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View Full Version : 1970s-1980s Keith McCready vs SVB


Somehustler
10-18-2007, 11:26 PM
How would you match up Keith McCready in his prime against SVB now? Based on stories my father told me about back in the day, Keith almost never missed when he was playing well and basically torched everyone. Could one give the other any weight on a bar box or full sized table?

hemicudas
10-19-2007, 03:24 AM
How would you match up Keith McCready in his prime against SVB now? Based on stories my father told me about back in the day, Keith almost never missed when he was playing well and basically torched everyone. Could one give the other any weight on a bar box or full sized table?

No weight involved I would have Keith the favorite on the bar box and SVB on the 9'er.

Blackjack
10-19-2007, 03:28 AM
I agree with Hemicudas. I'd have bet on Keith no matter what they played on. He was just TOO STRONG back in the day.

Danny Kuykendal
10-19-2007, 05:23 AM
Keith's extra-curricular (SP?) activities would sometimes cause some inconsistancies. Keith would make spectacular shots, like bank the cue ball into a ball in the center of the table and make it. He played close to St. Louis Louis speed, usually winning but on occasion losing. He definitely would play anyone who rolled through southern California and wanted to play.
He did go to Shreveport in the late seventies and lost to Buddy getting the wild or call 7 (depends on whether you ask Buddy or Keith), but that was on Buddy's home turf and table that was set up for him. Brian Hashimoto staked Keith.
He was sure a feared player around here.

Danny

Black-Balled
10-19-2007, 05:48 AM
Keither was on the moon. The World was shy. We can revisit this matter in a few years, IMO.

8ballEinstein
10-19-2007, 06:10 AM
I've seen 'em both and I'd have to go with Keith. He was just a freak (in his prime).

Keith McCready
10-19-2007, 06:41 AM
Keith's extra-curricular (SP?) activities would sometimes cause some inconsistancies. Keith would make spectacular shots, like bank the cue ball into a ball in the center of the table and make it. He played close to St. Louis Louis speed, usually winning but on occasion losing. He definitely would play anyone who rolled through southern California and wanted to play.
He did go to Shreveport in the late seventies and lost to Buddy getting the wild or call 7 (depends on whether you ask Buddy or Keith), but that was on Buddy's home turf and table that was set up for him. Brian Hashimoto staked Keith.
He was sure a feared player around here.

Danny

I don't really like coming on these forums, but let's get down to reality.

I'm not going to take nothing away from Shane. He's a good player, but he would have been another statue playing me. I gave Kim Davenport the 7-ball, and he couldn't win no more, had to go to the 6-ball on my break, 7 on his. I give Morro Paez the 7, Ernesto Dominguez the 7-ball, 4-by-8 tables as well as the big tables.

The thing about was, when I had to play, there was always adjustments from table to table, but I gave it to them all on ANY TABLE THEY WANTED. Just pick your table, and that's just the way it was.

As far as Buddy and me playing, with me getting backed by Brian, that was my first road trip. I was 16 years old, a little green, but up and coming.

Just to let you know, there were pool players that had gears, and then there were pool players that had other gears, but they could not fade my gears. GEARS is what it is all about. It didn't matter back then what number ball somebody got because they couldn't fade the 6's, the 7's, the 8's, the 10's, and the 12's. And I guarantee you that I'd run more packages than any living human back then.

Danny Kuykendal
10-19-2007, 06:44 AM
Sorry, Keith, I'm in total agreement with you. Buddy would have had his testicles handed to him on a silver platter if he'd of come to Hard Times in Costa Mesa when you were playing your best.

Danny

Keith McCready
10-19-2007, 06:47 AM
Sorry, Keith, I'm in total agreement with you. Buddy would have had his testicles handed to him on a silver platter if he'd of come to Hard Times in Costa Mesa.

Danny

Thank you very much, Danny. Back then on my home table at Hard Times in Newport Beach, that's where I did a lot of damage, as well as Nutty Nero's. That's where they all got the 7, and let's not forget 4th and Main where I busted every Mexican champion on earth, giving them the 7.

8ballEinstein
10-19-2007, 06:51 AM
I don't really like coming on these forums, but let's get down to reality.

I'm not going to take nothing away from Shane. He's a good player, but he would have been another statue playing me. I gave Kim Davenport the 7-ball, and he couldn't win no more, had to go to the 6-ball on my break, 7 on his. I give Morro Paez the 7, Ernesto Dominguez the 7-ball, 4-by-8 tables as well as the big tables.

The thing about was, when I had to play, there was always adjustments from table to table, but I gave it to them all on ANY TABLE THEY WANTED. Just pick your table, and that's just the way it was.

As far as Buddy and me playing, with me getting backed by Brian, that was my first road trip. I was 16 years old, a little green, but up and coming.

Just to let you know, there were pool players that had gears, and then there were pool players that had other gears, but they could not fade my gears. GEARS is what it is all about. It didn't matter back then what number ball somebody got because they couldn't fade the 6's, the 7's, the 8's, the 10's, and the 12's. And I guarantee you that I'd run more packages than any living human back then.

Thanks Keith. Will we get to see you make a comeback? You were absolutely amazing in those days.

Danny Kuykendal
10-19-2007, 06:58 AM
Don't forget Willie's in Midway City where you spotted King Kong the six on the bar box and toasted him.He wasn't called King Kong for nothin'.

Danny

student4ever
10-19-2007, 07:03 AM
Hey Keith, I hope to see you hit those speeds again. Hey ya never know, Efren seems to get better with age.lol. Anyway are you coming to the snookers ocean state "banner"tourney this year?

Ltldebbie
10-19-2007, 07:05 AM
Evil,
Keith, do you remember when we got a ride to Pomona is a ratty orange toyota. You got knocked out of the tournament, it was televised. They wouldn't let you gamble on the practise tables because too many people were watching you. A bar owner that had closed for the tourny opened his bar for a private game. You gave Isaak the four ball and the breaks, we went home in a Rolls. (it was white w gold trim). Now that was entertainment.
Little Debbie
PS I heard he hung up his cue for years after that.

Keith McCready
10-19-2007, 07:06 AM
Don't forget Willie's in Midway City where you spotted King Kong the six on the bar box and toasted him.He wasn't called King Kong for nothin'.

Danny

That's right. Willie's was another good spot. King Kong got the 6-ball, but then after I busted him with the 6, I gave him the 5 and broke him again. We would flock at Willie's and then go down to Newport Beach.

Let's not forget about Billy Ray Suden. He got the 5 as well. And John Shuppett got the 6 with the big cueball. Where I did a lot of my damage was with the big cueball. There wasn't nobody alive the could beat me on a 4-by-8 with big cueball. If there was, who was it?

The thing about it, when I beat them with the big cueball, giving them all these spots, they would want the same spots on a 4-1/2 by 9 with a regulation cueball, which was really hard to do, but I tried it anyways, just to get action.

I outrun the nuts a few times, didn't win all the time, but I win some of the time. People don't realize spots change from different tables and different cueballs, but it was hard for me because they were so scared of me. I went ahead and would give them the same spot anyways. It was pretty hard to overcome.

Buddy Hall was the same way in his prime as I was in mine, having to give up weight in order to get played. Craig Stevens is another one that had gears.

Keith McCready
10-19-2007, 07:09 AM
Evil,
Keith, do you remember when we got a ride to Pomona is a ratty orange toyota. You got knocked out of the tournament, it was televised. They wouldn't let you gamble on the practise tables because too many people were watching you. A bar owner that had closed for the tourny opened his bar for a private game. You gave Isaak the four ball and we went home in a Rolls. (it was white w gold trim). Now that was entertainment.
Little Debbie

Hi, Little Debbie! I was wondering what you'd been doing all these years.

Yeah, I remember that. That was funny!

There was a lot of things that you and I did that was funny. I'll never forget when you threw the chicken at me, at the apartment, with me and Don Percy. That was hilarious! :D

ironman
10-19-2007, 07:11 AM
I don't really like coming on these forums, but let's get down to reality.

I'm not going to take nothing away from Shane. He's a good player, but he would have been another statue playing me. I gave Kim Davenport the 7-ball, and he couldn't win no more, had to go to the 6-ball on my break, 7 on his. I give Morro Paez the 7, Ernesto Dominguez the 7-ball, 4-by-8 tables as well as the big tables.

The thing about was, when I had to play, there was always adjustments from table to table, but I gave it to them all on ANY TABLE THEY WANTED. Just pick your table, and that's just the way it was.

As far as Buddy and me playing, with me getting backed by Brian, that was my first road trip. I was 16 years old, a little green, but up and coming.

Just to let you know, there were pool players that had gears, and then there were pool players that had other gears, but they could not fade my gears. GEARS is what it is all about. It didn't matter back then what number ball somebody got because they couldn't fade the 6's, the 7's, the 8's, the 10's, and the 12's. And I guarantee you that I'd run more packages than any living human back then.

I agree with you 100%. The packages is what serparated the players in those days..... Players today can't fade the heat today as back in those days.

Todays players play great and I enjoy their play and respect it, I promise and I understand that todays young get tired of us older guys ranting about Keith, Buddy,Louie, Wade, Searcy, Marino, Segal,Stevens, and many others.

There was no money in organized pool back then and all the players had to rely on, was each other. "I got a new Stake, come get me"! that is just the waay it was.

The thing is though, spots were not that big a deal when you went a fired at someone on their home table. It was all about fading heat because at some point the package was coming. Just as Keith stated. It was 6--8-9- or eve a 10 pack coming at you. You sat there in the chair and just had to learn to fade it and wait for your turn.

Could SVB fade the heat of Keith in 1980? I'm just not sure, but, he would ave come away a better player.

bigskyjake
10-19-2007, 07:55 AM
Based on what I've seen Keith would have snagged the cheese

BTW: Keith man, you gotta get back in the ring. Dust off that Madden and start kickin some ass


Jake

PIRANHA
10-19-2007, 08:26 AM
Based on what I've seen Keith would have snagged the cheese

BTW: Keith man, you gotta get back in the ring. Dust off that Madden and start kickin some ass


Jake
Keith,
Jog my memo, How did you come out the time you played one of the locos and all he had to do was hit the object ball .lol??? LES

bigskyjake
10-19-2007, 08:29 AM
Keith,
Jog my memo, How did you come out the time you played one of the locos and all he had to do was hit the object ball .lol??? LES


JEEEEZUSS

that's a big ass spot

ribdoner
10-19-2007, 08:31 AM
Keith's extra-curricular (SP?) activities would sometimes cause some inconsistancies. Keith would make spectacular shots, like bank the cue ball into a ball in the center of the table and make it. He played close to St. Louis Louis speed, usually winning but on occasion losing. He definitely would play anyone who rolled through southern California and wanted to play.
He did go to Shreveport in the late seventies and lost to Buddy getting the wild or call 7 (depends on whether you ask Buddy or Keith), but that was on Buddy's home turf and table that was set up for him. Brian Hashimoto staked Keith.
He was sure a feared player around here.

Danny

Had the pleasure of watching KEITH and LOUIE play at least twice and maybe three times ( things from those days are a little foggy) in the late 70's and KIETH got there. Maybe I'm wrong but I think K was the better player.

Not seen SVB play but I've heard of him booking lot's of winners. He appears to be the real deal...

PIRANHA
10-19-2007, 08:46 AM
Yelh ! I know ,but you layed it down. I don't remember how you did ,but you did get action. Also you remember T.C..?? You said you had to bank the 9 -ball to win. No problem, he wanted to buy out after you showed up and out. LES

bigskyjake
10-19-2007, 08:49 AM
Yelh ! I know ,but you layed it down. I don't remember how you did ,but you did get action. Also you remember T.C..?? You said you had to bank the 9 -ball to win. No problem, he wanted to buy out after you showed up and out. LES


Sorry to bust your bubble man, but I'm not Keith. I'm just a BIG Keith fan

PoolBum
10-19-2007, 08:51 AM
Buddy Hall was the same way in his prime as I was in mine, having to give up weight in order to get played. Craig Stevens is another one that had gears.

Did you ever match up with Stevens Keith?

supercue
10-19-2007, 09:15 AM
I don't really like coming on these forums, but let's get down to reality.

