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kaznj
12-21-2007, 10:29 AM
Do any of you know how APA ratings are calculated? I recently heard that the 2003 or earlier team manual showed this, but the APA does not want people to know how to do this, so they eliminated this from recent manuals. I don't know if this is true. I spoke to the my league operator and he said he was not allowed to explain it.

I am not interested in hearing opinions on the calculations. I would like to know the actual algorithm. What I have seen so far does not make sense to me. I have a player on my team who was moved up to 4 from a three. He proceeded to lose two weeks in a row to players with levels of 2. Each match was hill/hill. He was not lowered. He then beat a 2 at hill/hill. This guy is clearly a 3. I have heard numerous similar scenerios. I have heard that going to vegas is a joke. Players tell me there are random ranking changes that seem arbitrary.

Jude Rosenstock
12-21-2007, 10:33 AM
Do any of you know how APA ratings are calculated? I recently heard that the 2003 or earlier team manual showed this, but the APA does not want people to know how to do this, so they eliminated this from recent manuals. I don't know if this is true. I spoke to the my league operator and he said he was not allowed to explain it.

I am not interested in hearing opinions on the calculations. I would like to know the actual algorithm. What I have seen so far does not make sense to me. I have a player on my team who was moved up to 4 from a three. He proceeded to lose two weeks in a row to players with levels of 2. Each match was hill/hill. He was not lowered. He then beat a 2 at hill/hill. This guy is clearly a 3. I have heard numerous similar scenerios. I have heard that going to vegas is a joke. Players tell me there are random ranking changes that seem arbitrary.


The Equalizer Handicap System is deliberately kept secret and the APA has a team of lawyers on call to make sure it stays that way. Anyone (including this very forum) who wishes to post specifics on it should just call a lawyer the moment they hit submit.

RRfireblade
12-21-2007, 10:44 AM
No one is going to post the algorithm.

Suffice it to say that there is much more to it than winning or losing.

Innings per game , innings per match , balls made per inning , defensive play , margin of victory , relationship of the victory and many factors relating to the rankings of the 2 players.

Handicaps never 'seem fair' when they turn against you. ;)

kaznj
12-21-2007, 10:44 AM
Thanks for the fast reply. That is very interesting.

Bamacues
12-21-2007, 10:45 AM
Unless they were contractually bound to the APA, telling what one knows or thinks would not be an issue for the courts. I don't know how the system works, but it does take a minimum of 20-30 matches played before a player's handicap settles in. There are certainly instances where a player is not ranked where they belong, but it usually evens out over time.

As far as Vegas goes, I have been 4 of the last 6 years. It is a blast, but a lot of work. Doing well is as much an issue of endurance as of anything else. I don't think player's skill levels jump arbitrarily, but you do find that the sandbaggers get caught and move up. Many people will hold back to keep their ratings down in league, but when they go to higher level tournaments, they play up to their true speed, and get caught.

It has always seemed ridiculous to me that a pool player who can play at a 5-6 skill level would get a blast out of beating people who are true skill level 2-3 players by falsely keeping their skill down to avoid spotting the player. What a crock.
Joe

Bugz
12-21-2007, 10:50 AM
Unless they were contractually bound to the APA, telling what one knows or thinks would not be an issue for the courts. I don't know how the system works, but it does take a minimum of 20-30 matches played before a player's handicap settles in. There are certainly instances where a player is not ranked where they belong, but it usually evens out over time.

As far as Vegas goes, I have been 4 of the last 6 years. It is a blast, but a lot of work. Doing well is as much an issue of endurance as of anything else. I don't think player's skill levels jump arbitrarily, but you do find that the sandbaggers get caught and move up. Many people will hold back to keep their ratings down in league, but when they go to higher level tournaments, they play up to their true speed, and get caught.

It has always seemed ridiculous to me that a pool player who can play at a 5-6 skill level would get a blast out of beating people who are true skill level 2-3 players by falsely keeping their skill down to avoid spotting the player. What a crock.
Joe

Not keeping their skill down to beat up on the legit lower handicaps, they keep there level down to keep the team together. I honestly think if everyone in Joliet and Romeovill played to their true speed. There might be half the teams playing, no one would beable to field 23. I'm not going out to scout for new players, until the APA cuts a little cash to the people who do bring the new players in.

kaznj
12-21-2007, 10:52 AM
Bama I totally agree with what you said about sandbaggers. For some reason people want to win so badly that they only want to play players they can beat. They don't really want competition. I get great enjoyment out of playing my best, even if I lose to someone who has shot a great match. As long as I have played to my ability it is fun. If you throw a few dollars on the table some people go crazy.

ScottW
12-21-2007, 10:53 AM
Unless they were contractually bound to the APA, telling what one knows or thinks would not be an issue for the courts.

Not true. Ever hear of "trade secrets"?

Now, that applies to actual information - opinions are a whole different beast, I imagine.

For the most part, though, the APA handicap system appears to be based around one's innings-per-game average. The lower that number, the higher your handicap. This is why marking safeties is paramount - if a player's safeties aren't marked very well, it could well mean the difference between him being one handicap (where he would be, with proper record-keeping) or one handicap LOWER (hence giving that player an advantage).

iba7467
12-21-2007, 11:00 AM
I wish I knew this same information, because I don't see how some of the rankings are fair. There are guys who have played pool for 20 years, and only "come with it" when they absolutely have to.

My wife had one good match during our City Championship, she basically broke in or the opponent hung up every point she made. She moved from a 1 to a 2. Since then, 12 matches later, she has not won once as a 2 and only 2 of those matches would she have won as a 1.

I have the same problem of fielding a team of 23, because all of my players actually try to improve. The 23 rule might be better served by a limit of the number of players above a certain rank, just my 2 cents.

Jude Rosenstock
12-21-2007, 11:00 AM
Unless they were contractually bound to the APA, telling what one knows or thinks would not be an issue for the courts.


First, the APA (nor Kaznj) is interested in loose interpretations of the handicap system. What they are protecting (and what Kaznj is seeking) are the specifics of how handicaps are calculated. The APA is a multimillion dollar business that has hundreds of people who have invested quite a bit of money into its success. A court may just make you shut-up but trust me, you'll be forced to shut-up. It's not public information. It's deliberately kept secret. The APA can easily argue that their success relies on this formula's secrecy.


The only reason why someone would be interested in the specifics of a handicap formula is if they were interested in exploiting it. Good luck with that.

Tiger5150
12-21-2007, 11:03 AM
I have been a captian in the league for about 6 years and my best guess is on average how many Points you can get in 15 innings. I notice that no one on my team ever goes up if they get 15 innings or more minus defensive shots.

iba7467
12-21-2007, 11:06 AM
The only reason why someone would be interested in the specifics of a handicap formula is if they were interested in exploiting it. Good luck with that.

I agree with everything except this part of the statement. I would like to know so that I could specifically guard against someone else exploiting the system.

I don't know how to make a bomb, but if I see someone carrying combustibles, wiring, and a timer, I know to get the fotw.

catscradle
12-21-2007, 11:12 AM
First, the APA (nor Kaznj) is interested in loose interpretations of the handicap system. What they are protecting (and what Kaznj is seeking) are the specifics of how handicaps are calculated. The APA is a multimillion dollar business that has hundreds of people who have invested quite a bit of money into its success. A court may just make you shut-up but trust me, you'll be forced to shut-up. It's not public information. It's deliberately kept secret. The APA can easily argue that their success relies on this formula's secrecy.


The only reason why someone would be interested in the specifics of a handicap formula is if they were interested in exploiting it. Good luck with that.

I wish somebody knew the law well enough to explain the law theory there. It doesn't make sense to me. I can see it being illegal to have worked for them signing an agreement then revealing the "secret", finding out the "secret" and using it for a competing league, breaking in somewhere and stealing the "secret"; but I just can't see what law theory is that would make it illegal to print the "secret" if I found it out by some unknown means. I'm not saying you're incorrect, I just don't see a viable theory.
At any rate, I don't think it works very well anyway because of all the sand-bagging.

RRfireblade
12-21-2007, 11:14 AM
I wish somebody knew the law well enough to explain the law theory there. It doesn't make sense to me.

Cause there is none , not without a signed agreement and assuming the information wasn't stolen.

ScottW
12-21-2007, 11:16 AM
Please, all of you armchair lawyers - let's see a photo of your law degrees.

kaznj
12-21-2007, 11:17 AM
"The only reason why someone would be interested in the specifics of a handicap formula is if they were interested in exploiting it. Good luck with that."
Jude, I teach math. I find calculations like this interesting. I also would like to know why some players do not go down even when they consistently lose to lower players. If the APA protects this so some do not try to start their own leagues using someone else's hard work I respect that. You are out of line to suggest that I would only want to exploint their system. You do not know me or why I want this information. This is why in my original post I said I was not interested in opinions. I am only interested in the calculations. If this is not available so be it. Please keep you opinions to yourself.

steev
12-21-2007, 11:21 AM
On top of what the others said, it's also revolving, meaning they use your last (10 or 20?) matches. As you add new matches, old ones get discarded from the handicapping equation. I don't think they have any 'drop your (best or worst) X matches' element, but they could.

It was always my understanding that, if you wanted to sandbag, you had to 'run up the innings' without getting marked for safeties. Of course I didn't do this, went up to a 7, and quit due to the 23 rule.

-s

edit: the prevailing statistic in APA equation (IMO) is 'innings in games you win'.

James
12-21-2007, 11:21 AM
Please, all of you armchair lawyers - let's see a photo of your law degrees.

Calling Thomas, td783, where are you?

Jude Rosenstock
12-21-2007, 11:24 AM
I agree with everything except this part of the statement. I would like to know so that I could specifically guard against someone else exploiting the system.

I don't know how to make a bomb, but if I see someone carrying combustibles, wiring, and a timer, I know to get the fotw.


Either someone is missing deliberately or they're not. There really is nothing more to it than that.

RRfireblade
12-21-2007, 11:26 AM
From APA :


Your handicap is based on your performance in each match you play. Your score is calculated from the previous information recorded on your weekly scoresheet. When that score is averaged in with your previous scores, some surprising effects can occur. Here are some possibilities:


You could shoot a very good score but not increase your skill level.
Losing a match, which usually results in a poor score, probably won't lower your skill level because handicaps are calculated by counting your best scores first.
In a very close match where each player plays very well, it is possible for you to lose the match but still receive a good score for the week. This score, if it is among your best, could possibly raise your handicap even though you lost.
Now that you understand what can affect your handicap, you might be wondering if this is the best method to use. Remember, The Equalizer? scoring and handicap system was developed over a period of years by a committee of professionals with extensive league and tournament experience. Consider the following:
Using several good scores when calculating your handicap lends stability. The alternative would result in your handicap constantly changing, which would cause problems with the "23-Rule." An unstable handicap is technically inaccurate, when you consider that your handicap is a reflection of your true ability. (For more information about the 23-Rule, see page 33 of the Official Team Manual.)
Using your best scores eliminates the matches where playing conditions were bad, you weren't feeling well or you just had a bad night. Only the matches where you play your best should determine your handicap. Other sports' handicap systems leave out scores for the same purpose, and all effective handicap systems attempt to stabilize handicap ratings at or near a player's true ability.
The Equalizer? scoring and handicap system works perfectly when players concentrate on the game and let the system take care of itself. In fact, BOTH players in a given match must break the rules before the system will fail. One player must deliberately miss shots resulting in more turns (innings), and his opponent must fail to mark the deliberate misses on the scoresheet as defensive shots. If you mark deliberate misses as "defensive shots," they don't count. For more information about defensive shots, consult your Team Manual or ask your APA Team Captain, Division Representative or League Operator for more details.

As you can see, The Equalizer? scoring and handicap system really does work! It effectively equalizes the difference in player abilities, which creates a more exciting and competitive match. However, it is dependent on a player's willingness to follow the system. There has never been an 8-Ball or 9-Ball team handicap system as accurate as ours. All that's required is a positive team spirit in order to achieve its full potential. The rest is up to you!


So basically it weights your better days and de-values your bad days to cut down on th effects of sandbagging.

StormHotRod300
12-21-2007, 11:29 AM
Reason # 189574 why I hate the APA!!!! the handicap system.

It favors sandbaggers!

