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DrCue'sProtege
12-02-2007, 10:09 AM
this has been debated on this forum before. there is even a current thread from MrPool06 regarding position play. i am hopeful some instructors like Scott Lee, Blackjack, and Pooltchr will chime in here.

when Bob Knight was coaching basketball at Indiana University he made the comment all the time that he wanted to make their practices tougher than their games. likewise, therefore, it seems logical to me that your pool practice should be tougher than what you would expect during actual play.

in other words, and some have disagreed with me on this before, when you practice position play you need to practice it from the standpoint i have to land the cue ball on a dime. or as Williebetmore said, he at times will practice landing the cue ball on a credit card.

for example, practice this shot below trying to get position on the 2-Ball in that very short landing zone between the 7 & 9-Ball. as opposed to just getting position somewhere. its very tough, but then again, as Bob Knight used to say, practice needs to be harder than actual competition.

i had an instructor/pro player tell me one time its one step at a time. first, practice landing the cue ball in a zone. then once proficient at that, practice landing it on a dime.

thoughts?

DCP

p.s. serious replies only please

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AGJv1BIdh1GAUM1IEkU4PJBy2QKnR3UGJv3UaMh3UYvf4kJ By3kDPs4kDIl4kbxC2kHlQ@

u12armresl
12-02-2007, 10:17 AM
I don't think the board can take it if you make your practices harder. The post count would go up,

why didn't I get out from here
why didn't the cue ball end up here
how should I have played that.


Please don't do it DCP, consider the holiday season and give us all a present.

alstl
12-02-2007, 10:23 AM
First of all, nice break. Secondly, I would have played it differently, high outside and try to pocket the two in the other corner pocket, leaves a greater margin of error than your shot which could easily leave you snookered.

But, I'm just a ball banger.

sde
12-02-2007, 10:24 AM
Wouldn't the CB just hit the dime and roll away? Sorry I couldn't resist.

There are times when being that accurate are necessary, but in most cases just playing to a zone is ok. Therefore, making your practice difficult would make landing in a zone that much easier.

It seems to me that playing the correct position is much better then playing the wrong position precisely.

But what do I know. lol

Steve

Blackjack
12-02-2007, 10:24 AM
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AGJv1BIdh1GAUM1IEkU4PJBy2QKnR4kJBy3kDXt3kBMm1kb OA3qWlxI_would_shoot_this_to_have_the_cue_ball_hit _the_rail_where_diagramed,_then_I_will_definitely_ get_on_the_2._Play_position_for_this_spot_on_the_r ail_instead_of_trying_to_get_perfect_on_the_2_and_ you_will_see_a_big_difference._I_don't_care_if_you _don't_want_to_shoot_it_this_way,_this_is_the_corr ect_shot.&ZZ@

Don't confuse difficulty with stupidity. Bob Knight would challenge his players mentally and physically. He would much rather they set up for an easy lay up instead of taking a more difficult jumper from somewhere that is low percentage. Capeche?

Catahula
12-02-2007, 10:24 AM
Your instructor gave you the best advice.
My advice to you...take it!

WesleyW
12-02-2007, 10:31 AM
I agree with Blackjack, that's the most correct shot.

8ballEinstein
12-02-2007, 10:39 AM
I agree with Blackjack, that's the most correct shot.

Of course this is the best shot. DCP was simply setting up a practice shot to test accuracy.

sjm
12-02-2007, 10:50 AM
One thing we all agree on is that great position play requires both a) the ability to produce the selected cue ball path off the object ball, and b) the ability to produce the right cue ball speed off that angle.

Should you practice both at once or just one at a time? Tough to say. Whether you practice both at once or one at a time, you are setting yourself up for success. Many years ago, Jose Parica commented to me that "most players don't practice their speed control nearly enough". I happen to agree.

Mark Avlon
12-02-2007, 10:51 AM
I agree that practice should be challenging, but not so difficult that it is unlikely that you can successfully accomplish the task. It is also important to know your limitations (margin of error).

Well designed progressive practice drills can provide both. They are great for improving skills and once you find the point where you're 50% successful, you will know what your chances are for success when shooting a given shot.

While practicing position on a dime provides a clear goal, whether you land on the dime or not should not be the measure of success. If it is, it will only lead to frustration. Instead, you should use this type of drill to determine you margin of error. You can then practice to reduce the margin of error.