I'm not going to take nothing away from Shane. He's a good player, but he would have been another statue playing me. I gave Kim Davenport the 7-ball, and he couldn't win no more, had to go to the 6-ball on my break, 7 on his. I give Morro Paez the 7, Ernesto Dominguez the 7-ball, 4-by-8 tables as well as the big tables.

The thing about was, when I had to play, there was always adjustments from table to table, but I gave it to them all on ANY TABLE THEY WANTED. Just pick your table, and that's just the way it was.

As far as Buddy and me playing, with me getting backed by Brian, that was my first road trip. I was 16 years old, a little green, but up and coming.

Just to let you know, there were pool players that had gears, and then there were pool players that had other gears, but they could not fade my gears. GEARS is what it is all about. It didn't matter back then what number ball somebody got because they couldn't fade the 6's, the 7's, the 8's, the 10's, and the 12's. And I guarantee you that I'd run more packages than any living human back then.
I knew Keith back when he was a youngster,and yes ,he was an auesome player,unbeatable. there was also another young player,and I'm sure Keith will agree,Cole Dixon. I always considered them about equal and with any determination either one of them could have dominated the tpo charts. I love
my grandsone,Shane,and I do feel he's the best there is today but I believe he would need to step it up a half a notch to weather the storm with both,Keith or Cole. What do you say Keith ? ? ? ?
Gary Bloomberg

PIRANHA
10-19-2007, 09:26 AM
WELL, will the real Keith stand up? Still I like to tell of his stay in Raytown, one of the old time pool halls. LES A FAN

crawfish
10-19-2007, 10:15 AM
Hi, Little Debbie! I was wondering what you'd been doing all these years.

Yeah, I remember that. That was funny!

There was a lot of things that you and I did that was funny. I'll never forget when you threw the chicken at me, at the apartment, with me and Don Percy. That was hilarious! :D
What's up Keith. It's Keith from Raleigh. Remember torchering Brian Atchley on the barbox with Kojak staking him. Man, that was a blast. I talked to your lady about a couple of things. Get in touch.

Guys, I am sure Shane is a world beater. But, he'd better be. And he'd better be again, and again, and again. In the mid 80's, Keith just kept comin' at ya. 2's, 4's, 6's, etc. Bar table, forget about it. I sat and watched Keith run over Brian Atchley (right after Brian had won the bar table open). Shane might hang with Keith until "the gear." When the gear hit, I don't think many people can fade rack after rack after rack. And like others have said.... it was comin'. Racks in the plural sense. Love to see that matchup, but unfortunately we never will.

In those days, cash games was what most of the guys relied on. Today, it would be a spectacle event. Perfect place, conditions, table, air condition, cloth, cue ball, etc. Back then, if you went looking for action, you adjusted to where your guy was. I don't know, it was just different. I can't explain it. It just was.

wincardona
10-19-2007, 10:27 AM
In 1972 I was playing the best 9 ball I ever played,and was considered along with Buddy and Wade as the strongest 9 ball players in the country. Jimmy Reid was also in that group. Matter of fact Reid played the best 10 ball i've ever seen anyone play,including today's players. Like Keith said it was about gears and Jimmy Reid certainly had one of the highest gears of anyone,along with Keith.Keith became one of the best players after that era and he may have had the highest gears of all the players of that time.Which included Hall,Sigel,and Louie. What made Keith so super strong was that he was the best shot maker out of everyone,with a fearless demeanor. He never had the cue ball of a Hall or Sigel but he just never missed which made him the most feared player alive.We can go back in forth about who was the best and never reach a conclusion,but when Keith caught his gear he was unbeatable.Keith has to be considered one of the best when you talk about how good a player CAN play. Both Keith and Reid had a higher gear than me,I was more consistant because my cue ball was better. Keith beat you putting packages on you,because he never seen a shot he could't make,and he really believed that,which obviously aided him in running racks.So consequently when he caught the right clicks your money was gone.So when you talk about gun slingers Keith was way way up there.

TWOFORPOOL
10-19-2007, 10:44 AM
Keith is one of the greatest players that ever played. I once saw him play Swanee at the Sports Arena on 9' Tight Rebco table. Swanee had Keith 6-1 in a race to 7. Swanee broke and didn't make a ball on the break. Keith jumped up out of his seat and told Swanee that it just cost him the set. Keith then ran 6 and out to win 7-6. Keith had so much talent and BALLS that nobody to take it.

Back then Keith wasn't afraid of anybody and could beat anybody giving world class players weight. Back in the days of roll out NOBODY could beat him. He would roll out to unmakeble shots and make them. He could kick balls in from anywhere. BEST PLAYER I HAVE EVER SEEN.

Keith's game went down 2 balls when one foul ball in hand and alternate break came into play. He could no longer keep control of the game by running racks. He also had to fade lesser players getting out of line only to play safe.

Danny Kuykendal
10-19-2007, 10:47 AM
I remember watching Keith play for the first time at a tournament played in Anaheim in about 1975. All the players were there, Lassiter, though aging, Richie Florence, Ronnie Allen, Dan Louie etc. Keith arrived just barely on time for a match, with shoulder length hair that he moved out of his face with bobby pins.
I remember something about Keith's game back then; when out of line, even if the object ball was in the center of the table Keith would fire in the bank so position was easier. No fear.

Obviously, Keith won the nine ball section of the tournament.

Danny K

corvette1340
10-19-2007, 10:56 AM
Thank you very much, Danny. Back then on my home table at Hard Times in Newport Beach, that's where I did a lot of damage, as well as Nutty Nero's. That's where they all got the 7, and let's not forget 4th and Main where I busted every Mexican champion on earth, giving them the 7.


lol, I just found this funny. I wish you would bust every illegal Mexican immigrant.

hemicudas
10-19-2007, 11:06 AM
There was no money in organized pool back then and all the players had to rely on, was each other. "I got a new Stake, come get me"! that is just the way it was.

Absolutely correct, Ironman,,,,,,,,,,,and the loser's last comments were always,,,,,,,,,"Tellum where ya got it."

BTW, thanks, JAM.

jrhendy
10-19-2007, 12:15 PM
I agree with you 100%. The packages is what serparated the players in those days..... Players today can't fade the heat today as back in those days.

Todays players play great and I enjoy their play and respect it, I promise and I understand that todays young get tired of us older guys ranting about Keith, Buddy,Louie, Wade, Searcy, Marino, Segal,Stevens, and many others.

There was no money in organized pool back then and all the players had to rely on, was each other. "I got a new Stake, come get me"! that is just the waay it was.

The thing is though, spots were not that big a deal when you went a fired at someone on their home table. It was all about fading heat because at some point the package was coming. Just as Keith stated. It was 6--8-9- or eve a 10 pack coming at you. You sat there in the chair and just had to learn to fade it and wait for your turn.

Could SVB fade the heat of Keith in 1980? I'm just not sure, but, he would ave come away a better player.

If there were as many players / stakehorses back in the day that would play these 10/20k sets, Keith would be a jillionaire today. No BS with the rack, home court or which size table. They got played and they got beat. John

Neil
10-19-2007, 02:55 PM
................

Black-Balled
10-19-2007, 04:00 PM
Keith- In you honor, I present to all AZB, my 3yr old daughter's first post:

claire:p

(She did that all by herself. Sorry she stuck her tounge out at you, she likes that face)

jnav447
10-19-2007, 04:29 PM
What I remember most about the best cash-game players from the 60s-80s was the heart and stamina to stay with the other guy for as long as it took to win it all. Back then, the standard matchup lasted until one of you went broke. There were a lot of players, and I include myself, who looked like world beaters for the first few hours, but by the second day were broken down to parade rest. In my mind, the real champions of pool are the ones who can beat you if you play an hour, 48 hours or a week. And this type of player (Keith, Buddy, Ronnie Allen, Richie Florence, Louie Roberts, Portland Don, Denny Searcy, et al), IF you had the stones to beat them, they would reload and come back and try you again until they had every nickel you, your backer, your family, your friends, and your goomah could scrounge up. I played over my head one time and beat a slightly tipsy Mike Massey out of some money on a bar table (back when he was drinking, around 1970). He came in the next night, offered me the 7-ball (we played even the first time), I jumped on it, but, like Danny D would say, I jumped on my wallet (and everyone else's in the joint). At the end, he was giving me weight, playing jacked up one-handed, running out like rainwater and basically busted the place. No hustle, no stall, just a guy with a champ's heart beating someone with a chimp's heart. Oh well, I wound up with the better looking bimbo that night (cause she wasn't a pool fan). Today's players are not technically inferior to the last generation of players IMO, I just don't think they're as battle-hardened and corncob tough. But, I can remember the old guys at Cochran's saying the same thing about their heroes vs the young guns like Ronnie Allen and Frisco Jack, so....

sjm
10-19-2007, 05:11 PM
Keith has a track record and a victims list a mile long. Shane is certainly becoming one of the premier players in the world, but his pedigree is still developing. The sky is the limit for the kid from South Dakota, but, for now, his credentials as a gambler don't make him worthy of mention with a Keith Macready.

Keith, Buddy, Vernon --- world beaters for the cash who proved it over and over and over and over. Shane --- we shall see, but he's got a long way to go if he's gonna be counted in their kind of company.

Fatboy
10-19-2007, 07:03 PM
I believe that if anyone is capable of being a Keith(without habits) its SVB, but SVB needs another 2 years of seasioning to comperable to Keith.

JAM-when I say habits its not a knock just what I observed and no disrespect meant, Keith is a true ledgend and a wonderful assett to pool then and hopefully in the near future.

Shane will be the huge $$$ player like Keith but he still needs a bit of time, he will never have the personality of keith, who does? But Shane is a class act and has my admiraton and respect, same for keith. hows that?

smashmouth
10-19-2007, 08:56 PM
traits like "heart" and "battle hardness" are often a product of economic times.

someone here once said those old school guys had them in spades, with the depression era players being the fiercest ever

I agree with that, BUT today's player trounce the old timers on a technical level, even this decade guys have brought up the level to far beyond what we saw in the 90's

when discussing hypothetical situations of today's bets vs yesteryear's should the new guys be punished for having "easier" lives?

It's fun debating, and I personally don't feel strongly one way or the other but as a lifelong sports fan, and this argument arises in every sport, when objective , non biased opinions are presented by those who lived through multiple eras, pretty much the consensus that I've seen is that "new" beats "old"

having said that, if I could watch any 10 players in their prime, not one of them would be under 50

Kid Dynomite
10-19-2007, 09:25 PM
I have had the honor of playing Keith and watching Keith play. I must say the man is the best alive. I have played many pro players and todays rack mechanics can not compare to keiths talent.

I watch Keith Barbeque Cliff Joyner in 8 ball at the IPT qualifier and later on barbeque him in one hole. Cliff gave up a ball and played 8 to 7 if memory serves me correct and it could have been the other way around and keith would have still won if he gave cliff 8 to 6. He plays that strong!!!

What comes to mind when I see keith play most is that line in the Hustler where Fast Eddie says "the cue just has nerves in it I tell you" "Its like the cue is just apart of my hand with nerves running thru it" NO ONE PERSONIFIES THAT STATEMENT MORE THAN KEITH!!!!!!!!

I love his side winder style of play but it is more controlled than Bustamente and the only one close in style or form is Randolpho Luat!!! Keith bumps ball for position better than anyone in the world and Inside english's balls better than every one else as well. Corey dueul is the only person I have seen in along time spin the rock like keith or even come close and that is saying something!!!!!

Kid
Dynomite

Fatboy
10-19-2007, 10:00 PM
after what i saw tonight SVB might be there now, not in a couple years as I stated eariler, wow, he played perfect,

ghost ball
10-19-2007, 11:57 PM
My story about Keith... I grew up near Bob's Billiards and had a job across the street from the place bending tacos, Tito's Tacos for those who are in the know. It was about this time I was drawn into the game. I got word that the US Open Champion swings his stick there. I know now this was not true, since he has not won a US Open and this was about 1986 and he had far outgrown Bob's.

