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Fatboy
12-23-2007, 03:03 PM
I want to hear everyone's own personal defination of what exactly heart is. Since I entered the DCC 10Ball ring game I have been told I'm a rich guy buying my into something, on the flip side I have heard that I have alot of alot heart to enter it because it will put me in the spot light and expose any weakness I have, I dont want this defination to be about me and what I'm doing, i'm out of the picture for this thread.

What this is about what is "heart" in your mind?, just betting high isnt it to me, because its all relitave to ones bankroll. Is it the willingness of a player to step up and take a huge risk in action? Playing over their head? Out running the nuts? Is it to see how many barrels a player will fire? Is it taking a shot at someone you dont know? Is it having the guts to take the worst of it infront of alot of people? Is it playing through the tough times until your game comes back? Finding a way to win? How deep you dig into your soul to keep playing? Is it a go-off who plays til he is flat? Entering a tournment? Playing leagues? Practicing 6 hours a day with dedication? Sacrificing having a relationship with a girl and other things in life-total dedication? Going on the road? Etc...

There are a million different definatons in my mind and I want to know what everyones opinion is, again leave me and what i'm doing out of this, this aint about me. Its a term I have heard a million times in pool rooms all over the world-mostly here in America from my experience. I have heard it here(AZ) too, its used loosley by D players up to Champions. You'll hear "Bartram has alot of heart" often, with that statment or similar statments in mind, please eloborate on what heart really means to you, your own personal opinion. I know there are as many answeres to this as questions, so lets hear them. Please no knocks in this thread-those speak for themselfs.

I have often wondered about my peers in pool and what their idea of what it is, since I hear it so often. But please generalize this isnt about anyone person or event like Bartram etc. its about your the interpation of the word.

Everyone thinks they have it thus everyone here has to have a opinion of what makes a player have heart.

(sorry my spelling is awful today)

RRfireblade
12-23-2007, 03:09 PM
To me , Heart is giving at all you have even when your down , even when you don't have a chance.

In fact , that's when it shows the most , giving it your all even when you know it's not going to be enough but you do it anyway . . . that's heart.

hangemhigh
12-23-2007, 03:10 PM
Trusting your instincts and believing in yourself.

Johnnyt
12-23-2007, 03:10 PM
Heart to me is never giving up...no matter how much the odds are staked against you. Weather it be gambling, love, business, or whatever. Johnnyt

Worminator
12-23-2007, 03:21 PM
"believing in yourself."

I believe this sums it up best along with the ability to overcome adversity.

ShootingArts
12-23-2007, 03:21 PM
Simpy put, heart is about willingness to take risks. As I said long ago, throwing twenty on the pool table takes heart if you are hungry several hundred miles away from home, and that is your last twenty. It doesn't mean a thing if you throw twenties to the paperboy when you grab a paper. Likewise, if you care what the rest of the world thinks about you, it takes a lot of heart to risk public embarrassment. If you really are indifferent to what other people think then you can do whatever you please in public with no heart involved at all.

In truth, only each individual can know what it takes heart for them to do.

Hu

Blackjack
12-23-2007, 03:25 PM
Click the link below... it is the best definition I have ever heard as it relates to pool...

HEART (http://propoolvideo.com/old-school/heart-is-everything.html)
.
.
.
.
.

Nuff said!

Neil
12-23-2007, 03:26 PM
................

DrCue'sProtege
12-23-2007, 03:29 PM
Heart, huh?

well, unless you are excellent at making balls and have excellent cue ball control, heart isnt going to do you much good. except providing you a means to have someone pat you on the back afterwards, and say you gave your best.

the Miami Dolphins had heart going into New England today. the result of their heart? a 28-0 first half deficit. that heart didnt do them much good.

DCP

philw
12-23-2007, 03:32 PM
I think JohnnyT summed it up. Never giving up and fin ding a way to win when winning looks impossible. I've seen top players concede when they are far behind in a race to 9 say 7-0 I think you should always try to win even if you're losing 8-0 in a race to 9 To me overcoming this adversity shows heart. Philw

CaptiveBred
12-23-2007, 03:37 PM
Heart is fatboy putting up ten million to my ten thousand and playing an ahead set...

That may be ballanced well for pressure...

What say you, fatboy? Got the heart?

Neil
12-23-2007, 03:44 PM
.................

Craig Fales
12-23-2007, 03:49 PM
Heart, huh?

well, unless you are excellent at making balls and have excellent cue ball control, heart isnt going to do you much good. except providing you a means to have someone pat you on the back afterwards, and say you gave your best.

the Miami Dolphins had heart going into New England today. the result of their heart? a 28-0 first half deficit. that heart didnt do them much good.

DCP
But if you didn't get up there and play then you would be considered to have no heart...

iba7467
12-23-2007, 04:09 PM
Heart is getting in a game that is not easy for stakes that are not small (relative to the person) and battling to win it.

Bartrum is a great example of this. If he has $10000 to bet, he will play an even game and play his "heart" out.

Heart is Chris Gardner from the "Pursuit of Happyness".

It does not take heart for me to play for $5 a game no matter what the game is. It does take heart to be down 10 games at $5 a game and battle back to win because I know I have the ability.

Heart is someone's tenacity and risk relative to their monetary situation.

derekdisco
12-23-2007, 04:09 PM
http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=24006&stc=1&d=1154874116

Ron Cook
12-23-2007, 04:17 PM
I want to hear everyone's own personal definition of what exactly heart is?