Explain this to me, I played one session of 9ball back in 2004, and was a APA 5. I then went to play 8ball, and started as a 4, then was a 5 after the first week, and then became a SL6 after 5 wins in a row, against guys who were 4's and 3's. Well I then go on to lose my next 16 or 21 matches. And didnt get dropped to a 5. I mean I *****ed left n right about it, cuz I'd see guys who have been playing for years who were a 5 or under and they would move up n down like a rollercoaster.

Well the L/O told me its because the handicap system determines your SL based on your BEST last 10 matches. OK, so if you are losing constantly week in and week out, against SL 4's, Your last 10 BEST matches are still going to be the ones that you WON months ago.

This was something else I hated, It always seemed like the league board member's never moved up in SL no matter how often they won. I seen one guy who was a SL6 win for 20 outa 22 weeks and not move upto a SL7. I seen his team mate who was also on the Board, and was a SL6, Win a match and get moved down to a 5!!!!!! And he had been a SL6 for about 1 yr at said time.

Now try and explain that to your everyday league players.

Jude Rosenstock
12-21-2007, 11:29 AM
"The only reason why someone would be interested in the specifics of a handicap formula is if they were interested in exploiting it. Good luck with that."
Jude, I teach math. I find calculations like this interesting. I also would like to know why some players do not go down even when they consistently lose to lower players. If the APA protects this so some do not try to start their own leagues using someone else's hard work I respect that. You are out of line to suggest that I would only want to exploint their system. You do not know me or why I want this information. This is why in my original post I said I was not interested in opinions. I am only interested in the calculations. If this is not available so be it. Please keep you opinions to yourself.


Okay, perhaps you're right. I shouldn't jump to conclusions and I apologize for that. However, I cannot imagine there is anything of any mathematical significance going on. What's more, I do not believe the majority of people who seek this information are merely interested in it for academic purposes.

trustyrusty
12-21-2007, 11:32 AM
Either someone is missing deliberately or they're not. There really is nothing more to it than that.,

nah, it can get be less obvious than that....those, oops I missed that break out, or after pocketing a ball the cb pushes one of your other balls making a cluster, missing leaves, etc. all = extra innings. Someone with really good control of the rock can manage multiple innings (may require a safe or two also) and still win matches AND not go up. Not that I've ever seen or known of this happening....:cool:

RRfireblade
12-21-2007, 11:32 AM
Most people want an expanation for why they feel they have been wronged and everyone else has been righted. :D

RRfireblade
12-21-2007, 11:37 AM
It's simple really , for a period of time you played at a level that reflected your SL.

You will now always be a threat to be able to play at the level until you show you are never a threat to do so again.



Reason # 189574 why I hate the APA!!!! the handicap system.

It favors sandbaggers!

Explain this to me, I played one session of 9ball back in 2004, and was a APA 5. I then went to play 8ball, and started as a 4, then was a 5 after the first week, and then became a SL6 after 5 wins in a row, against guys who were 4's and 3's. Well I then go on to lose my next 16 or 21 matches. And didnt get dropped to a 5. I mean I *****ed left n right about it, cuz I'd see guys who have been playing for years who were a 5 or under and they would move up n down like a rollercoaster.

Well the L/O told me its because the handicap system determines your SL based on your BEST last 10 matches. OK, so if you are losing constantly week in and week out, against SL 4's, Your last 10 BEST matches are still going to be the ones that you WON months ago.

This was something else I hated, It always seemed like the league board member's never moved up in SL no matter how often they won. I seen one guy who was a SL6 win for 20 outa 22 weeks and not move upto a SL7. I seen his team mate who was also on the Board, and was a SL6, Win a match and get moved down to a 5!!!!!! And he had been a SL6 for about 1 yr at said time.

Now try and explain that to your everyday league players.

Cornerman
12-21-2007, 11:41 AM
Do any of you know how APA ratings are calculated? I recently heard that the 2003 or earlier team manual showed this, but the APA does not want people to know how to do this, so they eliminated this from recent manuals. I don't know if this is true. I spoke to the my league operator and he said he was not allowed to explain it. The way the handicapping system works was never put in any APA manual.

I am not interested in hearing opinions on the calculations. I would like to know the actual algorithm. What I have seen so far does not make sense to me. I have a player on my team who was moved up to 4 from a three. He proceeded to lose two weeks in a row to players with levels of 2. Each match was hill/hill. He was not lowered. He then beat a 2 at hill/hill. This guy is clearly a 3. I have heard numerous similar scenerios. I have heard that going to vegas is a joke. Players tell me there are random ranking changes that seem arbitrary.
The basic algorithm of the APA Equalizer handicap system was put on the internet about 10 years ago. Suffice it to say, there have been changes to it since then, but the basics are pretty much the same.

Does the knowledge of the handicap system prevent/aid sandbagging? No. Sandbagging is going to be attempted regardless. And worse, the false accusations of sandbagging will continue, regardless. My experience tells me that more people claim sandbagging more than people actually sandbag. 95% of amateur poolplayers wouldn't know sandbagging if it was dumped in their lap. Amateurs have a wide swing in skill. That's why we're amateurs.

Different regions will play stronger or weaker, so a SL-6 in a strong area would be an easy SL-7 in a weaker region. So, in regional tournaments or Vegas Nationals, players from a relatively weak areas will think others must be sandbagging to have such low handicaps. Also, any player from a mid-level SL-7 and below will have swings in their games that could make them shoot like a Skill Level two levels down. We're amateurs. It happens.

Let it lie dormant. The knowledge of the handicap system doesn't help anyone. The guy who put the system on the internet could have got in some serious trouble.

Fred

StormHotRod300
12-21-2007, 11:47 AM
RRfireblade

Since you acknowledge the Handicap system is based on your best matches. What determines your best matches? Only when your winning?

Like you also said, you could have two guys playing a good match and the loser still wont go down. So how is someone suppose to know just by looking at the score sheet, that they played a good match?

Here is an example, you have a SL7 playing a SL5 in 8ball. 5-3 race. the 7 wins the lag, breaks makes a few balls misses, the 5 runs a few balls and misses and the 7 wins the game, chalk up 1 inning. Now Repeat that for the next 5 games. and you might end up with a total of 10 innings for the match. So if you looked at a score sheet with this, would it look close? yes, but how would you really know? I mean the SL5 might get to the table and miss his first shot. And the SL7 has a easy shot on the 8ball.

So how is a computer suppose to judge someones talent based on a score sheet?

klockdoc
12-21-2007, 11:53 AM
Well the L/O told me its because the handicap system determines your SL based on your BEST last 10 matches. OK, so if you are losing constantly week in and week out, against SL 4's, Your last 10 BEST matches are still going to be the ones that you WON months ago.



The way I remember it, it is based on the BEST out of your last 10 matches. Meaning that when you play the 11th match, the 1st drops off; you play the 68th match, the 58th drops off, etc and so on. It is averaged on those ten.

The formula for the APA handicap system was developed by one person and to this day, he is still working for the APA under contract. APA tried to develope their own system once, but, later decided against it and went back to the original developer.

catscradle
12-21-2007, 11:58 AM
...The formula for the APA handicap system was developed by one person and to this day, he is still working for the APA under contract...
For some reason, I'm picturing this skinny geek with 1/2 inch think glasses in a basement working with a slide rule and a chalk board with equations all over it.
:rolleyes: :D

RRfireblade
12-21-2007, 12:00 PM
So how is a computer suppose to judge someones talent based on a score sheet?


Quality of the scorers.

IMO , the number 1 reason for errors in SLs as I've seen it since I've been in league.

Most commonly , incorrect inning scoring and incorrect defensive play scoring.

Stuff I've seen this last year alone :


I ran into a guy that marked every miss as a defense cause he said if you you didn't make it then it was defensive.

I've ran into countless others who never mark defensive shots at all and/or couldn't tell what one was anyway.

And others who end the inning after each game regardless of who carries over.

Handicapping is never easy nor is it ever perfect. You can't please everyone all the time. For everyone that you think is at the wrong lever , there are 2 people that feel the same about you. :)

All I can say is if it gets so bad you are not enjoying it , then maybe handicap leagues are not for you. There are always head to head Tournys instead. ;)

I look at it this way , "I" determine my own outcome on the table. If I play to my best ability and lose , then my opponent played better than me and there must be a lesson in there somewhere. The trick sometimes is to find it.

My best lessons have come from my worst loses , I'll take that over an easy win every day.

A close second to that is the opportunity to play a better player regardless of outcome.

IMO.

RRfireblade
12-21-2007, 12:03 PM
The way I remember it, it is based on the BEST out of your last 10 matches. Meaning that when you play the 11th match, the 1st drops off; you play the 68th match, the 58th drops off, etc and so on. It is averaged on those ten.



I don't personally know but I've heard in some instances where it may be 20.

ribdoner
12-21-2007, 12:03 PM
I've witnessed "matches" where the team captains just filled out scoresheets...

One of the teams did well (top 5) in VEGAS but got popped for baggin(LOL)

BIATCHED like crazy when they got home...............GO FIGURE??:confused:

Cornerman
12-21-2007, 12:04 PM
RRfireblade

What determines your best matches? Only when your winning?
No. That should be enough, right?

All the information that people put down on the scoresheet is entered into the software. It is certainly possible that one of your best matches happened in loss.

Fred

trustyrusty
12-21-2007, 12:08 PM
I've witnessed "matches" where the team captains just filled out scoresheets...

One of the teams did well (top 5) in VEGAS but got popped for baggin(LOL)

BIATCHED like crazy when they got home...............GO FIGURE??:confused:

LOL - scoresheets? we don't need no stinkin' scoresheets!

In Vegas we ran across a team that had never marked a safety....never. We showed them how, and dispatched of them 3-0.

Andrew Manning
12-21-2007, 12:09 PM
Do any of you know how APA ratings are calculated? I recently heard that the 2003 or earlier team manual showed this, but the APA does not want people to know how to do this, so they eliminated this from recent manuals. I don't know if this is true. I spoke to the my league operator and he said he was not allowed to explain it.

I am not interested in hearing opinions on the calculations. I would like to know the actual algorithm. What I have seen so far does not make sense to me. I have a player on my team who was moved up to 4 from a three. He proceeded to lose two weeks in a row to players with levels of 2. Each match was hill/hill. He was not lowered. He then beat a 2 at hill/hill. This guy is clearly a 3. I have heard numerous similar scenerios. I have heard that going to vegas is a joke. Players tell me there are random ranking changes that seem arbitrary.

From my experience, the algorithm is very slow to react sometimes when a player is at the wrong ranking for their actual ability level. It's just a very imperfect system. I went on a streak when I was a 5 (had been a five for a session or two, and had become a very strong 5) where I won something like 12 out of 13 consecutive matches, many of them with less than 2 innings per game, and two or three of them against 7's. Never at any point did I intentionally or unintentionally run up my innings, since I broke really hard and usually tried to run out even though I didn't get all the way most of the time, meaning when it was my break, the table was generally wide open for the entirety of the rack, and so the innings were usually low.

Finally I got a letter in our team's envelope saying enough people had complained about me being underrated that they were manually changing me to a 6. I didn't have a problem with it because I felt it was entirely fair, I just thought it was funny that the algorithm couldn't seem to figure out what was plain for anyone to see: I definitely should not have been ranked a 5.

So I would just give your teammate some time, and presumably his skill level will adjust after a while. If not, take your case to your LO and support it with information about the guy's record, and see if you can get a manual adjustment. They should know the system doesn't end up being an accurate assessment for each and every player, even if there is no foul play or anyone trying to manipulate their ranking.

-Andrew

TheBook
12-21-2007, 12:29 PM
The formula from a 1986 rule book shows a formula for averaging the best scores. After 10 matches are played than the 5 best scores are used to calculate a average innings per games won. Old scores are permanently marked out always leaving 10 active scores. The handicap isn't based on matches won, only games won. It also doesn't let a few bad weeks affect your playing skill rating.

Just play as best as you can and be honest about it. The handicap system is to give everyone a fair chance and make the game enjoyable for all. It is a chance for lessor players to be on a team and not be intimidated by the better players that play on the heads up leagues. Many times during our league play the match will go hill/hill and each player needs to make only one or two balls to win the match. When this happens you know that the system is working.

In the book it has 0 to 2 innings is a super pro, over 7 innings is a H-2. You can fill in everthing in between yourself.

