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skeeterpro
10-18-2007, 11:46 PM
Lets say you were playing league and winning your game would mean loosing a couple rounds because your opponent was establishing handicap and he/she would be receiving a higher spot. However if you purposely lost the game your opponent would be forced into a lower handicap spot and you would win the couple of rounds. What would you do? If you decided to loose the game how would you go about doing it? Would you run all your balls off the table and then shoot the cue ball in the corner for a scratch on the 8 or would you try to disguise the loss in some other way. Or would you say in the name of good sportsmanship I'll try to win my game and say the hell with the round points?

Jallan
10-19-2007, 12:54 AM
The fact that anyone would even ask this question and sound like they have an open mind about it bothers me. Handicaps are established for a reason; to keep matches as fun and as fair as possible. Dumping, though it may have its place, has no place in league. :mad:

skeeterpro
10-19-2007, 09:55 AM
The fact that anyone would even ask this question and sound like they have an open mind about it bothers me. Handicaps are established for a reason; to keep matches as fun and as fair as possible. Dumping, though it may have its place, has no place in league. :mad:

This is an open minded question which our league has to address. I'm asking for opinions and you gave yours in the last half of your post. I've heard some people answer the question as you did and I've heard others say it's smart pool and good strategy. Don't assume that I did this and was looking for approval.

BVal
10-19-2007, 10:22 AM
This is an open minded question which our league has to address. I'm asking for opinions and you gave yours in the last half of your post. I've heard some people answer the question as you did and I've heard others say it's smart pool and good strategy. Don't assume that I did this and was looking for approval.
Personally I always have and will always play to win no matter what. I have never asked myself should I LOSE (not loose) on purpose.

BVal

Danny Kuykendal
10-19-2007, 10:36 AM
Skeeterpro, Keep things above board and play your game. You'll feel better in the end and so will the people playing with you.

Danny

Danny Kuykendal
10-19-2007, 10:38 AM
Jallan, dumping never has a place, sorry.

Danny

Bastian
10-19-2007, 10:50 AM
Not usually one to play devil's advocate, but I'm curious on this topic..

If dumping one game puts him in better position to win the match, isn't that like playing a safety?

Danny Kuykendal
10-19-2007, 10:56 AM
Bastian, that's one way to look at it. What Skeeterpro was thinking of doing is dishonest to the rest of the players in the league. Everyone is on their honor to show their true speed.
I have an in house league at my room that's been operating for over 10 years. Everyone (I hope) shows their true speed. Is it really worth a few bucks to deceive everyone?

Bastian
10-19-2007, 10:59 AM
I don't understand the league rules (I don't play in one), but it seemed like this was a situation where he could lose one game then 2 games later win the whole match as a result.. so it seemed much like a safety to me.

I personally wouldn't deceive for a few bucks, or for league at all, but it seemed as though folks were coming down on him pretty hard for what seemed to be a strategic way to assure a win of the match.

BVal
10-19-2007, 11:01 AM
If what I said was coming down hard on him just blame my integrity. :)

BVal

Bastian
10-19-2007, 11:06 AM
It would seem to me, that if the league rules allow players to have this much control over another player's ranking, then the system is flawed.. but I'm sure there are a hundred other threads covering those topics. If the original poster knew it was dishonest (as only you folks in the league could attest to), then I of course would agree with you.. I was more just curious of the strategic versus unscrupulous aspects of the topic.

RRfireblade
10-19-2007, 11:24 AM
Seem like this to me. . .

If your that much stronger that you are the one with the sole choice of who wins the first match then I wouldn't be concerned about giving the opponent a bigger spot on the next set. Sounds like that is how it is supposed to be in a 'capped league.

Do you want to win easy or win even easier ?

I'll take the bigger challenge everytime . . . unless my house is on the line. ;)

Blackjack
10-19-2007, 11:49 AM
Lets say you were playing league and winning your game would mean loosing a couple rounds because your opponent was establishing handicap and he/she would be receiving a higher spot. However if you purposely lost the game your opponent would be forced into a lower handicap spot and you would win the couple of rounds. What would you do? If you decided to loose the game how would you go about doing it? Would you run all your balls off the table and then shoot the cue ball in the corner for a scratch on the 8 or would you try to disguise the loss in some other way. Or would you say in the name of good sportsmanship I'll try to win my game and say the hell with the round points?


Just the fact that you are contemplating this should make you and others realize why myself and others have no respect for the league systems. Either play to win or just stay home. Why is that so difficult for some people to comprehend?

Pushout
10-19-2007, 01:29 PM
Just the fact that you are contemplating this should make you and others realize why myself and others have no respect for the league systems. Either play to win or just stay home. Why is that so difficult for some people to comprehend?

Tap, tap, tap! Well said, David!