Practice should be structured and goal oriented. Goals should be Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, and Timely (SMART). For example, "My goal is to develop the skills to stop the cue ball within the width of a ball in 1 month." You need to also identify what might keep you from attaining your goal. Do you know what must happen to cause the cue ball to stop? Are you mechanics accurate and consistent enough? Is your speed control accurate and consistent enough? If an answer is no, then you have to work on that piece of the puzzle in order to reach your goal.

DrCue'sProtege
12-02-2007, 10:55 AM
Of course this is the best shot. DCP was simply setting up a practice shot to test accuracy.

Amen to that Einstein. those that are talking about playing the 2-Ball in the other corner pocket are simply missing the point, and defeating the purpose of this drill.

i was hoping the more knowledgeable posters on here would realize that, and would offer thoughts on trying to get that dime/credit card accuracy at Point A.

DCP

Blackjack
12-02-2007, 11:00 AM
Amen to that Einstein. those that are talking about playing the 2-Ball in the other corner pocket are simply missing the point, and defeating the purpose of this drill.

i was hoping the more knowledgeable posters on here would realize that, and would offer thoughts on trying to get that dime/credit card accuracy at Point A.

DCP

:rolleyes:
and my point is that you are practicing the WRONG position pattern - and you will play the way that you practice. Back on ignore - good luck.

CaptiveBred
12-02-2007, 12:28 PM
A while back, I started choosing the more difficult path when I practiced. Usually there is two ways to get to the same spot. I found that practicing the hard way worked wonders on my 9 ball game... As you know, run out 9 ball requires you to be able to get the CB to any spot on the table from anywhere... If you just stick to the safest shots, you will never be a rack runner...

I guess it just forced me to practice paths I was weak at... But it worked for me...



As far as dime position, that is to high of a goal. Nobody is that good and nobody will ever be... Sure, there are shots where you can do it but I doubt there has ever been a rack run where the CB landed on a dime for every shot /shrug

I'd shoot for areas to land in with emphasis on taking advantage of margin of error. Example, hit the extra rail to help control speed or do not cross the line but instead, roll away from it or slowly into it.

Stopping on a dime would be nice but the real goal is to stay in line. As long as you are in line, and you are a good shot maker, you can runout from anywhere on the table...

poolhustler
12-03-2007, 12:18 AM
DCP, Mike, Travis,

To expound on your theory that you should make your practice harder than your actual game situtation.

My advice to you is this......

Put the 7 and the 9 closer together so that the cue ball just won't fit in between them. Then shoot the 1 ball like you describe and get position behind them. Practice jumping over them and pocket the 2 ball.

Russ....

SPINDOKTOR
12-03-2007, 01:11 AM
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ASIy2BQVK2CHWY2DTmv4PFqT4QerO1RfiW2VQVK2VcAo2Vb jn2VcQm2VcQl2VdGj2Vdfg2Vcxk2VdGh2Vcxm2VcaA4lerO2lN ka2lTGk4lAfj4lbXa2lNcP1mfiW2mNrh2mPwk1mWsE1mbyU2mN Kn2qAKWfor_any_shot_you_must_visualize_the_shot_"window"_and_determine_where_you_need_to_be_not_only_to_po cket_the_ball,_but_from_where_would_give_you_the_b est_oportunity_to_get_shape_on_the_next_shot.__&ZZ@

This is why BlackJack is right, you never want to be in the narrow part of any zone, if you visualize the zone for the shot at the begining of this thread, for the money Im with BlackJack..


SPINDOKTOR

DrCue'sProtege
12-03-2007, 05:17 AM
This is why BlackJack is right, you never want to be in the narrow part of any zone, if you visualize the zone for the shot at the begining of this thread, for the money Im with BlackJack..

SPINDOKTOR

but you need to practice as if you have to get into those narrow dime/credit card type zones. you people are talking as if landing the cue ball within about a foot or so of the landing zone is acceptable. granted, at times it is. but, once again, it seems absolutely logical to me that you want to practice putting the cue ball on the EXACT spot - not just somewhere near that spot.

DCP

SPINDOKTOR
12-03-2007, 05:58 AM
but you need to practice as if you have to get into those narrow dime/credit card type zones. you people are talking as if landing the cue ball within about a foot or so of the landing zone is acceptable. granted, at times it is. but, once again, it seems absolutely logical to me that you want to practice putting the cue ball on the EXACT spot - not just somewhere near that spot.

DCP



DCP, Exercises and the ability to read the table should be your personal goals right now. trying to pin point on a dime is good, but do yourself a favor and realize the shot Zones and practice this first. you will likely run more racks with zones than narrow pin point position shots, your setting yourself up for failer. imho.. Do whatever you want, make the game as hard as you want, you dont have to take my advice or anyone elses.. its up to you ultimately, you can trust that I will not send you in the wrong direction.. I wouldnt do that.