Gregg
12-21-2007, 01:15 PM
APA really does a pretty decent job, overall. I've seen worse. A lot worse.

I feel like the APA puts way too much emphasis on a players best performance.

Playing over your head or getting a bit lucky on a bar table can make you go up, and again, as said, it's a long road from there to drop back down.

frankncali
12-21-2007, 01:30 PM
Truth of the matter is that there is a small perentage of APA players that are two SLs or more underrated but there is a high percentage or APA players that think that they are 2 or more SLs underrated.

The APA is what it is and its good for pool IMO. Many players are playing and having a good time doing so. Friendships are formed.

If anyone thinks that they are going to make any money in the APA then they are mistaken. Very few true hobbys allow you to profit from doing what you like to do.

The handicap system is ok. I think one real problem is that we have players that are legit c-d-e level players out there making assessments on
someones game.
I cant count the times that I have heard players talk about a low rted players run of a few balls like it was Secretariet coming down the home stretch.

I would say that at least 75% of games lost in the APA are do to lack of skill by one of the player rather than too much skill by the opponet.

Bamacues
12-21-2007, 02:13 PM
Truth of the matter is that there is a small perentage of APA players that are two SLs or more underrated but there is a high percentage or APA players that think that they are 2 or more SLs underrated.

The handicap system is ok. I think one real problem is that we have players that are legit c-d-e level players out there making assessments on
someones game.
I cant count the times that I have heard players talk about a low rted players run of a few balls like it was Secretariet coming down the home stretch.

I would say that at least 75% of games lost in the APA are do to lack of skill by one of the player rather than too much skill by the opponet.

Tap, tap,tap, Frank. Real valid points. I don't know how many times I have watched someone break and clear most of the obstructions off a table, and give up the wide open table to a decent SL 4 who runs out a rack that Ray Charles could have run out, and they start crying about how they are sandbagging. And yes, you find out much better what your true skill level is at the national tournament. I am 8-ball SL7, and once in Vegas, a team played a SL3 against me who won the lag, broke and ran, then made 8 on break...game over...doo-doo occurs...that wasn't as bad as the 9 ball SL 2 who played my youngest son, a 9 ball SL6 at the time, broke and ran first rack, broke and ran 6 balls second rack...my son was down 16-0 before he shot. A 46-3 race is a tough one to win.
Joe

ScottW
12-21-2007, 02:42 PM
Tap, tap,tap, Frank. Real valid points. I don't know how many times I have watched someone break and clear most of the obstructions off a table, and give up the wide open table to a decent SL 4 who runs out a rack that Ray Charles could have run out, and they start crying about how they are sandbagging. And yes, you find out much better what your true skill level is at the national tournament. I am 8-ball SL7, and once in Vegas, a team played a SL3 against me who won the lag, broke and ran, then made 8 on break...game over...doo-doo occurs...that wasn't as bad as the 9 ball SL 2 who played my youngest son, a 9 ball SL6 at the time, broke and ran first rack, broke and ran 6 balls second rack...my son was down 16-0 before he shot. A 46-3 race is a tough one to win.
Joe

These are the times you call a ref over and get people put on the 'watch list'. They'll raise someone up on-the-spot if they feel it's warranted.

StormHotRod300
12-21-2007, 06:26 PM
No. That should be enough, right?

All the information that people put down on the scoresheet is entered into the software. It is certainly possible that one of your best matches happened in loss.

Fred


Like I said earlier " what determines what your best matches are? "

Because if a SL6 is playing a SL5 and the 6 breaks and makes several of his balls and is left only with the 8ball and the SL5 runs down and misses the 8ball, and the 6 wins, ok thats one inning. Now repeat this, over 10 games, and they might average 1 to 3 innings per game, not counting saftey's or w/e But if someone leaves the table wide open, for a SL5 to shoot away at, and the games end with 0 - 1 inning's does it show that the Breaker ran down to the 8ball? No. Does it show that the SL5 only had 4 balls to actually make after the break on a open table when his opponent cleared off the table? No

All it shows is the game ended with 0 - 1 inning. How is that to show someones skill level?

Now take this on the flip side, a SL3 breaks and runs all of thier balls off the table but misses the 8ball, a SL5 gets to the table and runs out the table and wins. Now repeat this for thier match and what does it show? If you end up with 10 innings or less it looks like a good match, but, the SL3 could have misses a easy shot on several of the games only to leave the SL5 with two easy shots for the win. So your still only getting 1 inning a game, maybe 2. And in the book that is consider'd a SL6/7 level.

What the score sheet doesnt show is the games that the SL3 is running 4 or 5 balls off the table when they get to the table. only to leave the SL5 a easy out.

Does this mean you are suppose to raise the SL3 to a SL4 because they MADE the match look closer than it actually looks?

Jaden
12-21-2007, 06:40 PM
I wish somebody knew the law well enough to explain the law theory there. It doesn't make sense to me. I can see it being illegal to have worked for them signing an agreement then revealing the "secret", finding out the "secret" and using it for a competing league, breaking in somewhere and stealing the "secret"; but I just can't see what law theory is that would make it illegal to print the "secret" if I found it out by some unknown means. I'm not saying you're incorrect, I just don't see a viable theory.
At any rate, I don't think it works very well anyway because of all the sand-bagging.


There is no judge in this country that will or can rule that proprietary information cannot be publicised by someone who is not contractually required to keep that information secret. The only exception is classified government information, but in most cases the government wouldn't make a case of it because that would legitimize the information.

I know specifically of a book that was published by a former US intelligence operative (sorry I'm not going to reveal the title), who published a book with lots of classified information and because it was published and already out there before the government realized it, they didn't prosecute him and didn't try to have it removed because that would notify the public that the information was accurate.....

Cornerman
12-21-2007, 06:44 PM
Like I said earlier " what determines what your best matches are? "


Unfortunately, you're asking two (or three) questions in your one question. Without the answer to the first, nothing will makes sense to your second or third.

You're asking how the Equalizer handicapping system works, and then asking whether it truly answers anything about a person's handicap all in one question.

The first part of the question can be answered through careful searching. At least, it can be reasonably answered, and it can make reasonable sense. The Equalizer basis its handicap on total innings per win, with a limiting factor based on things like winning percentage, opponent strength, table size, etc. Win or lose, this final number for that particular match is what it is. The lower the number, the "better" your match was. They (the APA) push towards keeping the handicap as high as possible by formulating the handicap based on the players best games (based on that number they just calculated), as opposed to their average game.

The second part of the question is then an easy answer: you have to pick your method of handicapping and go with it. If anyone has to ask the legitimacy of why a league corporation chooses to use XXX as the basis of their system, then they need to find a different league. The APA chose a long time ago to use innings per win as their base and gone forward from there. End of Story. Love it or leave it.


Fred

trustyrusty
12-21-2007, 07:29 PM
your best matches are when you break and make the eight, your opponent breaks makes the eight and scratches, or you break and run (followed by your opponent breaks dry or scratches and you run out, of course). I've had the situation in a match where I won because of a 8 ball break and scratch followed by an 8 ball break by me, and then a 1 inning game (when I was a four).....I wasn't immediately raised, but I knew it'd be soon. 2 of the games were PURE LUCK, but I asked in Vegas if that was taken into consideration...the answer was NO.

d_flash
12-21-2007, 09:22 PM
I've read all that is available on the APA and here's my take...

I played APA for years. I quit because there is no rhyme or reason to the so-called equalizer handicap system.

I was a SL3, had not won in the first 3 sessions, played a SL2 who beat me pretty good. that should have made that person move up, since the SL's move around a lot early on (this person was new; 4th match...). NOT !... next week my SL was a 4, the SL2 was still a 2 ! :confused:

I always suspected the the LO has a lot more control over skill levels than any handicap system. My verification is as follows: I complained to my team captain, no help. I complained to my LO, no help. I complained to the APA in a series of emails, no help. then I told the LO that I was not going to win any until my handicap was adjusted/corrected. guess what ? a week later my level was back to a three. I know in that time nothing that I did by winning or losing changed anything. the LO changed my ranking at will and can change any other members in his league area at will.

before we go to the competition before Vegas, the LO always asked each captain if anyone's SL needed adjusting (either up or down) and their SL was adjusted on-the-spot. :eek:

these stories are only a few that I witnessed....sandbagging, arbitrarily changing SL's up or down...where's the "equalizer" ? :mad:

poolcuemaster
12-21-2007, 09:29 PM
I wish I knew this same information, because I don't see how some of the rankings are fair. There are guys who have played pool for 20 years, and only "come with it" when they absolutely have to.

My wife had one good match during our City Championship, she basically broke in or the opponent hung up every point she made. She moved from a 1 to a 2. Since then, 12 matches later, she has not won once as a 2 and only 2 of those matches would she have won as a 1.

I have the same problem of fielding a team of 23, because all of my players actually try to improve. The 23 rule might be better served by a limit of the number of players above a certain rank, just my 2 cents.


Your wife won in a higher level APA tournament and that locks her in as a 2 and she should never go back to a 1 unless she writes a letter to APA home offices with a doctors proof she has health problems now that will prevent her from playing at a number 2 skill level. And the local operator will have to sign off on the request.--Leonard

poolcuemaster
12-21-2007, 09:39 PM
Partial Quote From D flash
before we go to the competition before Vegas, the LO always asked each captain if anyone's SL needed adjusting (either up or down) and their SL was adjusted on-the-spot.

This is asked of all captains so if they need to raise a players handicap before the City or National tournament to keep the team from being disqualified, and they never ask if the captain wants to lower the players skill level. That ain't happening.--

APA higher level referee-Charlotte NC -Leonard

RRfireblade
12-21-2007, 09:50 PM
Sure it does.

It shows who started the rack (Break) ,

How many balls made by each ,

The innings of the total game.

Any change in innings that was not defensive was a miss.





Like I said earlier " what determines what your best matches are? "

Because if a SL6 is playing a SL5 and the 6 breaks and makes several of his balls and is left only with the 8ball and the SL5 runs down and misses the 8ball, and the 6 wins, ok thats one inning. Now repeat this, over 10 games, and they might average 1 to 3 innings per game, not counting saftey's or w/e But if someone leaves the table wide open, for a SL5 to shoot away at, and the games end with 0 - 1 inning's does it show that the Breaker ran down to the 8ball? No. Does it show that the SL5 only had 4 balls to actually make after the break on a open table when his opponent cleared off the table? No

All it shows is the game ended with 0 - 1 inning. How is that to show someones skill level?

Now take this on the flip side, a SL3 breaks and runs all of thier balls off the table but misses the 8ball, a SL5 gets to the table and runs out the table and wins. Now repeat this for thier match and what does it show? If you end up with 10 innings or less it looks like a good match, but, the SL3 could have misses a easy shot on several of the games only to leave the SL5 with two easy shots for the win. So your still only getting 1 inning a game, maybe 2. And in the book that is consider'd a SL6/7 level.

What the score sheet doesnt show is the games that the SL3 is running 4 or 5 balls off the table when they get to the table. only to leave the SL5 a easy out.

Does this mean you are suppose to raise the SL3 to a SL4 because they MADE the match look closer than it actually looks?

frankncali
12-31-2007, 01:36 AM
Tap, tap,tap, Frank. Real valid points. I don't know how many times I have watched someone break and clear most of the obstructions off a table, and give up the wide open table to a decent SL 4 who runs out a rack that Ray Charles could have run out, and they start crying about how they are sandbagging. And yes, you find out much better what your true skill level is at the national tournament. I am 8-ball SL7, and once in Vegas, a team played a SL3 against me who won the lag, broke and ran, then made 8 on break...game over...doo-doo occurs...that wasn't as bad as the 9 ball SL 2 who played my youngest son, a 9 ball SL6 at the time, broke and ran first rack, broke and ran 6 balls second rack...my son was down 16-0 before he shot. A 46-3 race is a tough one to win.
Joe

Sorry Joe I have been gone

I agree with you. Very similiar to your SL 3 match I played a SL once and he broke and ran and everyone was hollering about his level. I was asked and said that I could care less and we will see what happens now. He breaks and runs a couple and misses. I win that one and keep the next racks kind of tight instead of wide spread and I win 5 in a row. Now we are hill-hill and he gets a chance to win but makes a position error and I win. All in all he could have been bagging but that one game didnt kill me.
Truthfully I thought he could have been a 4 but not a five and if he doesnt get a great spread again then I have a chance.