Fast forward to 1995 ish (brain fade), by now I take my game to the next level. I frequent Hardtimes to watch the plethora of talent. It was the first time I've seen the urban legend in action. Despite the many incredible match ups, I was always drawn to McCready's matches. Seemed effortless for him to run out, plain and simple. And that stroke.....

Another thing about Keith, and I hope he is reading this, around these parts of the OC (the real OC I might add), he is a LEGEND! A bonifide legend.... How else can a rumor like the one above start?

Mark~ my real name for Danny K purposes :D , even though I rarely play anymore, I like to play at Danny K's. Anyone wanna matchup? ;)

PoolBum
10-20-2007, 12:24 AM
Mark~ my real name for Danny K purposes :D , even though I rarely play anymore, I like to play at Danny K's. Anyone wanna matchup? ;)

The pockets are too big. :D

skeeterpro
10-20-2007, 01:00 AM
The only time I saw Keith play was in Vegas in the late 80s. He matched up with a 19 year old kid on the bar table playing 8 ball. The kid absolutely drilled him. Keith had a different gear alright...he put it in high gear and got the hell out of there. As far as Keith and Shane playing....don't make me laugh. I watched Shane play for hours two weeks ago on the bar table and I saw him run several racks of 8 ball and 10 ball shooting with one hand. The players today are much better than the players of 20 years ago. The younger generation is better in all sports. Look around and tell me that isn't the case.

MexPoolPlyr
10-20-2007, 01:21 AM
Keith, you did give my pops the 7. But before that, you gave him the 6 and drilled him... in his words. :)

He still considers matches with "el diablo" as some of his most memorable action. Hope your doing well Keith. Oscar D.

Fast Lenny
10-20-2007, 04:11 AM
The only time I saw Keith play was in Vegas in the late 80s. He matched up with a 19 year old kid on the bar table playing 8 ball. The kid absolutely drilled him. Keith had a different gear alright...he put it in high gear and got the hell out of there. As far as Keith and Shane playing....don't make me laugh. I watched Shane play for hours two weeks ago on the bar table and I saw him run several racks of 8 ball and 10 ball shooting with one hand. The players today are much better than the players of 20 years ago. The younger generation is better in all sports. Look around and tell me that isn't the case.
Well i think the equipment is better and in all the sports its different then it was way back when.

crawfish
10-20-2007, 06:20 AM
Let's see - from about 17 on all we ever hear about Keith is that he was beating on champions giving up weight.

Shane has been running around the country for a few years now but I don't recall that he has given any champions any weight only taken weight.

I would say that Shane has managed his development as a player pretty well, matches up well and is currently playing 9 and 10 ball about as well as it can be played.

Keith apparently didn't go that route - he just started busting champion after champion giving up the nuts.

Shane might end up being the world's best player. He might end up as dominant as Archer was. He might do a lot of things to live up to the potential he has already shown. But one thing he will never do is be able to say that he gave up weight to world beaters before he could vote.

And barbecued them.
Yeeee Haaaaaa! Mr. Barton. Yee Haa!

crawfish
10-20-2007, 06:36 AM
The only time I saw Keith play was in Vegas in the late 80s. He matched up with a 19 year old kid on the bar table playing 8 ball. The kid absolutely drilled him. Keith had a different gear alright...he put it in high gear and got the hell out of there. As far as Keith and Shane playing....don't make me laugh. I watched Shane play for hours two weeks ago on the bar table and I saw him run several racks of 8 ball and 10 ball shooting with one hand. The players today are much better than the players of 20 years ago. The younger generation is better in all sports. Look around and tell me that isn't the case.No disrespect to you, but how old are you? Son, put the pipe down. There's still time. You don't need that stuff. Several? I've seen Keith put an 8, then miss, then follow it up with a seven. If you didn't see him in "his" prime, you don't even need to chime in. The question was about Shane of now, and Keith at his best. Shane might, and I say might reach what Keith did, but the guy was beating champions giving them the seven at 18 years old!

As far as the younger people being better in all sports.....with technology, diet, chemicals, food, living conditions, equipment, yeah.... maybe so. You take some of the champions of ANY sport and transport them into time and let them grow up in today's environment, and sit back and watch. Could be interesting.

Fast Lenny
10-20-2007, 06:43 AM
I heard Keith ran 21 racks or something ridiculous.:eek:

8ballEinstein
10-20-2007, 07:18 AM
I heard Keith ran 21 racks or something ridiculous.:eek:

I heard the same story. From reliable sources, no less. I understand it was a matchup with a road player consisting of 3 races to 7. This apparantly happened on the barbox at the old Hard Times in Costa Mesa. The road player won the first break, made nothing, and then sat down to watch Keith run out. Amazing if true but after watching Keith for many years, I think it's entirely possible.

bud green
10-20-2007, 09:32 AM
I started watching pool pros in the early nineties and find it hard to believe anyone had a higher gear than Earl when he was going good and breaking well. He was just crushing people in Reno on those big pockets.

Did Earl not gamble all that much or was he better at tournements? It just seems weird no one mentions a guy with 9 or 10 world championships and US Opens.

midnightpulp
10-20-2007, 09:36 AM
I heard the same story. From reliable sources, no less. I understand it was a matchup with a road player consisting of 3 races to 7. This apparantly happened on the barbox at the old Hard Times in Costa Mesa. The road player won the first break, made nothing, and then sat down to watch Keith run out. Amazing if true but after watching Keith for many years, I think it's entirely possible.

Totally possible.

I remember reading an interview with Ernesto where he talks of him and King Kong playing barbox 8 ball. Ernesto ran 6 racks in row, came up dry on the break and King Kong proceeded to run 18 racks in row.

Man, these guys are good. Seems Televised matches doesn't do their game justice.

ginsu
10-20-2007, 09:47 AM
I believe that if anyone is capable of being a Keith(without habits) its SVB, but SVB needs another 2 years of seasioning to comperable to Keith.

JAM-when I say habits its not a knock just what I observed and no disrespect meant, Keith is a true ledgend and a wonderful assett to pool then and hopefully in the near future.

Shane will be the huge $$$ player like Keith but he still needs a bit of time, he will never have the personality of keith, who does? But Shane is a class act and has my admiraton and respect, same for keith. hows that?

Fatboy you are normally one of the most interesting posters and certainly not one that shoots out mean comments but the extra insert in your first sentence wasn't necesseay. A bit demeaning and not your typical style, sorry to see you go down that road. This was a great and positive thread about one of the greatest ever, why spoil it?

As far as Keith and Shane go, time will tell. Shane is todays great American player. But Keith had moments on a pool table, when in that special gear, that may never be duplicated. Let's give credit where due as you normally due.

ginsu
10-20-2007, 10:00 AM
I started watching pool pros in the early nineties and find it hard to believe anyone had a higher gear than Earl when he was going good and breaking well. He was just crushing people in Reno on those big pockets.

Did Earl not gamble all that much or was he better at tournements? It just seems weird no one mentions a guy with 9 or 10 world championships and US Opens.

Earl, imo, was the greatest tournment 9baller ever, period, his record speaks for itself. Keith, however was not the greatest tournment player. But Keith was at one time purely the most feared player on the planet. When he hit his high gear in 9ball he simply was the most prolific runner of pool balls that ever lived.

ginsu
10-20-2007, 10:01 AM
Let's see - from about 17 on all we ever hear about Keith is that he was beating on champions giving up weight.

Shane has been running around the country for a few years now but I don't recall that he has given any champions any weight only taken weight.

I would say that Shane has managed his development as a player pretty well, matches up well and is currently playing 9 and 10 ball about as well as it can be played.

Keith apparently didn't go that route - he just started busting champion after champion giving up the nuts.

Shane might end up being the world's best player. He might end up as dominant as Archer was. He might do a lot of things to live up to the potential he has already shown. But one thing he will never do is be able to say that he gave up weight to world beaters before he could vote.

And barbecued them.

Tap tap and some green for you. If they didn't see it, it's hard for them to understand. You had to be there I guess.

hemicudas
10-20-2007, 11:35 AM
The younger generation is better in all sports. Look around and tell me that isn't the case.

OK, I've looked around and I am telling you that you are wrong. But only about pool. True, sports that require speed, strength and jumping ability ie Baseball, Football, Basketball, Track & Field. The younger generation is far above players from the past. All you have to do is look at the records today vs yesterday and that is the only conclusion possible.

However,,,,,,,,,,pool has none of the physical requirements of the above sports. Heart, gamble and consistency are the requirements to offer the world the 7 ball. Keith, had all that and then some.

I like SVB and pull for him when he is down. I hope he turns into the top player on earth but when Keith was in stroke players like HOF member, Mike Sigel and Larry Hubbart wouldn't play without the 7 or 8 ball. Keith was more fun to watch than any of them too.

Black-Balled
10-20-2007, 11:37 AM
...when Keith was in stroke players like HOF member, Mike Sigel and Larry Hubbart wouldn't play without the 7 or 8 ball. Keith was more fun to watch than any of them too.
YeEEEOWCH!:eek:

Fatboy
10-20-2007, 12:21 PM
The only time I saw Keith play was in Vegas in the late 80s. He matched up with a 19 year old kid on the bar table playing 8 ball. The kid absolutely drilled him. Keith had a different gear alright...he put it in high gear and got the hell out of there. As far as Keith and Shane playing....don't make me laugh. I watched Shane play for hours two weeks ago on the bar table and I saw him run several racks of 8 ball and 10 ball shooting with one hand. The players today are much better than the players of 20 years ago. The younger generation is better in all sports. Look around and tell me that isn't the case.


I saw keith then too in Vegas and your right he wasnt playing good, but that was long after his best game, Keith was having personal troubles then and you didnt see the REAL Keith, trust me 98% of the stories about him beating the world are true but so is the dark times you saw, i saw them too and i'm glad those times are behind him, he has turned things around for himself and has a great woman in his life too.

worriedbeef
10-20-2007, 12:27 PM
i've only seen clips of keith play, and the matches i've seen (full ones) are recent where he's not obviosly at his peak. but i can see that he's one of those rare breeds of players who are just natural talents. the way he spins the ball effortlessly (somebody mentioned inside english, something i noticed too he does really well), the way he plays with that sidearm stroke - i'd have to dislocate my shoulder to do that!

and knowing his personality i can certainly believe he had the mental game and the heart to be the player many people have described. truly a rare breed of player - i need to get some videos of keith at his best, i hope there are some available.

Fatboy
10-20-2007, 12:29 PM
Fatboy you are normally one of the most interesting posters and certainly not one that shoots out mean comments but the extra insert in your first sentence wasn't necesseay. A bit demeaning and not your typical style, sorry to see you go down that road. This was a great and positive thread about one of the greatest ever, why spoil it?

As far as Keith and Shane go, time will tell. Shane is todays great American player. But Keith had moments on a pool table, when in that special gear, that may never be duplicated. Let's give credit where due as you normally due.


I didnt mean any disrespect to Keith, I have spoke to him many times in the pool rooms, and tournments years ago and we got along well everytime we spoke, he dosent know me I'm sure of that. I made alot on the rail betting on his matches, I said the comment about "Habits" with some hesitation, but I did make that post after hesitating and thinking about for a while. I did say it because it widely known but I didnt mean it in a bad way. I wouldnt ever knock Keith he is one of the best personalitys pool has ever had period, perhaps the best. I didnt mean to offend anyone, JAM, Keith and his fans-including me. Nobody is perfect, Keith is one of a kind and I wish him the best in the future and thank him for the past.

regards

fatboy,

and I do appologise if I upset or hurt anyone, i didnt want to make this a negative thread either, your correct i usually say positive things 99% of the time, and in a warped way it is positive about keith-he is amazing despite anything.

thank you for catching this, i appericate your comment to my post and will think twice next time, respect.

ginsu
10-20-2007, 12:50 PM
i've only seen clips of keith play, and the matches i've seen (full ones) are recent where he's not obviosly at his peak. but i can see that he's one of those rare breeds of players who are just natural talents. the way he spins the ball effortlessly (somebody mentioned inside english, something i noticed too he does really well), the way he plays with that sidearm stroke - i'd have to dislocate my shoulder to do that!

and knowing his personality i can certainly believe he had the mental game and the heart to be the player many people have described. truly a rare breed of player - i need to get some videos of keith at his best, i hope there are some available.