9ballrun
10-19-2007, 01:39 PM
I would not lose on purpose, thats just the way I am. If it meant a tougher match later I would play my best then too. One of the only ways to get better is to play stronger players and when you play someone weaker to give up weight. If I can do that and come out on top then I feel like I have accomplished something. jmo

thyme3421
10-19-2007, 02:04 PM
This is an open minded question which our league has to address. I'm asking for opinions and you gave yours in the last half of your post. I've heard some people answer the question as you did and I've heard others say it's smart pool and good strategy. Don't assume that I did this and was looking for approval.

Don't assume that I did this and was looking for approval.

enough said, stop assuming

BVal
10-19-2007, 02:08 PM
Don't assume that I did this and was looking for approval.

enough said, stop assuming
I READ and responded that I would not and never have thought about losing on purpose. Never once did I say that he had.

Thanks,

BVal

ez2h8
10-19-2007, 02:39 PM
I was in a well known league here and often was instructed by my captain to dump to keep my handicap down. The captains between teams would also negotiate ahead of time which players on both teams needed help lowering handicaps and then match up/instruct players accordingly. Especially when a bar had multiple teams, lots of shady play. The captains looked at it a strategy, helping each other out. Players went along with the program in the hopes they would get something out of it and most did. I lost alot that session per my captain but it was the most nonserious fun I had in a league. I thought it was in bad nature, but after seeing how extensive these strategies were used, I didn't care.

And when I did have to dump, I never ever ever simply ran the table and scratched on the 8. That was way too obvious. I wouldn't bring my own cues-almost ever. Would only mention that I had a simple SP on order but shipping was delayed and delayed and delayed-till playoffs. That SP was my Mottey (which I had all along) and I only came up with the story because everyone kept telling me to get better, I had to get my own cue and stop depending on a friends cue or house cue. Wouldn't chalk my tip correctly. Wouldn't use my typical stance or stroke. Would play crazy patterns. Not play safes much. I would drink alot (captain always bought), acted drunk, laugh and joke wayyyy to much to look like a serious player. Never jumped or massed. Never kicked or banked more then 1 rail. Most balls I was allowed to put together was 3. Never was allowed to give advice to fellow teammates directly. This is why it was so much fun. My logic tells me to beat my opponents quick and decisively so that when I had to do all this crazy stuff, it was actually kind of fun to see if I could trick my mind. It didn't hurt my stroke any because other nights each week, I was off somewhere playing on big tables at speed.

I remember the second week of a session. We played another team out of our bar and I was instructed to dump. The guy I was playing didn't know that, nor did he know me. I was putting on a great act, everyone was laughing, joking, having a great time on both teams and I lost. At the end of the match, the guy and his captain come up to me and said if it wasn't for me being funny, he would have hated playing pool with me because I played so poor. He continued to say playing in the league will help me learn more and even suggested I try playing some on big tables to get better faster on bar tables. Later that session, I had to play the same guy in playoffs and I had my Mottey with me, which he didn't recognize and I "found" a stroke he didn't recognize. I laid down on him a lil but won and in a fashion that made him ask my captain how much I had been practicing on those big tables. He thought I took his advice and for what he knows, I did. :P


I don't encourage dumping or sandbagging, but this was an session where it was actually a blast to do. I share these details, not to brag but perhaps to enlighten people as to some of what happens or how to catch on to the shady play.

ez

thyme3421
10-19-2007, 02:41 PM
I READ and responded that I would not and never have thought about losing on purpose. Never once did I say that he had.

Thanks,

BVal


Not you BVal... you've corrected/explained your explanation. There's other posters that indicate assumptions...
:)


By the way, regarding the original post... I personally wouldn't hold back my speed. I would play to win.
If someone else did it, and I realized it... I might mention it to them in a 1on1 bases

skeeterpro
10-19-2007, 04:00 PM
Thank you thyme3421. I'm glad somebody at least read the thread before jumping to conclusions and associating me with this. Once again for the cheap seats....this occurred in our local league. Do you disapprove or do you consider it good strategy. And by the way it was done for no other reason than to win for those of you that say you play to win.

Bob Jewett
10-19-2007, 04:12 PM
... Once again for the cheap seats....this occurred in our local league. Do you disapprove or do you consider it good strategy. And by the way it was done for no other reason than to win for those of you that say you play to win.
I think your handicap system is broken if it offers that choice to the player. There are systems that don't offer that choice or at least not such clear benefit to losing.

Maybe I've seen the wrong players, but it seems to me that quite a few league players delight in being able to work the system. Maybe they wouldn't even play if they didn't feel that had an edge from their sandbagging strategy. I think it's up to the system designer and the LO to prevent sandbagging.

PIRANHA
10-19-2007, 04:19 PM
Bump,bump Bob

Da Poet
10-19-2007, 05:50 PM
Maybe I've seen the wrong players, but it seems to me that quite a few league players delight in being able to work the system.

Yeah, it's a little silly isn't it. I haven't quite figured it out, but I think it's somewhere along the lines that some leaguers want to make believe like they're "hustlers" without getting their a$ses kicked trying it out for real.:rolleyes:

pwd72s
10-19-2007, 06:43 PM
Me? I always play the best I can...no matter how poorly it is.

barber23
10-21-2007, 06:00 PM
bump bump bump.