In 9ball once I am playing a 2 as a SL 9 and I break making nothing but leave the 1-2-3 all hung up. She makes them and kicks the 4-8 in and has the 5 roll up dead on the 9. A TO and she makes it. Next rack she
breaks makes 2 with the nine.
LOL now I am thinking its going to be really tough. I never got going and she killed me 19-1 with mainly easy shots and some luck. Worst loss ever.
I watched her for a few weeks and she never ran 3 balls. LOL

RunoutalloverU
12-31-2007, 03:23 AM
Reading all these posts makes me realize I am really really lucky not to be in the APA.

FLICKit
12-31-2007, 03:28 AM
Reading all these posts makes me realize I am really really lucky not to be in the APA.
Actually, depending on your level of play and what your pool goals are that may not necessarily be true...
I've read this thread, and many of the negatives aren't credible enough to make a rash judgement about....

First off, as is often common in these kinds of threads, there are the ones that are 100% negative. This is often demonstrated by looking for the absolutely worst case scenarios and act like it's a realistic occurence which then allows them to believe that system (or any other system, if put to that level of scrutiny) can not be plausible.

Stated a different way, if you analyze absolute worst case scenarios of any system (especially when allowed to go to the level of theoretical and without any real proof of actually occuring). And then be allowed to make worst case theories on how that system handles it... And with that as your grounding or starting point, now initiate a debate/argument... And then on top of that, not fully listen to or understand, but instead immediately discard any credible replies... Well I would think the outcome of that argument is already pre-determined.

Often times, the people who are directly involved in any system are more fully aware of all the credible scenarios, than most juvenile short term flunky know it alls (note: not talking about anyone in this thread specifically). Usually they already have either solutions or at the least relative solutions to any realistic scenario, long before the flunky ever came around. And they can implement those measures as a means of handling such situation in a reasonable and fair fashion. Often times, these system managers wouldn't even inform the general public of such prepared resolutions... There are multitudes of reasons... But, the flunky acts like he knows it all... cuz it makes him feel like not a flunky for once.


And then on the other hand, there are many out there, who will take a minor incident and magnify it in order to satisfy their personal crave to argue, complain and bash. Over 90% of the time, the proposed resolution from said arguer, always seems to be something that would magically work out in their favor. This is true, even if the same scenario happens again, but in reverse. Yet they still want the proposed solution to work out in their favor. And that arguer never seems to recognize the conundrum that they create. Pretty difficult for any system to appease that situation and still maintain any shred of credibility or integrity.

And then there are some, who genuinely dislike some facet and have a beef with it. And in many cases, are really just ignorant (not stupid) about the bigger picture of how it really works. So they act rashly or instead prematurely without true knowledge.

And lastly there are the ones that have a complaint and it's legitimate. Some try to handle it in a classy or respectable manner. Others take rage and vengeance and try to tear down and destroy. In those cases, their rage actually controls them, instead of them controlling their rage. Overall, those people are out there... but generally much much fewer than people claim (purely guessing probably less than 10% or even less than 5%).

What evidence is there of this... Well there's one clear, but indirect piece of evidence. The overall success of such business. If that organization is truly so bad all around and in every way, then they usually do not survive. If that business is successful at what they do, and remain successful over time, then the criticizers may not be open minded enough to see the nuances that make it successful.

Oddly enough, sometimes some seemingly obvious negatives, when viewed another way, can actually be brilliant positives.

Snapshot9
12-31-2007, 05:51 AM
Oh, don't get me started. I have had all the math courses offered in College and Graduate School through Operations Research, the highest math course offered, plus played for 46 years. Here are some of the problems:

1) APA has 9 levels, I believe, in 9 ball, and 8 in 8 ball. This means a larger number of players fall into each handicap level than in other leagues such as Valley (13 levels) or BCA (60 levels in 4 man, 75 in 5 man). This results in more sandbagging. The more discrete the handicap level is, the more the rating is true to the actual skill level.

2) They have people that develop these formulas that are not Math experts.
3) They use add, subtract, multiply, and division only because of software restraints, or a lack of knowledge about higher math functions that would result in better calculations.
4) They put too much emphasis on the start of a new session or setting an average, and not enough of the back end, and the LO is not able or doesn't know enough to be able to equalize it out.
5) Lessor players usually progress faster in handicap than top players do because they can learn what they don't know faster, and they have a lot more to learn.
6) Some inadequate handicap systems progress players above their true skill rating, such as making someone a 6 when an expert money player would rate them a 5 in true skill. (money rating).

And finally, Leagues today are more interested in Participation, getting people to play, than they are with the quality of play, especially the APA.

The BCA advanced league was the best league I ever played in, and the fairest in terms of handicaps, but even it allowed players in that were not really advanced players just to be able to fill it up for the session. For example, 75 point handicap system for 5 man team, 15 total points for 1 game, 8 ball. Iniatially, the advanced league required you have a 45 handicap to be qualified for the advanced league, then it dropped to 40, and then to 35 because they were not getting enough players for a session of play.

The BCA has always been known as the top league for competition, with Valley 2nd, and APA in last, as long as I can remember, and that directly relates back to how they handicap as I mentioned above.

And a very important fact is, that a good money players, ones that have played for considerable money sets, or hustled in the past, does not ever want to show you everything unless they absolutely have to. They always want you to underestimate their ability. There are those, sometimes, that will drop games in league to you, if they think, they can win $200-$500 off you in a money game after league is over. With Pool players, you have to follow the money, because that is what they are after.

APA7
12-31-2007, 06:48 AM
Oh, don't get me started. I have had all the math courses offered in College and Graduate School through Operations Research, the highest math course offered, plus played for 46 years. Here are some of the problems:
.

U also forgot to mention that UR brother is a big time lawyer in his podunk town and that makes U an authority on law too :rolleyes: :eek:

Brian

leehayes
12-31-2007, 07:13 AM
Truth of the matter is that there is a small perentage of APA players that are two SLs or more underrated but there is a high percentage or APA players that think that they are 2 or more SLs underrated.

The APA is what it is and its good for pool IMO. Many players are playing and having a good time doing so. Friendships are formed.

If anyone thinks that they are going to make any money in the APA then they are mistaken. Very few true hobbys allow you to profit from doing what you like to do.

The handicap system is ok. I think one real problem is that we have players that are legit c-d-e level players out there making assessments on
someones game.
I cant count the times that I have heard players talk about a low rted players run of a few balls like it was Secretariet coming down the home stretch.

I would say that at least 75% of games lost in the APA are do to lack of skill by one of the player rather than too much skill by the opponet.

TRUE TRUE!!! I agree with this 100%. Leagues like the APA have done a great deal to promote pool. I know personally I would not be playing pool now if it wasn't for some guy who asked me to join his team. Most fun I had in pool was those first two sessions in the APA. It's an imperfect system designed to introduce people to pool and one that keeps many people playing because they don't have to be so serious about it. When I decided that I had enough of being mediocre I started going to the hall and joining harder leagues and tournaments. Only been playing a few years and I play much better than alot of the guys that have been around a long time. Why, they enjoy the league for what it is and don't have a drive to get better. Those that sandbag in APA? Well, I totally agree with the poster who said there are only a few players that are 2 SL's off what they are...and alot who think they are.

OH, and let's not forget the biggest issue here....the system is designed to make money....period.

Rubyron
12-31-2007, 08:08 AM
In 9ball once I am playing a 2 as a SL 9 and I break making nothing but leave the 1-2-3 all hung up. She makes them and kicks the 4-8 in and has the 5 roll up dead on the 9. A TO and she makes it. Next rack she
breaks makes 2 with the nine.
LOL now I am thinking its going to be really tough. I never got going and she killed me 19-1 with mainly easy shots and some luck. Worst loss ever.
I watched her for a few weeks and she never ran 3 balls. LOL

A few years ago I had to play a lady who was SL1 in 9-ball. She barely knew how to hold a cue. I was a SL9 so she needed 14 (I think) to my 75 points. I remember thinking it was guaranteed win.

She wins the lag and breaks and makes a couple balls and has a couple hangers, which she makes. Then she misses and leaves me in jail. I kick and give her ball in hand. She makes a couple more hangers and misses leaving me in jail again. You see a trend here?

After 5 or 6 innings she finally misses and leaves me a shot at an open table. I remember asking the scorekeeper where we stood. He says "she needs 2, you need 66". I apologize to my team in advance for losing.

Then the rolls turn around and all start going my way until I get to 73 when I give her BIH with 2 hangers. She makes the first one and hounds the last one that is about 4" from the pocket. I end up winning 13-75. It could have easily been my worst loss ever.

Snapshot9
12-31-2007, 08:30 AM
U also forgot to mention that UR brother is a big time lawyer in his podunk town and that makes U an authority on law too :rolleyes: :eek:

Brian

No, he handles any legal stuff in our family, but I did check with him regarding gambling, and he checked directly with an ADA regarding it.

I did get an A in Business Law in College, does that count?

And why don't you put your location in your profile, so I will know if it is
'his podunk town' of a half a million people or 'our podunk town'???

(and my brother plays your speed or a little better).

FLICKit
12-31-2007, 08:38 AM
Oh, don't get me started. I have had all the math courses offered in College and Graduate School through Operations Research, the highest math course offered, plus played for 46 years. Here are some of the problems:

2) They have people that develop these formulas that are not Math experts.
3) They use add, subtract, multiply, and division only because of software restraints, or a lack of knowledge about higher math functions that would result in better calculations.


OK, Mr. Math expert. I challenge you to make some positive contributions...

What sort of formulas would a guy of your experience and caliber use to more accurately determine a player's skill level?

Don't lock into the 15 point BCA system... cuz that has its flaws as well. Seen lotsa people's points fluctuate quite a bit, as no reflection of their true ability. On top of that, it's often a 1 game system, where you play various people 1 game only. And the breaker is pre-determined. Sometimes some people do alotta gerry rigging to try to manipulate it so that their better players are breaking against their opponent's better players, because that can cause a big swing in the points. If your teammate breaks and runs-out, and the opponent doesn't get a chance that's a 15-0 in your favor. Whereas if the pre-determined break goes to the opponent, and he breaks and runs for 15-0 against ya. Then overall that's a 30 point swing factor. Of course, the theory is that it evens out over time. Me personally, I'm not saying it's a bad system. But, if you're looking at worst case scenarios of 1 system, you gotta be willing to do the same for others...

But the primary point, is the challenge to the math expert, what calculations would you do to more accurately reflect one's ability?

You have been challenged, do you accept?
YES or NO

leehayes
12-31-2007, 09:57 AM
A few years ago I had to play a lady who was SL1 in 9-ball. She barely knew how to hold a cue. I was a SL9 so she needed 14 (I think) to my 75 points. I remember thinking it was guaranteed win.

She wins the lag and breaks and makes a couple balls and has a couple hangers, which she makes. Then she misses and leaves me in jail. I kick and give her ball in hand. She makes a couple more hangers and misses leaving me in jail again. You see a trend here?

After 5 or 6 innings she finally misses and leaves me a shot at an open table. I remember asking the scorekeeper where we stood. He says "she needs 2, you need 66". I apologize to my team in advance for losing.

Then the rolls turn around and all start going my way until I get to 73 when I give her BIH with 2 hangers. She makes the first one and hounds the last one that is about 4" from the pocket. I end up winning 13-75. It could have easily been my worst loss ever.
That's why it's called an equalizer system. It's supposed to make it possible for any player to win on any night.

Snapshot9
12-31-2007, 10:45 AM
yes, I will accept that challenge, but understand, I will have to give it some thought. I said the calcs would result in better calcualtions, which means truer to the skill level, but they might have to be more complex to get there.

But, I can tell you it has to do with variances, standard deviations, and the number of occurences outside of the standard deviations. I'll be the first to admit it has been a lot of years since I have actively practiced higher math and statistics. The last time was when I was assigned to statisticians to develop linear regression models for them about 11 years ago in a pharmaceutical company.

juggler314
12-31-2007, 10:49 AM
"The only reason why someone would be interested in the specifics of a handicap formula is if they were interested in exploiting it. Good luck with that."
Jude, I teach math. I find calculations like this interesting. I also would like to know why some players do not go down even when they consistently lose to lower players. If the APA protects this so some do not try to start their own leagues using someone else's hard work I respect that. You are out of line to suggest that I would only want to exploint their system. You do not know me or why I want this information. This is why in my original post I said I was not interested in opinions. I am only interested in the calculations. If this is not available so be it. Please keep you opinions to yourself.

