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MHarris
12-21-2007, 05:52 PM
So I was in this spot a while back in a match, and I've been thinking about it some lately. I'm about 85% sure I shot the right shot here, but one of my weaknesses is that I try to do too much at times when a simpler option is right there in front of me.

I'll throw in all the variables to make it more interesting. The 7-ball is frozen. Your opponent plays very well and will make you pay for playing a weak safety. The two corner pockets on the right side of the diagram play very tough, much more so than any other pockets on the table.

What's your shot here?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@1GbNx1HaJc3IEMN4PYcq@

olauzon
12-21-2007, 06:20 PM
i would still soft shoot the combo

Russ Chewning
12-21-2007, 06:27 PM
i would still soft shoot the combo

Oh my! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Russ

av84fun
12-21-2007, 06:30 PM
Soft roll up to the 7 with just enough angle that it misses the 8 coming off the rail so that the 7 rolls toward the center diamond on the short rail and the CB rolls up onto the 8 for a hook....YOU HOPE!

The other options are to play the 7 for a "reail first" shot on the 8 which is a REALLY low percentage shot or to thin the 7 carrying the cb 2 rails back down to the foot rail and cross banking the 7 to the head rail.

Regards,
Jim

Russ Chewning
12-21-2007, 06:41 PM
The 7 is frozen, so I don't quite know if this shot is possible, but if it is, draw the CB to deepen the 3 rail angle towards the other end of the table. Priority should be given towards speed, to end up on the far end rail.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@1GbNx1HaJc3IEMN4PYcq1bbNx1bclF2bbJP2bGjk4kYcq1kY Ro2kQvk2kbRO4kbWw4kDYk@

Scary shot. You have to avoid a kiss out in 2 different spots. :eek

There are actually a few other safeties here to consider.

Hit thin off the side of the 7, with the goal to be to go 2 rails and end up frozen on the top rail. Your opponent might be able to SEE the 7, but it will be very tough position.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@1GbNx1HaJc3IEMN4PYcq1bbNx1bcUF1bCoT4kYcq1kYaq1kJ Mm3kbHf3kQnk3kQnk@

Two rail the 7 behind the 9, and draw the CB two rails to the same location as the 8. Exotic, yes..... But what can I say? I play a little 3-Cushion now and again... :D

http://CueTable.com/P/?@1GbNx1HaJc3IEMN4PYcq1bbNw1bcEE1bEOo3bbOf3bLAj4kY cq1kYyo2kbAk1kEOn1kbJP@

Either way, yer in a tough spot. If you do not feel you can confidently execute any of these.. Just nick the side of the 7 and go to the short rail. You probably won't like what he does to you from there, but if executed decently, you won't lose immediately.

Russ

Russ Chewning
12-21-2007, 06:45 PM
to thin the 7 carrying the cb 2 rails back down to the foot rail and cross banking the 7 to the head rail.

Regards,
Jim

Jim,

See my second diagram. I don't think the speed lays right to get the 7 ball to the head rail while two railing the CB. I think the CB comes back out from behind the 9 if you hit the 7 with that speed.

Russ

MHarris
12-21-2007, 06:46 PM
Soft roll up to the 7 with just enough angle that it misses the 8 coming off the rail so that the 7 rolls toward the center diamond on the short rail and the CB rolls up onto the 8 for a hook....YOU HOPE!

The other options are to play the 7 for a "reail first" shot on the 8 which is a REALLY low percentage shot or to thin the 7 carrying the cb 2 rails back down to the foot rail and cross banking the 7 to the head rail.

Regards,
Jim

That soft roll shot a really interesting option that never crossed my mind. The angle was pretty straight, and I think I might want more of an angle, just to make sure the 7 clears the 8. I'm going to mess around with that next time I practice and see where I'd be most comfortable shooting it from, and how much angle I'd need to clear the 8.

Crossing the 7 to the head rail and leaving a lot of green is a great choice imo.

MHarris
12-21-2007, 06:53 PM
Russ, I like both options you diagrammed. The first shot, I've accidentally duplicated several dozen times trying to bank that ball at the upper-right corner, and I don't recall ever not beating the kiss, so it might be a very viable option here.

av84fun
12-21-2007, 07:40 PM
Jim,

See my second diagram. I don't think the speed lays right to get the 7 ball to the head rail while two railing the CB. I think the CB comes back out from behind the 9 if you hit the 7 with that speed.

