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View Full Version : Jerry Forsyth's Essay on 9 and 10 ball


RunoutalloverU
12-03-2007, 06:25 PM
It has been a long time comming, that someone with prestige and knowledge summed up in a succinct manner the problems with 9-ball. Well done Jerry. The soft break isn't the problem, the pros ingenuity isn't the problem, the game itself is the problem. I know change is slow in sports, e.g. instant replay, and pool is no different. But when you need to get things right, just like in other sports....get it right, no matter what it takes. 9-ball is not the NL hold em' that poker has, it is not the cadilliac of pool. And I would like to thank Jerry for making that crystal clear, for everyone to see.

jeffwinters
12-03-2007, 06:41 PM
any link on his essay?

Cuebacca
12-03-2007, 06:41 PM
The essay is on the front page right now, or here:

http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.cfm?storynum=4909

liljon
12-03-2007, 07:05 PM
You know, about 3 years ago, before all these 10 ball tournments started coming up I absolutely "refused" to play 9 ball with anyone that I thought was a good player. Everytime I matched up with good players (and I did regularly) it was too easy for them to break off the side rail and make the corner ball or the one in the side and it became an absolute joke... I got beat ahead sets by guys with perfect breaks that were not supposed to win and I beat guys that can give me the 7 playing even because I learned to break like that too....I decided that I would only play 10ball and break out the box with anyone that was considered a good player and over the next three years I could really tell who could play and who had weaknesses.. Kicks, banks, and safety play were more common during games then just running out. Over time, seeing the other aspects of the game then just "run out" pool really helped me improve my game because I saw that there were other options than just shooting.
I love this article and think its a great idea. I know I dont have much tournament experience but for my money its the only way to play....Lil Jon

pooljunkie4ever
12-03-2007, 07:10 PM
Really love the post, but what is next. How will we as avid pool players change the sport. Will we start boycotting 9-ball. How do we make the transition?

RunoutalloverU
12-03-2007, 08:14 PM
Really love the post, but what is next. How will we as avid pool players change the sport. Will we start boycotting 9-ball. How do we make the transition?

Gosh, I don't know, this is tougher than just singing the praises of a legend. I think that it will take time. We are just beginning to see the transition. We have to play it when we practice, play it when we gamble, and ask for it to be played in the local tournies. That might be it as far as the average player is concerned. Obviously Pros can make more an impact regarding it, and this maybe where not having a professional pool leauge comes in handy. Pros can kind of do what they like. And promoting a certain game they like is one of them. So we need the trickle down effect for this one I think. They just aren't going to make the races long enough in 9-ball to make a difference. So until 10 ball takes over, (as it looks like it has in Florida), we will just have to make subtle changes in things that we can control, and make what should be, happen.

MikeJanis
12-03-2007, 08:59 PM
Unfortunately there is a Down Side to switching to 10-Ball.

10-ball does require more skill than the average player has to compete with better players. Therefore what we have learned from promoting/holding 10-ball events is that less skilled players tend to not want to participate. This trend has driven event turnouts to lower and lower numbers and that is not good for the sport.

However, I for one do agree that 10-ball should be played in PROFESSIONAL TOURNAMENTS but I do not agree that most 9-ball events should switch to 10-Ball. Especially with the current frailty of our sports current position!

Mj

BTW... I did enjoy Jerry's article and see his points clearly.

RunoutalloverU
12-03-2007, 09:07 PM
Unfortunately there is a Down Side to switching to 10-Ball.

10-ball does require more skill than the average player has to compete with better players. Therefore what we have learned from promoting/holding 10-ball events is that less skilled players tend to not want to participate. This trend has driven event turnouts to lower and lower numbers and that is not good for the sport.

However, I for one do agree that 10-ball should be played in PROFESSIONAL TOURNAMENTS but I do not agree that most 9-ball events should switch to 10-Ball. Especially with the current frailty of our sports current position!


BTW... I did enjoy Jerry's article and see his points clearly.

Agreed, so then we use it for gambling, and pro tournies.

sjm
12-03-2007, 09:12 PM
Whether it's nine ball or ten ball, there is a huge amount of luck on the break. This is true of all rotation games.