Well...I majored in math, and if you have enough data you can basically reverse engineer it. There's enough annecdotal evidence of what factors go into it to limit how many variables you'll have. Just get a few dozen teams to forward you there scoresheets every week. Keep track of every stat...there are plenty of people that have already done this and have database models that track SL's fairly closely.

I totally agree with Jude though - while it is "interesting" to know how the formula works. The only real reason to know it is to exploit it. No one is ever going to take this knowledge and go "oh if I do this that and the other thing I can bump my SL *up*"

Also as has been discussed at extreme length before, knowing the actual formula will only help you within your local league setting. Once you get to vegas all bets are off because the SL's are highly dependant on the local level of competition.

FLICKit
12-31-2007, 10:58 AM
yes, I will accept that challenge, but understand, I will have to give it some thought. I said the calcs would result in better calcualtions, which means truer to the skill level, but they might have to be more complex to get there.

But, I can tell you it has to do with variances, standard deviations, and the number of occurences outside of the standard deviations. I'll be the first to admit it has been a lot of years since I have actively practiced higher math and statistics. The last time was when I was assigned to statisticians to develop linear regression models for them about 11 years ago in a pharmaceutical company.
Yeah, I understand exactly what you mean... with the variances, standard deviations...

I understand that it's not necessarily a simple challenge. But it could be a fun and maybe even useful mathematical discussion for some. So, I'm ready and willing too... Hopefully it'll prove interesting...

FLICKit
12-31-2007, 11:03 AM
....
I agree with alot of what you say... We'll never know the true formula and that's fine with me... And even if you learn it at one level, there will still be other levels which will render that knowledge useless. It could be interesting just to inquire about what factors would be useful to consider when engaging in such an endeavor.
More of a general understanding (a bit more specific), than an actual secret formula threatening activity.

KMRUNOUT
12-31-2007, 11:43 AM
Reading all these posts makes me realize I am really really lucky not to be in the APA.

(this is NOT directed at RunoutalloverU)

Thats funny, for me, reading these posts confirms for me the average persons hopelessness when it comes to understanding statistics and even simple averages. Please rethink your opinion on the APA based on these things:

1) All the examples of particular performances of various players at various skill levels really means almost NOTHING. The handicap system is designed to be an AVERAGE. This means that there is NO LIMIT to how well you can shoot, as long as you have enough bad scores to offset this performance. A 3 can break and run 2 racks and out, as long as his average score is a 3 level. This is the simple version. There are however "limits" imposed by the Equalizer system. This means that for a 3 with a particular average, there is a score for him that if he exceeds it, he will automatically be raised independent of his average.
2) In order for the average to be accurate, the average must be calculated using many scores. 20 is the magic number for the APA. Your average is computed based on the best 10 of your last 20 scores. You average is primarily based on your innings/game. You win % factors in, but not too much. You could lose every single week, but if you win a couple of games with low innings in each of these matches, you will have a high skill level.
3) Almost every single statement on here about how the handicap system is wrong is wrapped around TOTALLY flawed logic. "I played this guy and lost. My SL went up and theirs stayed the same..." What were the numbers? What exactly was your average going into this match? How many scores were on each of your records? What exactly were the innings/game for the match? If you don't know the answers, then it would be best NOT to criticize the system that you clearly do not understand.
4) Correct scorekeeping is the best way to essentially eliminate sandbagging. If the player did not intend to pocket a ball, it is a defensive shot. This concept is crystal clear, but people refuse to follow it. The scorekeeper is the person who decides whether or not the player was trying to pocket a ball. The two team's scoresheets don't have to match. If you diligently mark all intentionally missed shots as defensive, you will not allow people to get away so easily with sandbagging.

If people follow this system, it works fairly well. There are two problems. One is that many people are either deceitful or stupid. Sandbagging requires deceit on behalf of the sandbagger AND stupidity on the part of the scorekeeper. The other problem is that (see above) people are ..ahem...stupid. They don't understand this type of thing--but the part that I feel qualifies one as stupid is when even though one doesn't understand the system, they spot condemnations of the system based on reasoning that sounds good to them but is actually not well thought out. This causes many negative beliefs about the APA and systems like it, and potentially promotes the concept that the only way to succeed is to cheat.

Not trying to target anyone here. This is a general plea to everyone to learn a little more about averages, statistics, and the way they work in real life examples before making under-researched claims about an otherwise adequate system.

Thanks,
KMRUNOUT

rope_one
12-31-2007, 12:20 PM
Just out of curiosity, if someone posts a link to the APA formula does that get them banned here?

juggler314
12-31-2007, 01:55 PM
Your wife won in a higher level APA tournament and that locks her in as a 2 and she should never go back to a 1 unless she writes a letter to APA home offices with a doctors proof she has health problems now that will prevent her from playing at a number 2 skill level. And the local operator will have to sign off on the request.--Leonard

This exemplifies one bad thing with the APA - the lack of any response at higher level to things that are obviously "flukes". I had a 2 (8 ball) on my team. We go to vegas. First match she beats a 4 2-0. Usually this would be a great thing, but here's the deal. My 2 won both games by the opponent scratching on the 8 ball. My 2 only made 4 balls total the entire match. My 2 did not safety her opponent to create a situation where a scratch on the 8 might be likely, the 4 screwed up and went for difficult 8 ball shots and accidentally scratched both times.

The rub is that they raised my 2 to a 3. Admittedly she was "close" to going up. But to be raised off of a basically "null" win (that is something like this should not affect your stats) is ridiculous. And now she's stuck as a 3 no matter what.

I brought this up to the TD onsite, he basically said "well she was close and this just pushed her win record up enough to tip her over". I said, fine I understand how the thing works, but given the particular situation it seems slightly ridiculous. He said "too bad, that's what the computer said". I think that is a *textbook* example of when to override the computer, but they didn't.

Now I will probably have to kick her off the team because she was only hovering at a 50% win record as is, as a 3 she's winning about 16% and does not practice outside, and basically has no hope of ever getting better. This sucks because I don't like to kicke people off my team for reasons beyond anyone's control.

Banks
01-01-2008, 01:53 PM
Ok, a lot of people seem to be (intentionally?) forgetting a few things.

First, if an SL2 (etc) breaks and runs and is obviously playing like a 6+, you should be making notes on your score sheet.

Second, how many games have you had that went in your favor or during which you were shooting lights out (for you) and then have to deny to others that you were sandbagging? This easily goes the other way and I have to remind people of it fairly regularly.

Third, ratings have hidden decimal points in there. You could have been barely holding onto your 4 rating for a year before going down to a 3 or up to a 5. You can argue that with someone all day, with them saying they should be a 6 and you saying they should be a 7, yadda yadda yadda.

If I remember correctly, if you were a 5 in a higher-level-tourney, you may go back down to a 4 during league play, but you will be required to play again as a 5 (unless you receive an exception) if you play in another HLT. I've seen someone do "well" in an HLT and go down - it is possible.

kaznj
01-01-2008, 06:20 PM
Juggler brings up a perfect example of a big flaw in the system.

FLICKit
01-01-2008, 06:32 PM
Juggler brings up a perfect example of a big flaw in the system.
Yep... It has flaws. The system is not perfect. Nor is any other system out there. I wouldn't expect any system ever in existence to ever be perfect. Even playing 100% straight up even races, isn't perfect either.

So, it has a flaw. Other systems do too. Many other systems have much bigger or worse flaws.

Does it really matter that much?

jcrack_corn
01-01-2008, 06:36 PM
you can publicly publish any information you have legally obtained.....this is not Cuba.

If you find the formula for Coke on a sidewalk in atlanta, you can post it on the internet and there is nothing that can be done about it.


First, the APA (nor Kaznj) is interested in loose interpretations of the handicap system. What they are protecting (and what Kaznj is seeking) are the specifics of how handicaps are calculated. The APA is a multimillion dollar business that has hundreds of people who have invested quite a bit of money into its success. A court may just make you shut-up but trust me, you'll be forced to shut-up. It's not public information. It's deliberately kept secret. The APA can easily argue that their success relies on this formula's secrecy.


The only reason why someone would be interested in the specifics of a handicap formula is if they were interested in exploiting it. Good luck with that.

bubsbug
01-01-2008, 07:13 PM
I have read most of the post and I am supprised that no-one has mentioned anything about an applied score! No matter what you shoot, spacifically if it is really really bad you are going to get an applied score somewhere within you range for your skill level. It is an easy caculation that fits into the so called magical formula. This is why you can loose a lot and never go down, because your apply score is keeping you in you skill level bracket.

Koop
01-01-2008, 07:25 PM
I have read most of the post and I am supprised that no-one has mentioned anything about an applied score! No matter what you shoot, spacifically if it is really really bad you are going to get an applied score somewhere within you range for your skill level. It is an easy caculation that fits into the so called magical formula. This is why you can loose a lot and never go down, because your apply score is keeping you in you skill level bracket.

Absolutely correct. I goof with my LO once in a while asking him when I will go down to a five. He laughs and said that I will NEVER see a five again. He knows I am joking around but did explain the applied score to me.

Edited to add: If more people knew about this there would probably be less sandbagging as it's doing a lot of people no good anyway.

sde
01-01-2008, 07:33 PM
Just out of curiosity, if someone posts a link to the APA formula does that get them banned here?
It has been posted before and I do not believe anyone was banned for it.

Steve

rope_one
01-01-2008, 07:36 PM
It has been posted before and I do not believe anyone was banned for it.

Steve


I was just curious as I don't think that post is on the board anywhere I could find. I sent a pm to Wilson to see what he said.

rope_one
01-01-2008, 07:47 PM
Wilson said he didn't care so here is the link I found by doing just a little searching. Gives a pretty good idea of how the formula probably works. I have no idea how acurate this is.

http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca512/notice.cgi?action=image_495

sde
01-01-2008, 07:59 PM
I have read most of the post and I am supprised that no-one has mentioned anything about an applied score! No matter what you shoot, spacifically if it is really really bad you are going to get an applied score somewhere within you range for your skill level. It is an easy caculation that fits into the so called magical formula. This is why you can loose a lot and never go down, because your apply score is keeping you in you skill level bracket.

The way I understand it the applied score is only applied in a match that you win.

As an extreme example let's say that you are a 6 playing a 5 and the 5 wins 4-2 in 42 innings :eek: with no defensive shots marked.

Your data to be entered into the system 42/2 = 21.0, but I believe the highest number of inning allowed is 7.0

The 5 would receive the applied score for a 5 which I believe is between 3 and 4 depending on the win %, could be 3.1 or 3.9 or anywhere in between.

I have no proof of this but from what I have read and been told I believe this to be true.

Steve

Jude Rosenstock
01-01-2008, 08:35 PM
you can publicly publish any information you have legally obtained.....this is not Cuba.

If you find the formula for Coke on a sidewalk in atlanta, you can post it on the internet and there is nothing that can be done about it.


You can see what Wikipedia has to say about Trade Secrets. There are other links regarding intellectual property which may also cast some insight as to what the APA can use to legally protect itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_secret

Look, I'm not a lawyer nor am I going to claim that I've done any real research. All I know is, I have heard of situations where the APA has taken successful legal action against persons who have made such information public. Based on other more famous trade secrets with companies such as Coca-Cola, I can't see why it would be a problem for the APA to protect its system in similar legal fashion.

Wazuela
01-02-2008, 12:07 AM
I just finished playing my third session as a SL 6 in 8-ball.
Out of 13 matches I played last session, I lost only 2 for an 85% match winning percentage. The 2 matches I lost went hill-hill.
Out of those 13 matches, I played 82 games and lost only 22, for a 73% game winning percentage.
I had 4 shutouts playing SL 6's and 7's, & 4 matches where I won 5-1.
I averaged just under 16 innings per match, with 13 being my best & 22 being my worst.
Only 2 break & runs though.:(
90% of the time I play the strongest player on the opposing teams.
People tell me all the time that I should be a SL 7 and have actually been accused of being a sandbagger!
I really want to be a SL 7- in fact it was my goal to be one by the end of 2007.:(
So I'm just wondering what the hell you have to do to be a 7?

