on an Accu-Stats tape after just learning the game and it looks like he could of gone on forever if he really wanted to.

sixpack
10-18-2007, 08:19 PM
Trevino was the best shot maker ever IMO. Jack was one of the first to combine power and the high floating accurate shots. Courses were starting to lengthen then.
Another great that has to be included is Byron Nelson. If he could play with todays equipment and have the drive he would be tough on Tiger.

Golf has always been similar to pool that guys dominate it or are on top for brief periods. The ones like Tiger, Jack, Hogan, Palmer are special.
Johnny Miller might have played the best golf ever in 73-74 but Jack raised up and stayed with him. Miller was lights out during that time.

Not being able to match your opponnet or defend against them IMO makes pool the tougher sport. Golf, IMO is the tougher game to play.


Good points all. I agree about Trevino. And yes, Byron Nelson would definitely have to be included. I don't know how I forgot him :)

Cheers,
RC

PoolBum
10-18-2007, 08:31 PM
Dang ,nobody challeneged wincardona`s assertions/proclamations.No drama is created, I am not having any fun here and I am going to a different site for the entertainment.

Yes, but this site is free, and that site is $24.95 a month.

Danny Kuykendal
10-18-2007, 08:54 PM
Efren gave King Kong (Bernardo Chavez) the 7,8 and break an whizzed right through him. Bernardo isn't a top pro but definitely a pro. Efren gave Marshall Jung the 6 out and lost a set maybe, but in Marshall's own words it could have gone either way. Marshall plays better than Bernardo, not by a lot, but has beaten many top pros in tournaments. Reyes will surprise you.

Danny

derekdisco
10-18-2007, 09:03 PM
Reyes is the best, but I have the 92 legends of 1 pocket IV where shannon puts the woop ass on him! Best dvd ever. Its nice to see Efren lose a 1 pocket match every blue moon :)

InTheCloudzzz
10-18-2007, 09:52 PM
Reyes is the best, but I have the 92 legends of 1 pocket IV where shannon puts the woop ass on him! Best dvd ever. Its nice to see Efren lose a 1 pocket match every blue moon :)

While that was a great match, Efren had a couple of shots that were just absolutely crazy. On one of them when he was ahead in the game, even the commentator (maybe Incardona?) mentioned that Efren had to put forth effort just to sell out. It looked as though he took the ONLY shot that could be advantageous for Daulton. Very strange.

Ryan

malm16
10-26-2007, 03:12 PM
I saw this thread too late after a thousand replies, but here goes my opinion anyway :)

Many people fail to realize how great Efren is in this prespective:

Most of Efren's accomplishments are recorded in America (or for the most part, after he made his move to American in '85.) People don't realize that he accomplished far more in the Philippines and Asia prior...and did it for years and years in his country that breeds top caliber players.

Let's not also forget that Efren, when he played Snooker and Carom seriously to play in major tournaments, was also one of the best in the world in both. If he only played Snooker or only played Carom, he'd set records for fastest break or longest run. He won major titles in both. How many other poolplayers has that on their resume?

I think also in this prespective, Efren was one of a kind when he was coming up. He didn't learn to play pool from other Efren-like players the way Americans learned from Mosconi or Buddy Hall. Efren set the tone for the whole world and elevated the level of pool play that makes all players better today--the same way what Michael Jordan did for basketball and Babe Ruth for baseball. Efren just revolutionized the game for the world.

I think any poolplayer alive today should give some praise to have witnessed this rare prize player because he is a gift to us all. The day that Efren departs from us will be the saddest day in Pool/Billiard history.

Having said that, I bet numberous other AZB posters has said all this, so please forgive me for reiterating. I just wanted to contribute my two cents to help Efren rightly claim his position as the greatest player ever.

Peace.

poolcuemaster
10-26-2007, 04:23 PM
In pool you don't have to even get a turn if you lag or flip wrong and there isn't any other game like that, and untill Tiger beats Jack's records for majors he's not the best golfer. On the other hand Efren is the mac-daddy of the pool table followed closely by Earl the Pearl. IMHO

Leonard

JoeyInCali
10-26-2007, 04:31 PM
Most of Efren's accomplishments are recorded in America (or for the most part, after he made his move to American in '85.) People don't realize that he accomplished far more in the Philippines and Asia prior...and did it for years and years in his country that breeds top caliber players.


Efren didn't really accomplish much before he joined the tour here.
All he did was in money matches around the Manila area.
Asian and Philippine titles do not compare to what he accomplished from 1994 and on. 4 US Open final appearances in a row, WPC title, World 8-ball and so on.

shinobi
10-26-2007, 05:26 PM
The day that Efren departs from us will be the saddest day in Pool/Billiard history.

Indeed, I am not looking forward to that day.

crosseyedjoe
10-26-2007, 07:35 PM
Lucky for us US Immigration doesn't accept passports with just "Porkchop" on it.....

LOL, maybe next year we will be taking about how to properly pronounce "Porkchop" in Filipino accent.

Indeed, I am not looking forward to that day.

As long as billiards event is not part of the Olympics, Efren will be playing until kingdom come.

jay helfert
10-26-2007, 07:41 PM
I have been reading opinions on who the best was in all the games,and I personally feel that Reyes was clearly the best all around player that ever jointed a cue. Reyes is in the top 3 of 10 ball players,and could be the best. He is the best 8 ball player ever,best rotation player ever,and the best onepocket player ever.That leaves straight pool,and who knows how many balls he would of run if he played 14.1 regularly?? 1,000 maybe,think about it. Jay thinks Ronnie would be a favorite against Reyes playing one hole,but in my opinion Reyes was a solid ball better.I rarely disagree with Jay ,but on this one he's got action.Jay, how can you say that Ronnie was a better shot maker than Reyes,really.Ronnie couldn't give kelly 9 to 8 ,but Reyes can easily give Joyner 10 to 8.Incidentally,Reyes is the best Balk line player in the world too. I think I spelled that right,but in case I didn't that's still my opinion.

The reason I didn't include 9 ball is the break is too much a factor in the outcome, and when you judge who the best is I can't allow the big breaker to cloud the issue.

Billy, I based my opinion on more than just shot making. Ronnie had a unique ability to "read" the pack, to kick multiple rails with accuracy, to play off angle combinations, to find hidden billiards, to move creatively and most of all Ronnie could handle any bet and any situation. He knew how to take control of a match. And his conversation before, during and after a match was unequaled in pool history.