If I had to elvaute your game from just what Ive read on here, and im going to be truthful, I think if you get just a hair out of position you get tense. this leads to choking and missed shots. At times it is the smartest of moves to take a longer shot, than to play pin point position. with time as you get better so does your position, and in a sense the game then becomes easier and you start running out from everywhere. The ability to pocket the tougher shots is still a must, and imho needs to be the main focous of a player . I think you'll find by using a wider margin for error on positional shots your game will indeed go up. WHY? you'll have more oportunites to make a ball.. make sense?


SPINDOKTOR

DrCue'sProtege
12-03-2007, 06:16 AM
along these lines, one of the things Diana Minor had me work on regarding position play was this concept of landing in the "Zone" and "Getting on the right side of the object ball" within that zone.

she taped off the table in eight (8) sections as per the diagram below. object balls 1 through 8 represent those eight landing zones. and she told me to work on landing the cue ball within that zone, and not to worry too much about pin point accuracy. i believe she felt that, for the most part, if you land within the zone you will have a shot as well as a way to get position on the next ball.

i've taped the table off like this before and practiced shots and racks, and getting position. this helps, but i also believe to play top notch 9-Ball you need to make those zones smaller.

DCP

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AOJB4BOqH3COmj4DOmm2EPLs1FNwu2GOyN1HORO2ObXT4PA Wc3QbUC3RaiY2jbXT1jdDV4kAWc1kAWszb3lbUC1ldYA3maiY4 meqe4meqe@

predator
12-03-2007, 06:19 AM
you people are talking as if landing the cue ball within about a foot or so of the landing zone is acceptable. granted, at times it is. but, once again, it seems absolutely logical to me that you want to practice putting the cue ball on the EXACT spot - not just somewhere near that spot.

Nope, you missed it again. The guys here have given you a CORRECT shot to play. Just choosing the correct shot to play is already half job done. Correct thinking is also a part of position play. It took me a few years to understand that.

Yes, sometimes position zones are extremely narrow. Yes, you can setup specific drills and try and go for them. You can try 15ball rotation too.

But in an actual game, not even Efren will go for position routes where there's too much risk of getting into trouble...i.e. snookering yourself, running into other balls, scratching...etc. There has to be some kind of insurrance policy with every shot you play.

Nobody can put the cueball exactly on a specific spot with any regularity. All of the pro's play smart position zones with insurrance policy.

DrCue'sProtege
12-03-2007, 06:46 AM
Nope, you missed it again. The guys here have given you a CORRECT shot to play. Just choosing the correct shot to play is already half job done. Correct thinking is also a part of position play. It took me a few years to understand that.

Yes, sometimes position zones are extremely narrow. Yes, you can setup specific drills and try and go for them. You can try 15ball rotation too.

But in an actual game, not even Efren will go for position routes where there's too much risk of getting into trouble...i.e. snookering yourself, running into other balls, scratching...etc. There has to be some kind of insurrance policy with every shot you play.

Nobody can put the cueball exactly on a specific spot with any regularity. All of the pro's play smart position zones with insurrance policy.

i think everybody else is missing the point. on any shot - i repeat - on ANY SHOT you have to put the cue ball somewhere. and if its the ABSOLUTE CORRECT shot to play you still want to be accurate with the cue ball!

so, therefore, you should practice putting the cue ball on a dime/credit card when you shoot that ABSOLUTE BEST/CORRECT shot - not just landing it somewhere near it.

as you say, sometimes the Best shot is the Only shot, and the landing zone might be narrow. thats why you need to practice pin point cue ball control.

yes, knowing what shot is the BEST shot is vitally important. but you need to practice pin point cue ball control on those shots also. i cant make it any more plain and simple than that.

DCP

klockdoc
12-03-2007, 07:26 AM
I agree that practice should be challenging, but not so difficult that it is unlikely that you can successfully accomplish the task. It is also important to know your limitations (margin of error).

Well designed progressive practice drills can provide both. They are great for improving skills and once you find the point where you're 50% successful, you will know what your chances are for success when shooting a given shot.

While practicing position on a dime provides a clear goal, whether you land on the dime or not should not be the measure of success. If it is, it will only lead to frustration. Instead, you should use this type of drill to determine you margin of error. You can then practice to reduce the margin of error.