Keith was not at his best in tournments, doubtfull there are tapes of him gambling and any you find from tourney play don't tell the story.. You had to be there. The only record of his greatness is those who saw it live. You can beleive us or not. I well tell you this, at his best, Keith could get to a level few others have ever been and that's the truth.

CaptiveBred
10-20-2007, 01:44 PM
There is the 1 pocket tape of hime palying for 10k. I think its about 3 hours or something... Its been a while since I saw it but I think it was KM and ??? playing Harry Platis... I think it was something like that...

Thats at least one video of him gambling from a while ago... Late 80s early nineties I think.

If there is more, let us know.

ginsu
10-20-2007, 02:17 PM
There is the 1 pocket tape of hime palying for 10k. I think its about 3 hours or something... Its been a while since I saw it but I think it was KM and ??? playing Harry Platis... I think it was something like that...

Thats at least one video of him gambling from a while ago... Late 80s early nineties I think.

If there is more, let us know.

That's past his hey day. I don't think there is any tape while he was at his best.

kvinbrwr
10-20-2007, 02:24 PM
"Back in the day" if you walked into a room where Keith was playing, the atmosphere was completely different and all energy was coming from, or focused on, Keith. He was (past tense only because he chooses not to play) pool's only "Rock Star" and, judging from the posts here, its clear we all miss him.

Watch the Color of Money and its clear, every scene Keith appears in, he completely controls and is the center of. It was the same when he was in action, it was HIS stage, HIS scene, HIS table, HIS game, it must have been hideous for his opponents.

Or, a Nightmare.

Fast Lenny
10-20-2007, 02:50 PM
I heard the same story. From reliable sources, no less. I understand it was a matchup with a road player consisting of 3 races to 7. This apparantly happened on the barbox at the old Hard Times in Costa Mesa. The road player won the first break, made nothing, and then sat down to watch Keith run out. Amazing if true but after watching Keith for many years, I think it's entirely possible.
This was on a 9 ft. which makes 21 seem impossible,i guess it was 10 ahead and Keith was down a game,he ran 11 and then ran the next 10 for the total of 21,must have been the quickest 10 aheads ever.:D

8ballEinstein
10-20-2007, 03:04 PM
On some level I can understand that younger folks would question Keiths' abilities in his prime. They seem unbelievable. But Keith was just that. He was the most amazing player I've ever seen in my 27 years in the pool scene.

Some people have to understand the context in which Keith played. After the Johnson City and Stardust events, there were hardly any big tournaments going on. If you were playing big time pool in the mid to late 70's, the only real avenue you had were head to head matchups. At the very top level you needed talent, heart and stamina (long sessions were standard practice at the time). Keith honed those skills to a point of being the most feared player of his time.

In the early 80's, Richie Florence started promoting his big tournaments and the top players started gathering again. Although Keith would be impressive, he didn't finish high very often. He was simply out of his element.

About 1981, I remember being at the Caesars Tahoe event put on by Florence. Keith was shooting amazing pool but got knocked out early. Did it faze him? Not in the least. I saw him the next day when Cornbead Red said to him, "I understand you got your man for 17 thousand last night". With a broad smile he said, "Yeah". The story was repeated several times over the years with Keith doing his magic after the tournament was over.This was where he really shined. Tournaments never cut it for Keith.

Craig
10-20-2007, 04:07 PM
It's amazing how people try and dig up something about people doing drugs or what ever in sports.

Point is it doesn't matter what people do on the side lines it's their business. If you put your money up and gamble then this means that you understand that two things will happen you either WIN or you LOSE, it's called gambling right no one held a gun to your head and made you do it.

So if the person your gambling with drinks Alcohol or uses drugs, you know this going into it, so if your azz gets beat dont blame it on the substance it is simply gambling.

So with that being said who gives a Ratt's Azz what somebody does.

It didn't matter whether KM was geek up or coming out of church the man busted them all.

hemicudas
10-20-2007, 04:32 PM
[QUOTE=Fatboy]I didnt mean any disrespect to Keith, I have spoke to him many times in the pool rooms, and tournments years ago and we got along well everytime we spoke, he dosent know me I'm sure of that. I made alot on the rail betting on his matches.

I like your posts, Fatboy but Keith should know exactly who you are. When you make "A LOT" on the rail betting on his matches you should have tossed him a jelly roll every time, face to face. He would then remember you with affection. And yes, I always did. If I won 10 grocery dollars my guy got a single.

Like you say, nothing personal though.

Fatboy
10-20-2007, 04:42 PM
[QUOTE=Fatboy]I didnt mean any disrespect to Keith, I have spoke to him many times in the pool rooms, and tournments years ago and we got along well everytime we spoke, he dosent know me I'm sure of that. I made alot on the rail betting on his matches.

I like your posts, Fatboy but Keith should know exactly who you are. When you make "A LOT" on the rail betting on his matches you should have tossed him a jelly roll every time, face to face. He would then remember you with affection. And yes, I always did. If I won 10 grocery dollars my guy got a single.

Like you say, nothing personal though.


its all relitative, alot to me then was a hundred or two, i was busted in those days-i was a kid, a C-player, with no job, it was pennys to keith and the difference between a job or staying in the pool room to me.

SBV knows me we talk on the phone from time to time, and he has some comming from his win over Cory, if I win today he has more comming, if he loses I wont charge it against what I owe him now, now I can bet it up-I'm a big boy, before I was a kid with just a few $$'s scratching up anything I could, now that I can bet real $$$ I awalys take care of the players-I'm not a nit. When i bust Tooth it will be interesting to see who jelly rolls me.

i'm more than gererous with people when I go to dinner I awalys pay, I'm paying a pro's travel expenses right now and have given him mid 5 figure $$$. Why? because I can. He has been a friend for 20 years. I want nothing in return, i have paid my dues,

nothing personal.

CaptiveBred
10-20-2007, 05:00 PM
lol - you ain't gonna play tooth lol

Ltldebbie
10-20-2007, 06:38 PM
Keith,
Jog my memo, How did you come out the time you played one of the locos and all he had to do was hit the object ball .lol??? LES
Hey do the Brinks still own Reytown Rec. What a great room for a lonely pool player on the road. I took a taxi to see JoAnn from the Crown Center, she took me home to meet Don and then drove me all the way back to my Hotel. A million thanks. And it was Keith that sent me there.
Little Debbie
I'm not doing to bad for myself have you seen my little cakes and pastries.LoL (:

Ltldebbie
10-20-2007, 07:08 PM
In 1972 I was playing the best 9 ball I ever played,and was considered along with Buddy and Wade as the strongest 9 ball players in the country. Jimmy Reid was also in that group. Matter of fact Reid played the best 10 ball i've ever seen anyone play,including today's players. Like Keith said it was about gears and Jimmy Reid certainly had one of the highest gears of anyone,along with Keith.Keith became one of the best players after that era and he may have had the highest gears of all the players of that time.Which included Hall,Sigel,and Louie. What made Keith so super strong was that he was the best shot maker out of everyone,with a fearless demeanor. He never had the cue ball of a Hall or Sigel but he just never missed which made him the most feared player alive.We can go back in forth about who was the best and never reach a conclusion,but when Keith caught his gear he was unbeatable.Keith has to be considered one of the best when you talk about how good a player CAN play. Both Keith and Reid had a higher gear than me,I was more consistant because my cue ball was better. Keith beat you putting packages on you,because he never seen a shot he could't make,and he really believed that,which obviously aided him in running racks.So consequently when he caught the right clicks your money was gone.So when you talk about gun slingers Keith was way way up there.
I couldn't understand a little of what you were talking about and I will let Keith speak for himself but I have heard him say more than a few times. "If I can see the ball I can make the ball." By the way, I have also witnessed hundreds of kick shots that went in. He didn't ALWAYS have to see the ball to make it. I remember your game, you were consistent but,.... you really weren't playing "all" the champions. It took a little of the pressure off. Sorry, I really try to be nice but, I do have my rep(for honesty)and handicapping the players. I've never seen Shane play in person. Its just like the ponies, you have to be there... My only claim to fame is that I have sweat many thousands of hours of world class games. I am probably the oldest living sweater. I still go and watch, if things get desparate enough I might even have to play my way out. Action is made not found.
Sorry,
Little Debbie PS What did you mean he never had the cue ball. Do you mean he couldn't park whitey. If so I disagree. IMHO

kvinbrwr
10-20-2007, 07:46 PM
[QUOTE=hemicudas]


its all relitative, alot to me then was a hundred or two, i was busted in those days-i was a kid, a C-player, with no job, it was pennys to keith and the difference between a job or staying in the pool room to me.

SBV knows me we talk on the phone from time to time, and he has some comming from his win over Cory, if I win today he has more comming, if he loses I wont charge it against what I owe him now, now I can bet it up-I'm a big boy, before I was a kid with just a few $$'s scratching up anything I could, now that I can bet real $$$ I awalys take care of the players-I'm not a nit. When i bust Tooth it will be interesting to see who jelly rolls me.

i'm more than gererous with people when I go to dinner I awalys pay, I'm paying a pro's travel expenses right now and have given him mid 5 figure $$$. Why? because I can. He has been a friend for 20 years. I want nothing in return, i have paid my dues,

nothing personal.

FatBoy

By some strange logic I figure you owe me a taste from your Shane US Open take. I was pulling for Shane hard and I'm sure you don't want to underestimate my psychic abilities. If you are short of cash I'd consider a Szam (plainish is fine after all it was mere psychic energy I was putting out).

I've heard tales of an old Sacramento pool guy that used to offer to match rolls with everyone, winner take all. The temptation was to "load up" and try to take him down, of course the fear was your loaded roll wouldn't be enough and you'd lose it all. Your offer to match rolls with Tooth is a riot and if he were to accept, the results would be legend. If he's the lock artist everyone says he is, perhaps he ask you to spot him a few 100K.

Kevin

wincardona
10-20-2007, 08:33 PM
I couldn't understand a little of what you were talking about and I will let Keith speak for himself but I have heard him say more than a few times. "If I can see the ball I can make the ball." By the way, I have also witnessed hundreds of kick shots that went in. He didn't ALWAYS have to see the ball to make it. I remember your game, you were consistent but,.... you really weren't playing "all" the champions. It took a little of the pressure off. Sorry, I really try to be nice but, I do have my rep(for honesty)and handicapping the players. I've never seen Shane play in person. Its just like the ponies, you have to be there... My only claim to fame is that I have sweat many thousands of hours of world class games. I am probably the oldest living sweater. I still go and watch, if things get desparate enough I might even have to play my way out. Action is made not found.
Sorry,
Little Debbie PS What did you mean he never had the cue ball. Do you mean he couldn't park whitey. If so I disagree. IMHO
I really don't know if I know you but you misread my post. I gave keith a compliment and you thought I bashed him. Yes Keith was one of the best shotmakers ever,and he didn't handle the cue ball as well as Sigel,or Hall but then again who does. And in regard to your statement that I didn't play all the champions you are wrong, I played them all. Mizerak Hopkins,Fusco,Lisciotti,Florence,Allen,Breit,McCre ady,Mathews,Mataya,Hall,Wade Crane,Dickson,Kelly,Parica,Reyes,Varner,Strickland ,and many many more. Incidentally I have a few hours of sweating under my belt too.

bob_bushka
10-20-2007, 08:36 PM
Keith has a track record and a victims list a mile long. Shane is certainly becoming one of the premier players in the world, but his pedigree is still developing. The sky is the limit for the kid from South Dakota, but, for now, his credentials as a gambler don't make him worthy of mention with a Keith Macready.

Keith, Buddy, Vernon --- world beaters for the cash who proved it over and over and over and over. Shane --- we shall see, but he's got a long way to go if he's gonna be counted in their kind of company.

Well maybe that Shane is $50k richer some money players will want to play him now? lol

Fast Lenny
10-20-2007, 08:37 PM
I really don't know if I know you but you misread my post. I gave keith a compliment and you thought I bashed him. Yes Keith was one of the best shotmakers ever,and he didn't handle the cue ball as well as Sigel,or Hall but then again who does. And in regard to your statement that I didn't play all the champions you are wrong, I played them all.Incidentally I have a few hours of sweating under my belt too.
Your right Sigel,Hall,and Varner all had a great cueball.