Efren is a GREAT pool player, but I truly believe the Ronnie of 25-30 years ago would have worn Efren out. He just had too many weapons at his disposal and a gift for gab that would put anyone off their best game. How did you like matching up with, and then playing Ronnie? Not a lot of fun was it? You were one of the smart ones, leaving him alone for the most part. Am I right or wrong?

gopi-1
10-26-2007, 07:44 PM
Billy, I based my opinion on more than just shot making. Ronnie had a unique ability to "read" the pack, to kick multiple rails with accuracy, to play off angle combinations, to find hidden billiards, to move creatively and most of all Ronnie could handle any bet and any situation. He knew how to take control of a match. And his conversation before, during and after a match was unequaled in pool history.



Sounds like Effie to me, except for the conversations... :p

jay helfert
10-26-2007, 08:14 PM
Very strong post that I agree with 100%.
Re: the One pocket G.O.A.T., I had 1 Reyes, 2 Allen 3 Fitzpatrick, just as you said.
Re: Best overall, I also had Reyes #1 and Varner 2nd. But my point here is not to piggy-back, it's to say that it was very, very close in some catagories. I came very close to putting DeOro in at #2 and Varner 3 but gave Nick the nod with his WCs won vs tougher fields than DeOro faced.
I also struggled with putting Daulton in at around 9th on the all time best over all list, but I was careful not to let the fact that he's one of my very favorite players cloud my choice.

My comments on Billy's post is that I also agree that Reyes can give Joyner the 10-8 spot but RA couldn't (wouldn't) spot Champagne 9-8.
That very nicely shows that RA vs the best in HIS era was a lot closer than Efren vs the best of HIS era.

There is a much bigger gap between Efren and his rivals than there were between RA and his.
Also I believe there are many more killer one pocket players now than there were 30 years ago. So many more players are playing 1P today than ever before.

Again, these are my very favorite posts, the comparisions of the greats to one another. I appreciate everybody who has posted their opinion.

Sorry to be so disagreeable guys, but I think Eddie Kelly was a better player than Cliff Joyner. Nothing against Cliff, he has a big game, but Kelly was something to see, the smoothest stroke ever, he looked like poetry in motion when he played. He was so graceful, a true artist at pool, painting portraits on the table as he glided around, with the cue ball as his brush.

Don't ever make the mistake of under rating this guy. He was brilliant at all games, the undisputed All Around champion of the world for a good ten years. NO ONE would play him a match of 9-Ball, One Pocket and 14.1. I'm not just throwing out a name when I say Eddie Kelly. He was a great pool player, in an era with many excellent players.

I love Efren's game, but if he had come over here during Kelly's peak years and tried him an All Around contest, he would have gone down...HARD! I don't doubt that if Efren had applied himself, he could have been an excellent 14.1 player, but he never had to.

One reminder, Kelly came out of a ten year retirement to play in Grady's big One Pocket event in Reno in 1992. There were over 100 players and it was the strongest field ever assembled at that time. All the big guns were there. With a couple weeks of intermittent practice under his belt, Kelly went on the win in an amazing display of One Pocket expertise. The final match with Cornbread should have been preserved on film, it was that good. One of the best matches I ever witnessed, two old veterans playing out their last hurrah!

Cliff was there too, watching in awe as Kelly maneuvered "whitey" in and out of tight quarters, and never hit a bad shot in nine games. He played error free pool against a tough opponent who gave him every opportunity to dog it. In a word, Eddie Kelly, circa 1992, was still SUPERB!

By the way, Ronnie DID give Kelly 9-8 and beat him! I watched it. He couldn't give him 8-7 though, and when they played 9-8, 8-7 they broke even twice that I know of. No one would play Ronnie even back then! Only Kelly and Jersey Red tried him with 9-8 and both lost.

Snoogi
10-26-2007, 08:37 PM
Yeah, in the Philippines Efren is just another guy :-) Even Porkchop beats him.

Lucky for us US Immigration doesn't accept passports with just "Porkchop" on it.....

I think the real reason Efren is the greatest pool player alive and possibly ever is because pretty all the top Pros look up to him and list him as their idol. He doesn't have the WPC record of Johnny and Earl, or the US Open record of Earl. But what Efren has is that magic that makes him seem superhuman.
Same goes for snooker ace Jimmy White, as I recall when I was new some snookies said he hasn't win big enough but he's still the hero..beats the world..

gopi-1
10-26-2007, 09:04 PM
Same goes for snooker ace Jimmy White, as I recall when I was new some snookies said he hasn't win big enough but he's still the hero..beats the world..



Here's Jimmy's rare moments, where he couldn't hold his Ps and Qs! :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHMa3SQ5dnE

wincardona
10-27-2007, 12:16 AM
Billy, I based my opinion on more than just shot making. Ronnie had a unique ability to "read" the pack, to kick multiple rails with accuracy, to play off angle combinations, to find hidden billiards, to move creatively and most of all Ronnie could handle any bet and any situation. He knew how to take control of a match. And his conversation before, during and after a match was unequaled in pool history.

Efren is a GREAT pool player, but I truly believe the Ronnie of 25-30 years ago would have worn Efren out. He just had too many weapons at his disposal and a gift for gab that would put anyone off their best game. How did you like matching up with, and then playing Ronnie? Not a lot of fun was it? You were one of the smart ones, leaving him alone for the most part. Am I right or wrong?
Your absolutely wrong.I matched up with Ronnie many times and won just about every time. I gave him 8 to 6 playing one hole and he shot with one hand I won. He gave me the break playing 6 ball I won easily. I gave him the last 2 and a game on the wire racing to 10 and won three straight times.He gave me 9 to 7 playing one hole and we played maybe 4 or 5 times and it was close.I was around 25 years old when I played him one pocket and wasn't playing anywhere near my best one pocket.But yet Reyes can give Frost 10 to 7 and win now. Now based on that ,what do you think??

wincardona
10-27-2007, 12:28 AM
Sorry to be so disagreeable guys, but I think Eddie Kelly was a better player than Cliff Joyner. Nothing against Cliff, he has a big game, but Kelly was something to see, the smoothest stroke ever, he looked like poetry in motion when he played. He was so graceful, a true artist at pool, painting portraits on the table as he glided around, with the cue ball as his brush.

Don't ever make the mistake of under rating this guy. He was brilliant at all games, the undisputed All Around champion of the world for a good ten years. NO ONE would play him a match of 9-Ball, One Pocket and 14.1. I'm not just throwing out a name when I say Eddie Kelly. He was a great pool player, in an era with many excellent players.