Ask any serviceman that has been in a heavy fire fight what "heart" is? Heart is throwing yourself onto a grenade to save your friends! It is that instinct within you to do the impossible for a cause greater than yourself.

Heart is what Easter & Christmas is all about, an innocent man suffering and being killed for HIS Friends while being spit on, and then saying to God "forgive them for they know not what they do".

It takes "heart" to believe in the impossible like what Shane just accomplished in Reno. For without the "heart to believe" man has no hope, for the good book says, "without a vision man perishes." Given that, "heart" & "vision" run a close race with each other and are closely related.

It takes heart to take hits from others without striking back. Heart often puts concerns about others before yourself. That's why you often hear the words "he has a good heart". A pool player can have a good or bad heart that is his or her choice. A heart to play pool is really "courage", not heart, for a man's heart is really made up of where his treasure lies, that is where you will find your heart!

lodini
12-23-2007, 04:43 PM
Heart, huh?

well, unless you are excellent at making balls and have excellent cue ball control, heart isnt going to do you much good. except providing you a means to have someone pat you on the back afterwards, and say you gave your best.

the Miami Dolphins had heart going into New England today. the result of their heart? a 28-0 first half deficit. that heart didnt do them much good.

DCP

DCP, you are so freaking depressing... the reason the Dolphins have heart is because individually they have worked their respective asses off to get to where they are... as a team, yeah, they suck. But they didn't become pro football players because they sat around their backyard and tossed the football in the air and caught it themselves (like you practicing by yourself all day on your pool table).

They played high school and college ball and worked really hard to become the best players they can each be. I am sure they each faced adversity and struggled to get where they are, but they didn't quit. You refer to their collective "heart" as a team, but let's face it, none of them would be there at all if they didnt each have what it takes (and it does take plenty of heart). One losing season for these people as a team, and you are questioning whether having heart even matters??? Give me a break. You are obviously missing something when it comes to evaluating success; on a personal or professional level.

I would guarantee you that not one of those players is ready to "give up" because of a couple of bad breaks, as you have stated so many times on here.

The ability to not give up and follow your dreams at all costs... that's my definition of heart.

Catahula
12-23-2007, 04:45 PM
Heart exists when a person works hard at achieving a goal and pushes himself out past that comfortable point that his natural talents would have taken him.
Other people don't keep score for the amount of heart you display, you keep your own score. And it is that score that allows you to leave the room with you head high, win lose or draw.
True heart does not listen to the naysayers.
Press On Fatboy!

TATE
12-23-2007, 04:51 PM
Losing money doesn't take heart. Coming back a month or a year later as a better player and winning it back does.


Chris

Jimk
12-23-2007, 04:59 PM
I want to hear everyone's own personal defination of what exactly heart is. Since I entered the DCC 10Ball ring game I have been told I'm a rich guy buying my into something, on the flip side I have heard that I have alot of alot heart to enter it because it will put me in the spot light and expose any weakness I have, I dont want this defination to be about me and what I'm doing, i'm out of the picture for this thread.

What this is about what is "heart" in your mind?, just betting high isnt it to me, because its all relitave to ones bankroll. Is it the willingness of a player to step up and take a huge risk in action? Playing over their head? Out running the nuts? Is it to see how many barrels a player will fire? Is it taking a shot at someone you dont know? Is it having the guts to take the worst of it infront of alot of people? Is it playing through the tough times until your game comes back? Finding a way to win? How deep you dig into your soul to keep playing? Is it a go-off who plays til he is flat? Entering a tournment? Playing leagues? Practicing 6 hours a day with dedication? Sacrificing having a relationship with a girl and other things in life-total dedication? Going on the road? Etc...

There are a million different definatons in my mind and I want to know what everyones opinion is, again leave me and what i'm doing out of this, this aint about me. Its a term I have heard a million times in pool rooms all over the world-mostly here in America from my experience. I have heard it here(AZ) too, its used loosley by D players up to Champions. You'll hear "Bartram has alot of heart" often, with that statment or similar statments in mind, please eloborate on what heart really means to you, your own personal opinion. I know there are as many answeres to this as questions, so lets hear them. Please no knocks in this thread-those speak for themselfs.

I have often wondered about my peers in pool and what their idea of what it is, since I hear it so often. But please generalize this isnt about anyone person or event like Bartram etc. its about your the interpation of the word.

Everyone thinks they have it thus everyone here has to have a opinion of what makes a player have heart.

(sorry my spelling is awful today)
Fatboy, you seem obsessed with the ring game. Putting yourself in action is more than a lot of people would do, not withstanding the entry fee. I would think one would always want to perform well in such a situation, but that may not always be in the cards. Critics are those who stand on the side but won't get close to the fire. Best of luck.

Scott Lee
12-23-2007, 05:22 PM
Heart is not about the money. It is the inner ability to overcome adversity, under any situation...or at least give it your best shot. It is NOT something that can be taught. It's one of the three parts to being a great player... those being Head, Heart & Skill (Skill is the smallest part).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

.Heart is someone's tenacity and risk relative to their monetary situation.

JCIN
12-23-2007, 05:36 PM
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."

Theodore Roosevelt

Pretty much sums it for me.

Scaramouche
12-23-2007, 05:41 PM
Sammy Davis Jr.
A professional is one who does a good job even when he doesn't feel like it.