Ltldebbie
10-20-2007, 09:25 PM
I really don't know if I know you but you misread my post. I gave keith a compliment and you thought I bashed him. Yes Keith was one of the best shotmakers ever,and he didn't handle the cue ball as well as Sigel,or Hall but then again who does. And in regard to your statement that I didn't play all the champions you are wrong, I played them all. Mizerak Hopkins,Fusco,Lisciotti,Florence,Allen,Breit,McCre ady,Mathews,Mataya,Hall,Wade Crane,Dickson,Kelly,Parica,Reyes,Varner,Strickland ,and many many more. Incidentally I have a few hours of sweating under my belt too.

Is this Billy??? If it is cuddos to you. You are so right. This is the second time I've written this so I hope I get it right....The first time I pushed some button and it all went away. So I hope I'm not double posting.

If this is Billy, I know you played the champions.....but just not all the time. You had some pretty sweet games that would have never stepped up to play Keith, Sigel, Hopkins etc. You know what I mean. You were a master at flying just under the radar as far as reps went. I am so Sorry if I did not communicate well. But on the good news side I have been clean and sober for 23 years. My memory is definitely poor prior to that and a little one sided too. You are right and I am wrong. Bet you never thought you'd hear that coming from this womans mouth.
Hugs
Debbie
PS we were always looking for you because if you were there action would be there.

cuetechasaurus
10-20-2007, 10:39 PM
There was a time when Billy was considered the best 9ball player on the planet. He wasn't insulting Keith, he was paying him a compliment and just telling it like it is.

Ltldebbie
10-21-2007, 12:08 AM
The pockets are too big. :D
Are you cally boys, or should I say the real OC still arguing about pocket size. I Laughed so loud I woke the baby. Thanks.... They do have buckets in some of those places. That why I love it.

cornfed
10-21-2007, 04:22 AM
Keith did not mention when he came to Castro Valley and played Bucktooth and gave Bucktooth the 6 ball with Charlie the Ape and beat Bucktooth and gave him the 5 ball and beat him again and quit said I'm tired and went back to L.A. Bucktooth said he called Keith on the phone and come and play some more you can win all the money you can carry. Bucktooth said I don't want the 5 ball which you beat me with just give me the 6 ball Keith came back they played 7 ahead for 1500 Bucktooth ran 7 racks and won the set Keith said he didn't like where the bar table was at so they picked it up carried it down stairs. fliped a coin for the break Bucktooth won and he broke the balls and ran another 7 racks and Keith quit this may be the only time a man never shot for his money in HISTORY........

smashmouth
10-21-2007, 08:43 AM
obviously Keith was a phenomenal money player but Shane is a world champion and now has a US open title under his belt

Keith never did either

8ballEinstein
10-21-2007, 08:51 AM
Keith did not mention when he came to Castro Valley and played Bucktooth and gave Bucktooth the 6 ball with Charlie the Ape and beat Bucktooth and gave him the 5 ball and beat him again and quit said I'm tired and went back to L.A. Bucktooth said he called Keith on the phone and come and play some more you can win all the money you can carry. Bucktooth said I don't want the 5 ball which you beat me with just give me the 6 ball Keith came back they played 7 ahead for 1500 Bucktooth ran 7 racks and won the set Keith said he didn't like where the bar table was at so they picked it up carried it down stairs. fliped a coin for the break Bucktooth won and he broke the balls and ran another 7 racks and Keith quit this may be the only time a man never shot for his money in HISTORY........

Cornfed, I'm not sure how Keith could have overlooked this! More than likely, Charlie the Ape was the one who quit.

JAM
10-21-2007, 09:54 AM
Well, here it is the morning after another glorious U.S. Open championship, and I can't express into words how elated I am to see a young American prodigy proclaim his legacy. In a field of 233 players, Shane Van Boening remained undefeated and provided pool fans around the world like me a renewed sense of enthusiasm. In fact, I'm sure this is only the beginning of the South Dakota Kid era, and the best is yet to come. :)

Pool is today moving to new horizons, thankfully. I believe The Action Report, as one prime example, effected a change in the pool world by bringing us podcast interviews and live coverage of action. Other pool entities soon followed suit. Isn't it fabulous that we can enjoy the latest happenings with just a mere click of the mouse? That's a good thing because you sure can't get it on American TV. Pool today is changing its course.

I think the pool world is big enough to celebrate all of the great players, past and present, but to compare a player of Keith's ilk to today's players is difficult to do. The evolution of the 9-ball game to today's ball-in-hand format, instituted by Mackey, et al. (according to Keith), changed pool forever when they took away the two-shot/push-out rules. The equipment today is also quite different, but thankfully, it has improved for the better because of pool industry movers and shakers like Diamond tables, Predator shafts, and the 860 Simonis cloth. Organizations and tours also have come and gone, some of which damaged professional pool in the United States. Today's tournament soldiers can avail themselves to competitive opportunities on a global scale, opportunities which were not available or didn't even exist several decades ago. If you look at the player roster of the U.S. Open in the '70s and '80s, you will not see very many international players' names listed, like they are today.

Keith McCready will never be heralded as a tournament champion, but I don't believe that winning multiple events necessarily is the only criteria to being a great pool player. Keith's legacy, with all its worts and bumps, is what it is, but I can tell you one thing for sure, at any event he steps foot in today, his table will be crowded. Whatever his legacy will be in the minds of the next generation, let it be known that he's an old-school player who enjoys games of stake, but most importantly, he loves to connect with the audience and railbirds. It is the fuel which ignites his engine. The more connected, the better Keith plays. Quite simply, Keith is an entertainer at heart.

There are many great pool players in the world, past and present. I personally do not like these "Who's the best" threads, but some seem to enjoy the public discourse. To compare players of different eras, though, isn't possible. It is disturbing to me sometimes to see the accolades of great players expressed at the expense of demeaning another great player. In fact, it's a shame that we cannot celebrate them all and appreciate them for whatever their legacies are.

I've seen Keith defeat Ronnie Alcano 9 to zero, and I have also seen Keith beat Shane Van Boening at the U.S. Open on the TV table. Does that mean he is the better player? Of course not. That's about as ignorant a comment as some I have read on this thread. In the scheme of things, Keith McCready is a great pool player.

Please don't bash me or my opinion. I have expressed it from my heart. I respect the opinions on this thread, good and bad. I just don't enjoy and sometimes do not understand these "Who's the Best?" threads when the comparisons of great players are truly like apples and oranges.

Congratulations to Shane Van Boening. May he continue his winning ways at the upcoming WPC and make us all proud! :)

JAM

JAM
10-21-2007, 10:33 AM
Here's a picture of two great American pool players.

The player on the left, 24 years old, is beginning his pool journey in life. :p

The gentleman on the right, 50 years old, still has a little fire left in his jug. ;)

I look forward to witnessing the Shane Van Boening legacy in all its glory! As an American, he makes me proud. :)

JAM

Fatboy
10-21-2007, 10:37 AM
Here's a picture of two great American pool players.

The player on the left, 24 years old, is beginning his pool journey in life. :p

The gentleman on the right, 50 years old, still has a little fire left in his jug. ;)

I look forward to witnessing the Shane Van Boening legacy in all its glory! As an American, he makes me proud. :)

JAM

there is a action match begging to go off, Keith needs to play a month and get all fired up, it would be fun to watch, especially with a mic on keith.

Fatboy
10-21-2007, 10:38 AM
Well, here it is the morning after another glorious U.S. Open championship, and I can't express into words how elated I am to see a young American prodigy proclaim his legacy. In a field of 233 players, Shane Van Boening remained undefeated and provided pool fans around the world like me a renewed sense of enthusiasm. In fact, I'm sure this is only the beginning of the South Dakota Kid era, and the best is yet to come. :)

Pool is today moving to new horizons, thankfully. I believe The Action Report, as one prime example, effected a change in the pool world by bringing us podcast interviews and live coverage of action. Other pool entities soon followed suit. Isn't it fabulous that we can enjoy the latest happenings with just a mere click of the mouse? That's a good thing because you sure can't get it on American TV. Pool today is changing its course.

I think the pool world is big enough to celebrate all of the great players, past and present, but to compare a player of Keith's ilk to today's players is difficult to do. The evolution of the 9-ball game to today's ball-in-hand format, instituted by Mackey, et al. (according to Keith), changed pool forever when they took away the two-shot/push-out rules. The equipment today is also quite different, but thankfully, it has improved for the better because of pool industry movers and shakers like Diamond tables, Predator shafts, and the 860 Simonis cloth. Organizations and tours also have come and gone, some of which damaged professional pool in the United States. Today's tournament soldiers can avail themselves to competitive opportunities on a global scale, opportunities which were not available or didn't even exist several decades ago. If you look at the player roster of the U.S. Open in the '70s and '80s, you will not see very many international players' names listed, like they are today.

Keith McCready will never be heralded as a tournament champion, but I don't believe that winning multiple events necessarily is the only criteria to being a great pool player. Keith's legacy, with all its worts and bumps, is what it is, but I can tell you one thing for sure, at any event he steps foot in today, his table will be crowded. Whatever his legacy will be in the minds of the next generation, let it be known that he's an old-school player who enjoys games of stake, but most importantly, he loves to connect with the audience and railbirds. It is the fuel which ignites his engine. The more connected, the better Keith plays. Quite simply, Keith is an entertainer at heart.

There are many great pool players in the world, past and present. I personally do not like these "Who's the best" threads, but some seem to enjoy the public discourse. To compare players of different eras, though, isn't possible. It is disturbing to me sometimes to see the accolades of great players expressed at the expense of demeaning another great player. In fact, it's a shame that we cannot celebrate them all and appreciate them for whatever their legacies are.

I've seen Keith defeat Ronnie Alcano 9 to zero, and I have also seen Keith beat Shane Van Boening at the U.S. Open on the TV table. Does that mean he is the better player? Of course not. That's about as ignorant a comment as some I have read on this thread. In the scheme of things, Keith McCready is a great pool player.

Please don't bash me or my opinion. I have expressed it from my heart. I respect the opinions on this thread, good and bad. I just don't enjoy and sometimes do not understand these "Who's the Best?" threads when the comparisons of great players are truly like apples and oranges.

Congratulations to Shane Van Boening. May he continue his winning ways at the upcoming WPC and make us all proud! :)

JAM


you type like Keith plays, do they have action matches for typing?, my $$$ is on you.

Fatboy
10-21-2007, 10:50 AM
lol - you ain't gonna play tooth lol

yeah i will. my back is so bad i cant play more than 2 hours on a good day, i did get to play 4 days this week, i took a tough game and we split the sets, we bet more on the second so i lost a little but I stepped up to a better player and played good all things considered, it was a good match, when i get my health back before tooth is too old ;) there will be a game, we almost played a few years ago. this has been going on waaaay before AZ. I hate to make excuses but its a fact, i spent 5 months in Germany for operations and have the scares to prove it, :(

if he will play me Monopoly now by the rule book we have a game,

I'm a honest stand-up guy i wouldnt trick anyone here into this if it wasnt gonna happen, just like Jay and my bank game its all true he is up 6-2 with a couple close games in there. Jay is softer than tooth(now i'm in trouble) :)

Madcity
10-21-2007, 11:00 AM
JAM

That is one of the best writings I've read on this forum. JAM said an awful lot in a short space.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but is there not an open challenge to play the new kid on the block for 10 grand? Not sure who will stepup but I'd be willing to pay to watch.

Somehustler
10-21-2007, 12:33 PM
From an earlier post someone said that Buddy beat Keith when he was 16 and Hawaiian Brain was staking him... my father is good friends with Hawaiian Brian and found out that the action actually happened in Oklahoma City, OK. Keith was 18 at the time and was getting the call 7 and got beat by Buddy. Buddy then proceeded to give Brian the 8 and lost around four thousand.