I love Efren's game, but if he had come over here during Kelly's peak years and tried him an All Around contest, he would have gone down...HARD! I don't doubt that if Efren had applied himself, he could have been an excellent 14.1 player, but he never had to.

One reminder, Kelly came out of a ten year retirement to play in Grady's big One Pocket event in Reno in 1992. There were over 100 players and it was the strongest field ever assembled at that time. All the big guns were there. With a couple weeks of intermittent practice under his belt, Kelly went on the win in an amazing display of One Pocket expertise. The final match with Cornbread should have been preserved on film, it was that good. One of the best matches I ever witnessed, two old veterans playing out their last hurrah!

Cliff was there too, watching in awe as Kelly maneuvered "whitey" in and out of tight quarters, and never hit a bad shot in nine games. He played error free pool against a tough opponent who gave him every opportunity to dog it. In a word, Eddie Kelly, circa 1992, was still SUPERB!

By the way, Ronnie did give Kelly 9-8 and beat him! I watched it. He couldn't give him 8-7 though, and when they played 9-8, 8-7 they broke even twice that I know of. No one would play Ronnie even back then! Only Kelly and Jersey Red tried him with 9-8 and both lost.
You are right about Kelly being a better player than Joyner playing one hole,and also right when you said he was the best all around player in the world at that time. But Ronnie lost more than he won giving Kelly 9 to 8. I'm not saying that Ronnie never beat Kelly 9 to 8 ,he did ,but Kelly won more often. Kelly could not beat Reyes playing hole or 9 ball,maybe straight pool ,only because he knew the game much better than Reyes. So if you would substitute straight pool and put bank pool in the all around,Reyes could possibly sweep.

Danny Kuykendal
10-27-2007, 05:22 AM
Willy Mosconi would have challenged Efren in any of the games, had he played them. He considered all games other than straight pool "trick games".

He was extremely competitive and stubborn, but one pool playing s.o.b. As is noted in the recent book "The Hustler and the Champ", Mosconi was in on a joke played by Toots Shor on Jackie Gleason, who was a top amateur player. Mosconi ran 70 right handed and then finished with 30 left handed.

I believe that if he played the other games he might have been as good as Efren, who knows?

JamisonNeu
10-27-2007, 06:07 AM
Just a question. Do any of the top three cushion players play Balkline?

Jamison

I have been reading opinions on who the best was in all the games,and I personally feel that Reyes was clearly the best all around player that ever jointed a cue. Reyes is in the top 3 of 10 ball players,and could be the best. He is the best 8 ball player ever,best rotation player ever,and the best onepocket player ever.That leaves straight pool,and who knows how many balls he would of run if he played 14.1 regularly?? 1,000 maybe,think about it. Jay thinks Ronnie would be a favorite against Reyes playing one hole,but in my opinion Reyes was a solid ball better.I rarely disagree with Jay ,but on this one he's got action.Jay, how can you say that Ronnie was a better shot maker than Reyes,really.Ronnie couldn't give kelly 9 to 8 ,but Reyes can easily give Joyner 10 to 8.Incidentally,Reyes is the best Balk line player in the world too. I think I spelled that right,but in case I didn't that's still my opinion.

The reason I didn't include 9 ball is the break is too much a factor in the outcome, and when you judge who the best is I can't allow the big breaker to cloud the issue.

Terry Ardeno
10-27-2007, 06:29 AM
Sorry to be so disagreeable guys, but I think Eddie Kelly was a better player than Cliff Joyner. Nothing against Cliff, he has a big game, but Kelly was something to see, the smoothest stroke ever, he looked like poetry in motion when he played. He was so graceful, a true artist at pool, painting portraits on the table as he glided around, with the cue ball as his brush.

Don't ever make the mistake of under rating this guy. He was brilliant at all games, the undisputed All Around champion of the world for a good ten years. NO ONE would play him a match of 9-Ball, One Pocket and 14.1. I'm not just throwing out a name when I say Eddie Kelly. He was a great pool player, in an era with many excellent players.

I love Efren's game, but if he had come over here during Kelly's peak years and tried him an All Around contest, he would have gone down...HARD! I don't doubt that if Efren had applied himself, he could have been an excellent 14.1 player, but he never had to.

One reminder, Kelly came out of a ten year retirement to play in Grady's big One Pocket event in Reno in 1992. There were over 100 players and it was the strongest field ever assembled at that time. All the big guns were there. With a couple weeks of intermittent practice under his belt, Kelly went on the win in an amazing display of One Pocket expertise. The final match with Cornbread should have been preserved on film, it was that good. One of the best matches I ever witnessed, two old veterans playing out their last hurrah!

Cliff was there too, watching in awe as Kelly maneuvered "whitey" in and out of tight quarters, and never hit a bad shot in nine games. He played error free pool against a tough opponent who gave him every opportunity to dog it. In a word, Eddie Kelly, circa 1992, was still SUPERB!

By the way, Ronnie DID give Kelly 9-8 and beat him! I watched it. He couldn't give him 8-7 though, and when they played 9-8, 8-7 they broke even twice that I know of. No one would play Ronnie even back then! Only Kelly and Jersey Red tried him with 9-8 and both lost.

Jay,
I would never think that Cliff was a better player than Ed Kelly. Here's a link to my recent "All time" lists...I have Ed Kelly listed as the 5th best over-all / all-around player ever. Cliff is nowhere to be found on that lists....http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=893090#post893090
My point with the comparision to RA was that there is a bigger gap between Efren and HIS rivals than there was between RA and his contemporaries.
I think Cliff MAY be a little stronger than Kelly in pocket, but that's a close call, pretty much "push" for me. 1P is Cliff's specialty and really the only game he excels at. Kelly crushes him in 9 ball and destroys him in 14.1 Ed Kelly was a very exceptional talent in all the games.

jay helfert
10-27-2007, 07:01 AM
Your absolutely wrong.I matched up with Ronnie many times and won just about every time. I gave him 8 to 6 playing one hole and he shot with one hand I won. He gave me the break playing 6 ball I won easily. I gave him the last 2 and a game on the wire racing to 10 and won three straight times.He gave me 9 to 7 playing one hole and we played maybe 4 or 5 times and it was close.I was around 25 years old when I played him one pocket and wasn't playing anywhere near my best one pocket.But yet Reyes can give Frost 10 to 7 and win now. Now based on that ,what do you think??