This is why both straight pool and one pocket are both better games than nine ball and ten ball. The opening break is a safety and the first good look at the table must always be earned.

If nine ball has to go, so does ten ball.

RunoutalloverU
12-03-2007, 09:27 PM
Whether it's nine ball or ten ball, there is a huge amount of luck on the break. This is true of all rotation games.

This is why both straight pool and one pocket are both better games than nine ball and ten ball. The opening break is a safety and the first good look at the table must always be earned.

If nine ball has to go, so does ten ball.

This is both true and misleading. And if im right about slow transitions...which I am, 10 ball is our best bet, because its close to 9 ball, one-pocket will never, ever, be the dominate game in pool, period. I think that is painfully obvious. Straight pool....it could become more popular, but again never the dominate game. Its going to be a rotation game that will dominate, end of story. So we could just go to full rack rotation and be done with it, but I think thats out too (although my favorite). I know we all want Mosconi's game back in the limelight, but it just isnt going to happen, that time has past, and isnt comming back. So with that, play what you like, but as far as national and international popularity is concerned its going to be between 9 ball or 10 ball. And 10 ball is superior. So 10 ball it is.

sjm
12-03-2007, 09:36 PM
This is both true and misleading. And if im right about slow transitions...which I am, 10 ball is our best bet, because its close to 9 ball, one-pocket will never, ever, be the dominate game in pool, period. I think that is painfully obvious. Straight pool....it could become more popular, but again never the dominate game. Its going to be a rotation game that will dominate, end of story. So we could just go to full rack rotation and be done with it, but I think thats out too (although my favorite). I know we all want Mosconi's game back in the limelight, but it just isnt going to happen, that time has past, and isnt comming back. So with that, play what you like, but as far as national and international popularity is concerned its going to be between 9 ball or 10 ball. And 10 ball is superior. So 10 ball it is.

There is no evidence anywhere that ten ball does a better job of weeding out the elite than nine ball. Switching to ten ball would have no impact on which players win tournaments. The cream rises to the top no matter what game is played.

Johnnyt
12-03-2007, 10:36 PM
I agree there is less luck in 10-ball than in 9-ball on break. After that it's the same game as 9-ball. The only thing that's going to make it harder to run out is tighter pockets...a lot tighter pockets. I think if you made the pockets a hair under 4" you wouldn't make a ball everytime with the weak or the power break.

As far as 14.1 goes (and that was my only game for years) it will never be back strong. People live at a faster pace now. They want insant results. One pocket is a great game but not enough people play it. Pool has a list of things going against it. Pool has to be played to be enjoyed by the average Joe...not watched. Johnnyt

JohnPT
12-03-2007, 10:45 PM
There is no evidence anywhere that ten ball does a better job of weeding out the elite than nine ball. Switching to ten ball would have no impact on which players win tournaments. The cream rises to the top no matter what game is played.

the better player doesnt always win in 9ball and while there are no statistics, money games suggest that 10 ball favors the better player more than 9ball does. the better players are more eager to match up in 10 ball and if required, are more comfortable giving spots in 10 ball. if you match up with a better player for money wouldnt you like your chances more at 9ball than 10 ball?

David Beck
12-03-2007, 11:01 PM
Rotation 8 Ball?

quanz
12-03-2007, 11:08 PM
I think 10 ball will be even better if we use call shot except the break. However I do have a question regarding call shot, are obvious shots require calling?

Hail Mary Shot
12-04-2007, 12:01 AM
the radar gun was my idea. thanks for mentioning it Jerry. LOL !

softshot
12-04-2007, 12:20 AM
I think 10 ball will be even better if we use call shot except the break. However I do have a question regarding call shot, are obvious shots require calling?

You Nailed it dude. You cannot have a "WORLD POOL CHAMPION" that doesn't call his shots.

The regular Joes simply don't buy it. that IMO is why pool has been in a decline since the 80's. (when Tom Cruise sold the majority on 9-ball) Joe six-pack who loves pool and plays several days a week has NO respect for slop pool.

