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View Full Version : Lag on the lag ?


RRfireblade
10-19-2007, 12:55 AM
I run into this guy every few weeks and it really bugs for some reason , I'm not even sure what the 'rule' is but . . .

On the Lag , he waits forever. Most often till after my ball is on the return. Now I find myself waiting extra long to get him to go and then it throws me off even more. Not a huge impact on the match but it really bugs me. Doesn't seem fair either.

Thoughts ?

ukpooladdict
10-19-2007, 01:23 AM
I'm not sure what the exact ruling is on the lag but on the UK pro Tour we have a rule to stop someone waiting to see where your lag is going to end up, we play that if one person lags before the other then the second lagger must of lagged by the time the first person's ball has crossed the middle pocket lines on the way back.

Franky
10-19-2007, 01:45 AM
Just out-wait him and have fun with it.

Get into your stance...wait for him to get down...move your feet and bridge around a bit...count to 10...adjust the cueball positon...get up and air-stroke a bit...get back down...line up alongside your cueball and send a practice stroke way out there Bustamante-style and leave your tip on the cloth for a while...clear your throat...etc.

Do it till he stands up. Then back away from the table, pat your face with a towel and powder your hands like Fats in the Hustler. Walk back to the table looking refreshed.

3kushn
10-19-2007, 06:45 AM
Just out-wait him and have fun with it.

Get into your stance...wait for him to get down...move your feet and bridge around a bit...count to 10...adjust the cueball positon...get up and air-stroke a bit...get back down...line up alongside your cueball and send a practice stroke way out there Bustamante-style and leave your tip on the cloth for a while...clear your throat...etc.

Do it till he stands up. Then back away from the table, pat your face with a towel and powder your hands like Fats in the Hustler. Walk back to the table looking refreshed.
Ya do a Ralph Cramden (spelling?) on the Honeymooners. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QIpnbGJJkM About 3 minutes in.

If he simply shoots after you do I'd not worry about it. If he's waiting for your ball to settle down and judging your/table speed I'd at least shame him with some wise crack comment to see if that stops it.

akaTrigger
10-19-2007, 07:04 AM
I run into this guy every few weeks and it really bugs for some reason , I'm not even sure what the 'rule' is but . . .

On the Lag , he waits forever. Most often till after my ball is on the return. Now I find myself waiting extra long to get him to go and then it throws me off even more. Not a huge impact on the match but it really bugs me. Doesn't seem fair either.

Thoughts ?

I've heard and seen a lot of things in pool, but haven't seen someone intentionally do this every time they lag. Seems really weird... and hope you find an answer here in the forums. I have a funny question though - is it working for him?

We flip coins on the couple of tours I play on. I am glad, too. One time I lagged and scratched. It was SO embarrassing! I was like, "uh, so I guess you get the break."

noRulez
10-19-2007, 07:16 AM
I've heard and seen a lot of things in pool, but haven't seen someone intentionally do this every time they lag. Seems really weird... and hope you find an answer here in the forums. I have a funny question though - is it working for him?

We flip coins on the couple of tours I play on. I am glad, too. One time I lagged and scratched. It was SO embarrassing! I was like, "uh, so I guess you get the break."

I've lagged on a table that had such bad roll-off that my ball just casually turned into the corner pocket on its way back. We're talking about a foot and a half of roll-off. That wasn't embarrassing...just pissed me off. Anyway, yeah...I'd just screw with his head and out wait him. Knowing me, I'd make a loud comment to everyone around us about it too. :D

Snapshot9
10-19-2007, 08:57 AM
Sheesh, takes 'Old School' to straighten you young whippersnappers out ...:D :D :D

If a player's ball hits the foot end rail, and the 2nd player has not started his ball, it is a do-over. Both balls must be started before a ball hits the foot end rail. Buy you books and buy you books, and you still get it wrong .... LOL :rolleyes:

akaTrigger
10-19-2007, 09:01 AM
I've lagged on a table that had such bad roll-off that my ball just casually turned into the corner pocket on its way back. We're talking about a foot and a half of roll-off. That wasn't embarrassing...just pissed me off.

I wish mine was a roll-off. :o

Njhustler1
10-19-2007, 09:01 AM
Two words, coin flip. Although he'd probabl wait until the coin hit the table to call heads or tails. Then you're back to square one.

Jude Rosenstock
10-19-2007, 09:02 AM
While I think it's silly to try and lag at the exact same moment, it is considered custom to lag approximately at the same time. However, given the choice, I'd rather be the first to lag and not the second. You're not going to gain any additional information. It won't change your "lagging strategy". If anything, by lagging first, the second person might subconsciously overhit to try and catch-up.