Practice should be structured and goal oriented. Goals should be Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, and Timely (SMART). For example, "My goal is to develop the skills to stop the cue ball within the width of a ball in 1 month." You need to also identify what might keep you from attaining your goal. Do you know what must happen to cause the cue ball to stop? Are you mechanics accurate and consistent enough? Is your speed control accurate and consistent enough? If an answer is no, then you have to work on that piece of the puzzle in order to reach your goal.

I agree with Mark. Trying to stop "on a dime" is a good practice theory, but, should not be a situation whereas you frustrate yourself while trying to get the perfect position on a shot.

Making your position Attainable and Realistic is the key. Also, trying other position routes is a good idea. But, put that "other" route within a logical thought process.

When trying other position routes to get into tighter areas, pick a shot that brings you into the position zone instead of across it. See the diagram below.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AGJv1BIdh1GAUM1IEkU4PJBy2QKnR3UGJv3UaMh3UYvf4kJ By3kDXn3kFdi3kbNc2kKfR@

If you make logical route choices when choosing these "other" routes, it will not only improve your position play, but, give you a goal that can be achieved.

DrCue'sProtege
12-03-2007, 08:37 AM
Klockdoc,
thats a good shot to practice. nothing wrong with practicing that shot. but the shot i diagrammed in the initial post needs to be practiced too. like i've repeatedly said, you need to practice all shots with the attitude that you have to have pinpoint dime/credit card cue ball control.

i remember at the BCA tournament in 2001, upstairs at the Penthouse of the Riviera. Steve Tipton made a comment to Loree Jon Jones about a Japanese player (forget his name) along these lines:

"That Fujiyama has the usual attitude that all Asian players have regarding cue ball control. If he doesnt stop it on a dime he is upset with himself."

DCP

Williebetmore
12-03-2007, 09:01 AM
i had an instructor/pro player tell me one time its one step at a time. first, practice landing the cue ball in a zone. then once proficient at that, practice landing it on a dime.

thoughts?



DCP,
I'm going to have to say that a lot of this issue depends on how good you want to become. For 9-ball and bar table pool, wide area position may be adequate to become quite a good player. For straight pool, onepocket, or play at a professional level; then ability to play pinpoint position is a MUST.

I would say that your quote above is almost the reverse of the way my professional friends play. On every shot they pick a pinpoint area (smaller than a dime, basically a chalk mark on the cloth) for the cue ball to find; then ask themselves should they err on the side of missing the spot long or short; or should they adjust the target to put it further out into the large area of the wedge shaped zone. You can have it both ways; but I definitely agree with you on the need to develop the ability to hit the small target. A player who can do this has the definite edge over one who cannot; no matter the game.

In addition, the ability to hit this small target in practice is very different from the ability to hit it in competition (much easier in practice without the burden of excessive adrenaline and pressure).

In my opinion, one of the best ways to develop this ability is competitive straight pool (much more fun than drills).

SPINDOKTOR
12-03-2007, 09:21 AM
Play zones, until you have an understanding of english, speed, and shot making, trying to play pin point acurate position for a lower level player is wrong. Great if they can do it, but dont require them to get onto a credit card on every positional shot, all your teaching is frustration. Didnt I say that already?


SPINDOKTOR

DrCue'sProtege
12-03-2007, 09:41 AM
those are good points Spindoktor.

i dont normally get frustrated/mad/upset when i miss position on those tight dime/credit card type of position drills that i run. i do, however, get a little ticked when i miss them by a foot or so, or when i actually miss the shot.

saturday afternoon i practiced this shot a little bit, and was consistently getting close to the zones at Position A for the 2-Ball and Position B for the 3-Ball.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AVnX1BHnV1CBTf2GKyd1HCHA2IEdP3PBnL2QJRC2RPWQ3UV nX3UcKB3kBnL3kTrg3kbFV4kDYd4kbPn2kICo2kIKq4uAAK@

Williebetmore
12-03-2007, 09:41 AM
Play zones, until you have an understanding of english, speed, and shot making, trying to play pin point acurate position for a lower level player is wrong. Great if they can do it, but dont require them to get onto a credit card on every positional shot, all your teaching is frustration. Didnt I say that already?


SPINDOKTOR

Dok,
I guess it must depend on the student. I think the business card trick was shown to me in my very first lesson from a top pro player. No one hits the card every time, and no one should be frustrated by the attempts. Attempting it, though, is a great way to develop speed and directional control. It also is one way that the student will learn that there is a tremendous level of precision required to play at a high level - a level of precision that is hidden from many (even good amateur players). If you don't know it exists, then you won't know that you need to achieve it.