JoeW
12-23-2007, 05:43 PM
Read One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich
or the plot summary at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Day_in_the_Life_of_Ivan_Denisovich

Or ask any one who has served in a war zone about who they would want to have their back.

See many of Clint Eastwood's or Charles Bronson's movies. My favorite and repeated by Bruce Willis is, "Last Man Standing." It is our myths and mythology about what a man is or should be.

The High Plains Drifter may be the heart of America. But you can pick your own.

Heart is not about The Hustler or The Color of Money, it is about being a man, at all times under all circumstances.

The difference between a "brave" man and a "coward" is about the way they choose to walk, knowing what is in front of them, some walk into it, some walk away. Many people do not know if they have the heart for it until confronted by what threatens them.

Some with it perform well, some die trying, both fight until the end. And when it is over the man with heart states that they are not brave, they only did what a man would do -- that is heart. It can be observed in a man, in a woman, in a dog, and in a deer. You will know it when you see it.

Southpaw
12-23-2007, 05:45 PM
Challenging yourself even if you may have the worst of it and fighting hard is heart to me. And I dont feel that you have to win necessarily to have heart either. JMO.

Southpaw

DrCue'sProtege
12-23-2007, 05:57 PM
Heart is not about the money. It is the inner ability to overcome adversity, under any situation...or at least give it your best shot. It is NOT something that can be taught. It's one of the three parts to being a great player... those being Head, Heart & Skill (Skill is the smallest part).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

SKILL IS THE SMALLEST PART??????

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME SCOTT??????

i dont believe my eyes are reading that correctly. you must be back in the area, back at the amish restaurant, and boozin' with the amish to have wrote something as unbelievable as that.

DCP

p.s. fire awy

sjm
12-23-2007, 06:02 PM
Wen I think of heart, I think of the ability to perform under circumstances where most people could not keep their composure. Two incidents stand out in my mind:

1) Mike Sigel runs 150 and out on you, but on the very first turn of your next match you run 148 against Ray Martin.................... you're Mike Zuglan at the 1992 US Open Straight Pool Championships and you've got heart.

2) You've just learned that your father has passed away, but you decide to play in the tournament anyway. You lose your first match to David Howard, but still play on. You win ten matches in a row to earn a shot at Johnny Archer in the final and beat him 13-2 to win the title..................... you're Efren Reyes at the 1996 PBT Florida Flare-up and you've got heart.

Scottster
12-23-2007, 06:09 PM
SKILL IS THE SMALLEST PART??????

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME SCOTT??????

i dont believe my eyes are reading that correctly. you must be back in the area, back at the amish restaurant, and boozin' with the amish to have wrote something as unbelievable as that.

DCP

p.s. fire awy


Nevermind, I realized My odds of winning at russian roulette with a semi automatic pistol are better than getting my point across to DCP.

Fatboy
12-23-2007, 06:40 PM
Fatboy, you seem obsessed with the ring game. Putting yourself in action is more than a lot of people would do, not withstanding the entry fee. I would think one would always want to perform well in such a situation, but that may not always be in the cards. Critics are those who stand on the side but won't get close to the fire. Best of luck.

i'm not obsessed with anything, this post was thought up while I was reading somethng else and It got me thinking, thats all, the timing might lead you to think otherwise. thanks i'm gonna need alot of luck, happy holidays

Fatboy
12-23-2007, 06:42 PM
Sammy Davis Jr.
A professional is one who does a good job even when he doesn't feel like it.


thats a good thought.

Fatboy
12-23-2007, 06:43 PM
2) You've just learned that your father has passed away, but you decide to play in the tournament anyway. You lose your first match to David Howard, but still play on. You win ten matches in a row to earn a shot at Johnny Archer in the final and beat him 13-2 to win the title..................... you're Efren Reyes at the 1996 PBT Florida Flare-up and you've got heart.

wow thats strong, i forgot about that, thats amazing.

ShootingArts
12-23-2007, 06:53 PM
Scott Lee who makes his living teaching skills tells you something about skills and the first thing you do is throw it out the window. For every champion, there may be a dozen more with equal skill. For every winning gambler there are hundreds more with equal skill. Skill can be taught to anyone with moderate physical abilities. You have to be born with some brain to work with but how to use that brain, Head, can be somewhat taught. Heart can be enhanced the more you use it but no instructor, no coach, nobody in the world can teach heart or give heart to someone that doesn't have it.

Skill is the least of the three things needed because it is the most teachable. Matching up smart and playing smart can be taught to a degree also. Heart and class have to come from within. You can teach someone to act like they have heart but they will fold like a cheap rug under pressure if they were not born with it.

Hu


SKILL IS THE SMALLEST PART??????

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME SCOTT??????

i dont believe my eyes are reading that correctly. you must be back in the area, back at the amish restaurant, and boozin' with the amish to have wrote something as unbelievable as that.

DCP

p.s. fire awy

JCIN
12-23-2007, 06:53 PM
SKILL IS THE SMALLEST PART??????

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME SCOTT??????

i dont believe my eyes are reading that correctly. you must be back in the area, back at the amish restaurant, and boozin' with the amish to have wrote something as unbelievable as that.

DCP

p.s. fire awy
You really don't have a clue do you?

Heart does not have anything to do with skill. There are players who play at the highest level and have no heart. I know several B players with more heart than most of the pros I have ever met.

Heart is not about winning. It is about refusing to quit. It is about taking that tough game in order to test yourself. It is starting something with out knowing for sure if you will be able to overcome the obstacles it will take to finish and not quitting when you get to the obstacles.