Somehow I'm not too surprised. I just didn't know how many times you played Ronnie. I did see him give you 9-7 one time, in Vegas I think. I think you broke even that time. If you beat him giving up 8-6 and he played One Handed, you did something there. And giving up the break in 6 Ball was a gaff he taught me.

All I know, is that you had a record like the Globetrotters when it came to gambling for about 20 years. I just never heard of anyone beating you. Oh, except for me and your gaff lines you made at the tournaments. I could usually find one match you handicapped bad. Ha Ha. You pulled me up in Kentucky and said no more action for me. :)

jay helfert
10-27-2007, 07:16 AM
You are right about Kelly being a better player than Joyner playing one hole,and also right when you said he was the best all around player in the world at that time. But Ronnie lost more than he won giving Kelly 9 to 8. I'm not saying that Ronnie never beat Kelly 9 to 8 ,he did ,but Kelly won more often. Kelly could not beat Reyes playing hole or 9 ball,maybe straight pool ,only because he knew the game much better than Reyes. So if you would substitute straight pool and put bank pool in the all around,Reyes could possibly sweep.

I have to disagree here. I think Ronnie got the best of Kelly at 9-8. They both seemed to agree that Kelly couldn't win at that game. At 9-8, 10-8 Kelly could win. I was wrong about 9-8 and 8-7. I don't think Ronnie ever played Kelly that way.

I wouldn't make Kelly a big dog against Efren at One Pocket. A small dog yes. And at 9-Ball, it would have been close as well. At 14.1 Kelly would have to be the favorite. So it is probably a closer match up then I stated. You win that bet too. So you're 2-1 against me on the net, but as long as you keep betting against Shane I'll be all right "live". I really did think his match with Alcano was a toss up in the Finals, but once Shane beats a guy, he is always confident he can do it again.

Fatboy always talks to me before he makes a bet, and his last line is "Who would you bet on if you were forced to bet"? I told him that it wouldn't always be so easy to win with you, and he better be prepared to lose a few too. He appreciates the action though and is anxious to match up with you himself. "Caveat Emptor" is all I have to say about that.

1pocket
10-27-2007, 07:33 AM
Willy Mosconi would have challenged Efren in any of the games, had he played them. He considered all games other than straight pool "trick games".

He was extremely competitive and stubborn, but one pool playing s.o.b. As is noted in the recent book "The Hustler and the Champ", Mosconi was in on a joke played by Toots Shor on Jackie Gleason, who was a top amateur player. Mosconi ran 70 right handed and then finished with 30 left handed.

I believe that if he played the other games he might have been as good as Efren, who knows?Aside form the fact that Efren has been one of the dominant champions at everything from One Pocket to 9-Ball to Balkline billiards, and Mosconi only dominated one discipline of the game, you have Mosconi's narrow mindedness toward pool itself. Mosconi not only thoroughly disdained everything about the whole action side of the game, he apparently even disliked the game itself, and was in it for only two reasons: money first and his competitive spirit second.

Efren, on the other hand, is obviously fond of both sides of pool's culture (tournaments & action), and is deservedly revered by fans from both camps. Now mix that with his lovable humility... you don't just have a champion, you have a very rare presence.

Mike Haines
10-27-2007, 07:49 AM
I attended the one-pocket tournament in Dallas and had a chance to talk to Cliff Joyner about Efren. Now Cliff is no slouch when it comes to one pocket. I asked him about his opinion of Efren's one pocket game. He looked at me and smiled and just shook his head. He did not want to talk about that topic. Efren has to be the greatest all around players that has ever lived. Probably, if he had gotten emersed in straight pool and had won some world class tournaments, there would be no need to even reply to your post. Because no one would disagree.

Danny Kuykendal
10-27-2007, 10:46 PM
Can't argue with Efren's presence at the table versus Mosconi's. Enough can't be said about his attitude and "art" at the table.

However, even watching Willie play 30 years ago against Fats in nine ball when he was 65 and retired, he had terrific cue ball control and shot making ability.

All you can say now, though is that Willie would have won in straight pool, and because of his lack of knowledge of other games, especially one pocket Efren would have to have an edge.

Danny

Danny Kuykendal
10-27-2007, 10:51 PM
Have to agree with Billy regarding Efren. It's even noted in the new book "The Hustler and the Champ" that Ronnie and Kelly both were busted playing Fats giving up 9-7.

Efren could probably give Fats, what 10-6 and the break? I would sure have bet on Efren in that game.

Danny

chilli66
10-27-2007, 11:22 PM
Same goes for snooker ace Jimmy White, as I recall when I was new some snookies said he hasn't win big enough but he's still the hero..beats the world..

I know it's an often used phrase but he really was the best player never to win the World Championship. He had his chances (6 finals IIRC) but never pulled it off. Shame, he had so much natural talent but not enough bottle.

JamisonNeu
10-28-2007, 12:55 AM
I just can't believe that you all think that Willie Mosconi couldn't play nine ball or one hole. Really, the game of straight pool on a ten footer with 3.75" pockets is at least 50 times harder than nine ball on a nine footer. Not to mention Willie Mosconi used to shoot up towards 90% of his runs in the bottom corners. This for me negates the possibility that his one pocket skills were lacking.

Quick story about Willie Mosconi before he ever won any of his championships and Ponzy ruled the world.
So this guy walks up to Ponzy and says I would like to play some nine ball for $1,000 (modern cash worth $12,064 and 33 cents) a game. Remember this is in the late 20's early 30's when the game (9 balls) was first starting to be played. So ponzy says I'm eating how about you play this kid here. Not everyone knew Willie Mosconi at the time. The stranger says sure and they lag (on a ten footer with little pockets) Willie wins the lag and breaks 11 games in a row. Stops shooting and tells the guy look you need to stop Sir. I will never miss at an easy game like nine ball. The guy says but, you have not seen me shoot yet. The whole room laughs at him as Ponzy says and we never will if you keep trying that kid in such an easy game. Willie did not finish well in that tourney. He wasn't good enough yet:eek:

Now, just a observation in life. Everything is easier now, not just in pool but shopping, travel, football, basketball, golf, and everthing else I can think of. This list will never end will it? You should get my point.
Jamison

I don't remember who said it as rude as it was. (I would like to forget.) That Willie Mosconi only played for cash and his competitive nature. Did you ever see footage of him playing in his early years? Before he had been subject to know it all pool players. He could give 200 no count left handed from the grave to most modern players. He knew nothing else from a little boy on remember his first exhibition was before he was 10. Efren's lucky he can't speak english very well. I wonder how many times he could say sniper tips and 19 oz before he went postal.