The Pro's and A LOT of amateur's are good enough to call their shots. even in rotation games. I caught a clip online of a "spectacular" Efren shot. He missed his shot by a mile, blew his leave and slopped in the nine. the crowd cheered, but Efren looked embarrassed. I believe he was, Everyone on planet earth knew he should have lost that rack.

edit: If he calls that shot it's a shot for the ages, we all cheer, but as it is we will never know.

Calling your shot for a pro might only come into play once every 1000 racks, but one slop is too many, you can't claim to be the best in the world if your slopping in balls to win.

You just can't.

Rockin' Robin
12-04-2007, 02:02 AM
good article by jerry.......however......do away with the fast cloth and the power break will reappear.
if you want smaller pockets....take up snooker.
until someone runs 8-10 racks every time they come to the table......leave the game alone.
it is still the best game and the best player will ultimately win the majority of the cash. same as in poker.
just because you are bored with 9-ball, dont make the up and coming players more confused with a newer or harder game. 9-ball will always be the next step for them. fast....easy to learn....fun.

memikey
12-04-2007, 02:20 AM
The IPT chose 8 Ball for one of the biggest pool enterpises ever attempted. I'm not so sure they got that part wrong:)

Setting aside the personalities involved does anyone think that an IPT type concept would be any more likely to succeed were it to be 9 ball or 10 ball instead of 8 ball?

What do AZB'ers think would be the likely consequences for the pool industry if 8 ball were to be promoted to being the most prevalent and dominant pro tour game of choice and to being the most important of the world championships?

Interesting essay Jerry, thanks.

Hail Mary Shot
12-04-2007, 02:41 AM
I believe it's time for rotation to reemerge.

rossaroni
12-04-2007, 02:46 AM
You Nailed it dude. You cannot have a "WORLD POOL CHAMPION" that doesn't call his shots.

Calling your shot for a pro might only come into play once every 1000 racks, but one slop is too many, you can't claim to be the best in the world if your slopping in balls to win.

You just can't.

You are right about slop only coming into play once in a while amongst the pros. However, I don't completely agree that you cannot have a "World Champion" that doesn't call his shots. I don't think it would really matter in the professional ranks. I agree with you that one slop shot may be too much, but some form of luck is always going to be there. What if a player gets a lucky safe on his opponent? Should we not count that either? Rolls are a part of the game. Everyone gets good rolls and bad rolls (i am still waiting on good rolls!:) ) I am sure 14.1 players of the past may have slopped balls in to. If you miss a shot and 4 rail it into the same corner, it still counts, right? I have also seen plenty of times professional 3-cushion players have gotten lucky or slopped a point- of course, they always apologize. I find that the soft break and the ability to make the same ball everytime is much more of a problem in 9-ball, then are slop shots among the pros.

softshot
12-04-2007, 02:55 AM
You are right about slop only coming into play once in a while amongst the pros. However, I don't completely agree that you cannot have a "World Champion" that doesn't call his shots. I don't think it would really matter in the professional ranks. I agree with you that one slop shot may be too much, but some form of luck is always going to be there. What if a player gets a lucky safe on his opponent? Should we not count that either? Rolls are a part of the game. Everyone gets good rolls and bad rolls (i am still waiting on good rolls!:) ) I am sure 14.1 players of the past may have slopped balls in to. If you miss a shot and 4 rail it into the same corner, it still counts, right? I have also seen plenty of times professional 3-cushion players have gotten lucky or slopped a point- of course, they always apologize. I find that the soft break and the ability to make the same ball everytime is much more of a problem in 9-ball, then are slop shots among the pros.

when your trying to sell a game to "bar bangers" who call every kiss, every carom, and every rail, it does matter.

As far as the soft break.. it was only a matter of time , I am surprised it took this long.

You are right the soft break turned 9-ball into a position drill for the pro's, but if you have to move the game up a notch to make the pro's compete. Then why don't you add the rule that the mass audience simply expects out of a professional pool player?

softshot
12-04-2007, 03:09 AM
I am sure 14.1 players of the past may have slopped balls in to. If you miss a shot and 4 rail it into the same corner, it still counts, right?

4 rails?? you don't play much straight pool do ya? ;-)

JAM
12-04-2007, 03:12 AM
I enjoyed the article, and IMHO, the luck game of 9-ball today seems to be flawed because of soft breaks and rack riggers. Maybe it is 9-ball's dirty little secret, but there are quite a few players who rig racks.