As stated above in the thread, those who serve our country know what heart is, those who fight and survive through hard times know what heart is. The firefighters, cops, and EMT's who go to work everyday to help strangers know what heart is. The kid who shoots 1000 freethrows a day, so he can make the team knows what heart is. It is all around you. You just have to be to able see.

Maybe one day you will figure it out.

"Pain is temporary, quitting is forever"
Lance Armstrong

Wild Thing II
12-23-2007, 07:06 PM
Click the link below... it is the best definition I have ever heard as it relates to pool...

HEART (http://propoolvideo.com/old-school/heart-is-everything.html)
.
.
.
.
.

Nuff said!

I agree Dave. That is a great clip. I don't think it could have been explained any better than this.

ironman
12-23-2007, 07:16 PM
Heart, huh?

well, unless you are excellent at making balls and have excellent cue ball control, heart isnt going to do you much good. except providing you a means to have someone pat you on the back afterwards, and say you gave your best.

the Miami Dolphins had heart going into New England today. the result of their heart? a 28-0 first half deficit. that heart didnt do them much good.

DCP

I think I'm going to throw up!!!

Fatboy
12-23-2007, 07:21 PM
Scott Lee who makes his living teaching skills tells you something about skills and the first thing you do is throw it out the window. For every champion, there may be a dozen more with equal skill. For every winning gambler there are hundreds more with equal skill. Skill can be taught to anyone with moderate physical abilities. You have to be born with some brain to work with but how to use that brain, Head, can be somewhat taught. Heart can be enhanced the more you use it but no instructor, no coach, nobody in the world can teach heart or give heart to someone that doesn't have it.

Skill is the least of the three things needed because it is the most teachable. Matching up smart and playing smart can be taught to a degree also. Heart and class have to come from within. You can teach someone to act like they have heart but they will fold like a cheap rug under pressure if they were not born with it.

Hu


I have a friend who hits them as good as anyone in the world for the time, for $500 he is done, he was gifted with the coordination to play good but not the confidence to do anything with it, thats why I started this thread is to hear all the ideas,

Buddy Hall said it best if you have the gift to play good-dead stroke or the zone, but when you dont have Buddys gift then what? I have never played perfect pool for more than a few racks here and there, I can get into that zone for a few minutes then poof I'm back to where ever I was at before, the Champions can keep it there longer, is that heart or skill?

DTL
12-23-2007, 07:40 PM
.......................

olauzon
12-23-2007, 07:41 PM
Heart to me is never giving up...no matter how much the odds are staked against you. Weather it be gambling, love, business, or whatever. Johnnyt

yea, that, and humble truthiness; help the less fortunate people (no not you dcp..) with food and shelter. that kind of humble.

oh, pool was it?

ShootingArts
12-23-2007, 07:59 PM
Fatboy,

Getting in the zone and even playing much the same when you are not truly in the zone can be learned so I say it has little to do with heart. However without some heart someone won't have the calm mind needed to get into the zone. Note I say that getting in the zone can be learned. I'm not sure it can be taught although the aids to help get you there can be.

Hu


I have a friend who hits them as good as anyone in the world for the time, for $500 he is done, he was gifted with the coordination to play good but not the confidence to do anything with it, thats why I started this thread is to hear all the ideas,

Buddy Hall said it best if you have the gift to play good-dead stroke or the zone, but when you dont have Buddys gift then what? I have never played perfect pool for more than a few racks here and there, I can get into that zone for a few minutes then poof I'm back to where ever I was at before, the Champions can keep it there longer, is that heart or skill?

Fatboy
12-23-2007, 08:13 PM
Fatboy,

Getting in the zone and even playing much the same when you are not truly in the zone can be learned so I say it has little to do with heart. However without some heart someone won't have the calm mind needed to get into the zone. Note I say that getting in the zone can be learned. I'm not sure it can be taught although the aids to help get you there can be.

Hu

I think that the lesser talanted players need more heart than the gifted players, I have seen the strong A players down in the trenches in action alot more than the gifted players(champions) who just show up and win, not all the time but most of the time

i have been gifted in one thing in life and didnt work half as hard as the guys who wernt as gifted-telemarketing. It came natural to me, I would go in do my thing for a couple hours and leave, I got bigger numbers($$$) than the guys pounding the phones all day. I didnt have the heart they did and believe me that gig takes heart. I just did my thing and left 4 hours earily everyday. I'm not taking anything away from top pool players just sharing my experience-perhaps its a bad compairson. Heart and talant are 2 different things.

again not to beat a dead horse i made this thread to gain insight into the pshchology of our sport, its not about me, its for me and other to learn from.

JimS
12-23-2007, 08:18 PM
Courage. Courage to do what is important to you no matter the danger involved. Doesn't matter if the danger is monetary or embarrassment or whatever.

Heart is the "go for it" attitude. Courage. Guts. Personal power. Spirit.

Asking for a raise.
Asking for a date.
To read for the part.
To audition for the band.
To do the presentation.
To get up there and make the speech.
To go way out on a limb.
To face your fear, maybe your greatest fear.
Heart plays the solo, makes the speech, asks for the date. The man is afraid so he gives it up and lets Heart do it and Heart does the job without a second thought. Heart is not unafraid. Heart just does it. Heart doesn't know how to do it. Heart just does it. Heart just does it.