FLICKit
01-02-2008, 12:13 AM
I just finished playing my third session as a SL 6 in 8-ball.
Out of 13 matches I played last session, I lost only 2 for an 85% match winning percentage. The 2 matches I lost went hill-hill.
Out of those 13 matches, I played 82 games and lost only 22, for a 73% game winning percentage.
I had 4 shutouts playing SL 6's and 7's, & 4 matches where I won 5-1.
I averaged just under 16 innings per match, with 13 being my best & 22 being my worst.
Only 2 break & runs though.:(
90% of the time I play the strongest player on the opposing teams.
People tell me all the time that I should be a SL 7 and have actually been accused of being a sandbagger!
I really want to be a SL 7- in fact it was my goal to be one by the end of 2007.:(
So I'm just wondering what the hell you have to do to be a 7?

Well, just briefly looking at ya... You didn't express your average innings/game. But based on the info, you played (82 + 22) 104 games in 13 matches providing an average of 8 games per match. With just under 16 innings per match, you would have an average of about 2 innings per game. Which according to those charts would put you right on the borderline of 6 / 7. And you have to overcome your rolling history of matches where you've played 6 level. So, seems like you're right on the brink.


Aside: This is one of those examples where people use the term sandbagger very inappropriately.
First of all, if you were an actual sandbagger, you'd be a bad one, because your rating is already too high. A true sandbagger is trying to keep their rating low, clearly you are not. Next of all if you were an actual sandbagger you wouldn't have such a high win % (beating everyone). You'd want to lose some, which would help you achieve the ultimate goal, keeping your rating down. Next of all, you wouldn't win so badly. You're slaughtering some of your opponents (considering that you always try to play opposing teams best, thus you aren't playing too many 2's and 3's and the like) and you've had shutouts against high level players, which of course is obviously counter to sandbagging because if a sandbagger wins, they don't want to win big.

Wazuela
01-02-2008, 12:30 AM
Well, just briefly looking at ya... You didn't express your average innings/game. But based on the info, you played (82 + 22) 104 games in 13 matches providing an average of 8 games per match. With just under 16 innings per match, you would have an average of about 2 innings per game. Which according to those charts would put you right on the borderline of 6 / 7. And you have to overcome your rolling history of matches where you've played 6 level. So, seems like you're right on the brink.
Actually I averaged 2.65 innings per game. A total of 82 games- 60 wins and 22 losses. I keep track of it on an Excel Spreadsheet.
I just read the chart that was provided by rope_one, and I see they don't count innings when you play safeties. I didn't know that.
I say I usually play 4-5 safeties per match; usually early safeties in the game, but when I look on the score sheet I'm only put down for a few, or none at all.
I don't think this is done intentionally, for some of the low skill level players who are keeping score might not realize that I played safety.
Now I know & I'll be sure to be marked down for them!

FLICKit
01-02-2008, 12:36 AM
Wazuela you are correct.... I quickly and wrongly read it as 82 wins with 22 losses, instead of 82 total with 60 wins and 22 losses. Looks like you made all the proper adjustments and figured the rest out...

Looks like you're on the right path and it shouldn't take you long...

Properly marking the defenses can have a big impact... Correcting that should help you as well.

frankncali
01-02-2008, 05:13 AM
The way I understand it the applied score is only applied in a match that you win.

As an extreme example let's say that you are a 6 playing a 5 and the 5 wins 4-2 in 42 innings :eek: with no defensive shots marked.

Your data to be entered into the system 42/2 = 21.0, but I believe the highest number of inning allowed is 7.0

The 5 would receive the applied score for a 5 which I believe is between 3 and 4 depending on the win %, could be 3.1 or 3.9 or anywhere in between.

I have no proof of this but from what I have read and been told I believe this to be true.

Steve

From what I know this is close.
However a couple differences...
1- Each player would have an applied score. If they win and the win was better than the applied then it counts. If it was worse then the AS counts. I dont think you can win and ever be lower than your AS.

2- If you lose and your average was still better than your applied score then that one would be counted. If worse then the worse one would be counted. But it takes a while for this to matter due to the SL being based on the top X amount out of the last N amount.

I am sure that they tweek the formula some every now and again.
No handicap system is perfect. Theres major sandbagging in bowling IMO.

Cory in DC
01-02-2008, 08:57 AM
Actually I averaged 2.65 innings per game. A total of 82 games- 60 wins and 22 losses. I keep track of it on an Excel Spreadsheet.
I just read the chart that was provided by rope_one, and I see they don't count innings when you play safeties. I didn't know that.
I say I usually play 4-5 safeties per match; usually early safeties in the game, but when I look on the score sheet I'm only put down for a few, or none at all.
I don't think this is done intentionally, for some of the low skill level players who are keeping score might not realize that I played safety.
Now I know & I'll be sure to be marked down for them!

If your average is 2.65 then you need to break and run more to go up to a 7, which is probably as it should be. The reason to base handicaps on innings is so that there will be some comparability (not perfect) across divisions and regions. So you may be able to smash everyone in your division consistently, but that doesn't necessarily make you a 7 (possibly, other players in your division should be lower?). It could be the case that if you played elsewhere, such as Vegas, you'd get steamrolled by other 7's.

As I understand the system, a win record like yours will keep you right on the cusp of going up to a 7, but won't raise you until you have a few 7 speed matches. So it should only take about 1-3 matches with 7-speed innings for you to go up.

Cory

bubsbug
01-02-2008, 01:24 PM
The way I understand it the applied score is only applied in a match that you win.

As an extreme example let's say that you are a 6 playing a 5 and the 5 wins 4-2 in 42 innings :eek: with no defensive shots marked.

Your data to be entered into the system 42/2 = 21.0, but I believe the highest number of inning allowed is 7.0

The 5 would receive the applied score for a 5 which I believe is between 3 and 4 depending on the win %, could be 3.1 or 3.9 or anywhere in between.

I have no proof of this but from what I have read and been told I believe this to be true.

Steve
Thats not how I understand it. Without giving spacific information its something like this. Once you know your apply score, we will make one up, let say 2.60 is it. Now let say after playing a match and after your caulations are total let say you shot a 3.25 and lost. This is playing like a SL 5 which is under you SL 6. Instead of getting the 3.25 score you will get the 2.60 score. This score will now stay with you for the next 20 matches. Say you loose the next match now your applyed score may be 2.63 and so forth and so on. If you win and you total is better then the applyed score then you get that score and it stayes with you for 20 games.

sde
01-02-2008, 06:41 PM
From what I know this is close.
However a couple differences...
1- Each player would have an applied score. If they win and the win was better than the applied then it counts. If it was worse then the AS counts. I dont think you can win and ever be lower than your AS.

2- If you lose and your average was still better than your applied score then that one would be counted. If worse then the worse one would be counted. But it takes a while for this to matter due to the SL being based on the top X amount out of the last N amount.

I am sure that they tweek the formula some every now and again.
No handicap system is perfect. Theres major sandbagging in bowling IMO.

First let me say that we will probably never know for sure how the system works, unless the APA discloses their secret and I for one do not see that happening.

But I know some one who for several years literally tracked the scores and innings for every player on his team and he swore that he could predict when a players S/L was going to change, usually up. He changed rosters every year and nearly every session so he had a fairly large base of info and he told me that the applied score does not pertain to matches that are lost.

The player losing the match gets credit for all innings minus safeties with a maximum of 7.

As you said the formula gets tweaked and perhaps this has changed in the past couple of years, I do not know.

Steve

jcrack_corn
01-03-2008, 10:00 PM
that is completely irrelevant as it has to do with non-disclosure contracts, stealing of secrets, etc.

if someone has LEGALLY obtained trade secrets (as in my example of the person finding the formula to Coke on the sidewalk), then you CAN disclose them. In fact the link you provided clearly states that, lol.


You can see what Wikipedia has to say about Trade Secrets. There are other links regarding intellectual property which may also cast some insight as to what the APA can use to legally protect itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_secret

Look, I'm not a lawyer nor am I going to claim that I've done any real research. All I know is, I have heard of situations where the APA has taken successful legal action against persons who have made such information public. Based on other more famous trade secrets with companies such as Coca-Cola, I can't see why it would be a problem for the APA to protect its system in similar legal fashion.

IA8baller
01-03-2008, 10:19 PM
Man am I ever glad I've never gotten into an APA league after reading this. :eek:

From what I understand I wouldn't be happy with the APA at all, I'd be too good for my own good. ;)

Snapshot9
01-04-2008, 04:21 AM
only 2 Break n Runs out of 82 games is not very good. Did you break only 41 times out of those 82 games?

As a comparison, I subbed on my brother's Valley team last session, played 32 games out of a possible 56 for the session. I broke 16 times and had 6 Break n Runs. I am a 9 out of 13, although I have been rated as high as an 11 in the past. Noone, to my recollection, has ever been rated higher than an 11 in Valley play here.

If you are playing a lot of safeties, that can be holding you back, although I don't know why you want to go up to a APA7 so fast, it gets very difficult to win as a team if the members have high handicaps, and I don't know about you, but I don't have fun losing, do you?

Plus, your stats tell me you don't have a very good break, nor a consistent one, since you play a lot of safeties during the match, and only have 2 BnR's.

APA7
01-04-2008, 05:21 AM
Plus, your stats tell me you don't have a very good break, nor a consistent one, since you play a lot of safeties during the match, and only have 2 BnR's.

Speaking of stats, Mr. higher math learning guy, did U have a chance to post up UR `better` handicap formula that U promised us? :confused: :rolleyes:

Brian

Snapshot9
01-04-2008, 06:37 AM
Speaking of stats, Mr. higher math learning guy, did U have a chance to post up UR `better` handicap formula that U promised us? :confused: :rolleyes:

Brian

No, I haven't. I haven't been actively involved in higher statistics for awhile, and to be honest with you, I don't know if I really want to put that much effort into it, nor have the time for it, only to have you 'cut it up' if I posted it. Obviously, you have a 'burr' under your saddle for me, for some unknown reason, per your past comments (probably pissed you off at some unknown time), and now you seem bent on revenge of some sort.... LOL

Obvioiusly, you are sold on the APA, that is great!!! I have played in the BCA, Valley, and APA, and just gave my opinion about each, as do many posters. The trick in handicapping is being able to gather a 'minimum' amount of information that will provide accurate results per each players true skill level. Gathering an 'excessive and tedious' amount of data becomes counter-productive after awhile especially if each team has to do it manually, but until 'automatic' scorers come into being for Pool like bowling has, we have to continue plugging away.

Now, if I can not convince you that the more handicap levels you have, the more accurate the handicap level is to true skill level, and less sandbagging then occurs, I don't know what to tell you.

The APA will NEVER solves it problems because they use less handicap levels than Valley or BCA, they consider their formulas proprietory, and they are not interested in adjusting them per member feedback, so it is simply a take it or leave it situation. I moved on to other leagues, you haven't, which is fine.

The whole purpose of league play and handicapping is just to get people to participate in playing, which has, to a point, adverse effects on the sport as a whole, as it used to be.

Information that is not calculated so much is strength of opponents handicapping, and averaging that on a national level, that would eliminate an APA5 in Texas being a ball better than an APA5 from another state.
Really, until there is some organization on a National level with top down type guidelines and rules that apply equally to all regions of the country, we just continue to have fragmented efforts on a regional basis.

I mean, wouldn't it be nice to play an APA3 at Nationals, and not get the feeling that he would be an APA5 where you come from?

FLICKit
01-04-2008, 08:31 AM
No, I haven't. I haven't been actively involved in higher statistics for awhile, and to be honest with you, I don't know if I really want to put that much effort into it, nor have the time for it, only to have you 'cut it up' if I posted it. Obviously, you have a 'burr' under your saddle for me, for some unknown reason, per your past comments (probably pissed you off at some unknown time), and now you seem bent on revenge of some sort.... LOL
Yeah, that was actually part of the reason why I put forth that challenge. It's very easy to talk and say, aw I could it do much better, but when it comes to actually doing it, it becomes quite more involved than one thinks.

The part that could've been interesting, is that sometimes people have some unique concepts of how they'd try to make things more detailed/complex. Sometimes those ideas can be intriguing. But translating from theoretical to actual is still the difficulty.