JAM
10-21-2007, 12:50 PM
From an earlier post someone said that Buddy beat Keith when he was 16 and Hawaiian Brain was staking him... my father is good friends with Hawaiian Brian and found out that the action actually happened in Oklahoma City, OK. Keith was 18 at the time and was getting the call 7 and got beat by Buddy. Buddy then proceeded to give Brian the 8 and lost around four thousand.

Thanks for the great Keithism! :)

I'm good friends with Keith McCready -- :D -- and he remembers that he was 16 years of age when this match occurred between himself and Buddy Hall, with Keith getting the wild 7 "after the break."

You are correct in that it was Keith's first road trip, and he was with Hawaiian Brian who staked him in the action. Brian got the call 8, and if it went in on the break, it was a win for Brian, unlike the above-referenced match-up between Buddy and Keith.

It always amazes me the different games these players could come up with. :p

The name of the Oklahoma City pool room was True Loves! :D

To elaborate a little further on this tale, Keith wanted to gamble, after he got beat by Buddy, with some guy named Mike Aikens (sp). Brian didn't like that game of Keith's and would not stake him.

Even at the tender age of 16, Keith knew how to make action happen. He learned from the best. Most children, who have a loving family when growing up, are fortunate to have families that support them in their chosen endeavors.

Keith's family as a young boy consisted of pool champions, hustlers, and road agents. After his mother passed away when he was a very young boy, Keith ended up living in the pool room, literally.

So Keith used this acquired skill of creating action and surveyed True Loves. He managed to find himself a stakehorse and proceeded to beat Mike Aikens out of $12,000, spotting him the 8 on a bar table. :cool:

JAM

Roy Steffensen
10-21-2007, 03:24 PM
This is a thread I really enjoy!!!

There is only one Keith McCready! Without doubt my favourite pool-entertainer!

I would LOVE to see a 9-ball match between Keith and Earl, race to 100, with mic on both of them!!!

Neil
10-21-2007, 03:58 PM
.............

bigskyjake
10-21-2007, 04:51 PM
I would LOVE to see a 9-ball match between Keith and Earl, race to 100, with mic on both of them!!!


That would be pretty much the nuts


(Jake raises his hands to the sky)God, if you're listening, let it be

pwd72s
10-21-2007, 05:15 PM
Keith vs. Earl? Hooboy! That would be one for the ages...like Ali-Foreman :D

CaptiveBred
10-21-2007, 05:19 PM
anybody else dissapointed to see Kieth go back into lurk mode? :( He teased all us internet nerds with a couple quick stories :(


That man should write a book about his gambling career. I would buy it the day it came out...

pbat2751
10-21-2007, 05:51 PM
Keith McCready will never be heralded as a tournament champion, but I don't believe that winning multiple events necessarily is the only criteria to being a great pool player. Keith's legacy, with all its worts and bumps, is what it is, but I can tell you one thing for sure, at any event he steps foot in today, his table will be crowded. Whatever his legacy will be in the minds of the next generation, let it be known that he's an old-school player who enjoys games of stake, but most importantly, he loves to connect with the audience and railbirds. It is the fuel which ignites his engine. The more connected, the better Keith plays. Quite simply, Keith is an entertainer at heart.
JAM

I've had my differences with Jam in the past and may still disagree with her in the future, but this is the best paragraph I've ever read from her. Keith is/was a stone cold gambler along with the likes of Fats, Cole Dixon, and Don Willis. While none of them may snap off a tourney they will definitely come home with the cash.

pletho
10-21-2007, 05:53 PM
I know i am new at posting but I believe this is important to understand in the current discusson, when comparion Shane and Keith a clear distinction has to be made IMO, and right or wrong this makes a hell of a bit of difference, great players who have habits will most likely dominate players who have no habits, look at all levels of sports, that is why there truly cannot be a real comparison, that is why so many pro sports players are called to the carpet, it gives an edge beyond what most understand unless they "truly understand".

I believe Keith was and is still great, and I believe that Shane is and will get even better, they are completely from different molds.

Greater stamina, sight inhanced, (wont explain this, those of you who are in the know should understand) and fearlessness comes hand in hand with habits, plus being a great player and great natural ability = a monster of a player.

Shane being clean as far as I have ever heard could not compete with that, and I believe that Keith most likely would have his hands full against Shane if the habits were taking out of the equation.

Like I said this maybe a touchy subject for some but if there is going to be a comparison this has got to be considered in order to be honest and fair in evaluating these players.

In no way am I judging any one by saying "habits" just facts well known and in the past as far as I know, only trying to make a comparison of two players a little more honest.

When ever someone acheives greatness there are always those who will try and belittle and take them down a notch in their believing and confidence, its the way of man, dominance is the name of the game greatness and wanting to stay at the top and keep the glory, unfortunatly time moves on and glory fades and a new one has to be crowned....

Ktown D
10-21-2007, 06:08 PM
I know i am new at posting but I believe this is important to understand in the current discusson, when comparion Shane and Keith a clear distinction has to be made IMO, and right or wrong this makes a hell of a bit of difference, great players who have habits will most likely dominate players who have no habits, look at all levels of sports, that is why there truly cannot be a real comparison, that is why so many pro sports players are called to the carpet, it gives an edge beyond what most understand unless they "truly understand".

I believe Keith was and is still great, and I believe that Shane is and will get even better, they are completely from different molds.

Greater stamina, sight inhanced, (wont explain this, those of you who are in the know should understand) and fearlessness comes hand in hand with habits, plus being a great player and great natural ability = a monster of a player.

Shane being clean as far as I have ever heard could not compete with that, and I believe that Keith most likely would have his hands full against Shane if the habits were taking out of the equation.

Like I said this maybe a touchy subject for some but if there is going to be a comparison this has got to be considered in order to be honest and fair in evaluating these players.

In no way am I judging any one by saying "habits" just facts well known and in the past as far as I know, only trying to make a comparison of two players a little more honest.

When ever someone acheives greatness there are always those who will try and belittle and take them down a notch in their believing and confidence, its the way of man, dominance is the name of the game greatness and wanting to stay at the top and keep the glory, unfortunatly time moves on and glory fades and a new one has to be crowned....
No offense but........this may be the silliest one post that I have read here in a long time.

I see Shane or anyone else who can focus and play on the natch as having a huge advantage over someone of like ability. No ups and downs due to chemistry is a huge benefit. If you had some of the first hand experiences that I have had with top notch players who had to get their mix right just to be able to play you would realize the invalidity in your statement. Granted, the players who depend on dope to play their game may hit a gear but they also may jar themselves and for my money I will take the straight guy.

Joseph Ortega
10-21-2007, 06:35 PM
Keith, you did give my pops the 7. But before that, you gave him the 6 and drilled him... in his words. :)

He still considers matches with "el diablo" as some of his most memorable action. Hope your doing well Keith. Oscar D.
Oscar, i saw you and your dad all week at the Open. I was jealous at the relationship you guys have, thats great. I never saw you play but i saw your Dad play and he is still an AWESOME player. By the way, i was the guy in the security line at the Norfolk airport Sunday morning.

rayjay
10-21-2007, 10:11 PM
...They had a challenge table there, and my then 10 year old daughter played him. He let her make a few shots, then he ran it down to the 9. He purposely got bad shape on it. A tough cut to the corner. He looked at it for a litle while, then cut it exactly into the point of the pocket so it would bobble and hang right there for her to make. One of the most impressive shots I've ever seen.

So, in reference to another thread, there is an example of a 'GOOD' dump. To this day she brags to me about beating him when I couldn't. He even wrote that on the t-shirt she won!

That is just pure class. I would have loved to have seen you play, Keith, but TCOM is as close as I got, maybe one day down the road...
:p

jay helfert
10-21-2007, 10:22 PM
No weight involved I would have Keith the favorite on the bar box and SVB on the 9'er.

Thanks Biil. That takes care of that as far as I'm concerned. Although playing Eight Ball or Ten Ball on a small box, Keith may have met his match. Don't get me wrong. Keith, Buddy and Matlock were great bar table champions, but so is Shane. He convinces me more every time I watch him play. No one has to be the favorite over him at any game!

Wait till he learns a little more One Pocket. I think he will embrace the game because of it's intricacies and complexity.

bondsman
10-22-2007, 01:58 AM
This was on a 9 ft. which makes 21 seem impossible,i guess it was 10 ahead and Keith was down a game,he ran 11 and then ran the next 10 for the total of 21,must have been the quickest 10 aheads ever.:D
I used to hang out in Hard Time in Costa Mesa. That match might have been against Tracey Joe Salazar. On the Buddy Hall story, keith could not have been older than 16. Most of you seem to have forgotten Tracey Joe. he was an outstanding during that era. Not many palyed Joe on the bar box except Keith.

JAM
10-22-2007, 02:54 AM
I used to hang out in Hard Time in Costa Mesa. That match might have been against Tracey Joe Salazar. On the Buddy Hall story, keith could not have been older than 16. Most of you seem to have forgotten Tracey Joe. he was an outstanding during that era. Not many palyed Joe on the bar box except Keith.

You are correct. Tracy Joe was quite the player on the bar box. :)

Here's a cute story about the two of them. A young Keith made an appointment to play the legendary Tracy Joe at a pool room that was off the beaten path.

Keith and a couple of his buddies drove out to the joint at the designated time. When they walked in, there was Tracy Joe waiting for him. The place was packed with curious onlookers wanting to sweat the match. Tracy Joe had his own fan club there in full force, too. :p

Before the first game, it was agreed that the post monies would be placed on top of the overhead light, a nickel each totalling a thousand bucks. It wasn't 10 crisp C-notes, though. Rather, it was a bunch of tens and twenties. I'm sure both players must have been playing on committee monies. ;)

Tracy Joe and Keith wasted no time and began to battle. It was like one of those neck-and-neck horse races. When one of them got close to the finish line, the other one would catch up. They were tight races. Back and forth they went until the wee hours of the morning, and then Keith caught one of those infamous gears and put it in turbocharge, defeating Tracy Joe several races.

Keith and his entourage were the strangers in town and wanted to get out of there as quick as they could with the cheese. So after the last set, they didn't want to hang around and mingle. They immediately exited the premises.

The night sky was pitch black in the parking lot. Keith and his buddies piled in their car to begin their journey back home. Within minutes it seemed, the driver of Keith's car saw headlights behind him, coming towards their car at an extremely fast pace. The driver of Keith's car figured they were going to get robbed and started to step on it, hitting speeds of close to 100 MPH. Keith said he was frightened. :eek:

Soon the car behind them made a move on this two-lane highway and pulled up right next to their car on the left. Keith and his buddies looked in horror when they saw this car full of the bar's patrons and wondered how they were going to get out of this trap. :(

The driver's side window of the other car was rolled down, and there was Tracy Joe. He had a bunch of greenbacks in one hand, pointing at it with his other hand, and screamed, "Keith, you forgot the post monies on the light."

Keith's driver pulled over to the shoulder of the road. Tracy Joe walked up to Keith's car and handed him the cash. Keith's driver was relieved, as were the rest of the occupants. On the way home, they all enjoyed a good chuckle. They were so intent on leaving, thinking they could get robbed, that they forget to grab the post on top of the light, and the would-be robbers turned out to be the good guys, only wanting to do the right thing. :o

JAM

yobagua
10-22-2007, 03:22 AM
In terms of "habits", during the 50's and 60's it was considered good to smoke and drink. The tobacco companies really had it easy with their tv advertising as well as the liquor companies. No government health restrictions whatsoever. Everyone smoked on tv even Lucy and Ricky.
Today sports people have dieticians, psychologists, and governing boards telling them whats good for the athlete. And so many warning labels. Too bad Efren didnt get the kind of info before he developed emphysyma.
I'm just saying Keith and his kind come from another era and cant be judged by today's standards. Shane seems to come from a good family with certain comforts. Anyone during my time with a pool table in his basement rec room was considered some kind of alien. We had a quonset hut for our house after the war. And anyone who owned their own home must have got it on the GI bill.
Two different times. You cant make comparisons.

Fast Lenny
10-22-2007, 03:46 AM
Great story Jam!:D

JAM
10-22-2007, 04:04 AM
...Two different times. You cant make comparisons.