You can't win without heart but you may lose even though you have heart.

With heart you don't quit, you don't let up, you don't give in, you don't shrink.

There it is! You got heart you don't shrink! YOU DO NOT SHRINK!!
Faced with diffculty many of us shrink... we get smaller. We shrivel up and fall back inside ourselves.... we get little'r and little'r until we don't exist on the radar anymore.

Heart makes us get bigger when faced with annihilation. Heart means you walk towards your probable death lookin the slimy mf'r dead in the face, with a clear eye, an open mind, and an unfaltering gait all while taking dead freakin aim.

Later you know that it was your body that did it but you also know that the usual person that you and others think of as being "you" didn't do it. Heart did it. Life changes after that.

Google Robert Flack's version of To Dream The Impossible Dream.

Edit: Fatboy... you don't worry 'bout heart. I KNOW when a man's got heart and you got no worries along those lines. You got the orange crush in Heart.

derekdisco
12-23-2007, 08:30 PM
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=70022


Look at the winner, and the field he was in.

Fatboy
12-23-2007, 08:31 PM
Courage. Courage to do what is important to you no matter the danger involved. Doesn't matter if the danger is monetary or embarrassment or whatever.

Heart is the "go for it" attitude. Courage. Guts. Personal power. Spirit.

Asking for a raise.
Asking for a date.
To read for the part.
To audition for the band.
To do the presentation.
To get up there and make the speech.
To go way out on a limb.
To face your fear, maybe your greatest fear.
Heart plays the solo, makes the speech, asks for the date. The man is afraid so he gives it up and lets Heart do it and Heart does the job without a second thought. Heart is not unafraid. Heart just does it. Heart doesn't know how to do it. Heart just does it. Heart just does it.

You can't win without heart but you may lose even though you have heart.

With heart you don't quit, you don't let up, you don't give in, you don't shrink.

There it is! You got heart you don't shrink! YOU DO NOT SHRINK!!
Faced with diffculty many of us shrink... we get smaller. We shrivel up and fall back inside ourselves.... we get little'r and little'r until we don't exist on the radar anymore.

Heart makes us get bigger when faced with annihilation. Heart means you walk towards your probable death lookin the slimy mf'r dead in the face, with a clear eye, an open mind, and an unfaltering gait all while taking dead freakin aim and later you know that it was your body but "you" didn't do it. Heart did it.

Google Robert Flack's version of To Dream The Impossible Dream.

Edit: Fatboy... you don't worry 'bout heart. I KNOW when a man's got heart and you got no worries along those lines. You got the orange crush in Heart.


wow what a post, thats exactly why i started this thread, I'm gonna print that out, i have ran my businesses like that for years, when the FTC hit me, when I was on case $$$ in the beginning I never gave up, i'm in court as a plantiff now fighting for my rights, it never stops, there have been some easy months hear and there over the past 11 years but I understand, you summarized it, spot on. thanks

wincardona
12-23-2007, 08:39 PM
Eric,heart is the understanding of what needs to be executed,and the complete confidence that you will do it.

ShootingArts
12-23-2007, 08:48 PM
Fatboy,

I agree with you completely. Heart, talent, and the physical abilities that you have acquired at a certain moment in time are all distinctly different. In some respects I think that those gifted more with determination and less with talent have an edge over many with talent who may have never had to develop their determination to the same level.

One group of people that have always interested me are Olympic gold medallists. We could argue amateur or professional but the lines have always been blurred in the time of the modern Olympics. I think it is fair to say that on the day or days of their win they were the very best in the world. When you read their stories you find a few were extraordinarily gifted from the very beginning and were "naturals" at their event. However far more were only moderately gifted with skills or physique and extraordinarily courageous and determined. Some even had handicaps or injuries that prevent most people from having normal lives yet they not only led normal lives but were the best in the world at what they chose to do.

If I had a choice I would choose a strong work ethic and courage with just a smidgeon of talent over a lot of talent and a smidgeon of the other two any time.

Hu


I think that the lesser talanted players need more heart than the gifted players, I have seen the strong A players down in the trenches in action alot more than the gifted players(champions) who just show up and win, not all the time but most of the time

i have been gifted in one thing in life and didnt work half as hard as the guys who wernt as gifted-telemarketing. It came natural to me, I would go in do my thing for a couple hours and leave, I got bigger numbers($$$) than the guys pounding the phones all day. I didnt have the heart they did and believe me that gig takes heart. I just did my thing and left 4 hours earily everyday. I'm not taking anything away from top pool players just sharing my experience-perhaps its a bad compairson. Heart and talant are 2 different things.

again not to beat a dead horse i made this thread to gain insight into the pshchology of our sport, its not about me, its for me and other to learn from.

Fatboy
12-23-2007, 08:54 PM
Eric,heart is the understanding of what needs to be executed,and the complete confidence that you will do it.

there you are, i was getting worried, happy holidays, call me sometime. thanks for your interpetation of heart, thats big comming from a champion.

9ball
12-23-2007, 09:14 PM
Fatboy wish you the best!

Heart is knowing you have no more left , but your heart won`t let you quit!

Heart is being down 8 to 0 in a race to 9 in nineball, then looking up and seeing your dads face with that look that says I believe in you son. Yet knowing your opponent is alot better than you, You play on with everything you got. And when the match is over the score is 9 to 8 , You won!

From experience!

RIP DAD!

poolhustler
12-23-2007, 09:17 PM
Lots of good definitions of "heart" !!!!!!

