PDA

View Full Version : Aiming systems are OVER RATED!!!


Big C
11-29-2007, 12:38 PM
Not trying to piss on anyone's cornflakes, just trying to make a point here. There are so many posts regarding aiming systems. For the purpose of what? How in the world does anyone expect to pockets balls using some arbitrary aiming system without a fundamentally sound stroke? All these aiming systems do what they were intended and that is to give the shooter some frame of reference to help take the guess work out of the shot. I think if people focused more on their body alignment and setup before the shot, then a lot of the aiming will just take care of itself. Also, the finish position of your head, backhand and cuetip will tell you a lot about why you missed the shot.
I'm not a BCA instructor, but I did learn from one of the best. If you haven't taken a lesson from one, I highly recommend that you do. You can learn more from them in the first 15 minutes about your stroke that you can in 15 years with trial and error. Magical cues and spiders only do one thing and that's fleecing you out of your hard earned money. Ok, I'm done. Thank you for reading. Now go beat someone with a stick!:D

Simplicity is the ultimate form of sophistication.

seymore15074
11-29-2007, 12:52 PM
I'm convinced those threads are just to argue. They have absolutely no benefit to any ball making for a single person that participates.

Some just want to choose a word that was used, and "show" that they are more intelligent by saying that it doesn't mean what is being said. What is being said must be wrong because they use the word differently. English is a complex language that involves interpretation, not right and wrong...

RunoutalloverU
11-29-2007, 01:02 PM
If you have a perfect stroke but are aiming into a rail, will it help? If you have absolute dead aim, but your stroke is a little off, can you still pocket balls? Which would you rather have, be able to aim and work on a couple tweaks here and there on your stroke, or have a beautiful stroke and not be able to use it for aiming? Enough said.

Cuebacca
11-29-2007, 01:06 PM
If you have a perfect stroke but are aiming into a rail, will it help? If you have absolute dead aim, but your stroke is a little off, can you still pocket balls? Which would you rather have, be able to aim and work on a couple tweaks here and there on your stroke, or have a beautiful stroke and not be able to use it for aiming? Enough said.

If I could magically fix one or the other? I'd definitely pick the perfect stroke and mechanics. Aiming (open shots, not including kicks, banks, combos) is the easy part, IMO.

Bob Jewett
11-29-2007, 01:36 PM
... All these aiming systems do what they were intended and that is to give the shooter some frame of reference to help take the guess work out of the shot. ...
I agree with this, but then the question -- for instructors and those interested in the semi-technical aspects of the game -- becomes, which systems are worth teaching to beginners who need a framework to help organize their experience? I think such a system should be technically sound.

Sadly, few posters here have retained enough of their high school geometry and physics to make any useful analysis of the various systems. For an example, look at the recently proposed banking system which works for balls only along a single line on the table but was claimed to work for most shots. That system was so flawed that many could see it had no chance to work.

Move on to something like Hal Mix's "nearest point to the pocket / farthest point from the pocket" aiming system, and many people have a hard time seeing why it is broken -- you still get reports that it works nicely and has no apparent flaw. The reality is that if followed exactly, it will always undercut the ball.

SPINDOKTOR
11-29-2007, 02:10 PM
[QUOTE=Bob Jewett]

Sadly, few posters here have retained enough of their high school geometry and physics to make any useful analysis of the various systems. For an example, look at the recently proposed banking system which works for balls only along a single line on the table but was claimed to work for most shots. That system was so flawed that many could see it had no chance to work.



Bob, Yes a great way to get action, I couldnt wait for someone like you to say NAH... Care to see this in person? Id be happy to educate you.. for a small fee ofcourse, how about bank for bank, 100$ a ball. All I will use is My "Flawed System" shouldnt be any worries right? oh, yes, Long rail and short rail, 1 rail banks, from anywhere.


http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AAfV3BAVh3CAds3DAdA3EAsJ2FMEu2GFbw1HBrw1IIlx1JO Ay3KApp2LAxE2MAxp2NAqh2OArT2qMVOany_short_rail&ZZ3rHCUCross_side_or_corner&ZZ3sJLfCross_side_or_cross_corner&ZZ@








SPINDOKTOR

Cuebacca
11-29-2007, 02:21 PM
How would you prove that you are shooting the ball to the point that the aiming system predicts? Seems like a more fair bet is to describe your aiming system, post the money, and let an unbiased geometrician evaluate the system to determine who wins the bet. :)

Patrick Johnson
11-29-2007, 02:36 PM
All I will use is My "Flawed System"

How could anybody confirm that?

pj
chgo

SPINDOKTOR
11-29-2007, 02:49 PM
How could anybody confirm that?

pj
chgo



you cant its a hustlers bet....