I will agree that frustration is bad; but one who becomes frustrated by failing to achieve perfection is a poor student. One who becomes challenged by failing to achieve perfection will be an excellent student.

P.S. - DCP is definitely ready to learn how to play top level pool. Otherwise he wouldn't be wasting all this time here with the rest of us.

SPINDOKTOR
12-03-2007, 10:22 AM
Dok,
I guess it must depend on the student. I think the business card trick was shown to me in my very first lesson from a top pro player. No one hits the card every time, and no one should be frustrated by the attempts. Attempting it, though, is a great way to develop speed and directional control. It also is one way that the student will learn that there is a tremendous level of precision required to play at a high level - a level of precision that is hidden from many (even good amateur players). If you don't know it exists, then you won't know that you need to achieve it.

I will agree that frustration is bad; but one who becomes frustrated by failing to achieve perfection is a poor student. One who becomes challenged by failing to achieve perfection will be an excellent student.

P.S. - DCP is definitely ready to learn how to play top level pool. Otherwise he wouldn't be wasting all this time here with the rest of us.


If he has progressed and has a basic understanding of the game, I agree with you. I dont know his speed, I can only speculate.. If he is ready to take the next step, he needs to do what I was telling him before, find a sparring partener instead of doing drills all the time.. a match is better than any practice IMHO.


I often go to the hall and just banging balls around for awhile, when I have noone to play, anyone watching me would think I was terrible.. The truth is I get so board, I hate trying to practice, Id rather play unless there is a challenge..

When I learned the game I had access to a 5x10, and thats where I learned to pocket. we never used snooker balls, we always use regulation size 2 1/4 I believe. This was a challenge, so I know its important to challenge a player to keep the intrest up, and I suggest If you want to play proffesionaly buy yourself a 5x10. AND DO NOT CHANGE THE RAILS. you'll be glad you did the first tournament you win. there is your challenge, and if you dont want one, buy me one, I'll play on it daily.



SPINDOKTOR

Fool 4 Pool
12-03-2007, 10:45 AM
DCP, a just a few thoughs to share.
Practice....
should be challenging, but enjoyable.
needs to be structured so that you can measure your progress.
should center on reinforcing good habits and discarding bad habits.
should challenge your current level of play, but not overpower it.

I'm not sure how practice can every be harder than match time, since you don't have all the pressure during practice. However, if you can land on a credit card or something smaller with frequency, then you should be practicing landing on a dime. If you cannot yet land on a sheet of paper with frequency, you shouldn't be practicing landing on something smaller.
Have fun.
F4P

steev
12-03-2007, 10:51 AM
...I've practiced position like this using Target Pool. It's basically a target (and a half-target for near rails) and a book full of shots broken into 10-shot drills. The targets are pretty big, but have scoring rings.

The drills included cover a LOT (most!) of possible situations in terms of position play. The scoring gives you better feedback on how your practice is going.

No, I don't know where to buy Target Pool.

-s

edit: seeing fool4pool's post above, I'd like to add, target pool meets all four of his guidelines :)

edit edit: http://cgi.ebay.com/Target-Pool-by-Kim-Davenport_W0QQitemZ260189504623QQihZ016QQcategoryZ 21212QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

poolchic
12-03-2007, 10:54 AM
I would have taken it 1 rail straight up and down, then cut the 2 in the corner playing the 7 in the same corner and the 9 in the opposite corner...using the least rails possible...

Fool 4 Pool
12-03-2007, 11:01 AM
...I've practiced position like this using Target Pool. It's basically a target (and a half-target for near rails) and a book full of shots broken into 10-shot drills. The targets are pretty big, but have scoring rings.

The drills included cover a LOT (most!) of possible situations in terms of position play. The scoring gives you better feedback on how your practice is going.

No, I don't know where to buy Target Pool.

-s

edit: seeing fool4pool's post above, I'd like to add, target pool meets all four of his guidelines :)

edit edit: http://cgi.ebay.com/Target-Pool-by-Kim-Davenport_W0QQitemZ260189504623QQihZ016QQcategoryZ 21212QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

...for having productive practice sessions. I hope I don't have to play you anytime soon!:)

Patrick Johnson
12-03-2007, 11:10 AM
There's no need to abandon smart position play in order to practice pinpoint position accuracy - practice both at the same time by aiming for a specific pinpoint spot within the "smart zone". This is a well known and often recommended practice principle.

pj
chgo

supergreenman
12-03-2007, 11:28 AM
i think everybody else is missing the point. on any shot - i repeat - on ANY SHOT you have to put the cue ball somewhere. and if its the ABSOLUTE CORRECT shot to play you still want to be accurate with the cue ball!

so, therefore, you should practice putting the cue ball on a dime/credit card when you shoot that ABSOLUTE BEST/CORRECT shot - not just landing it somewhere near it.

as you say, sometimes the Best shot is the Only shot, and the landing zone might be narrow. thats why you need to practice pin point cue ball control.

yes, knowing what shot is the BEST shot is vitally important. but you need to practice pin point cue ball control on those shots also. i cant make it any more plain and simple than that.