I agree with your opinion. To compare a great pool player in the year 2007 to a great player who was on top of the world several decades ago is difficult to do, if not impossible. I have tried to express previously in this thread the reasons why I believe it is not a good comparison.

These "Who's the Best" threads will continue to pop up on this forum and entertain those who enjoy this type of dialogue. I usually do not reply to any of them. However, the comparison on this thread hits home with me, and as such, I have tried to express my stance on the subject matter as gracefully as I can.

When a player is on top of the world and winning, whether it be tournaments or the cheese in action, he is surrounded by fans, stakehorses, pool enthusiasts, and many so-called "friends." The pool public can be a fickle bunch. Today's champion may end up being tomorrow's punching bag for some.

Shane Van Boening is fortunate in that his family has a rich background in pool, as most folks know. As a young boy, I am sure he has enjoyed not only a nurturing environment, but also one which was supportive. It is so cool to see him blossoming into a thoroughbred pool champion.

In the year 2007, the tournament trail looks quite different than it did in 1977, to include the player rosters. Keith's tournament era consisted of great American champions like Sigel, Hopkins, Varner, Hall, Strickland, and Rempe, just to name a few, and according to him, he was MANY TIMES the proverbial "bride's maid," coming in second in tournaments, especially to Earl Strickland. Earl was a tournament soldier. Keith was an action man.

If you look at the U.S. Open as one measuring stick of American pool from the '70s and '80s, you will not see any players like the Efrens, Mikas, Niels, and Thorstens that you see today on the player rosters. The competitive playing field environment was quite different. AND I hasten to add that if Earl Strickland was about 20 years younger and dominated in today's pool world, I wonder if he would, indeed, snatch five U.S. Open titles in today's pool world. Not only was the equipment different, but the rules of 9-ball were as well.

In the '70s and '80s, action was prevalent. Though Keith traveled the tournament trail during these times, where he shined the brightest was during the after-hours action games. I believe these happenings were more important to him than the tournaments, and he sure did have a lot of so-called "friends" during this era.

You can compare Keith and Shane all day long. They are two different players that came from two entirely different worlds. If Shane grew up in Keith's early days environment, he'd be lucky to still be alive today.

In sum, I celebrate all pool players for everything that they have to offer. Shane is the flavor of the month today. I pity him if he has to ever read disparaging words of the times when he was on top of the world after he enters the autumn of his life. The pool culture can sometimes be cruel to its own, and how soon they forget the flavor of the month they used to celebrate from times gone by.

JAM

Solartje
10-22-2007, 04:15 AM
I agree with your opinion. To compare a great pool player in the year 2007 to a great player who was on top of the world several decades ago is difficult to do, if not impossible. I have tried to express previously in this thread the reasons why I believe it is not a good comparison.

These "Who's the Best" threads will continue to pop up on this forum and entertain those who enjoy this type of dialogue. I usually do not reply to any of them. However, the comparison on this thread hits home with me, and as such, I have tried to express my stance on the subject matter as gracefully as I can.

When a player is on top of the world and winning, whether it be tournaments or the cheese in action, he is surrounded by fans, stakehorses, pool enthusiasts, and many so-called "friends." The pool public can be a fickle bunch. Today's champion may end up being tomorrow's punching bag for some.

Shane Van Boening is fortunate in that his family has a rich background in pool, as most folks know. As a young boy, I am sure he has enjoyed not only a nurturing environment, but also one which was supportive. It is so cool to see him blossoming into a thoroughbred pool champion.

In the year 2007, the tournament trail looks quite different than it did in 1977, to include the player rosters. Keith's tournament era consisted of great American champions like Sigel, Hopkins, Varner, Hall, Strickland, and Rempe, just to name a few, and according to him, he was MANY TIMES the proverbial "bride's maid," coming in second in tournaments, especially to Earl Strickland. Earl was a tournament soldier. Keith was an action man.

If you look at the U.S. Open as one measuring stick of American pool from the '70s and '80s, you will not see any players like the Efrens, Mikas, Niels, and Thorstens that you see today on the player rosters. The competitive playing field environment was quite different. AND I hasten to add that if Earl Strickland was about 20 years younger and dominated in today's pool world, I wonder if he would, indeed, snatch five U.S. Open titles in today's pool world. Not only was the equipment different, but the rules of 9-ball were as well.

In the '70s and '80s, action was prevalent. Though Keith traveled the tournament trail during these times, where he shined the brightest was during the after-hours action games. I believe these happenings were more important to him than the tournaments, and he sure did have a lot of so-called "friends" during this era.

You can compare Keith and Shane all day long. They are two different players that came from two entirely different worlds. If Shane grew up in Keith's early days environment, he'd be lucky to still be alive today.

In sum, I celebrate all pool players for everything that they have to offer. Shane is the flavor of the month today. I pity him if he has to ever read disparaging words of the times when he was on top of the world after he enters the autumn of his life. The pool culture can sometimes be cruel to its own, and how soon they forget the flavor of the month they used to celebrate from times gone by.

JAM

thanks JAM for the writing, how can you always be SO right! :D
2 posts, and the 2 only posts that i will remember. says enough .

yobagua
10-22-2007, 03:35 PM
Wonderful post JAM. I just hope Keith and all the pool players I admire keep up their health and discontinue the terrible "habit" of smoking. I lost my mother and sister to lung cancer. They had a 2 pack a day habit. COuld you imagine if these young ones today had to play 12 hours a day in a smoke filled hall.
Remember Efrens terrible coughing fits? Since his doctor told him to stop he is doing great.

JCIN
10-22-2007, 04:05 PM
JAM

That is one of the best writings I've read on this forum. JAM said an awful lot in a short space.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but is there not an open challenge to play the new kid on the block for 10 grand? Not sure who will stepup but I'd be willing to pay to watch.
Billy Incardona said it on the commentary of the Action Challenge 1 and it is true.

Shane has an open challenge to anyone in the world to play Bar Table 8 ball. I am pretty sure they could bet whatever they want. There has been one player who is serious about taking this challenge. Stay tuned. :D

As far as The Action Challenge title, no matter who wins, there are challengers waiting in the wings.

JAM
10-22-2007, 04:18 PM
Billy Incardona said it on the commentary of the Action Challenge 1 and it is true.

Shane has an open challenge to anyone in the world to play Bar Table 8 ball. I am pretty sure they could bet whatever they want. There has been one player who is serious about taking this challenge. Stay tuned. :D

As far as The Action Challenge title, no matter who wins, there are challengers waiting in the wings.

Shane's action could soon be limited due to his recent triumphs. Earl Strickland is getting tarred and feathered on this forum for even thinking about stepping up to the plate against the South Dakota Kid.

Soon Shane just might just have to spot the world the 8 if he wants to get action. :D

Kidding aside, I am happy to see Shane tuned in on the tournament trail. The sky is the limit, and his future is bright. You can be sure I will be pulling for him at the upcoming WPC! :)

JAM

ironman
10-22-2007, 05:59 PM
I agree with your opinion. To compare a great pool player in the year 2007 to a great player who was on top of the world several decades ago is difficult to do, if not impossible. I have tried to express previously in this thread the reasons why I believe it is not a good comparison.

These "Who's the Best" threads will continue to pop up on this forum and entertain those who enjoy this type of dialogue. I usually do not reply to any of them. However, the comparison on this thread hits home with me, and as such, I have tried to express my stance on the subject matter as gracefully as I can.

When a player is on top of the world and winning, whether it be tournaments or the cheese in action, he is surrounded by fans, stakehorses, pool enthusiasts, and many so-called "friends." The pool public can be a fickle bunch. Today's champion may end up being tomorrow's punching bag for some.

Shane Van Boening is fortunate in that his family has a rich background in pool, as most folks know. As a young boy, I am sure he has enjoyed not only a nurturing environment, but also one which was supportive. It is so cool to see him blossoming into a thoroughbred pool champion.

In the year 2007, the tournament trail looks quite different than it did in 1977, to include the player rosters. Keith's tournament era consisted of great American champions like Sigel, Hopkins, Varner, Hall, Strickland, and Rempe, just to name a few, and according to him, he was MANY TIMES the proverbial "bride's maid," coming in second in tournaments, especially to Earl Strickland. Earl was a tournament soldier. Keith was an action man.

If you look at the U.S. Open as one measuring stick of American pool from the '70s and '80s, you will not see any players like the Efrens, Mikas, Niels, and Thorstens that you see today on the player rosters. The competitive playing field environment was quite different. AND I hasten to add that if Earl Strickland was about 20 years younger and dominated in today's pool world, I wonder if he would, indeed, snatch five U.S. Open titles in today's pool world. Not only was the equipment different, but the rules of 9-ball were as well.

In the '70s and '80s, action was prevalent. Though Keith traveled the tournament trail during these times, where he shined the brightest was during the after-hours action games. I believe these happenings were more important to him than the tournaments, and he sure did have a lot of so-called "friends" during this era.

You can compare Keith and Shane all day long. They are two different players that came from two entirely different worlds. If Shane grew up in Keith's early days environment, he'd be lucky to still be alive today.

In sum, I celebrate all pool players for everything that they have to offer. Shane is the flavor of the month today. I pity him if he has to ever read disparaging words of the times when he was on top of the world after he enters the autumn of his life. The pool culture can sometimes be cruel to its own, and how soon they forget the flavor of the month they used to celebrate from times gone by.

JAM

Some of us grew up in that era and do appreciate days past.
They are my favorites and i suppose that is a part of getting old. I have my past as well and feel very fortunate to be here. I just wish young were a little longer.

ribdoner
10-22-2007, 06:12 PM
Some of us grew up in that era and do appreciate days past.
They are my favorites and i suppose that is a part of getting old. I have my past as well and feel very fortunate to be here. I just wish young were a little longer.

YOUNG was forever when we lived it and nothing more than a blink once it's in the rear view mirror:)

Neil
10-22-2007, 06:24 PM
...............

ShootingArts
10-22-2007, 06:32 PM
YOUNG was forever when we lived it and nothing more than a blink once it's in the rear view mirror:)

From about 17 to 25 I could have gotten odds against me making it two years longer, I was burning the candle at both ends and the middle. I buried most of the the people I ran with a long time ago. I look in the mirror every morning and wonder how the hell did this happen?

Hu

From "Amanda"
I've held it all inward, God knows, I've tried,
But it's an awful awakening in a country boy's life,
To look in the mirror in total surprise.
At the hair on my shoulders and the age in my eyes.

Fatboy
10-22-2007, 07:49 PM
In terms of "habits", during the 50's and 60's it was considered good to smoke and drink. The tobacco companies really had it easy with their tv advertising as well as the liquor companies. No government health restrictions whatsoever. Everyone smoked on tv even Lucy and Ricky.
Today sports people have dieticians, psychologists, and governing boards telling them whats good for the athlete. And so many warning labels. Too bad Efren didnt get the kind of info before he developed emphysyma.
I'm just saying Keith and his kind come from another era and cant be judged by today's standards. Shane seems to come from a good family with certain comforts. Anyone during my time with a pool table in his basement rec room was considered some kind of alien. We had a quonset hut for our house after the war. And anyone who owned their own home must have got it on the GI bill.
Two different times. You cant make comparisons.


i agree you cant make compairsons, its useless, however all the "good" things and warning labels seem useless as people in general these days dont seem as happy overall as they did back in the day of "habits" its either one thing or another, that will get you in the end

far as i'm concerned Bonds broke the HR record, Keith gave the world the 8 and SVB just won the Open... all different people all sucessful in their own way.

Ltldebbie
10-22-2007, 08:33 PM
i agree you cant make compairsons, its useless, however all the "good" things and warning labels seem useless as people in general these days dont seem as happy overall as they did back in the day of "habits" its either one thing or another, that will get you in the end

far as i'm concerned Bonds broke the HR record, Keith gave the world the 8 and SVB just won the Open... all different people all sucessful in their own way.

So very well said my freind...
We all had our moments of greatness,our 15 minutes of fame& I pray,that,.. that is what we are remembered for. NO LOYALTY for what we children of the 60's walked thru. Its better days and better times. Remember when....those are the lines of pool stories of which i have a few.
I have reinvented myself so many times I don't recognize myself in the mirror. I swear. I walked by a store window about 20 years ago and said who is that following me. I didn't even recognize myself. If I can only keep my mouth shut (I have never been able to disguise my voice...)