Russ......

CrownCityCorey
12-23-2007, 09:21 PM
How deep you dig into your soul to keep playing?

That's the one.

I think more accurately, it is how deep you dig within yourself to continue the fight when you're being beaten. Those with great heart, tend to still win even under those conditions. Their opponent gives up first!

By no means, is this restricted to pool.

Scottster
12-23-2007, 09:27 PM
Fatboy wish you the best!

Heart is knowing you have no more left , but your heart won`t let you quit!

Heart is being down 8 to 0 in a race to 9 in nineball, then looking up and seeing your dads face with that look that says I believe in you son. Yet knowing your opponent is alot better than you, You play on with everything you got. And when the match is over the score is 9 to 8 , You won!

From experience!

RIP DAD!


Personally, this definition is my favorite of all, thanks 9Ball

jay helfert
12-23-2007, 10:34 PM
My definition of heart in pool goes something like this.

Being able to make the 9-Ball from off the end rail when it is hill-hill, and you have all your money on the line. That takes heart!

To me, heart is that certain something that winners have that gives them the strength to make a very difficult shot under extreme pressure. Some guys can do it and some guys will dog it every time.

Every champion I ever saw had heart. You don't win titles on skill alone!

chilli66
12-23-2007, 10:40 PM
So many good replies here. I can agree with a lot of them.

To me heart is not beating yourself up when your opponent is doing exactly that to you. It's all about your next shot, thinking "I know I'll get a chance, and I'm gonna make the best of it!"

Someone else mentioned playing after hearing about a parent passing away. I had to play league pool twice on days when my parents died. Turned out I was the only one of our team to win on both occasions. Everyone was amazed I even showed up to play. At the time I didn't consider that as having heart, I thought of it more as being a way to shut out the nightmare day I'd had & concentrate on something else. Maybe that was heart, I'm still not sure. I do know if you can get your head down & play in that situation you can pretty much do it anytime.

Deadon
12-23-2007, 10:49 PM
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."

Theodore Roosevelt

Pretty much sums it for me.


I'm with you on that, JCIN.

Fatboy;

It is not your "heart" that allows you to play. Its what you put into it when you do play. Good Luck, play hard and leave it all on the table.

Mike

DrCue'sProtege
12-23-2007, 11:14 PM
My definition of heart in pool goes something like this.

Being able to make the 9-Ball from off the end rail when it is hill-hill, and you have all your money on the line. That takes heart!

Every champion I ever saw had heart. You don't win titles on skill alone!

being able to make that 9-Ball that you describe, uh, well, lets say i'd prefer to have skill than heart.

you dont win titles on skill alone? uh, no, but without it you will STARVE big time, almost all the time!!!

DCP

derekdisco
12-23-2007, 11:44 PM
being able to make that 9-Ball that you describe, uh, well, lets say i'd prefer to have skill than heart.

you dont win titles on skill alone? uh, no, but without it you will STARVE big time, almost all the time!!!

DCP

I noticed youre in southwest indiana? You anywhere near evansville?

JoeyA
12-24-2007, 12:20 AM
Fatboy, I think what Teddy Roosevelt said about courage, best describes "heart".

Theodore Roosevelt on Courage:
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, and comes short again and again because there is not effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."

JoeyA

UPlayLucky
12-24-2007, 12:53 AM
Rudy

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vR2wOHwJ-Jo

UPlayLucky
12-24-2007, 12:58 AM
Pepolli

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Aux_hRJYED8

Fatboy
12-24-2007, 01:00 AM
i knew this was going to be a good thread...even got Mr.Cardone on board with it.

hilla_hilla
12-24-2007, 01:39 AM
I liked the, believing in yourself:)

JimS
12-24-2007, 06:47 PM
Fatboy, I think what Teddy Roosevelt said about courage, best describes "heart".

Theodore Roosevelt on Courage:
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, and comes short again and again because there is not effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."

JoeyA

Great stuff Joey!

TWOFORPOOL
12-24-2007, 06:57 PM
Heart is the ability to never give up even under the most extreme circumstances. Very easy to say, very difficult to do.

DrCue'sProtege
12-24-2007, 07:01 PM
I noticed youre in southwest indiana? You anywhere near evansville?

my garage/apartment is 64.1 miles N.N.E. of the junction of Green River Road and Morgan Avenue. 1 hour 15 minute drive to Loogootee, Ind.

DCP

JoeyA
12-24-2007, 07:54 PM
Here's two guys who have PLENTY of HEART.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071223/ap_on_re_us/saving_ala_a
JoeyA

ShootingArts
12-24-2007, 08:18 PM
Here's two guys who have PLENTY of HEART.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071223/ap_on_re_us/saving_ala_a
JoeyA

Joey,

That is a different kind of heart. You could be the greatest pool player in the world without a tiny fraction of the heart those two have. Quite a story for Christmas Eve.

Merry Christmas to you and to them!

Hu

ajrack
12-24-2007, 08:29 PM
He told me one day that having heart and being a player is :
when you are in a race to 10 / your opponent has 9 and you have 6 / you have a very tough shot to get out of the current rack / AND "YOU KNOW" YOU HAVE THE BEST OF IT.