... The trick in handicapping is being able to gather a 'minimum' amount of information that will provide accurate results per each players true skill level. Gathering an 'excessive and tedious' amount of data becomes counter-productive after awhile especially if each team has to do it manually, but until 'automatic' scorers come into being for Pool like bowling has, we have to continue plugging away.
Hey! I've played in some National Leagues like that... It's especially frustrating when you gather 'excessive & tedious' amounts of information and their handicapping system provides even less accurate results as the APA.

Now, if I can not convince you that the more handicap levels you have, the more accurate the handicap level is to true skill level, and less sandbagging that occurs, I don't know what to tell you.
Understanding your point, but that premise is not an automatic fact. We have some rating systems here that have more levels than the APA, which in many ways are less accurate and more prone to sandbagging.

Just saying, I understand your general premise, and at times that can be true. You just seemed to be locked in on that as automatic fact. But, it's definitely not the truth. That premise can be and is false depending on the situation.


The APA will NEVER solves it problems because they use less handicap levels... they consider their formulas proprietory, and they are not interested in adjusting them per member feedback, so it is simply a take it or leave it situation.
One of the things that has surprised me about this thread, is that the APA system (although I'm not saying in any way is perfect, believe you me) is much more detailed and intricate and addresses much more potential issues, than I had imagined that they did. You know the thing that people aren't usually willing to admit, is when one criticizes some aspect of something, and then later discover that the criticism has already been addressed and reasonably handled long before that person came along and complained about it feeling superior, when actually they were just ignorant. I would say I'd fall guilty of that as well, (like many) by over-simplifying how their system works, and not really having enough data to make an accurate conclusion - as has been stated repeatedly by a previous poster.

...
Information that is not calculated ... is strength of opponents handicapping, and averaging that on a national level...
Just noting that you're stating that as fact. I understand your point of view on this. Just saying, without having sufficient details, you nor I know whether or how much this is actually addressed in their system. There are few out there that do. And even if they did know at one time, can't say for sure that it hasn't changed between then and now.

Knowing that the APA system changes, I'd make a logical assumption that it has been developed as an evolutionary process... Thus, it would be very possible to address issues and make improvements along the way, of which could include yours or any other people's pet peeves. So as far as your regional handicap equality, hypothetically (I know it would take a major effort for some to consider that this is even hypothetically possible, but please make an effort. Instead of getting locked in to the opposite point of view...), as I say hypothetically, if the APA included a regional equality (maybe while you were still there, or maybe after you left the league) how would you really know? At the same time, I'm not saying that they have done it, we all can have opinions on whether we believe that they are, just saying that WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE.

We can all have our points of views, but as was stated in the first paragraph, the proof is often in the nitty gritty details.

NOTE: This is not meant as an attack post (and I know I'm not the one who you say is hounding you)... Just pointing out a different perspective...

Andrew Manning
01-04-2008, 08:58 AM
I just finished playing my third session as a SL 6 in 8-ball.
Out of 13 matches I played last session, I lost only 2 for an 85% match winning percentage. The 2 matches I lost went hill-hill.
Out of those 13 matches, I played 82 games and lost only 22, for a 73% game winning percentage.
I had 4 shutouts playing SL 6's and 7's, & 4 matches where I won 5-1.
I averaged just under 16 innings per match, with 13 being my best & 22 being my worst.
Only 2 break & runs though.:(
90% of the time I play the strongest player on the opposing teams.
People tell me all the time that I should be a SL 7 and have actually been accused of being a sandbagger!
I really want to be a SL 7- in fact it was my goal to be one by the end of 2007.:(
So I'm just wondering what the hell you have to do to be a 7?

I recently went up to a 7 after having a long streak like the one you mentioned. Keep practicing, and keep teaching yourself to get all the way out when you have an open opportunity.

Do you play any 9-ball? Everyone says 14.1 is the game's best teacher, and in many ways they're right, but 9-ball is a great way to correct a lot of bad habits you might have as an 8-baller. For instance, I used to play area position on multiple balls a lot. That's great at the beginning of the rack, because it provides a very large margin of error, but meanwhile you've spent half the rack not aiming for a particular angle on your next ball. Then when you have 2 balls left before the 8, you have to get on the right side of the balls to run them out a high percentage of the time, and you get out of line and you miss. Then you won't likely have much to shoot at if you get back to the table, because you've only got one ball left. 9-ball will teach you to get a favorable angle on the correct side of every ball, and to get out on your first opportunity much more often.

-Andrew

Cornerman
01-04-2008, 08:58 AM
Wilson said he didn't care so here is the link I found by doing just a little searching. Gives a pretty good idea of how the formula probably works. I have no idea how acurate this is.

http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca512/notice.cgi?action=image_495
Well, I'm glad there are a lot of blacked out names on this document. The person who decided to copy & paste and repost the information (blacked out e-mail) though innocent by law could be regarded as an idiot. Yeah, the information was out there in public on the newsgroups, but to repost it was probably a dumb move. If it hadn't been reposted, it would have probably died in the bit bucket of DejaNews. I can't say anything about the original poster.

Fred

Snapshot9
01-04-2008, 10:35 AM
Yeah, that was actually part of the reason why I put forth that challenge. It's very easy to talk and say, aw I could it do much better, but when it comes to actually doing it, it becomes quite more involved than one thinks.

The part that could've been interesting, is that sometimes people have some unique concepts of how they'd try to make things more detailed/complex. Sometimes those ideas can be intriguing. But translating from theoretical to actual is still the difficulty.


Hey! I've played in some National Leagues like that... It's especially frustrating when you gather 'excessive & tedious' amounts of information and their handicapping system provides even less accurate results as the APA.


Understanding your point, but that premise is not an automatic fact. We have some rating systems here that have more levels than the APA, which in many ways are less accurate and more prone to sandbagging.

Just saying, I understand your general premise, and at times that can be true. You just seemed to be locked in on that as automatic fact. But, it's definitely not the truth. That premise can be and is false depending on the situation.


One of the things that has surprised me about this thread, is that the APA system (although I'm not saying in any way is perfect, believe you me) is much more detailed and intricate and addresses much more potential issues, than I had imagined that they did. You know the thing that people aren't usually willing to admit, is when one criticizes some aspect of something, and then later discover that the criticism has already been addressed and reasonably handled long before that person came along and complained about it feeling superior, when actually they were just ignorant. I would say I'd fall guilty of that as well, (like many) by over-simplifying how their system works, and not really having enough data to make an accurate conclusion - as has been stated repeatedly by a previous poster.

...

Just noting that you're stating that as fact. I understand your point of view on this. Just saying, without having sufficient details, you nor I know whether or how much this is actually addressed in their system. There are few out there that do. And even if they did know at one time, can't say for sure that it hasn't changed between then and now.

Knowing that the APA system changes, I'd make a logical assumption that it has been developed as an evolutionary process... Thus, it would be very possible to address issues and make improvements along the way, of which could include yours or any other people's pet peeves. So as far as your regional handicap equality, hypothetically (I know it would take a major effort for some to consider that this is even hypothetically possible, but please make an effort. Instead of getting locked in to the opposite point of view...), as I say hypothetically, if the APA included a regional equality (maybe while you were still there, or maybe after you left the league) how would you really know? At the same time, I'm not saying that they have done it, we all can have opinions on whether we believe that they are, just saying that WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE.

We can all have our points of views, but as was stated in the first paragraph, the proof is often in the nitty gritty details.

NOTE: This is not meant as an attack post (and I know I'm not the one who you say is hounding you)... Just pointing out a different perspective...

No, I understand what you are saying, and I appreciate your comments and point of view, and yes, sometimes I am guilty of making assumptions prematurely or without enough facts, as most people do sometimes.

But, that really is the point, we will never have enough 'facts' to make a conclusive decision whether their system is good or bad, all we see are the aftereffects, but computers are my profession, and I developed lots of mainframe systems, large and small, with many many types of calculations, and I can usually spot deficiencies in systems or calculations within a system just by the results, but more so, if I can actually see the programming. Plus, I have played Pool for a very long time, taught, run tournaments, leagues, etc..

The point you made about levels I can accept, as the 'accessory' calculations they use for each level has some effects also, but I would still
say, as a general rule, the more levels the more accuracy to true skill level.

Evidently, my disparaging words regarding the APA stepped on APA7's toes some, and somehow he felt like I was saying he really wasn't at the skill level he is at, and if that is so, I apologize, that was my not intent at all.

Actually, I do have a handicapping system, but it is based on 10 ball (you will say Bowliards), and once set, it converts over to any other league handicap, so, say for example, it would convert to an APA handicap, or BCA, or Valley handicap for 8,9, & normal 10 ball, but all the information, formulas, etc. was lost as a result of a head crash on my hard drive.
It allows people to get a proper BCA average used for a tournament, when that person only has an APA handicap, or between any of the leagues, which comes in handy for tournaments using 1 particular handicap system for the tournament.

I was tempted to try something though, to establish an 'efficiency' rating
like the Prouty formulas used in Basketball, simply going through the formulas and substituting the billiard equivalent factor for the basketball factor in the formulas. Might be an interesting experiment!

RRfireblade
01-04-2008, 10:59 AM
Here's the bottom line in all of this. It is IMPOSSIBLE to perfectly handicap ANYTHING.

Humans are not machines ,they don't perform identically everytime. They are CONSTANTLY moving up and down in skill level based on everything from learning the game to a b1tchy wife that night. It's endless and impossible to antisipate.

Even in this thread , there are only a handfull of examples of the 'flaws' yet it works fine for thousands of other players. It will always be like that. ;)

In addition , no handicap system can guarantee to catch all sandbaggers.

Cheaters cheat. We can only hope that in the end , Karma will handicap them. :)

Bigkahuna
01-04-2008, 11:51 AM
Ok guys here is my two cents.
I have been playing in this league for ten years and have brought five teams to LasVegas, and yes, it is a blast! My secret is that I make teams and then I make them a team, we all support each other. I had a guy tell me years ago a team that is a team will win.

Handicaps can be an advantage and I know how some of you guys feel when you see a three knock off your best five. This past year I went to Vegas again and I can tell you I watched over 50 matches. The incredible thing was that I never heard somebody say, "I played like crap". You could stand out in the smoking area and all you heard about was handicap this handicap that. Yes, there were some sandbaggers there. The APA has watchers to watch those players so there is a system for that. But, there were also players there who I believe just came to play and were prepared while others were sucking on the three foot long margaritas thinking they were just going to show up in any condition and clean house. I did do some observing and out of those fifty matches did not see very many people who played above their handicap. There were not that many good players there just like on my teams.

Look, lets just look at this from a big picture perspective. The APA is making pool players and it is making the pool world grow. The 23 rule does it! Lets say you have a team and are helping your players to get better or they get better on their own. Your team handicaps will go up and you will find your self saying the same thing I do every session were is my next good three. You split the team and look for new recruits and the league as a whole has growth. I have a pretty good number of people who did not play pool before joining my team and are now regular league players after leaving the team.

Our sport is in trouble, pool halls are having a hard time staying open, lets support the APA and have fun doing it. It is good to see the sport grow. Captains, you should be learning how to bring your players up so that they will win it is not always about making shots but good decisions count also. If you are a captain and bring on a seven make sure that person wants to help with the time outs and coaching it will really help everyone else out and give that person some sense of purpose. I am a seven myself and let me tell you it is not easy to sit there all night and watch a bunch of people play that do not know how to play. However, I do get something out of being the coach. Play by the rules,be a good sport, forget about the handicaps, make your team a team and have fun!

Scott Lee
01-04-2008, 12:48 PM
Bigkahuna...Tap, tap, tap! Excellent post, and something I have been saying for almost 20 years (to anybody who would listen)! Rep to you sir!

Scott Lee ~ former APA L.O.
www.poolknowledge.com

Ok guys here is my two cents.
I have been playing in this league for ten years and have brought five teams to LasVegas, and yes, it is a blast! My secret is that I make teams and then I make them a team, we all support each other. I had a guy tell me years ago a team that is a team will win.

Handicaps can be an advantage and I know how some of you guys feel when you see a three knock off your best five. This past year I went to Vegas again and I can tell you I watched over 50 matches. The incredible thing was that I never heard somebody say, "I played like crap". You could stand out in the smoking area and all you heard about was handicap this handicap that. Yes, there were some sandbaggers there. The APA has watchers to watch those players so there is a system for that. But, there were also players there who I believe just came to play and were prepared while others were sucking on the three foot long margaritas thinking they were just going to show up in any condition and clean house. I did do some observing and out of those fifty matches did not see very many people who played above their handicap. There were not that many good players there just like on my teams.