I just can't believe this is where we are now.

Did you know when Willie Mosconi retired the first time. He held every single record in pocket billiards?

See pocket billiards is recorded real funny. There was a player named De' Ore in the late 1800's early 1900's that held a world championship title in one cue sport or another for something like 50 years straight. They erased him and replaced him much like you all are trying to do for Efren Reyes.

They are both great talents not to be compared. You can not forget the past to make way for the future. Efren's probably the best cue sportsmen alive from what I have read about him. To say greatest ever is making a mockery of our sport. How about just saying of anyone alive playing cue sports he has the greatest record for win vs. losses. Is this true???

I think the Mr. Mosconi you saw was bitter because he saw the future of pool and he knew that being popular and had very little to do with sports.

How about Mr. 100? He doesn't even rate in your greatest players of all time.
Jamison

gopi-1
10-28-2007, 01:33 AM
We are living in an age where access on everything is easy. We are "global"
now so to speak, that's why we see champions from all corners of the earth
competing. I can't say the same back in the Roaring 20's. It seems that
everything evolves around the US back then, didn't pay much attention to
the other nations.

Willie Mosconi was a great player, but saying Efren couldn't hold a candle is
pretty much hogwash, and vice-versa. These mythical match-ups will only
happen in our dreams, or maybe PS 2, X-Box or even Wii.

Let's just enjoy these great players' accomplishments and be thankful that
we get to witness their greatness in our lifetime, that is if you're old enough
to see the great Mosconi play...

chilli66
10-28-2007, 01:52 AM
We are living in an age where access on everything is easy. We are "global"
now so to speak, that's why we see champions from all corners of the earth
competing. I can't say the same back in the Roaring 20's. It seems that
everything evolves around the US back then, didn't pay much attention to
the other nations.

Willie Mosconi was a great player, but saying Efren couldn't hold a candle is
pretty much hogwash, and vice-versa. These mythical match-ups will only
happen in our dreams, or maybe PS 2, X-Box or even Wii.

Let's just enjoy these great players' accomplishments and be thankful that
we get to witness their greatness in our lifetime, that is if you're old enough
to see the great Mosconi play...

Well said. These discussions happen in all sports & we'll never be able to know how it could've turned out. That's the beauty of it, and the curse. We are fortunate to witness greatness, our imaginations & wishes keep us wondering "what if?"

JamisonNeu
10-28-2007, 07:35 AM
We are living in an age where access on everything is easy. We are "global"
now so to speak, that's why we see champions from all corners of the earth
competing. I can't say the same back in the Roaring 20's. It seems that
everything evolves around the US back then, didn't pay much attention to
the other nations.

Willie Mosconi was a great player, but saying Efren couldn't hold a candle is
pretty much hogwash, and vice-versa. These mythical match-ups will only
happen in our dreams, or maybe PS 2, X-Box or even Wii.

Let's just enjoy these great players' accomplishments and be thankful that
we get to witness their greatness in our lifetime, that is if you're old enough
to see the great Mosconi play...



I will give you this there was not as many players in that era, Thing is I don't see how this makes any difference in a solitary sport such as pocket billiards it's mostly about making balls in a hole. Well at least that is how they used to play before defense took over. Much easier than making the ball just bump it to a rail.

Efren is the greatest player playing today!!! Does this work? I hope you didn't think I meant he had no chance. I have only watched him kick balls I have never watched Efren play a whole match. I fast foward to the times when he is hooked he constantly kicks safe or kicks out. It is amazing to say the least.

Jamison

philw
10-28-2007, 10:18 AM
I just can't believe that you all think that Willie Mosconi couldn't play nine ball or one hole. Really, the game of straight pool on a ten footer with 3.75" pockets is at least 50 times harder than nine ball on a nine footer. Not to mention Willie Mosconi used to shoot up towards 90% of his runs in the bottom corners. This for me negates the possibility that his one pocket skills were lacking.

Quick story about Willie Mosconi before he ever won any of his championships and Ponzy ruled the world.
So this guy walks up to Ponzy and says I would like to play some nine ball for $1,000 (modern cash worth $12,064 and 33 cents) a game. Remember this is in the late 20's early 30's when the game (9 balls) was first starting to be played. So ponzy says I'm eating how about you play this kid here. Not everyone knew Willie Mosconi at the time. The stranger says sure and they lag (on a ten footer with little pockets) Willie wins the lag and breaks 11 games in a row. Stops shooting and tells the guy look you need to stop Sir. I will never miss at an easy game like nine ball. The guy says but, you have not seen me shoot yet. The whole room laughs at him as Ponzy says and we never will if you keep trying that kid in such an easy game. Willie did not finish well in that tourney. He wasn't good enough yet:eek:

Now, just a observation in life. Everything is easier now, not just in pool but shopping, travel, football, basketball, golf, and everthing else I can think of. This list will never end will it? You should get my point.
Jamison

I don't remember who said it as rude as it was. (I would like to forget.) That Willie Mosconi only played for cash and his competitive nature. Did you ever see footage of him playing in his early years? Before he had been subject to know it all pool players. He could give 200 no count left handed from the grave to most modern players. He knew nothing else from a little boy on remember his first exhibition was before he was 10. Efren's lucky he can't speak english very well. I wonder how many times he could say sniper tips and 19 oz before he went postal.

I just can't believe this is where we are now.

Did you know when Willie Mosconi retired the first time. He held every single record in pocket billiards?

See pocket billiards is recorded real funny. There was a player named De' Ore in the late 1800's early 1900's that held a world championship title in one cue sport or another for something like 50 years straight. They erased him and replaced him much like you all are trying to do for Efren Reyes.

They are both great talents not to be compared. You can not forget the past to make way for the future. Efren's probably the best cue sportsmen alive from what I have read about him. To say greatest ever is making a mockery of our sport. How about just saying of anyone alive playing cue sports he has the greatest record for win vs. losses. Is this true???

I think the Mr. Mosconi you saw was bitter because he saw the future of pool and he knew that being popular and had very little to do with sports.