Some people think they are sooooo smart, and dont realize a hustle.. Its amazing that only the SMARTEST guy really said anything negitive. :D



lol...Yes, im a bad, bad man..


SPINDOKTOR

klockdoc
11-29-2007, 02:59 PM
Now go beat someone with a stick!:D

Hmmm, Sounds like a Tom Simpson student. Good Instructor.

Bob Jewett
11-29-2007, 03:00 PM
How could anybody confirm that?

pj
chgo
Simple. Get him to commit to a particular contact point (which is clearly given by the system) and then put up two blocker balls that let the cue ball hit the object ball only on that spot. But I don't think he'll accept the action that way.

av84fun
11-29-2007, 03:10 PM
Not trying to piss on anyone's cornflakes, just trying to make a point here. There are so many posts regarding aiming systems. For the purpose of what? How in the world does anyone expect to pockets balls using some arbitrary aiming system without a fundamentally sound stroke? I think if people focused more on their body alignment and setup before the shot, then a lot of the aiming will just take care of itself. Also, the finish position of your head, backhand and cuetip will tell you a lot about why you missed the shot.
I'm not a BCA instructor, but I did learn from one of the best. If you haven't taken a lesson from one, I highly recommend that you do. You can learn more from them in the first 15 minutes about your stroke that you can in 15 years with trial and error. Magical cues and spiders only do one thing and that's fleecing you out of your hard earned money. Ok, I'm done. Thank you for reading. Now go beat someone with a stick!:D

Simplicity is the ultimate form of sophistication.

You view is a zero sum game. If it is true that a bad stroke will ruin any aiming system (which it is) then it is also true that a faulty aiming system will ruin the best stroke in the world.

And your comment that a proper body alignment and set up is a portion of the aiming process (which it is) then the WAY you allign your body and set up over the shot can't just be random or accidental. Rather, it has to be purposeful.

All these aiming systems do what they were intended and that is to give the shooter some frame of reference to help take the guess work out of the shot.

I agree with you completely and therefore, we seem to agree that an aiming system is an extremely important COMPONENT of successful shot making which can be aided or negated by other components.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
11-29-2007, 03:18 PM
If you have a perfect stroke but are aiming into a rail, will it help? If you have absolute dead aim, but your stroke is a little off, can you still pocket balls? Which would you rather have, be able to aim and work on a couple tweaks here and there on your stroke, or have a beautiful stroke and not be able to use it for aiming? Enough said.

TAP...TAP...TAP.

And I would add that a discussion of something as fundamental as aiming is highly useful EVEN IF Poster A expresses an opinion that is wrong. He/she will certainly be made aware of the error and the rest of the readership will learn from that exercise.

Forums are interesting places. Their very reason for existing is the sharing of ideas...but when ideas are shared with which some don't agree then those folks consider the ideas a waste of time...and so it goes.
(-:

av84fun
11-29-2007, 03:24 PM
[QUOTE=Bob Jewett]

Sadly, few posters here have retained enough of their high school geometry and physics to make any useful analysis of the various systems. For an example, look at the recently proposed banking system which works for balls only along a single line on the table but was claimed to work for most shots. That system was so flawed that many could see it had no chance to work.



Bob, Yes a great way to get action, I couldnt wait for someone like you to say NAH... Care to see this in person? Id be happy to educate you.. for a small fee ofcourse, how about bank for bank, 100$ a ball. All I will use is My "Flawed System" shouldnt be any worries right? oh, yes, Long rail and short rail, 1 rail banks, from anywhere.

AHAAAAA! The gauntlet is dropped. Put your slide rules and compasses away and bring cash to the table! I love it. I don't care who is right or wrong...I just like the stones!! TAP TAP

(-:

Snorks
11-29-2007, 03:27 PM
If I had one wish that could come true it would be to hit the exact point of contact that I want everytime... I guess I would take a perfect stroke and then work on my aiming.

av84fun
11-29-2007, 03:31 PM
How would you prove that you are shooting the ball to the point that the aiming system predicts? Seems like a more fair bet is to describe your aiming system, post the money, and let an unbiased geometrician evaluate the system to determine who wins the bet. :)

Geometry is only a point of departure...albeit a very important one.