I have mixed feelings about the break. You can't rig a break. However, one can utilize breaking strategies, depending on the equipment and the rack.

To me, rigging the rack is like playing poker with a marked deck of cards. I liken it to cheating. Yet, the dirty little secret of the secret society of rack riggers is alive and well. I witnessed two notorious rack riggers at a pro event one time, and there was more time spent during the match arguing about the rack than there was actual shooting balls in pockets. Both players were rack riggers.

I actually had one tournament director say to me that if the rack is rigged, it is up to the breaking player to challenge the rigged rack. Otherwise, the rigged racks are acceptable. I was shocked.

The only way to overcome this problem of rigged racks in 9-ball is to have neutral rackers for all games. Unfortunately, in these economically challenged times, most tournaments cannot afford to have neutral rackers for each match. Usually, they are reserved for TV tables.

10-ball is the obvious replacement of 9-ball, as I think it will eliminate the rack rigging strategies, unless, of course, they can figure out a way to rig the 10-ball racks. Then we're faced with the same problem.

Also, pocket billiards consists of so many different games, i.e., rotation ball of 3-ball through 15-ball, one-pocket, banks, 14.1, et cetera. Whereas, other sports, like football and baseball have one game and one set of rules. It is easier to understand one game and one set of rules for mainstream America.

Allen Hopkins, et al., continues to come up with innovative ways to showcase pool on TV with events like the Skins Billiards Championship and Texas Hold'em Billiard Championship. Soon there will be a million-dollar tournament which, hopefully, will receive mention on American TV. Until then, pool has to compete with PGA, MLB, NFL, NBA, and tennis.

Neutral rackers is the way to go, and to accompany that, three balls must pass the side packet after breaking in order for it to be a legal break. These two changes would make a difference, whether the game is 9-ball or 10-ball. JMHO, FWIW!

JAM

rossaroni
12-04-2007, 03:19 AM
4 rails?? you don't play much straight pool do ya? ;-)

I have played a little. I think my high run was 527, but just quit cause it was getting boring. Why would you ask this?

memikey
12-04-2007, 03:24 AM
..... I agree with you that one slop shot may be too much, but some form of luck is always going to be there. What if a player gets a lucky safe on his opponent? Should we not count that either? Rolls are a part of the game. Everyone gets good rolls and bad rolls (i am still waiting on good rolls!:) ) .....

Seems to me that the essential difference between slop shot making of balls and the other pieces of luck you describe is that there is a simple and practical option/method of easily eliminating almost all of the slop shot element of luck via the call shot rules, whereas there is no simple and practical option/method of eliminating the 'lucky safes'.

softshot
12-04-2007, 03:25 AM
I have played a little. I think my high run was 527, but just quit cause it was getting boring. Why would you ask this?

I mean no disrespect,

BUT 14.1 is all about small precision cue ball movements, (thats how you pick apart the cluster) anyone who misses any straight pool shot to the point of a 4 rail luck rebound, is a banger and a bad one at that.

considering you have nearly doubled the world record you would know much more about that than me ;)

rossaroni
12-04-2007, 03:31 AM
I mean no disrespect,

BUT 14.1 is all about small precision cue ball movements, (thats how you pick apart the cluster) anyone who misses any straight pool shot to the point of a 4 rail luck rebound, is a banger and a bad one at that.

considering you have nearly doubled the world record you would know much more about that than me ;)

I don't think I doubled it, but someone once mentioned that I may have broken it by a ball. I was not really saying that 4 railers are common in straight pool, but it is possible to "slop" a ball in playing 14.1. I hardly ever do it more then 5-6 times a match and would not consider myself a banger.

rossaroni
12-04-2007, 03:33 AM
Seems to me that the essential difference between slop shot making of balls and the other pieces of luck you describe is that there is a simple and practical option/method of easily eliminating almost all of the slop shot element of luck via the call shot rules, whereas there is no simple and practical option/method of eliminating the 'lucky safes'.