Russ

Right Russ. Your first diagram was what I generally had in mind. I didn't look closely enough to see that it was actually 3 rails and not 2.

Thanks!
Jim

Russ Chewning
12-21-2007, 07:53 PM
No problem, man...

Russ

av84fun
12-21-2007, 07:55 PM
That soft roll shot a really interesting option that never crossed my mind. The angle was pretty straight, and I think I might want more of an angle, just to make sure the 7 clears the 8. I'm going to mess around with that next time I practice and see where I'd be most comfortable shooting it from, and how much angle I'd need to clear the 8.

Crossing the 7 to the head rail and leaving a lot of green is a great choice imo.

THANKS! But sadly, the roll up shot doesn't work. with the cb 1 ball width from the rail and the 8 ball 1 thumb width from the rail, you can't get the cub to roll up without the 3 hitting the 8.

You CAN roll the 3 up to about the 1st diamond to the left of the corner pocket with would leave the opponent with a tough kick to make the 3 and probably a VERY tough cut on the 8 down the rail.

But having shot it, I think the distance safety is the move.

HOWEVER...I just shot the "rail first" version. I shot the 7 ball just SLIGHTLY thinner than a full ball hit and made the 8 two out of 3 times...but got decent on the 7 only once...so the play is still the safety unless you would be willing to stroke the rail first shot pretty firmly.

Regards,

Jim

poolplayer2093
12-21-2007, 08:18 PM
i like trying to cross bank the 7 (aiming to come up short if you miss) and set up for shape on the 8. like Russ said. it was actually covered in an instructional by grady mathews and that's how he played it (actually he tried the combo he said in the match but later realized that the safety was what he shouldhave done)

Tin Man
12-21-2007, 09:11 PM
Before I read the answer I set this up and tried several variations.

The only consistent winner I found was Russ's first shot- zig zag the 7 to the end rail with low/center left spin, go behind the 9. Only when I shot it, I couldn't come short enough to get to the nameplate with the cueball. I could just over a diamond from the corner and roll right up behind it though. With hold up on the last two rails the speed is surprisingly easy to get down, and the 7 is in the middle of the end rail every time.

Good shot to know, thanks.

Jaden
12-21-2007, 09:21 PM
Soft roll up to the 7 with just enough angle that it misses the 8 coming off the rail so that the 7 rolls toward the center diamond on the short rail and the CB rolls up onto the 8 for a hook....YOU HOPE!

The other options are to play the 7 for a "reail first" shot on the 8 which is a REALLY low percentage shot or to thin the 7 carrying the cb 2 rails back down to the foot rail and cross banking the 7 to the head rail.

Regards,
Jim

I would've tried the first aformentioned shot playing the seven off teh rail so it just misses the eight with inside follow so that it hugs the rail and locks on the eight or at least hides behind it.

But that is a difficult shot to execute well and for a lot of people it's too low a percentage of shot. Another option is to soft hit the seven almost straight on so that it comes up by the eight hopefully locking with the eight and let the CB hit the rail for a legal shot leaving the CB just past where the seven started. The chances of him having a combo or an easy safe attempt are small and you will have a better chance of getting an easier shot or an easier safety once he hits it.

Russ Chewning
12-21-2007, 10:22 PM
Before I read the answer I set this up and tried several variations.

The only consistent winner I found was Russ's first shot- zig zag the 7 to the end rail with low/center left spin, go behind the 9. Only when I shot it, I couldn't come short enough to get to the nameplate with the cueball. I could just over a diamond from the corner and roll right up behind it though. With hold up on the last two rails the speed is surprisingly easy to get down, and the 7 is in the middle of the end rail every time.

Good shot to know, thanks.

No problem, Tin Man. I order 3-Cushion DVDs from Accu-Stats, and watching good 3-C and trying to predict their shots will really improve your safety and kicking game immensely.

A lot of people think that Efren just has an overactive imagination that allows him to pull off some of the crazy stuff he does, but a good percentage of the shots he pulls off that no one has seen before come straight from 3-Cushion. You know all those cute "kick two rails out of the corner, hit the ball, then crawl up the rail for a safe" shots that Efren does? It's a basic, basic shot in 3-Cushion.