Becareful I'm that red headed grammy in the corner taken side bets. Those pool hall junkies are now grey panthers and we're back.

ironman
10-22-2007, 10:40 PM
So very well said my freind...
We all had our moments of greatness,our 15 minutes of fame& I pray,that,.. that is what we are remembered for. NO LOYALTY for what we children of the 60's walked thru. Its better days and better times. Remember when....those are the lines of pool stories of which i have a few.
I have reinvented myself so many times I don't recognize myself in the mirror. I swear. I walked by a store window about 20 years ago and said who is that following me. I didn't even recognize myself. If I can only keep my mouth shut (I have never been able to disguise my voice...)

Becareful I'm that red headed grammy in the corner taken side bets. Those pool hall junkies are now grey panthers and we're back.

Gray Panther? Sometimes I feel more like a gray Donkey in the Kentucky Derby.

jay helfert
10-23-2007, 02:51 AM
For the record, Keith McCready had more natural talent at pool than anyone I ever saw. He was truly a WUNDERKIND! Full of confidence and bravado, Keith feared no one, not even Mizerak the reigning world champion, Buddy, Sigel or anyone else for that matter. And ALL the players feared Keith! No one wanted to catch him in the draw. NO ONE!

If he could have followed the straight and narrow a little more, he would have won many more tournaments. But that is what made Keith unique. He might gamble all night and snooze his match the next day. He frequently forfeited matches, sometimes far along on the winners side. I can remember several tournaments where he forfeited an early round match and still made the final five or six players, playing on fumes at the end with no sleep whatsoever.

On second thought, not even a player like Shane would have liked playing Keith for money. Especially on a small box. When you watch a guy fire in near impossible shots and send the cue ball three rails for position, it will make you weak in the knees. And Keith could do this with regularity, and make it look like it was routine. No one I ever saw could make a harder shot look easy under pressure. Keith was the BEST pressure player who ever lived in my book! He truly did have icewater in his veins.

Even Cornbread was in awe of Keith, and he respected no one except a handful of gambling superstars like Buddy, Denny, Richie, Cole and Mataya.
Cornbread only was friendly with the true gunslingers of pool. He only liked me because I wrote an article that glorified him.

And yes, Keith could string those racks, kind of like Earl but for the cheese, not the glory. In Earl's youthful years he gave Keith a wide berth. Earl did gamble back then, but Keith gave him the "cure" one time and that was enough. When Sigel was in his prime, he ducked Keith and Larry Hubbart told Keith they weren't interested in gambling with him. I heard him say that to Keith in Las Vegas in 1979 or 80.

smashmouth
10-23-2007, 04:49 AM
this argument could go on forever and it's kind of fun, best money player vs best tourney player, this gen vs last gen, etc....

again, I personally favour the tourney players of this generation but without a doubt I'd rather watch the money players of yesteryear

freddy the beard
10-23-2007, 05:54 AM
There were only 2 guys that I was sure of that didn't care about winning a tournament, Bugs and Cornbread Red. However, late in life Red finally won a 1pkt tournament and I was amazed to discover he was happier than a punk in a navy brig. Personal pride and ego, are intrinsic requirements to become a pool champion. No one can any longer tell me official acknowledgement has no meaning, even to the hard-hearted. If you could have seen the kick the old-time hustler, Marshall Squirrel Carpenter got out of being voted into the OnePocket HOF at the honors dinner in Derby City, you would know what I mean.
One final pontification: JAM, IMHO, if you would have been with Keith in the early days he would have won a couple bushels of tournaments -- whether he wanted to or not.

the Beard

ShootingArts
10-23-2007, 06:12 AM
Don didn't really say much. I remember a full color two page ad about a horse going to stud. The whole ad was that the horse had beaten another young superhorse, Avenger M. What the ad didn't say is that they had met nine times and Avenger M had beaten the stud in the ad whose name I have long forgotten eight times.

Hu


Right, but at the end of the tournament there was Keith ready to play any champion for the dough they just won plus some. They could keep the trophy.

It reminds me of the Don Willis story where a promoter was running around asking all the players to list their accomplishments. Don, of course, did not want to do any such thing but the promoter harrangued him until he relented.

Don looked over the stack, chose the guy who listed the most accomplishments and wrote on the page "I beat him".

Also I think the proper designation is that Keith hasn't done either YET. He is still playing, remember the third place at the open a few years ago? I don't think anyone likes to face Keither in a tournament.

ironman
10-23-2007, 06:25 AM
YOUNG was forever when we lived it and nothing more than a blink once it's in the rear view mirror:)

You state it well.

ironman
10-23-2007, 06:36 AM
There was a time when Billy was considered the best 9ball player on the planet. He wasn't insulting Keith, he was paying him a compliment and just telling it like it is.

There was a day that many considered Bill the best player on the planet, period. His resume' i quite impressive.

bondsman
12-16-2007, 06:41 AM
You are correct. Tracy Joe was quite the player on the bar box. :)

Here's a cute story about the two of them. A young Keith made an appointment to play the legendary Tracy Joe at a pool room that was off the beaten path.

Keith and a couple of his buddies drove out to the joint at the designated time. When they walked in, there was Tracy Joe waiting for him. The place was packed with curious onlookers wanting to sweat the match. Tracy Joe had his own fan club there in full force, too. :p

Before the first game, it was agreed that the post monies would be placed on top of the overhead light, a nickel each totalling a thousand bucks. It wasn't 10 crisp C-notes, though. Rather, it was a bunch of tens and twenties. I'm sure both players must have been playing on committee monies. ;)

Tracy Joe and Keith wasted no time and began to battle. It was like one of those neck-and-neck horse races. When one of them got close to the finish line, the other one would catch up. They were tight races. Back and forth they went until the wee hours of the morning, and then Keith caught one of those infamous gears and put it in turbocharge, defeating Tracy Joe several races.

Keith and his entourage were the strangers in town and wanted to get out of there as quick as they could with the cheese. So after the last set, they didn't want to hang around and mingle. They immediately exited the premises.

The night sky was pitch black in the parking lot. Keith and his buddies piled in their car to begin their journey back home. Within minutes it seemed, the driver of Keith's car saw headlights behind him, coming towards their car at an extremely fast pace. The driver of Keith's car figured they were going to get robbed and started to step on it, hitting speeds of close to 100 MPH. Keith said he was frightened. :eek:

Soon the car behind them made a move on this two-lane highway and pulled up right next to their car on the left. Keith and his buddies looked in horror when they saw this car full of the bar's patrons and wondered how they were going to get out of this trap. :(

The driver's side window of the other car was rolled down, and there was Tracy Joe. He had a bunch of greenbacks in one hand, pointing at it with his other hand, and screamed, "Keith, you forgot the post monies on the light."

Keith's driver pulled over to the shoulder of the road. Tracy Joe walked up to Keith's car and handed him the cash. Keith's driver was relieved, as were the rest of the occupants. On the way home, they all enjoyed a good chuckle. They were so intent on leaving, thinking they could get robbed, that they forget to grab the post on top of the light, and the would-be robbers turned out to be the good guys, only wanting to do the right thing. :o

JAM
I was in that car that night. I rode with them to pick up Keith that night. I am the one that originally reminded Tracey Joe about the incident. Joe was a great player back then and a far better human being. As far as I can tell from speaking to him he is still tops as a human being.

JAM
12-16-2007, 06:47 AM
I was in that car that night. I rode with them to pick up Keith that night. I am the one that originally reminded Tracey Joe about the incident. Joe was a great player back then and a far better human being. As far as I can tell from speaking to him he is still tops as a human being.

Hey, Bondsman, are you the gentleman I met at the Carolinas Open in Goldsboro, North Carolina, several years ago with Keith, who had just returned from a very enjoyable trip to the Philippines?

JAM

Bigjohn
12-16-2007, 08:03 AM
How would you match up Keith McCready in his prime against SVB now? Based on stories my father told me about back in the day, Keith almost never missed when he was playing well and basically torched everyone. Could one give the other any weight on a bar box or full sized table?

Which SVB are we talkin about ?... The regular one ?... Or... The one that's playin Mosconi Cup ?

hemicudas
12-16-2007, 08:08 AM
Which SVB are we talkin about ?... The regular one ?... Or... The one that's playin Mosconi Cup ?

Now ya gotta admit,,,,,,,,,,,that is a legit question. But, I still like Keith playin for the cash though not by much.

lunchmoney
12-16-2007, 09:14 AM
.

It didn't matter back then what number ball somebody got because they couldn't fade the 6's, the 7's, the 8's, the 10's, and the 12's. And I guarantee you that I'd run more packages than any living human back then.

I can personally attest to the validity of this statement. I was watching a $100.00 a stick ring game in 1979 at Greenway Billiards in Baton Rouge, LA. during the Southern Open. There were a lot of different players taking a stab at the cash at one time or another. People like Grady Mathews, Buddy Hall, Flyboy, Larry Hubbart and others. I watched Keith hit one of his gears and he put a five pack on the other four players. It took about 15 minutes total, a quick $2,000.00. It was amazing, the balls were flying. I think that Keith was 18 or 19 at the time, JAM can confirm. Then they called his name for a match and he had to leave with the run uncompleted. Keith ended up getting second in the tournament. Jerry Brock won it and Dan Louie was third. I talked with Grady about the ring game earlier this year when he was up here in Washington State and he remembered it with a big smile on his face. He said that the game went on for days non stop. When someone got busted there was always someone ready to jump in. This game took place on a 9 footer and I've never had the opportunity to watch Keith play on a bar table. This was about the same timeframe that Dan Louie was in his prime. He had recently drilled Buddy Hall on a bar table using a huge cue ball. A time when Buddy was considered, according to W. W. Woody's book, the best bar table player in the country. I would have bet that there wasn't a living human that could beat Dan with that monster cue ball. It turns out that Dan wanted the 8 if he was going to play Keith - unbelievable. (they never did play on a bar table when they were both in their prime). On a bar table, Keith was from another planet. Back then, if a question popped up on who was the best bar table player people would be trying to figure out who was second best as everyone knew who was the best. Kind of like Efren and One Pocket.

Lunchmoney

turbo billards
12-16-2007, 10:58 AM
KM and SVB are great but right now i have to give it to shane in 8 ball on the box and 9/10 ball on the big table hes playing great....... he is on cloud 9 right now and hes got more stroke than john holmes.....and lunch did we forget about Dave Matlock he was the best on the box for years and nobody would come near him with a nickle

hemicudas
12-16-2007, 12:21 PM
KM and SVB are great but right now i have to give it to shane in 8 ball on the box and 9/10 ball on the big table hes playing great....... he is on cloud 9 right now and hes got more stroke than john holmes.....and lunch did we forget about Dave Matlock he was the best on the box for years and nobody would come near him with a nickle

You could easily be right, today, turbo. But,,,,,,,,,about 1975 I was running around Jackson, MS with Buddy Hall. I had never seen Keith play at that time but had heard from all the road agents that he was unbeatable on the bar box. I just came out and asked Buddy if anyone on earth was the favorite to beat Keith on the bar table? Buddy's reply was, "No body but me. You want to stake it?" and he grinned. That, in Buddy speak, was admiting that no one could beat Keith on the bar table. I was lucky enough to later sweat Keith in action on the bar table and I watched in awe. Man, could he ginn-it.

huckster
12-17-2007, 09:20 PM
There was a day that many considered Bill the best player on the planet, period. His resume' i quite impressive.

9ball Billy was truely one of the greatest players in the world during the early 70's but grandpa's old road partner was avoided by all even past his prime Wimpy Lassiter could dab'em like no other. When it came to roll out 9ball during the 50's and early 70's no one wanted to tangle at roll out 9ball with Mr. Lassiter, after Mr Harold Worst took ill and passed. Luther was like Efren is to onepocket today. There is Efren then everybody else. Grandpa said that not many used to handicap matches like they do today, but Wimpy had to give money odds, or games to get played.