I agree with you. I was just trying to make a point that making pros play call shot, really would not matter too much. Howerev, you are right about being able to eliminating slop shots, to a certain extent.

softshot
12-04-2007, 03:41 AM
I don't think I doubled it, but someone once mentioned that I may have broken it by a ball. I was not really saying that 4 railers are common in straight pool, but it is possible to "slop" a ball in playing 14.1. I hardly ever do it more then 5-6 times a match and would not consider myself a banger.

Fair enough.. considering your AV and where I live there are good odds I either know you or have played you. LOL

In 9-ball you can slop any number of ways as long as you hit the lowest ball first, and something falls its a good shot. including bumping the 9 in for a WIN

for anyone playing anything other than 9-ball you must call ball and pocket. if the 9-ball pro slops 1:1000 the 14.1 player slops 1;1,000,000,000 and calls it good... big difference.

rossaroni
12-04-2007, 03:47 AM
Fair enough.. considering your AV and where I live there are good odds I either know you or have played you. LOL

In 9-ball you can slop any number of ways as long as you hit the lowest ball first, and something falls its a good shot.

for anyone playing anything other than 9-ball you must call ball and pocket. if the 9-ball pro slops 1:1000 the 14.1 player slops 1;1,000,000,000 and calls it good... big difference.

You probably do know me or have heard about how bad I play!
I think you can also slop balls in one-pocket. Slop also counts in APA. Oh, and in 3-ball!

softshot
12-04-2007, 03:50 AM
but in none of your examples can you slop in 1 ball (the 9) and WIN

rossaroni
12-04-2007, 03:52 AM
but in none of your examples can you slop in 1 ball (the 9) and WIN

Yea, but you can slop in 1 ball (the 8) and lose!

softshot
12-04-2007, 03:55 AM
Yea, but you can slop in 1 ball (the 8) and lose!


but in that case you don't get to call yourself WORLD CHAMPION!!!! your just the poor bastard who missed.

softshot
12-04-2007, 04:27 AM
The IPT chose 8 Ball for one of the biggest pool enterpises ever attempted. I'm not so sure they got that part wrong:)

Setting aside the personalities involved does anyone think that an IPT type concept would be any more likely to succeed were it to be 9 ball or 10 ball instead of 8 ball?

What do AZB'ers think would be the likely consequences for the pool industry if 8 ball were to be promoted to being the most prevalent and dominant pro tour game of choice and to being the most important of the world championships?

Interesting essay Jerry, thanks.

I like 8-ball just because I like it LOL

But to play it with skill you have to play it on a small table where multiple clusters and tight position come into play. The game gets easier as the table gets bigger.

The smaller the table the more it reminds me of 14.1

JAM
12-04-2007, 04:32 AM
I like 8-ball just because I like it LOL

But to play it with skill you have to play it on a small table where multiple clusters and tight position come into play. The game gets easier as the table gets bigger.

I agree. I grew up on 8-ball when I started playing. I think 8-ball was at one time more popular for social shooters, like myself, because many times it used to be played in places with coin-operated bar tables.

Of course, you could use the remaining balls when applicable in 9-ball on a coin-operated bar table, but most places, including the leagues, played 8-ball.

JAM

hemicudas
12-04-2007, 06:06 AM
Great read, well written and I totally agree, Jerry.

Interesting thing happened the other day, Jerry. I called Jay, we talked for at least 5 mins before he snapped and said, "Damn Bill, I thought you were Jerry Forsyth."

Compliment? Back hand slap? I don't know but we must sound alike on the phone, LOL.

cleary
12-04-2007, 06:53 AM
So what's going to happen when 10ball gets "too easy"? 15 ball? Maybe 26 ball? That would be crazy!

I thank rather than up the ball count, maybe just a few tweeks to the rules would slow some players down on the professional level. Maybe take away pushing out. Or everyone breaks from the box. Or we could make everyone play one one of these http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/LaurCrist/HEF3-1.jpg

Joe T
12-04-2007, 06:59 AM
Great article Jerry, you only kept me waiting 11 yrs!