But raw geometry cannot work to perfection due to influence such as rail and pocket behavior which not only can be but are different from table to table and on the SAME table on the same day...depending on changing enviromental conditions.

That is why actual experience and not rote geometry is what eventually leads to success.

Having said that, I am sure that there have been systems proposed that can be PROVEN impossible based solely on geometry under any REASONABLE set of table variables...i.e. raise one table leg up 2 inches and any "geomtery" can be made to work or fail.

Regards,
Jim

Cuebacca
11-29-2007, 03:46 PM
Geometry is only a point of departure...albeit a very important one.

But raw geometry cannot work to perfection due to influence such as rail and pocket behavior which not only can be but are different from table to table and on the SAME table on the same day...depending on changing enviromental conditions.

That is why actual experience and not rote geometry is what eventually leads to success.

Having said that, I am sure that there have been systems proposed that can be PROVEN impossible based solely on geometry under any REASONABLE set of table variables...i.e. raise one table leg up 2 inches and any "geomtery" can be made to work or fail.

Regards,
Jim

I agree. However, the systems I've seen discussed on here do not take into account the non-ideal conditions anyway. I understand that there could be systems that do, but I wasn't commenting on them. :)

The post that you quoted was referring to Spindoktor's banking system, which obviously doesn't work for most banks, ideal conditions or not.

Big C
11-29-2007, 04:04 PM
You view is a zero sum game. If it is true that a bad stroke will ruin any aiming system (which it is) then it is also true that a faulty aiming system will ruin the best stroke in the world.

Regards,
Jim
They are all faulty. So how in the world are we able to make a shot without proper mechanics and alignment systems? Some people don't need an aiming system, or a perfect stroke/mechanics. Some people play on instinct and feel rather than stopping to think about the angle, or contact point. The brain is very good at making adjustments in aiming and speed control without us really having to think about. You just have to know which half of the brain to listen to and shut the other side off. You should have already made the shot in your mind before bending to shoot. The time between is when doubt creeps in and ruins everything.
The whole purpose of practicing drills, aiming and mechanics is so you will have less distractions during your thought process while playing a match. This frees up the creative side of your brain. And when that happens, the only person that can beat you, is you.

You can run if you would just get out of your own way.

av84fun
11-29-2007, 04:53 PM
They are all faulty.

I don't think that anyone can make such a statement as a matter of fact due to A) not knowing all of them B) Not seeing any scientific studies to prove or disprove them all and C) your not being physically capable to personally test them all so precisely that your results would stand as proof.

But if you suggest that no system is PERFECT, I would agree with that for the sake of discussion but would immediately suggest that a lack of UTTER PERFECTION is no reason to entirely ignore anything having to do with pool. In other words, if your stroke is not PERFECT should you just quit the game? Or should you learn what you can learn in the attempt to achieve the best outcome possible for you?


Some people play on instinct and feel rather than stopping to think about the angle, or contact point.

That is a frequent comment in most discussions about aiming systems and I have the following replies.

1. It is likely that all players started out with SOME kind of system or technique that eventually, with massive repitition, becomes subconscious and therefore, APPARANTLY instinctive. I say "apparantly" because humans are not aware of their subconscious brain functions...which is why they are called subconscious.

When you apply the brakes on your car, the force you apply is determined essentially subconsciously. But you LEARNED how to brake due to the application of a SYSTEM described as "the application of smooth progressive force...rather than a sudden, choppy force." That is a SYSTEM that has become so ingrained that NOW you call it instinctive but you didn't have that instinct when you were scaring the hell out of your driver ed teacher! (-:

2. When you talk to great players about their aiming systems (if any) some will actually tell you about a system they in fact use...some will tell you truthfully that they aim by feel/instinct alone, regardless of whether they acquired that instinct from some system back in the day...and some will just flat out LIE because they have no interest in helping their competitors improve their games.

In one of Bob Jewett's always fascinating and instructive articles, he makes the following comment.

Almost the first thing he said was that
my bridge was wrong. It's a little unsettling
to be told that the bridges taught to
you by Hoppe and Mosconi were wrong,
but they were.

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2005-09.pdf

3. Patrick Johnson (I think...and forgive me if I am wrong) states that people often THINK they are executing a system but they actually are not due to subconscious adjustments. Could be.

Therefore, I suggest that it is virtually impossible to determine whether any given player is actually executing any given system.