How about Mr. 100? He doesn't even rate in your greatest players of all time.
Jamison
You bring up some very good points and it's so very difficult to compare players from different eras.
People have always tried to compare or determine how Ali would have fared with Tyson in boxing or Ali and Marciano it makes for good debate but unfortunately we will never know so I think the closest we could come is to take commentary from people who were fortunate enough to be alive when both were competing that's why I think we should accept the words of our older players such as Incardona, Freddy, Grady etc. The great debate will never end and we should never rewrite history. Philw

Terry Ardeno
10-28-2007, 10:26 AM
I just can't believe that you all think that Willie Mosconi couldn't play nine ball or one hole. Really, the game of straight pool on a ten footer with 3.75" pockets is at least 50 times harder than nine ball on a nine footer. Not to mention Willie Mosconi used to shoot up towards 90% of his runs in the bottom corners. This for me negates the possibility that his one pocket skills were lacking.

Quick story about Willie Mosconi before he ever won any of his championships and Ponzy ruled the world.
So this guy walks up to Ponzy and says I would like to play some nine ball for $1,000 (modern cash worth $12,064 and 33 cents) a game. Remember this is in the late 20's early 30's when the game (9 balls) was first starting to be played. So ponzy says I'm eating how about you play this kid here. Not everyone knew Willie Mosconi at the time. The stranger says sure and they lag (on a ten footer with little pockets) Willie wins the lag and breaks 11 games in a row. Stops shooting and tells the guy look you need to stop Sir. I will never miss at an easy game like nine ball. The guy says but, you have not seen me shoot yet. The whole room laughs at him as Ponzy says and we never will if you keep trying that kid in such an easy game. Willie did not finish well in that tourney. He wasn't good enough yet:eek:

Now, just a observation in life. Everything is easier now, not just in pool but shopping, travel, football, basketball, golf, and everthing else I can think of. This list will never end will it? You should get my point.
Jamison

I don't remember who said it as rude as it was. (I would like to forget.) That Willie Mosconi only played for cash and his competitive nature. Did you ever see footage of him playing in his early years? Before he had been subject to know it all pool players. He could give 200 no count left handed from the grave to most modern players. He knew nothing else from a little boy on remember his first exhibition was before he was 10. Efren's lucky he can't speak english very well. I wonder how many times he could say sniper tips and 19 oz before he went postal.

I just can't believe this is where we are now.

Did you know when Willie Mosconi retired the first time. He held every single record in pocket billiards?

See pocket billiards is recorded real funny. There was a player named De' Ore in the late 1800's early 1900's that held a world championship title in one cue sport or another for something like 50 years straight. They erased him and replaced him much like you all are trying to do for Efren Reyes.

They are both great talents not to be compared. You can not forget the past to make way for the future. Efren's probably the best cue sportsmen alive from what I have read about him. To say greatest ever is making a mockery of our sport. How about just saying of anyone alive playing cue sports he has the greatest record for win vs. losses. Is this true???

I think the Mr. Mosconi you saw was bitter because he saw the future of pool and he knew that being popular and had very little to do with sports.

How about Mr. 100? He doesn't even rate in your greatest players of all time.
Jamison

Jamison,
That was a pretty interesting post. Good story on Ponzi and Mosconi as well.
For the record though, Frank Taberski holds several records that Mosconi does not, and with regards to Alfredo DeOro, I'm not sure what you mean by they erased him. He is still highly regarded by most pool historians.

JamisonNeu
10-28-2007, 10:05 PM
When did Taberski play? Where? Which records are you talking about? I am almost positive that the year Mosconi first retired he held every record. I think the year was 1947 I could be wrong maybe it was when he was 47. How do I find a video of Frank Taberski playing?
Jamison

Jamison,
That was a pretty interesting post. Good story on Ponzi and Mosconi as well.
For the record though, Frank Taberski holds several records that Mosconi does not, and with regards to Alfredo DeOro, I'm not sure what you mean by they erased him. He is still highly regarded by most pool historians.

wincardona
10-28-2007, 10:10 PM
I have to disagree here. I think Ronnie got the best of Kelly at 9-8. They both seemed to agree that Kelly couldn't win at that game. At 9-8, 10-8 Kelly could win. I was wrong about 9-8 and 8-7. I don't think Ronnie ever played Kelly that way.

I wouldn't make Kelly a big dog against Efren at One Pocket. A small dog yes. And at 9-Ball, it would have been close as well. At 14.1 Kelly would have to be the favorite. So it is probably a closer match up then I stated. You win that bet too. So you're 2-1 against me on the net, but as long as you keep betting against Shane I'll be all right "live". I really did think his match with Alcano was a toss up in the Finals, but once Shane beats a guy, he is always confident he can do it again.

Fatboy always talks to me before he makes a bet, and his last line is "Who would you bet on if you were forced to bet"? I told him that it wouldn't always be so easy to win with you, and he better be prepared to lose a few too. He appreciates the action though and is anxious to match up with you himself. "Caveat Emptor" is all I have to say about that.

Jay, I believe Efren could give 8 to 7 to any player that ever played one pocket and win. All the great one pocket players,and we know who they WERE would need 10 to 8 for it to be a tough gamble. I know that there is no way that we will ever find out if thats true,but based on how easily he beat Joyner 8 to 7 one has to wonder how much weight Joyner really needed.I really believe Reyes can give Joyner 9/7,10/7 for it to be a tight fit.

rossaroni
10-29-2007, 01:06 AM
Well said. These discussions happen in all sports & we'll never be able to know how it could've turned out.

I agree. I think many people don't look at how the person dominated in their time. You may hear things like, "the pitchers throw harder today," "the fields are bigger now", etc.. If you look at some of the records before Babe Ruth, it is unbelievable how he shattered the records. Before he hit 29 homers, the previous record was 27. When he hit 54 homers in 1920, the person in second place hit 19!:eek: I have heard people say that Ruth would not be great today. I have even heard people say that he wouldn't even be able to play in the majors today. :confused: In my mind, Ruth is the greatest. I know some may disagree, but I know one thing for sure- he is a better pitcher then any of today's power hitters!
Back to pool. Mosconi dominated for a long time, and so did Greenleaf. Of course there were other players who could win, but people knew who was the best. It is really ashame that straight pool was, for the most part, the only game that these players competed in. I believe that Efren has to be considered the greatest player ever, because his play is all games is superb. Mostly playing one game really does hurt Mosconi's or Greenleaf's bid for greatest, but is it their fault? I do know one thing- these two would not have had problem competing with today's players. It may be more difficult today(it also may be easier with the superior equipment and knowledge), but their will to win would make Mosconi and Greenleaf both threats today. It is fun debating things like this, but we all know it is a matter of opinion and there is no right or wrong answer.