Forget about comparing 14.1 to 10 ball for a minute and lets just focus on making part of the sport just a little better. By switching to 10 ball at least for the pros or higher level run out players you 1st off eliminate sooooo many arguments (we?re talking 90% of all current arguments) and the majority of these arguments start off with the rack and then they?ll carry over to that match and the rest of the tournament. When 2 run out players of somewhat equal skill compete in 9 ball the single most important factor will be the rack, one person making the corner ball and one person not. At least with 10 ball especially the way the FL tour does it you immediately cut down on arguments of the rack and arguments that stem from the rack. And it is not the same game after the break, there is much more strategy as far as safety play, kicking and position play, something that in the long run will make our players better all around players not just break and cosmo players. Most games evolve and most pro levels play by slightly higher standards, we should to.

SJM I?m not picking on you but a simple point for all involved and I don?t know if I?ve ever disagreed with sjm and I?m not sure if I am here simple because you said there?s no proof and that doesn?t mean you totally disagree but to put you in a bad spot and it?s only bad because I?m forcing you to back me playing Efren a race to 7, 9, 11 or 15. Which game would you prefer we play, 9 ball or 10 ball?

I know, none right. Okay, okay I?m getting enough games on the wire to make it somewhat fair just so you can sweat your $$$.

This is coming from a guy that sells Racking Secrets, a DVD which would be a lot less valuable if there were no 9 ball.

supergreenman
12-04-2007, 09:24 AM
I believe it's time for rotation to reemerge.
Watching rotation is like getting your teeth pulled slowly.

Just my opinion.

RunoutalloverU
12-04-2007, 09:53 AM
Watching rotation is like getting your teeth pulled slowly.

Just my opinion.

I bought the DVD on Ebay of Efren playing Bustamante in rotation. After watching it rotation became the game I practice above all others. It was anything but boring. If you have a chance you should pick it up, it will blow your mind.

Jude Rosenstock
12-04-2007, 02:00 PM
I want to start off by saying it's very well-written however, this isn't news. Sardo & Deuel have both been around for YEARS now and it's Sardo who introduced "consistent racks" and Deuel who became famous for exploiting them and guess what? 9-ball is still here!

Seriously, I would love to see some changes in pool. I mean, I think we focus WAY to much on rotation altogether and not enough on the other games. Regional tours should have at least a few 8-ball and straight pool tournaments and I honestly think you'd be pleasantly surprised to see who would emerge to show up and watch/play for such events. The APA is predominantly 8-ball and I can't imagine very many APA 6s or 7s passing up a chance to take on the pros if they didn't need to travel far.

iba7467
12-04-2007, 02:16 PM
I can't imagine very many APA 6s or 7s passing up a chance to take on the pros if they didn't need to travel far.

Does it cost more than $8 per session, then I can. I mean most APA players in our league wouldn't bet water is wet, much less donate $25 - 50 to play in a decent tournament.

mantis99
12-04-2007, 02:43 PM
I did not like the essay, nor do I think one person should use such an influential position to try and forward his opinion, and claim 9 ball as "dead". I am sure fault can be found in amy game, however, switching to a harder game will only make the situation for pool worse. Why is it that pool needs these generational changes? My father's generation played 14.1, we play 9 ball. Is it 10 ball for the next generation? I see some value in his arguments, yet I never see ANYONE running out more than a few games in a row, even with the sardo, and I watch a lotl of pool. Besides, with alternating break, it really does not matter. Are we going to argue that it makes the game more boring to watch? People come to see home runs and 300 foot drives. A run out is the same type of thing in pool.

Pool does not need a harder game to become the standard. Many people shy away from pool as it is because of the difficulty in becoming proficient at it. Why create a greater separation between the pros and wannabe bangers? Maybe some changes to 9 ball should be made, such as no slop, but to change the entire game is a bit hasty.

This should have been posted in the forum for discussion, not as a main page statement!

Jude Rosenstock
12-04-2007, 04:01 PM
Does it cost more than $8 per session, then I can. I mean most APA players in our league wouldn't bet water is wet, much less donate $25 - 50 to play in a decent tournament.


I actually think APA integration is critical if professional pool is ever planning on being remotely successful.

enzo
12-04-2007, 05:14 PM
as a tournament game, 9 ball is dead????

don't get me wrong, i agree with pretty much everything the article said, i think it's a very well thought out, nice piece. but don't start off with such a ludicrous statement. 9 ball is the main game in almost every tournament i go to. how is it dead?? not only is it not dead, i would venture to guess it's gonna be around a long time to come.