The brain is very good at making adjustments in aiming and speed control without us really having to think about. You just have to know which half of the brain to listen to and shut the other side off. You should have already made the shot in your mind before bending to shoot. The time between is when doubt creeps in and ruins everything.

Outstanding advice. And relating back to my system, I can stand behind you and...assuming that you are aiming correctly by whatever means...I can tell you exactly to what tip-sized target your tip is pointing at. In addition, by observing where the line of centers points, I know from 6 feet away how to align my body and where I will point my cue. So, to that extent at least, my system conforms extremely well to your sound advice that the shot should be essentially aimed before you walk into the shot.

Thanks for your insights.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
11-29-2007, 04:55 PM
I agree. However, the systems I've seen discussed on here do not take into account the non-ideal conditions anyway. I understand that there could be systems that do, but I wasn't commenting on them. :)

Gotcha. Thanks!

Patrick Johnson
11-29-2007, 06:15 PM
raw geometry cannot work to perfection

Yes, it can, especially on questions of geometry. What geometry proves about these aiming systems has nothing to do with "real life conditions" like the effects of equipment or spin or human error or whatever. They're simple geometric facts that don't change with conditions, like this one:

"Gaps between the system's contact areas on the OB equator = the system's blind areas on the table for that shot."

pj
chgo

Ballistic Billiards
11-29-2007, 07:25 PM
now, i can't drawl real good but i'll give it a go.
contact points vs. aim lines ass-uming your aim line is that of the stick
and center hit.
http://CueTable.com/P/?@1AVxC1BXUy1CYEC1DYUw1EYVr1FUGi1GFEj2HBlk2OPPR1PT jv1UVxC2UbSN1VXUy2VbRu1WYEC2WbRa1XYUw2XbRI1YYVr2Yb Ir1aUGi2abIb1bFEj2bbIB2cBlk2cbPP2jPPR2jdfx1kTjv2kN LG2kYnazc@

you see that the cue ball/ghost ball is a perfect zero degree cut, to center pocket
you also see that when you move to a #4 cut, you're no longer aiming at the object ball


-cOOp


Not trying to piss on anyone's cornflakes, just trying to make a point here. There are so many posts regarding aiming systems. For the purpose of what? How in the world does anyone expect to pockets balls using some arbitrary aiming system without a fundamentally sound stroke? All these aiming systems do what they were intended and that is to give the shooter some frame of reference to help take the guess work out of the shot. I think if people focused more on their body alignment and setup before the shot, then a lot of the aiming will just take care of itself. Also, the finish position of your head, backhand and cuetip will tell you a lot about why you missed the shot.
I'm not a BCA instructor, but I did learn from one of the best. If you haven't taken a lesson from one, I highly recommend that you do. You can learn more from them in the first 15 minutes about your stroke that you can in 15 years with trial and error. Magical cues and spiders only do one thing and that's fleecing you out of your hard earned money. Ok, I'm done. Thank you for reading. Now go beat someone with a stick!:D

Simplicity is the ultimate form of sophistication.

av84fun
11-29-2007, 08:49 PM
Yes, it can, especially on questions of geometry. What geometry proves about these aiming systems has nothing to do with "real life conditions" like the effects of equipment or spin or human error or whatever. They're simple geometric facts that don't change with conditions, like this one:

"Gaps between the system's contact areas on the OB equator = the system's blind areas on the table for that shot."

pj
chgo

OK, while I have admitted to giving you good cause to contradict me, it seems now that you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

My comment that raw geometry can't always work to perfection stands as correct. Just one of the MANY examples of that is the "angle in=angle out" geometric theory of banking.

In fact, as you know perfectly well, the force with which you hit the ball (which is a factor unknown to any geometry text book) will RADICALLY alter the rebound angle and therefore, the statement that geometry, in and of itself, cannot work to perfection is irrefutable.

Regards,
Jim

SPINDOKTOR
11-29-2007, 09:26 PM
Simple. Get him to commit to a particular contact point (which is clearly given by the system) and then put up two blocker balls that let the cue ball hit the object ball only on that spot. But I don't think he'll accept the action that way.



Ofcourse I will, I can manipulate the aim spot comming from the pocket, thats why it works, at some point from the pocket is the correct contact point, or can't you see that? lol...


I ask for that thread to be removed because it was a bad joke, you cant disprove it, or prove it..



SPINDOKTOR