DCP

I think you're missing the point. If you play the proper patterns the chances you'll need pinpoint CB placement are minimal.

If you play the wrong patterns and play for shape where you only have a narrow window to hit your object ball, my bet is that you're going to miss it no matter how much you practice to put the ball on a dime.

DrCue'sProtege
12-03-2007, 11:30 AM
DCP is definitely ready to learn how to play top level pool. Otherwise he wouldn't be wasting all this time here with the rest of us.

thanks for the kind words Willie. so very true. just wish i could nudge the game up a notch or two. doubt i will ever get there though. but i am going to keep trying. trying by working on all those methods that Tom Rossman, Diana Minor, Mark Wilson, and Scott Lee have shown me over the years.

DCP

DrCue'sProtege
12-03-2007, 11:34 AM
I think you're missing the point. If you play the proper patterns the chances you'll need pinpoint CB placement are minimal.

If you play the wrong patterns and play for shape where you only have a narrow window to hit your object ball, my bet is that you're going to miss it no matter how much you practice to put the ball on a dime.

nope.

once again, people fail to realize what i am saying. doesnt it make sense that everybody that plays the game wants to get optimal cue ball position on EACH AND EVERY SHOT THEY TAKE - PERIOD!!!

EVEN IF YOU PLAY THE PROPER PATTERN AND TAKE THE CORRECT SHOT - DONT YOU WANT TO GET PERFECT PINPOINT POSITION?

geez folks, dont you? even if the position zone is somewhat big, dont you want to get the optimal position in that zone???

DCP

Williebetmore
12-03-2007, 11:51 AM
geez folks, dont you? even if the position zone is somewhat big, dont you want to get the optimal position in that zone???

DCP

The first thing straight-poolers learn in their struggle to reduce risk; is that you don't "want an angle" on every shot; it's that you want the "perfect angle" on every shot - it markedly reduces your risk. The area of position for the perfect angle is usually fairly small; while the acceptable area is fairly big. The difference between the 2 can mean the difference between being able to use pocket speed or having to pound the ball (or conversely having to let whitey fly because you got too much angle).

To avoid putting pressure on your shotmaking; it is best to get that perfect angle. If you are not even trying for it (or even looking to see what it would be), you are missing out on a vital game improvement tool.

P.S. - it is easy to define the perfect angle; it is the angle that maximizes your chances of pocketing the ball while allowing you the minimum force necessary to achieve position on the next ball.

P.P.S. - I have been working on this for a couple of years and I can tell you that just looking to see what the perfect angle would be is a GREAT tool for improving. Often the perfect angle is just as easy to obtain as "any old angle"; but if you don't calculate it, and shoot for it you will just have to accept the less than perfect alternative. One of my instructor's just calls it mental laziness to not even look for the perfect angle. It costs nothing.

Mark Avlon
12-03-2007, 05:32 PM
EVEN IF YOU PLAY THE PROPER PATTERN AND TAKE THE CORRECT SHOT - DONT YOU WANT TO GET PERFECT PINPOINT POSITION?


Yes. The target should be a specific spot with the goal of landing on it. To do otherwise reinforces sloppy habits that will cost you. The spot you choose should allow you the largest margin of error because your accuracy and consistency has a margin of error. Your target should have a larger margin of error that you to ensure success.

How long or how many tries did it take you to become somewhat consistent in landing in zone for the 2 and then the 3? In a game situation, if the landing zone was another diamond away, would you be able to make it on your only try? I doubt it. Your shot is simply a speed control shot, and I think it's an inefficient way to improve your skills and success in a game.