asbani
10-29-2007, 01:35 AM
efren is a great player he have good things & bad things, I don't consider him the best player in the world tho he is, best rain kick shot. best one pocket. best rail safety shots. best 3 cushion player.

but he is not the best 9ball or 10ball player, not the best 8ball player, not the best 14.1 straight pool player. that been said I think he also too lucky sometimes in shots :P and he struggle a bit in the draw stroke (In my point of view)

thats totally my opinion some people my disaggree, cheers to all :D

-asbani!

rossaroni
10-29-2007, 02:12 AM
efren is a great player he have good things & bad things, I don't consider him the best player in the world tho he is, best rain kick shot. best one pocket. best rail safety shots. best 3 cushion player.

but he is not the best 9ball or 10ball player, not the best 8ball player, not the best 14.1 straight pool player. that been said I think he also too lucky sometimes in shots :P and he struggle a bit in the draw stroke (In my point of view)

thats totally my opinion some people my disaggree, cheers to all :D

-asbani!

Even Efren said that when he is playing good, nobody can beat him playing eight ball. This is coming from someone who always says he is lucky and seems to be very modest. I don't know about the bar box, but on the big table, Efren probably is the best to ever play eight ball. He is also one of the best 9 and 10 ball players ever. I think you left out rotation- I heard he doesn't play this too bad either! ;) Once he learns to draw the ball, he may be unstoppable! :D

SCCues
10-29-2007, 06:25 AM
He can play a little 9-ball too.

Speaking of Efren's break in 9 ball.

He played one of the best breakers in 9 ball (Earl Strickland) a race to 120 in Hong Kong and he beat Earl for $100,000 winner take all. I have that match and Efren's break looked good to me. I also have many Accu-stats matches with Efren playing 9 ball and i've always thought his break was good. He may not have the most powerful 9 ball break, but I would say it's a very good 9 ball break and when you combine that with his other skills he has to be one of the best 9 ball players.

crosseyedjoe
10-29-2007, 07:04 AM
Speaking of Efren's break in 9 ball.

He played one of the best breakers in 9 ball (Earl Strickland) a race to 120 in Hong Kong and he beat Earl for $100,000 winner take all. I have that match and Efren's break looked good to me. I also have many Accu-stats matches with Efren playing 9 ball and i've always thought his break was good. He may not have the most powerful 9 ball break, but I would say it's a very good 9 ball break and when you combine that with his other skills he has to be one of the best 9 ball players.

I think, it was like 21 break and run's in the final stretch.

Terry Ardeno
10-29-2007, 07:37 AM
When did Taberski play? Where? Which records are you talking about? I am almost positive that the year Mosconi first retired he held every record. I think the year was 1947 I could be wrong maybe it was when he was 47. How do I find a video of Frank Taberski playing?
Jamison

Jamison,
Thanks for the questions on Taberski. He's one of the greatest pocket billiards champions of all time, but, because his peak was in the early 1900's, (1916-1929 reign), he is largely overlooked or even forgotten.

Some of his unique accomplishments are he was / is the first champion to dfend his title 10 times without losing it, he won 20 challenge matches in a row, he won 33 games in a row in championship play, he won 307 (!) consecutive 100 ball exhibition matches and was purported to have ran 42 banks in a row.

He died in 1941 at the age of 52. There is some video of him. I have one of him running a rack of 15 balls using two sticks as a guide. He picks up the cue ball with the sticks close together, lets the cue ball roll up towards the butt and then aims by letting the cue bll roll back down the 2 cues, pocketing the balls. He ran a whole rack that way!

He was a great player, but he ws also very slow in his play. He makes Danny Basavich look like Luc Salvas with the slowness of how he played. I read where he would routinely take up to 10 minutes to properly line up a shot. He played with a very detatched and deliberate style. He was, in my opinion, the 3rd best 14.1 player ever, behind Mosconi and Greenleaf.

CebuanoNiNoy
10-29-2007, 07:50 AM
Meanwhile let's ask Efren.
Virtually from the horse's mouth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY5Ja92IA40

"(There are) a lot of players. I am not the best."
- Efren Reyes

Williebetmore
10-29-2007, 07:57 AM
Meanwhile let's ask Efren.
Virtually from the horse's mouth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY5Ja92IA40

"(There are) a lot of players. I am not the best."
- Efren Reyes

Efren,
While there may be some disagreements in this thread, I'm hopeful that we can ALL agree that Efren must be THE LUCKIEST PLAYER OF ALL TIME (since no one could actually be that good).

CebuanoNiNoy
10-29-2007, 07:59 AM
Efren,
While there may be some disagreements in this thread, I'm hopeful that we can ALL agree that Efren must be THE LUCKIEST PLAYER OF ALL TIME (since no one could actually be that good).

Check for that one. :D

JoeyInCali
10-29-2007, 08:24 AM
Efren,
While there may be some disagreements in this thread, I'm hopeful that we can ALL agree that Efren must be THE LUCKIEST PLAYER OF ALL TIME (since no one could actually be that good).
Nobody has less teeth either.
I saw Efren is the best rotation and one-hole player of all time.
MIght be the best coin flipper too.:D

Terry Ardeno
10-29-2007, 08:54 AM
Nobody has less teeth either.
I saw Efren is the best rotation and one-hole player of all time.
MIght be the best coin flipper too.:D

Joey,
I agree with you on the teeth. Nobody can have less than zero. Also, that Reyes is the best at rotation and 1 pocket, ever.

Coin flipper? I didn't know that was another of his talents.
He's a guy who seems very hard not to like. Remember the old thread about the "bad" Efren? :)

Andrew Manning
10-29-2007, 09:07 AM
Remember the old thread about the "bad" Efren? :)

I'm still bitter about that time he kicked my dog.

-Andrew

crosseyedjoe
10-29-2007, 09:16 AM
I'm still bitter about that time he kicked my dog.

-Andrew

Good thing he just kicked it, "azucena" would have been worse. :D

iralee
10-29-2007, 09:48 AM
...Incidentally,Reyes is the best Balk line player in the world too. I think I spelled that right,but in case I didn't that's still my opinion.


Reyes is a great pool player, without a doubt. But, you are quite wrong about Efren being the best balkline player in the world - and wrong on the spelling, too (no space). Efren couldn't hold a candle up to Frederic Caudron - he's not even in the same league.