Regardless, freeze it to the headrail every time and nothing else matters.

Bill S
10-19-2007, 09:04 AM
I run into this guy every few weeks and it really bugs for some reason , I'm not even sure what the 'rule' is but . . .

On the Lag , he waits forever. Most often till after my ball is on the return. Now I find myself waiting extra long to get him to go and then it throws me off even more. Not a huge impact on the match but it really bugs me. Doesn't seem fair either.

Thoughts ?


In The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League rule 1.12 (Lag for Break) states that:

You lose the lag if your ball:
g. is shot after your opponent's ball contacts the foot cushion.

noRulez
10-19-2007, 09:07 AM
In The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League rule 1.12 (Lag for Break) states that:

You lose the lag if your ball:
g. is shot after your opponent's ball contacts the foot cushion.

So, what's to stop a person from slamming the ball into the head cushion before the other guy has a chance to bat an eye?

PoolBum
10-19-2007, 09:12 AM
Regardless, freeze it to the headrail every time and nothing else matters.

What if both of them follow this advice? :D

Jude Rosenstock
10-19-2007, 09:26 AM
What if both of them follow this advice? :D


Obviously this would mean the universe would cease to exist and implode right before our very eyes. Nice knowing you.

juanbond
10-19-2007, 09:35 AM
I found myself annoyed with a player doing the same sort of thing once... Then I realized that no matter how you slice it, the target is the same. If you wait for the other lag to nearly finish rolling, and lets say it was a bad lag that only made it halfway back (mid-table), so you have more leeway to win the lag...well, that seems to me it could only serve to make you slack off and be closer to coming up short, or long.

In the end, no delaying strategy for lagging has any value, IMO.

Bob Jewett
10-19-2007, 09:50 AM
... Thoughts ?
By one set of rules, a slow lag automatically loses. The proposed World Standardized Rules will make it a do-over. If a player is really obnoxious about it, the ref can call unsportsmanlike conduct. I don't think the lag is the time to seek some kind of sly advantage. As Willie Hoppe said, if you freeze the cue ball to the head rail, the worst that can happen is a tie.

DaveK
10-19-2007, 10:12 AM
So, what's to stop a person from slamming the ball into the head cushion before the other guy has a chance to bat an eye?


I like the way you think. Rep for you for understanding that rules are to be played too :D

Dave

Jude Rosenstock
10-19-2007, 10:25 AM
I like the way you think. Rep for you for understanding that rules are to be played too :D

Dave


I just had to say this - I've been playing competitive pool for years and years now. I know I've logged well over 1,000 matches in leagues and tournaments at this point. I've played in competitions with all types of players from beginners all the way to world champions and I have to say, only a handful of times could the opening break even be considered as to why I won/lost a set.

I think it's good to go over the rules and understand them but to start getting into all the what-ifs is kinda silly. I mean, anyone who tries moves during the lag is just going to look like an idiot.

RRfireblade
10-19-2007, 11:13 AM
Good thoughts there.

I agree it's mostly sillyness , it's just become a peave of mine since I know he's going to do it everytime. So now I have a hard time not watching him out of the corner of my eye instead of staying on my shot.

Hmm , what if I shoot my lag over to his side of the table before he get's his shot off ?


:D

Jude Rosenstock
10-19-2007, 11:40 AM
Good thoughts there.

I agree it's mostly sillyness , it's just become a peave of mine since I know he's going to do it everytime. So now I have a hard time not watching him out of the corner of my eye instead of staying on my shot.

Hmm , what if I shoot my lag over to his side of the table before he get's his shot off ?


:D


Actually, if someone is going to be a jerk during the lag, you should thank them for the early warning. Check all their racks. Get a ref for every close hit. Be hard-nosed like you would with anyone you think is looking for a way to cheat.

Bob Jewett
10-19-2007, 11:49 AM
... Hmm , what if I shoot my lag over to his side of the table before he get's his shot off ?
I agree with Jude -- it's priceless to get this kind of obnoxious idiot alert, but here is an extract from the current WSR:

... It is an automatic loss of the lag if:
(a) The ball crosses into the opponent's half of the table;
(b) The ball fails to contact the foot cushion;
(c) The ball drops into a pocket;
(d) The ball jumps the table;
(e) The ball touches the long cushion;
(f) The ball rests within the corner pocket and past the nose of the head
cushion, or;
(g) The ball contacts the foot rail more than once. If both players violate automatic-loss lag rules, or if the referee is unable to determine which ball is closer, the lag is a tie and is replayed.
If your tournament is not played by the WSR, you will have to read a different set of rules.