DrCue'sProtege
12-04-2007, 01:00 PM
How long or how many tries did it take you to become somewhat consistent in landing in zone for the 2 and then the 3? In a game situation, if the landing zone was another diamond away, would you be able to make it on your only try? I doubt it. Your shot is simply a speed control shot, and I think it's an inefficient way to improve your skills and success in a game.

with that small of a landing zone i dont get exactly where i want too often. and i dont practice this EXACT shot every night, but rather similar type shots. the next time i practice this shot the landing zone might be a few inches difference, one way or another.

and yes, it is pretty much a speed control shot. but isnt speed control EXTREMELY important to having pinpoint dime/credit card control?

if its an inefficient way to improve skills, can you offer an alternative? i'd certainly be willing to see what you have to offer here.

DCP

klockdoc
12-04-2007, 01:43 PM
if its an inefficient way to improve skills, can you offer an alternative? i'd certainly be willing to see what you have to offer here.

DCP
Yeah, practice position areas that I had suggested earlier. This one is difficult also, but could of practical use in a game. Your pinpoint attempts could be utilized trying to hit the 1st diamond below the side in order to come up to the correct window.

Blackjack's suggestion is by far the best one for this situation.

I do not understand why you would even attempt practicing position on a shot
that you probably would never, or, should never be attempted in a game..:confused:

Are you playing for "show" or for the dough"..:confused:

td873
12-04-2007, 02:07 PM
in other words, and some have disagreed with me on this before, when you practice position play you need to practice it from the standpoint i have to land the cue ball on a dime. or as Williebetmore said, he at times will practice landing the cue ball on a credit card.

thoughts?

You have to be ready for this type of practice. If you are a good shot maker, but you are only running 1 rack a day, or every other day, it is probably your shot selection/pattern play that is the problem. I wouldn't mess with "on a dime" until I fixed "in my head."

There are levels to progression, and IMO, practicing getting the cue ball to stop in on a 1/2" circle on the table is way WAY down the list. When you are only missing a dozen or so balls every session (e.g, 20 balls a day, 10 balls for a few hours, 2-3 balls an hour), this might be something to work on. If you miss 10 balls an hour, well, you don't need to work on cue ball control. I would recommend working on shotmaking, patterns, and concentration first.

Put another way, it IS a good tool to have, but other tools should come first.

-td

td873
12-04-2007, 02:13 PM
EVEN IF YOU PLAY THE PROPER PATTERN AND TAKE THE CORRECT SHOT - DONT YOU WANT TO GET PERFECT PINPOINT POSITION?
No.

geez folks, dont you? even if the position zone is somewhat big, dont you want to get the optimal position in that zone???
No.

Maybe that's why you are having such a hard time with this game. It isn't about perfection, it's about angles. And once you have an angle, it's about options. And once you have the right option, it's about execution.

AKA: Don't let "perfection" be the enemy of "good enough."

she taped off the table in eight (8) sections as per the diagram below. [...] she told me to work on landing the cue ball within that zone, and not to worry too much about pin point accuracy.
I take this statement to mean the instructor evaluated your play and believed this was the most helpful for you. No offense to you, but this is indicative of your level and what the instructor believed you needed in order to improve. Put another way, you needed to work on zone position. The next step in the progression is to recognize which zone you need. Then executing to get to that zone. And finally you could work on pin-point accuracy within the zone. There are a few levels in there...

-td

Black-Balled
12-04-2007, 02:15 PM
thoughts?

DCP

p.s. serious replies only please

Are you serious? I will take the 7 and play this Bobby Knight some.

td873
12-04-2007, 02:25 PM
but, once again, it seems absolutely logical to me that you want to practice putting the cue ball on the EXACT spot - not just somewhere near that spot.
My last comment on your original post and follow ups (to date).

I think you fail to recognize that exact spot cue ball control is a direct function of exceptional ball pocketing. You CANNOT control the cue ball to a pinpoint unless you are superb at pocketing. As I alluded to above, beginners and intermediates will NOT be able to hone their pinpoint accuracy until they understand and can execute exceptional ball pocketing.

-td

DrCue'sProtege
12-04-2007, 03:15 PM
No.

No.

Maybe that's why you are having such a hard time with this game. It isn't about perfection, it's about angles. And once you have an angle, it's about options. And once you have the right option, it's about execution.

AKA: Don't let "perfection" be the enemy of "good enough."


I take this statement to mean the instructor evaluated your play and believed this was the most helpful for you. No offense to you, but this is indicative of your level and what the instructor believed you needed in order to improve. Put another way, you needed to work on zone position. The next step in the progression is to recognize which zone you need. Then executing to get to that zone. And finally you could work on pin-point accuracy within the zone. There are a few levels in there...