Island Drive
12-04-2007, 07:51 PM
To let the 9-Ball rack/structure/gamblers game/ created out of the hustle days of the past depression generation 'be gone' is a good thing/about time and by doing so, allot more good will come of it. If someone leaves the wing ball loose on you, by accident or on purpose (that's what we think anyway) the relationship of those two players has been undermined and so is the event that is being held. The structure of a TRIANGLE is intact and removes the hustle that the 9-Ball injects into the sport. Long live 10 Ball and the hard break. Thank you AZ very much for you POST

Neil
12-04-2007, 08:19 PM
..................

Tom In Cincy
12-04-2007, 09:05 PM
But, I would think that the game would be improved quicker with "ALL Ball Fouls" like the rest of the world.

The World Standard Rules don't even include a section covering 'non-refereed or Cue Ball fouls only" Why? because there are referees available for all matches.

The future of professional pocket billiards depends on how they are going to approach these 'changes'. The current top pros cannot make a decent living by just playing in 6-10 mid to large tournaments a year. The formats of these tournaments needs to change also.

9 Ball is just part of the problem. The playing field is not consistent I'm not talking about the table, balls or cloth, I'm talking about the 'double elimination' random draws.

The Women Pros are testing their formats to keep the top players wining by seeding their tournaments and also changing the format of the tournaments.
Double elimination random draws only favor the lucky.

I like these changes for helping encourage the growth of professional pool.

1. 10 Ball
2. All Ball Fouls
3. Seeding the top ranked players
4. Single Elimination with 2nd tournament for losers of the 1st and 2nd rounds.
5. Round Robin during the last 16 players with two groups of 8.

Or, 9 Ball with the old 'roll out' rules.
Or, organized qualifier tournaments that will only provide 16 player spots TOTAL.

More City vrs City challenge tournaments using different games (14.1, 1Pkt, 10Ball and 8 Ball) Pool Rooms owners should love this idea. Regional tournaments bring out the 'loyalists' in their customer base and can also be a big crowd pleaser.

Standardized RULES that all leagues and tournaments use so everyone will be on the 'same page' when it come to player expectations when entering a tournament.

The only reason that the BCA adopted the World Standard Pool Associations rules was because of the interest at the time that there was going to be a chance of an Olympic spot for Pocket Billiards.

Changing the game from 9 ball to 10 ball is a start, but there has to be more and it had better come quick and with the support of a lot of players and promoters or not only is 9 Ball dead... but so is the opportunity for any of the new players to see any kind of a future in this game.

vinmaps
12-05-2007, 12:04 PM
Rotation 8 Ball?
THE game is dBall...Trust Me.
http://www.mgtmotorsports.com/Feedback/showthread.php?t=467

sjm
12-05-2007, 05:54 PM
There's nothing original in Jerry's essay. He doesn't make a single argument or point that hasn't been made on this forum often.

As a fan and as a player, I'm very cool with both 9-ball and 10-ball. Still, any suggestion that the hard break doesn't entail a huge amount of luck is unreasonable.

For pro pool to have any chance of success, it has to mean something to the average league or bar player. One thing that the IPT had right was the choice of 8-ball. The fact that countless errors were made in the management of the IPT in no way proves that the choice of 8-ball was in error. Far fewer, but some, recreational players play 9-ball, so this is the second choice if the pros have any chance of connecting with the amateur players. Almost no amateurs play 10-ball, so if the pros want to completely disenfrancise the fans, this is the perfect choice. 10-ball also has a slower pace than both 8-ball and 9-ball.

8-ball and 9-ball both have a long history of having the cream rise to the top in the biggest events. The "too much luck," "too much slop" and "races too short" arguments are belabored here on the forum, but the fact remains that the most elite are the ones who've been winning the biggest titles for decades.

I say "Who cares what the pro players want?" The further pro pool drifts from the games played by the league and bar players, the less the fans will care about the pro game, a salient point as we've been reading that the pros won't be at the Riviera this year, which menas that some 10,000 amatuers who normally see them won't see them this year.