Look, lets just look at this from a big picture perspective. The APA is making pool players and it is making the pool world grow. The 23 rule does it! Lets say you have a team and are helping your players to get better or they get better on their own. Your team handicaps will go up and you will find your self saying the same thing I do every session were is my next good three. You split the team and look for new recruits and the league as a whole has growth. I have a pretty good number of people who did not play pool before joining my team and are now regular league players after leaving the team.

Our sport is in trouble, pool halls are having a hard time staying open, lets support the APA and have fun doing it. It is good to see the sport grow. Captains, you should be learning how to bring your players up so that they will win it is not always about making shots but good decisions count also. If you are a captain and bring on a seven make sure that person wants to help with the time outs and coaching it will really help everyone else out and give that person some sense of purpose. I am a seven myself and let me tell you it is not easy to sit there all night and watch a bunch of people play that do not know how to play. However, I do get something out of being the coach. Play by the rules,be a good sport, forget about the handicaps, make your team a team and have fun!

Wazuela
01-04-2008, 12:55 PM
only 2 Break n Runs out of 82 games is not very good. Did you break only 41 times out of those 82 games?

As a comparison, I subbed on my brother's Valley team last session, played 32 games out of a possible 56 for the session. I broke 16 times and had 6 Break n Runs. I am a 9 out of 13, although I have been rated as high as an 11 in the past. Noone, to my recollection, has ever been rated higher than an 11 in Valley play here.

If you are playing a lot of safeties, that can be holding you back, although I don't know why you want to go up to a APA7 so fast, it gets very difficult to win as a team if the members have high handicaps, and I don't know about you, but I don't have fun losing, do you?

Plus, your stats tell me you don't have a very good break, nor a consistent one, since you play a lot of safeties during the match, and only have 2 BnR's.
I appreciate your input and commend you for playing so well.
I don't know the rules for Valley, but for APA on the break, if you make 1 ball, you're designated those set of balls. It's not an open table.
So in a way, you're punished for making a ball.
If I had choice after the break, I would have more BnR's.
By the way, last session I had 5 BnR's & the session before I had 6.

Wazuela
01-04-2008, 01:15 PM
I recently went up to a 7 after having a long streak like the one you mentioned. Keep practicing, and keep teaching yourself to get all the way out when you have an open opportunity.

Do you play any 9-ball? Everyone says 14.1 is the game's best teacher, and in many ways they're right, but 9-ball is a great way to correct a lot of bad habits you might have as an 8-baller. For instance, I used to play area position on multiple balls a lot. That's great at the beginning of the rack, because it provides a very large margin of error, but meanwhile you've spent half the rack not aiming for a particular angle on your next ball. Then when you have 2 balls left before the 8, you have to get on the right side of the balls to run them out a high percentage of the time, and you get out of line and you miss. Then you won't likely have much to shoot at if you get back to the table, because you've only got one ball left. 9-ball will teach you to get a favorable angle on the correct side of every ball, and to get out on your first opportunity much more often.

-Andrew
Thanks for the support Andrew.
I think that's what this forum should be about-supporting each other.
I think it's ridiculous that people criticize others when it's very easy to hide behind a computer screen.
I'm not one to brag about how good I play, so I let my game speak for itself.

Yeah, I play 9-ball league; last session was my first session & I'm a SL 7.
It's pretty awesome. Both my 8-ball & 9-ball teams finished first in our division.:D

I've been playing alot of straight pool lately. I mostly play by myself because nobody at my pool hall like to play it. I can run in the 20's, but can't quite get past the second rack yet. But I will.

Thanks again and good luck to you in all your future pool endeavors.:)

txspaderz
01-04-2008, 01:22 PM
Actually I averaged 2.65 innings per game. A total of 82 games- 60 wins and 22 losses. I keep track of it on an Excel Spreadsheet.
I just read the chart that was provided by rope_one, and I see they don't count innings when you play safeties. I didn't know that.
I say I usually play 4-5 safeties per match; usually early safeties in the game, but when I look on the score sheet I'm only put down for a few, or none at all.
I don't think this is done intentionally, for some of the low skill level players who are keeping score might not realize that I played safety.
Now I know & I'll be sure to be marked down for them!

If you averaged 2.65 innings per win, than you are playing as a middle-low 6.


My thoughts - QUIT WORRYING ABOUT YOUR DAMN SKILL LEVEL.

The APA is an amateur league. It's made to give lower skilled players a chance to win. God forbid that happens and this poor old 82 year old woman is called a sandbagger because she beat a 5 in 2 games.

No handicap system is perfect. Never has, never will. If you don't like it, there are plenty of other leagues that you may prefer. The APA is about enjoyment of a game. If you are too worried about your skill levels, than you need to find another game, because you are not enjoying the game.

I enjoy going out to bars and watching new players go from a 2-6. It shows how much pool leagues do for the game. I love watching 2 SL9's play their match. If you really, really enjoy the game quit worrying about your level and play the game, enjoy company with friends, and shoot your best every match, and never give up. Than, only than, will you truly enjoy the game.

Wazuela
01-04-2008, 02:08 PM
If you averaged 2.65 innings per win, than you are playing as a middle-low 6.


My thoughts - QUIT WORRYING ABOUT YOUR DAMN SKILL LEVEL.

The APA is an amateur league. It's made to give lower skilled players a chance to win. God forbid that happens and this poor old 82 year old woman is called a sandbagger because she beat a 5 in 2 games.

No handicap system is perfect. Never has, never will. If you don't like it, there are plenty of other leagues that you may prefer. The APA is about enjoyment of a game. If you are too worried about your skill levels, than you need to find another game, because you are not enjoying the game.

I enjoy going out to bars and watching new players go from a 2-6. It shows how much pool leagues do for the game. I love watching 2 SL9's play their match. If you really, really enjoy the game quit worrying about your level and play the game, enjoy company with friends, and shoot your best every match, and never give up. Than, only than, will you truly enjoy the game.
Thank you for your comments.
I never said I didn't enjoy playing the APA league. I thoroughly enjoy it!
I didn't start this thread. I just simply had a question that pertained to the topic.
I would join a BCA league, but unfortunately I work weeknights, so it limits my league play to only Saturdays, otherwise I would be in a BCA league.

Furthermore, you don't know me or my attitude towards the game.
Everybody in the league loves me & I have a reputation as being a good loser . That is the few times I do lose.
I recently lost to a SL 3 in 9-ball. I'm a 7.
Did i get mad and throw a tantrum? No, I shook his hand told him he played a great game & that he deserved the win.
We talked for about a half hour after the match & have become friends.
In fact he's gonna stucco my house here soon at a substantial discount.

txspaderz
01-04-2008, 02:14 PM
I should apologize. That post looked like I was pointing it at you. It wasn't. It was the people in the thread complaining about sandbagging, and skill levels.

Sorry

Wazuela
01-04-2008, 02:22 PM
I should apologize. That post looked like I was pointing it at you. It wasn't. It was the people in the thread complaining about sandbagging, and skill levels.

Sorry
No problem man. I understand. We're cool.:D :D :D

Andrew Manning
01-04-2008, 02:30 PM
Thanks for the support Andrew.
I think that's what this forum should be about-supporting each other.
I think it's ridiculous that people criticize others when it's very easy to hide behind a computer screen.
I'm not one to brag about how good I play, so I let my game speak for itself.

Yeah, I play 9-ball league; last session was my first session & I'm a SL 7.
It's pretty awesome. Both my 8-ball & 9-ball teams finished first in our division.:D

I've been playing alot of straight pool lately. I mostly play by myself because nobody at my pool hall like to play it. I can run in the 20's, but can't quite get past the second rack yet. But I will.

Thanks again and good luck to you in all your future pool endeavors.:)

So you're versed in multiple games, and you're pretty good at them. Running 20's in 14.1 means you've got pretty good pattern knowledge and cluster control, and being a 7 in 9-ball means you know how to play the angles and move the cue ball. More than that, you're winning all the time, which a lot of people constantly fail to do no matter how much they improve their skills.

So what's ending those runs in 8-ball? When you don't get out after your first open shot in 8-ball, what is it that stopped you? Severely clustered table? Playing a pattern that is overly demanding of your positional skills, and thus getting out of line? Getting out of line carelessly and not having a makeable shot? Missing makeable shots? Being conservative and playing safe even when you have a runnable table, because you think the safe is higher percentage to win?

I'm not saying you're not playing 8-ball the right way, because you are winning your matches, and that says a lot. But if you want to go up to a 7, and if you want your game to take the next step to where you can compete with really strong 7's, I think you should examine the reasons you're not getting out (and it could very well be any or all of the reasons I mentioned above) and turn those weaknesses into strengths.

The last reason I mentioned (opting for conservative play instead of trying for the out) is not really a weakness per se, but you'll find that against very good players, you can't afford to turn the table over to them very often, even if it's on a successful safety. They might not have much chance of beating you if you leave them safe enough, but they have zero chance if they don't even get a shot, and against opponents who will run out on you from everywhere, you need those games where they don't get to shoot just to keep up.

Good luck with your goal, I'm sure 2008 won't pass without you seeing success; you're definitely on the right track.

-Andrew

Andrew Manning
01-04-2008, 02:32 PM
I recently lost to a SL 3 in 9-ball...
...
In fact he's gonna stucco my house here soon at a substantial discount.

I'm not sure I'd really call that a loss.

-Andrew

frankncali
01-04-2008, 06:17 PM
If you averaged 2.65 innings per win, than you are playing as a middle-low 6.


My thoughts - QUIT WORRYING ABOUT YOUR DAMN SKILL LEVEL.

The APA is an amateur league. It's made to give lower skilled players a chance to win. God forbid that happens and this poor old 82 year old woman is called a sandbagger because she beat a 5 in 2 games.

No handicap system is perfect. Never has, never will. If you don't like it, there are plenty of other leagues that you may prefer. The APA is about enjoyment of a game. If you are too worried about your skill levels, than you need to find another game, because you are not enjoying the game.

I enjoy going out to bars and watching new players go from a 2-6. It shows how much pool leagues do for the game. I love watching 2 SL9's play their match. If you really, really enjoy the game quit worrying about your level and play the game, enjoy company with friends, and shoot your best every match, and never give up. Than, only than, will you truly enjoy the game.


Not worrying about your SL is great advice.

When I hear people that are overly active in trying to get better I think about a movie. In Searching For Bobby Fischer the teacher is tired of hearing Josh only worry about getting his certificate. He takes out a handful and tells him he can be whatever he wants. He goes off on the poor kid.
APA ratings can be the same way. The goal shouldnt be about the rating but rather to learn to play better and make less mistakes. This will
increase your SL on its own.
Truthfully I have seen players do things that I know are solely designed to
increase their SL. Things like take safties when they did not shoot one or mark less innings.

Work on your game and what you can do to improve and you will gain SLs.
Heck I want my teammates to learn to win which sometimes can have only a little to do with what your SL is.

APA7
01-05-2008, 09:22 AM
Evidently, my disparaging words regarding the APA stepped on APA7's toes some, and somehow he felt like I was saying he really wasn't at the skill level he is at, and if that is so, I apologize, that was my not intent at all.



U got it wrong. The only thing I find annoying iz that U time N time again love 2 make false boasts N outright lies N whenever sumone calls U on it, U weasel out of what U said. Grow up son.

Brian

Beware_of_Dawg
03-31-2008, 09:56 AM
Wilson said he didn't care so here is the link I found by doing just a little searching. Gives a pretty good idea of how the formula probably works. I have no idea how acurate this is.

http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca512/notice.cgi?action=image_495

Page cannot be displayed.

sde
03-31-2008, 09:59 AM
Page cannot be displayed.
I had the same problem and clicked "Try Again" and several minutes later it finally completed loading.

Steve

Beware_of_Dawg
03-31-2008, 10:03 AM
it just loaded, yeah that the same document I saw before.

LWW
03-31-2008, 10:07 AM
I wish somebody knew the law well enough to explain the law theory there.
It's quite simple.

They developed and patented it.

The formula(e) belong(s) to them and not you.

They are no more obligated to reveal the inner workings to you than the New York Yankees are to reveal their signals or the corner bakery is to release their recipe(s).

LWW