Fatboy
12-24-2007, 09:08 PM
He told me one day that having heart and being a player is :
when you are in a race to 10 / your opponent has 9 and you have 6 / you have a very tough shot to get out of the current rack / AND "YOU KNOW" YOU HAVE THE BEST OF IT.


if heart means being at the table down 4 games and having the best of it then I have no heart because I dont come with 4 packs often, can I put up 4 in a row? sure but I dont play strong enough to call that situation "the best of it", I know guys who do. with that logic the better the player the more heart they have....I dont buy it, I have seen weak players with alot of heart.

philw
12-24-2007, 09:22 PM
I think boxers best illustrate what heart is. We've all seen a fight where one fighter is getting beat badly but doesn't give up and becomes triumphant. That is what "Rocky" was about some average guy beating the odds. Philw

ShootingArts
12-25-2007, 08:43 AM
I think boxers best illustrate what heart is. We've all seen a fight where one fighter is getting beat badly but doesn't give up and becomes triumphant. That is what "Rocky" was about some average guy beating the odds. Philw

Actually I think the pug's best illustrate heart in boxing. They know their day is past, or never was, yet they contract fight after fight to feed their families. Taped hands inside a glove feel a lot like getting hit by a brick wrapped in a towel, the tape is to protect hands, not jaws.

You see these pug's without one chance in a hundred get off the floor again and again and battle through ten or twelve rounds knowing before they step into the ring that this is all they have to expect. That is perhaps the very greatest display of raw courage in the sports world. It doesn't match people who give up their lives for their family or what they believe in but I doubt that one in a hundred of the pug fighters with heart wouldn't have the courage to do so if needed. Some of the greatest fights I have ever seen is when they pair two pug's with heart and determination and roughly equal skills. It isn't the prettiest fight in the world but it is one of the most impressive.

Hu

klockdoc
12-25-2007, 10:47 AM
Click the link below... it is the best definition I have ever heard as it relates to pool...

HEART (http://propoolvideo.com/old-school/heart-is-everything.html)
.
.
.
.
.

Nuff said!

That has to be the worst definition of "Heart" that I ever heard anyone define. Being in the "zone" is not a definition of Heart, it is a result of having Heart. JMO

I believe it is as stated by Catahula, quote: Heart exists when a person works hard at achieving a goal and pushes himself out past that comfortable point that his natural talents would have taken him.

Merry Christmas

DrCue'sProtege
12-25-2007, 11:01 AM
That has to be the worst definition of "Heart" that I ever heard anyone define.

wow, you mean there's someone else besides me that feels this same way? be careful there, doc, you dont want to make people mad or they will start to pout and ignore you.

anyway, skill is absolutely no question about it the #1 most important thing to being a good pool player.

DCP

Tszyu
12-25-2007, 11:28 AM
I don't know fatboy, but I'm sick of his posting--"I'm not bragging about how rich I am" followed by my 15k cues or my trillion dollar mansion. He comes across as the poor me Im just a rich beyond belief guy buy I'm sad cause I have no family :( I know Fatboy has his following of ass kissers cause they've never met a millionaire on their forums before. Just my obsevation

bagofpaper
12-25-2007, 11:45 AM
I don't know fatboy, but I'm sick of his posting--"I'm not bragging about how rich I am" followed by my 15k cues or my trillion dollar mansion. He comes across as the poor me Im just a rich beyond belief guy buy I'm sad cause I have no family :( I know Fatboy has his following of ass kissers cause they've never met a millionaire on their forums before. Just my obsevation

Do I detect a hint of jealousy in this post?

In any event, Merry Christmas everyone!! Don't eat too much!!

MRLUCKY7
12-25-2007, 11:51 AM
Heart is taking the shot that you know will get you out ! Versus taking the safe and hoping to get back to the table!

BigCat
12-25-2007, 03:59 PM
Heart is someone's tenacity and risk relative to their monetary situation.

Heart has absolutely nothing to do with money. IMO, they are mutually exclusive. They can co-exist, but one does not depend on the other.

It does not always take heart to "risk" your own money (regardless of how much or little you may have). Risking one's money can have many motivations, with only one of the many options being heart (others may include overestimation, underestimation, ignorance, desire, perserverance, or just plain stupidity).

Heart is an intangible quality of one's personality that cannot be measured by dollars. IMO, heart is unmearsurable, and can best be seen when all the odds are stacked against you.... and someway, somehow, you find a way to overcome everything around you that says you can't win and still beat those odds.

DrJ
12-25-2007, 04:14 PM
..........

ironman
12-25-2007, 04:19 PM
wow, you mean there's someone else besides me that feels this same way? be careful there, doc, you dont want to make people mad or they will start to pout and ignore you.

anyway, skill is absolutely no question about it the #1 most important thing to being a good pool player.

DCP

Ding dong, knock knock knock is anybody there?????? Must not be, there are no lights on!!

ironman
12-25-2007, 04:31 PM
There have been many explanations of Heart here and I've seen many examples of it over my life and around this game. I'm not sure it can be explained perfectly.
IMO, I've seen many exhibit a lot of heart in defeat as well as winning. To me, when you left it all out there with nothing else to give. When nobody else knows howimportant the win could have been at the time and you gave it all you had.
I watched a pretty good player who needed the win very badly for several personal reasons and not all of them had to do with money, but it was important.
He lead in a race to 11 for all his dough and was leading 10-8. I mean he was playing brilliantly, but so was the other guy. At 10-8 he broke and hit em near perfectly only to have a ball come around and kick the cue ball in the corner. The other guy got out making it 10-9 and then made it twice in a row on the break. It was the most heartbreaking match I ever saw.
Heart in a player is priceless.