However, I believe it would be very safe to say that Reyes is the best balkline player out of all the professional pool players. I've often heard it referenced - how incredible and how quickly Efren learned how to play one-pocket well. Based on my observation, I think the control he displays (especially while playing one-pocket) came from years of carom/balkline training - where balancing cue-ball/object-ball speed to the millimeter are keys.

-Ira

fanthom
10-29-2007, 10:23 AM
I have been reading opinions on who the best was in all the games,and I personally feel that Reyes was clearly the best all around player that ever jointed a cue. Reyes is in the top 3 of 10 ball players,and could be the best. He is the best 8 ball player ever,best rotation player ever,and the best onepocket player ever.That leaves straight pool,and who knows how many balls he would of run if he played 14.1 regularly?? 1,000 maybe,think about it. Jay thinks Ronnie would be a favorite against Reyes playing one hole,but in my opinion Reyes was a solid ball better.I rarely disagree with Jay ,but on this one he's got action.Jay, how can you say that Ronnie was a better shot maker than Reyes,really.Ronnie couldn't give kelly 9 to 8 ,but Reyes can easily give Joyner 10 to 8.Incidentally,Reyes is the best Balk line player in the world too. I think I spelled that right,but in case I didn't that's still my opinion.

The reason I didn't include 9 ball is the break is too much a factor in the outcome, and when you judge who the best is I can't allow the big breaker to cloud the issue.

. . . and we're seeing the old Efren now. His best game was from about early 1970's to 1979, when he then stopped for about 6 years because nobody wanted to play him without getting the nuts. That's when he followed Parica under the pseudoname Cesar Morales. Back then the game gambled on was rotation. Backers and birdrails alike would bet on run-outs before the break and 'chalk-marked' cue ball stops after each shot for big bucks. It was gambling on top of gambling and boy did it go on for days. It was pool-fest central. The 50+ yr. old Efren now can be spotted by the 1970's Efren a ball or two in 1-hole, the 8 on 9B and +10 on rotation. :o

JoeyInCali
10-29-2007, 10:50 AM
. . . and we're seeing the old Efren now. His best game was from about early 1970's to 1979, when he then stopped for about 6 years because nobody wanted to play him without getting the nuts. That's when he followed Parica under the pseudoname Cesar Morales. Back then the game gambled on was rotation. Backers and birdrails alike would bet on run-outs before the break and 'chalk-marked' cue ball stops after each shot for big bucks. It was gambling on top of gambling and boy did it go on for days. It was pool-fest central. The 50+ yr. old Efren now can be spotted by the 1970's Efren a ball or two in 1-hole, the 8 on 9B and +10 on rotation. :o
THe 1970's Efren did not know to play one hole. Efren reached his one-pocket greatness when he beat Grady at Hard Times for some serious cash.

iralee
10-29-2007, 11:48 AM
Just a question. Do any of the top three cushion players play Balkline?

Jamison

Almost all of them did (or still do) at a very high level. There are a couple of exceptions, but most all of them play "small" carom games extremely well according to normal standards. In all of the carom playing countries in the world, straight-rail (free-game), 1-cushion and the various balkline games (47.1, 47.2, 71.2) are the first cue-games learned before moving on to 3-cushion.

-Ira

Jaden
10-29-2007, 11:40 PM
Thunderball, believe it or not, Efren plays so solid, he could give a few touring pros that spot. I've never been much of a money player, never liked playing for my rent. So I only played him as a lark. I won the first race to 4 easily, playing well, but it became late and I'm usually in bed by 11PM. I still had opportunities to win the second set, but couldn't do it.

By the way, Efren has given very good players (that play on a pro level) incredible spots in nine-ball as well. Like 7,8,9 and the breaks, the 6,7,8,9 but no break spot. He usually wins.

Danny

Hey Danny, did he give one of those spots playing Ramin?

cuetechasaurus
10-30-2007, 03:40 AM
Reyes is a great pool player, without a doubt. But, you are quite wrong about Efren being the best balkline player in the world - and wrong on the spelling, too (no space). Efren couldn't hold a candle up to Frederic Caudron - he's not even in the same league.

However, I believe it would be very safe to say that Reyes is the best balkline player out of all the professional pool players. I've often heard it referenced - how incredible and how quickly Efren learned how to play one-pocket well. Based on my observation, I think the control he displays (especially while playing one-pocket) came from years of carom/balkline training - where balancing cue-ball/object-ball speed to the millimeter are keys.

-Ira

Ira have you seen Efren play balkline, and if you have, what level would you say he plays at? Has he competed against the other top players? Just curious.

fanthom
10-30-2007, 12:09 PM
During a visit to a pool hall I frequent Efren said that he was "MUCH BETTER" in the late 70s than now. He also surprised me and said that another Pinoy played better than him. Cant remember the name but he said he didnt miss.

Must be 'Bicol Bata' (Bicol Kid, pronounced as 'Be Cool Kid'). My uncle made wads-o-cash back in the 70's betting on the guy. Back then they played rotation and this guy and his backers will bet on top of bets usually 'run-out' from the break and cue-ball stops on chalk marks after every shot.

I was told that when Bicol Bata was in the house, Efren and Parica stayed clear. It's unfortunate that him and his possey wandered into a Phil. 'Dodge City", cleaned everybody out, mysteriously disappeared only to be found in a rice paddy weeks later with his hands cut-off along with the possey. Had he lived and played in today's pool, ESPN will be airing matches at primetime.

JoeyInCali
10-30-2007, 12:45 PM
Must be 'Bicol Bata' (Bicol Kid, pronounced as 'Be Cool Kid'). My uncle made wads-o-cash back in the 70's betting on the guy. Back then they played rotation and this guy and his backers will bet on top of bets usually 'run-out' from the break and cue-ball stops on chalk marks after every shot.

I was told that when Bicol Bata was in the house, Efren and Parica stayed clear. It's unfortunate that him and his possey wandered into a Phil. 'Dodge City", cleaned everybody out, mysteriously disappeared only to be found in a rice paddy weeks later with his hands cut-off along with the possey. Had he lived and played in today's pool, ESPN will be airing matches at primetime.
Boy Bicol.
That's not exactly the story I heard on Boy getting hacked.

JayBates
10-30-2007, 12:55 PM
Efren Reyes
Tiger Woods
Michael Jordan

We live in a great era for sports fans :-)

Efren Reyes
Tiger Woods
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Tom Brady
Payton Manning