DaveK
10-19-2007, 02:02 PM
I just had to say this - I've been playing competitive pool for years and years now. I know I've logged well over 1,000 matches in leagues and tournaments at this point. I've played in competitions with all types of players from beginners all the way to world champions and I have to say, only a handful of times could the opening break even be considered as to why I won/lost a set.

I think it's good to go over the rules and understand them but to start getting into all the what-ifs is kinda silly. I mean, anyone who tries moves during the lag is just going to look like an idiot.

With all your experience it amazes me that you do not seem to understand what is meant when a comment is immediately followed by a :D And everyone knows that two slow laggers will not cause the world implode, with or without a :D

Dave, doesn't look like an idiot but knows a few

DaveK
10-19-2007, 02:12 PM
-- it's priceless to get this kind of obnoxious idiot alert, but here is an extract from the current WSR:



So Bob, how does one review and critique and improve rules if one does not look at the various interpretations and possiblilities they create ... or in your words consider the "obnoxious idiot" possibilities ?

I suppose that Billy Martin was being an obnoxious jerk when he appealed at second after restarting the game called due to the pine-tar-bat called 3rd-out-of-the-ninth .... thankfully the crew chief had done his obnoxious idiot review and wisely obtained affidavits from the original game. It's all just playing the rules, and doing so does not make one an obnoxious idiot, imo .... not playing them can make one a fool though, again imo.

Dave

Jude Rosenstock
10-19-2007, 02:21 PM
With all your experience it amazes me that you do not seem to understand what is meant when a comment is immediately followed by a :D And everyone knows that two slow laggers will not cause the world implode, with or without a :D

Dave, doesn't look like an idiot but knows a few


Ok, I didn't mean for you to think I was addressing your specific post so I apologize. My "idiot" comment was meant to be a description of the problematic laggers we are talking about, not with how to deal with them. Lastly, my implosion comment was also a joke. Should I have followed it up with a :D so you could have understood, too?

Jude Rosenstock
10-19-2007, 02:34 PM
So Bob, how does one review and critique and improve rules if one does not look at the various interpretations and possiblilities they create ... or in your words consider the "obnoxious idiot" possibilities ?

I suppose that Billy Martin was being an obnoxious jerk when he appealed at second after restarting the game called due to the pine-tar-bat called 3rd-out-of-the-ninth .... thankfully the crew chief had done his obnoxious idiot review and wisely obtained affidavits from the original game. It's all just playing the rules, and doing so does not make one an obnoxious idiot, imo .... not playing them can make one a fool though, again imo.

Dave


Don't get me wrong, I love baseball but I wouldn't want pool to look to baseball when it comes time to rulings and sportsmanship. In Billy Martin's situation, he was attempting to have a homerun overturned by citing a pinetar rule. Apparently, there wasn't a problem with the other George Brett at-bats but the moment he hits a homerun that could lead to a Royal victory, Martin objects. See, this is considered okay by baseball standards because getting it right is not as important as it is in pool. In baseball, if the first-base umpire rules a runner safe, he's safe. Nobody is going to overrule him, not even the chief-umpire even if he had a better view. The reason for this is simply because in baseball, it's more about what you can get away with than anything else.

In pool, we tend to keep a higher standard. There are plenty of players that will call fouls on themselves and will try to adhere to the rules as much as possible. In fact, there are many situations where players are obligated to call fouls on themselves and being argumentative could be grounds for banishment (especially in professional snooker).

Bob Jewett
10-19-2007, 03:25 PM
So Bob, how does one review and critique and improve rules if one does not look at the various interpretations and possiblilities they create ... or in your words consider the "obnoxious idiot" possibilities ? ...
Well, many of the rules that have crept into the current WSR got there specifically to thwart players who put a lot of effort into using and abusing the rules to try to win games -- effort that might be better spent working on weaknesses. The problem usually boils down to insufficient sportsmanship. The "late lag" rule is there because some players want to take advantage -- real or imagined -- of their opponent's lag.

The rules should try to cover things as completely as is reasonable, but one example of things the rules shouldn't try to cover is every piece of disallowed equipment.

freddy the beard
10-20-2007, 04:44 AM
For the unethically inclined AZ'rs, you may want to check out the "Gamesmanship" post on my blog, www.bankingwiththebeard.blogspot.com/ Lagging, and also flipping for the break moves are available for the slightly devious who would like to try them out on their friends.

the Beard
Don't tell 'em where you got it.

DaveK
10-20-2007, 06:38 PM
...The "late lag" rule is there because some players want to take advantage -- real or imagined -- of their opponent's lag.


And lagging quickly when playing an opponent who is slow would be the best tactic, just like the post I liked earlier. Using the rules to ones advantage is just smart competing, imo.

Dave