Efren killed all his pool action in the Phillipines around 1979 or so, and went over to Billiards in order to hustle at that game. :D :D :D

Russ

SPINDOKTOR
12-21-2007, 11:23 PM
The 7 is frozen, so I don't quite know if this shot is possible, but if it is, draw the CB to deepen the 3 rail angle towards the other end of the table. Priority should be given towards speed, to end up on the far end rail.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@1GbNx1HaJc3IEMN4PYcq1bbNx1bclF2bbJP2bGjk4kYcq1kY Ro2kQvk2kbRO4kbWw4kDYk@

Scary shot. You have to avoid a kiss out in 2 different spots. :eek

There are actually a few other safeties here to consider.

Hit thin off the side of the 7, with the goal to be to go 2 rails and end up frozen on the top rail. Your opponent might be able to SEE the 7, but it will be very tough position.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@1GbNx1HaJc3IEMN4PYcq1bbNx1bcUF1bCoT4kYcq1kYaq1kJ Mm3kbHf3kQnk3kQnk@

Two rail the 7 behind the 9, and draw the CB two rails to the same location as the 8. Exotic, yes..... But what can I say? I play a little 3-Cushion now and again... :D

http://CueTable.com/P/?@1GbNx1HaJc3IEMN4PYcq1bbNw1bcEE1bEOo3bbOf3bLAj4kY cq1kYyo2kbAk1kEOn1kbJP@

Either way, yer in a tough spot. If you do not feel you can confidently execute any of these.. Just nick the side of the 7 and go to the short rail. You probably won't like what he does to you from there, but if executed decently, you won't lose immediately.

Russ


Russ if your going to do all that why not go for the 7 cross corner? If you come up short your safe anyhow, and if you make it your in position to run out, Thats how Id play it..


SPINDOKTOR

Russ Chewning
12-21-2007, 11:29 PM
If you get it close enough to hit pocket points and/or jaw it, then you're toast.

I'd much rather my opponent be banking rail-to-rail after my safe, and hit it "just good enough to hang up". I play a lot of One Pocket when I get the chance to play, so these sorts of safes are pretty high percentage for me.. Much higher percentage (for me personally) than going for the bank and letting the CB run around.

edited to add: Also, I think the bank is an unavoidable double kiss... :D

Russ

av84fun
12-21-2007, 11:58 PM
I would've tried the first aformentioned shot playing the seven off teh rail so it just misses the eight with inside follow so that it hugs the rail and locks on the eight or at least hides behind it.

But that is a difficult shot to execute well and for a lot of people it's too low a percentage of shot. Another option is to soft hit the seven almost straight on so that it comes up by the eight hopefully locking with the eight and let the CB hit the rail for a legal shot leaving the CB just past where the seven started. The chances of him having a combo or an easy safe attempt are small and you will have a better chance of getting an easier shot or an easier safety once he hits it.

I did forget that one. I hate it when I do that! (-:

I gotta take more time with these things. You guys are TOUGH!!

(-:

Jim

pletho
12-22-2007, 12:09 AM
russ chewnigs first shot BUT instead just use natural top left english at about 11:30 oclock you will hit two rails and possibly get behind the nine and since its natural, its easier to do, the key is to hit the 7 and bank it and make sure it lays in the middle of the rail and make sure you hit enough speed on the cue ball to go down table... this really is the easiest way to get a good result and with a few practices you have the speed, this safety does come up alot in nine ball.....

Playing one pocket definatly helps you see these type of shots and strengthens your bank safeties

Deadon
12-22-2007, 05:43 AM
Shoot the 7 into the 8, as it lies, with med/hard draw. Put the CB on the end rail the 7 will come of the 8 and roll to the middle of the end rail, (because of the draw). Actually an easy shot.

MHarris
12-22-2007, 09:34 AM
Thanks for the replies, guys. There are a couple of options I never would have thought of, and I'll mess around with them some. Always nice to have some extra tools in your arsenal.

I ended up playing Russ's first shot, banking the 7 two rails to the middle of the end rail, and taking whitey 3 rails to the opposite end rail. I hit it a little bad and made the cross bank, putting the CB about 2 inches from the end rail, leaving a long shot on the 8 into a tough pocket. I managed to get out from there, fortunately.

Thanks again to all who replied!