-td

wow.........now that i teetotally 100% disagree with. you DO NOT want to get pinpoint position when you play??? you say you want angles, but to get the perfect angle you need pinpoint position play!!!

sorry, but thats the very first time i have ever heard anyone say something like that. i dont know about you, but i would absolutely LUV to have pinpoint position play. but if you dont want that, its up to you.

and the "Taping Of the Table" by Diana Minor occurred several years ago. sorry, guess i should have made that clear.

DCP

ShootingArts
12-04-2007, 06:44 PM
TD is right as usual but you can't understand what he is saying because you are in too big of a hurry to express your own opinion. Taking it from the top of the thread, spend a little practice time working on super hard stuff, spend most of your practice time working on what you will see in a game over 90% of the time. Amazing the stupid mistakes anyone will make if they don't practice realistically.

On to pinpoint perfect leave, it is far more important to shoot for the leave with the most chance of success. Approach from the angle that gives the biggest margin for error whenever possible. Often that means taking a somewhat harder shot than playing for better shape that will leave you without a shot if the leave isn't perfect.

If you have the DVD of John Schmidt's 245 run, watch it and listen to how many times he makes a "mistake" in that run. If you don't have it, buy it. John Schmidt plays excellent shape but I think he would be the first to tell you that he doesn't stop the cue ball in the area of a dime every time, or even a credit card. If you play smart shape it doesn't matter because you have a bail out option if you miss perfect shape.

Hu


wow.........now that i teetotally 100% disagree with. you DO NOT want to get pinpoint position when you play??? you say you want angles, but to get the perfect angle you need pinpoint position play!!!

sorry, but thats the very first time i have ever heard anyone say something like that. i dont know about you, but i would absolutely LUV to have pinpoint position play. but if you dont want that, its up to you.

and the "Taping Of the Table" by Diana Minor occurred several years ago. sorry, guess i should have made that clear.

DCP

steev
12-04-2007, 07:03 PM
Amazing the stupid mistakes anyone will make if they don't practice realistically.Hu

holy crap is this true. in tournaments and leagues some of these guys (and girls) are trying so hard to play perfect, they don't see much. you'll see them taking thin cuts or tough combination shots over STRAIGHT IN balls! and don't get me started on position (or lack of it).

thanks for the explanation, hu. i been trying to understand some people's choices, and your statement sums it up, i think.

+1

-s

ShootingArts
12-04-2007, 07:30 PM
BlackJack actually said the same thing earlier in this thread when he said we play how we practice, I just worded it a bit differently.

Thanks for the rep!

Hu


holy crap is this true. in tournaments and leagues some of these guys (and girls) are trying so hard to play perfect, they don't see much. you'll see them taking thin cuts or tough combination shots over STRAIGHT IN balls! and don't get me started on position (or lack of it).

thanks for the explanation, hu. i been trying to understand some people's choices, and your statement sums it up, i think.

+1

-s

poolplayer2093
12-04-2007, 08:03 PM
First of all, nice break. Secondly, I would have played it differently, high outside and try to pocket the two in the other corner pocket, leaves a greater margin of error than your shot which could easily leave you snookered.

But, I'm just a ball banger.
What he said! why make things so hard on yourself

td873
12-04-2007, 08:08 PM
wow.........now that i teetotally 100% disagree with. you DO NOT want to get pinpoint position when you play??? sorry, but thats the very first time i have ever heard anyone say something like that.
DCP
You understand me correctly. Also, I agree that you probably never heard this, but not from lack of it being stated to you.

i dont know about you, but i would absolutely LUV to have pinpoint position play. but if you dont want that, its up to you.
DCP
I don't want it, or need it. I would guess that the majority of the amateur pool world is in the same boat.

You don't just get to have anything in this game. You have to earn it. And these things take time. I doubt that the majority of the pool world will ever be to the point that they need pinpoint play AND are willing to spend the time and effort needed to achieve it. And, sadly, most people are not gifted with the ability to even achieve it.

With years of playing, you should have already determined what level you want to play at and compared it to the level that you are ABLE to play at. I would bet these two do not overlap (or else you wouldn't feel the need to search for answers here...) I suggest you take a step back and evaluate your play (honestly) and then come to grips with the reality of it. Sometimes it's a hard pill to swallow, but you'll enjoy the game so much more. Put another way, only a handful have the talent to be a pro.


and the "Taping Of the Table" by Diana Minor occurred several years ago. sorry, guess i should have made that clear.
It was clear that this taping was a while ago. I understood your question to mean that this was something you still deal with, i.e., after years have passed you are still working on this item. I think I get it.

-td