The best argument I've read is that "if you want to make the break less important in the pro game, tighten the pockets." The runouts are too easy, and that's the problem with the pro game. Supertight equipment would put the emphasis back on offensive execution, defensive execution and strategic play. Tighten the pockets to the point that only the most elite will run out with regularity and you'll weed out the best without switching to a game that would disenfranchise the average fan.

It would be just fine with me if I were to read a "10-ball is dead" article at some point.

Big Bad Bern
12-05-2007, 08:38 PM
So ten ball is the game of the future eh. I think ten ball is advantageous for the big breakers who can crush the break shot and have a better chance of fluking a ball randomly into a pocket (boy that takes skill).

If nine ball is considered a break contest at least it is a fair one, where if both players take the time to master the required skills they both have a chance to win. I don't know how many matches I have seen where one player is consistently pocketing a ball on the break ( eight nine or ten ball) and the other one comes up dry on their turns making for some very lopsided matches.

If someone like Efren who is considered to have a weak break runs up against someone like Hillbilly or Shane, your telling me that Efren's over all ability will over come the fact that these guys can run four or five racks on him and he can't fire back with more than one or two racks, Puuulease. Efren will get run over and might never win another tourny.

You can have all the skill in the world but if you can't fluke a ball on the power break you can't win. Wouldn't it be something to see Efren resort to safety breaking in ten ball to negate someone elses power break advantage and put more stratagy into the game, OH! how foul the power break purists would cry then, but if it was Efren it would be ok, heaven forbid Corey try this EEK!


Bern

David Beck
12-05-2007, 09:45 PM
Alternate breaks! But 9 Ball at the pro level still comes down to who makes a ball on the break.

Vahmurka
12-06-2007, 09:20 AM
Matchroom decided, based on recent WPC imo, to change the breaking rules for coming Mosconi Cup. Check details in "Mosconi Cup Alert" thread.

RunoutalloverU
12-06-2007, 09:27 AM
Matchroom decided, based on recent WPC imo, to change the breaking rules for coming Mosconi Cup. Check details in "Mosconi Cup Alert" thread.

Again I don't like this either, if you have to do that to the game, change the game. They pros figured something out that I think is actually pretty special, but now that they have, move on.

GG11
12-10-2007, 03:30 PM
The best argument I've read is that "if you want to make the break less important in the pro game, tighten the pockets." The runouts are too easy, and that's the problem with the pro game. Supertight equipment would put the emphasis back on offensive execution, defensive execution and strategic play. Tighten the pockets to the point that only the most elite will run out with regularity and you'll weed out the best without switching to a game that would disenfranchise the average fan.



Wow, SJM I never thought of this idea before. Very very clever! I like it. Anything that would put the cream of the crop in the winner's circle would be great. It'd be a nice change to the mickey mouse run outs we saw at the World Championships. Excellent idea!

RunoutalloverU
12-10-2007, 03:34 PM
Wow, SJM I never thought of this idea before. Very very clever! I like it. Anything that would put the cream of the crop in the winner's circle would be great. It'd be a nice change to the mickey mouse run outs we saw at the World Championships. Excellent idea!

wow sarcasm in a women is sexy, you comming to the west coast anytime soon??? lol, jk, sort of....

enzo
12-10-2007, 05:38 PM
im curious why people don't want players to use a soft break? it's a shot like any other shot (the break i mean). if a player wants to use his discretion and perhaps have a much lesser chance of scratching on the break by hitting them soft, then he should definitely be able to do that. that was just the one thing i read that i strongly disagree with..... you can't tell a guy how hard to break them!

Bob Jewett
12-10-2007, 06:29 PM
im curious why people don't want players to use a soft break? it's a shot like any other shot (the break i mean). if a player wants to use his discretion and perhaps have a much lesser chance of scratching on the break by hitting them soft, then he should definitely be able to do that. that was just the one thing i read that i strongly disagree with..... you can't tell a guy how hard to break them!
It's because nine ball is traditionally played with a hard break and no ball is particularly likely to go in. That's because in the past, the rack wasn't tight. I think the change to shoot from the break box and require 3 balls above the head string or pocketed will only be effective for a short time until the players solve those requirements as well.