Fatboy
12-25-2007, 04:32 PM
I don't know fatboy, but I'm sick of his posting--"I'm not bragging about how rich I am" followed by my 15k cues or my trillion dollar mansion. He comes across as the poor me Im just a rich beyond belief guy buy I'm sad cause I have no family :( I know Fatboy has his following of ass kissers cause they've never met a millionaire on their forums before. Just my obsevation

your right, except there are alot of millionairs on this board and they are good friends, i dont count other peoples $$$, I look at the content of their charcter, I have nothing to sell them so it dosent matter what they have. I dont want or need any ass kissers in my life, infact when people do that, and your right again, and they do I shy away from them as I know they have an angle and I dont like that. See I like you because you call it how you feel and for that I respect you. And your right again I have no family and that hurts, I dont want any phony friends to fill the void in my life of not having any family, instead I have good friends who dont kiss my ass, count my $$$ etc. You have a good handle on figuring me out and again I respect that. can we be friends? i'm not joking. i make an effort to get along with everyone. To give you a little more insight into me, my favorite house I own is 2000 sqft. I also live in a guest house behind my main house, it suits me better. It aint all flash, were all the same at the end of the day, it what we do during the day that counts, I wish I played pool better. I dont run around with a bunch of phony frinds an entrough(cant spell that word) i go alone, i fly under the radar most of the time.

merry christmas

wizardnblue
12-25-2007, 04:49 PM
heart is:
Running until you pass out because your body says no and your mind says yes.
Being a girl goalie on a mens soccer team, getting slamed, kicked and cleated and looking forward to the next game. because you are a goalie.
Having a baby on a saturday and going into your navy nuclear class on monday for finals because thats what you worked for.
Going to Iraq because thats what your trained for and leaving your daughter with your parents for eight months.
I feel my daughter has heart.
Happy New Years to all, and Best Wishes.

JimS
12-25-2007, 05:47 PM
Here's two guys who have PLENTY of HEART.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071223/ap_on_re_us/saving_ala_a
JoeyA

Yep.... that's Heart. You make up your mind that the "right thing" will get done and then you git'r done! Heart lights the way and your body does the foot work.

Scott Lee
12-25-2007, 06:47 PM
He's much closer to Terre Haute than Evansville...and a very short hop, skip and jump from Bloomington (but still too far to go over and find someone to play with! :rolleyes: ).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com


I noticed youre in southwest indiana? You anywhere near evansville?

DrCue'sProtege
12-25-2007, 06:52 PM
He's much closer to Terre Haute than Evansville...and a very short hop, skip and jump from Bloomington (but still too far to go over and find someone to play with! :rolleyes: ).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

nope, i am actually closer to evansville than i am terre haute. not by much, perhaps 5-10 minutes.

DCP

raybo147
12-26-2007, 07:41 AM
Great thread Fatboy. The best examples of this on the table I saw (sorry I am a snooker player!) had to have been Dennis Taylor 1985. He just is not supposed to win that match (World Finals against Davis). Losing 8-0 and 9-1, he showed incredible heart to come back and take it 18-17. At this time Davis was killing everybody and he pretty much never lost from infront. Also Paul Hunter was an example to everybody what heart is. It was heartbreaking to see him losing to guys that could only dream to have his ability but every match he played he gave it evrything. RIP Paul it was a pleasure to meet you and have you wipe the table with me.

Scaramouche
12-26-2007, 09:13 AM
I don't know fatboy, but I'm sick of his posting--"I'm not bragging about how rich I am" followed by my 15k cues or my trillion dollar mansion. He comes across as the poor me Im just a rich beyond belief guy buy I'm sad cause I have no family :( I know Fatboy has his following of ass kissers cause they've never met a millionaire on their forums before. Just my obsevation

Thomas Stanley and William Danko wrote 'The Millionaire Next Door'. In their research they profiled people who typically get rich:

Place far more emphasis on saving than consuming

Live below their means

Typically self-employed and run a small business

Not flashy

Industrious disciplined conservative

Make money because they are very good at what they do

Productivity and passion for work is the common denominator. The money merely arises from their efforts. Their focus is not to pile up money, it is to run their business well.

As to millionaires on this forum, there are probably far more than you suspect, millionaire being defined as one who has more than $1,000,000 in investable assets.

In my country, interest income is fully taxable, so investing a million in government bonds will give an after-tax income that is close to the poverty line, not to mention that inflation will erode the purchasing power of that million and the annual income it can deliver without risk.

If you are rich and want to stay rich you have to accept risks - or keep working.:D

PoolBum
12-26-2007, 10:43 AM
Heart has absolutely nothing to do with money. IMO, they are mutually exclusive. They can co-exist, but one does not depend on the other.



Not to pick a nit, but being "mutually exclusive" means precisely that they cannot co-exist. I agree with you about heart not being about money though.

BigCat
12-26-2007, 07:28 PM
Not to pick a nit, but being "mutually exclusive" means precisely that they cannot co-exist. I agree with you about heart not being about money though.

You are correct. Mutually exclusive is not the correct phrasing I was intending. I should have stated that "one does not depend on the other".

Fatboy
12-26-2007, 08:09 PM
Thomas Stanley and William Danko wrote 'The Millionaire Next Door'. In their research they profiled people who typically get rich:

Place far more emphasis on saving than consuming

Live below their means

Typically self-employed and run a small business

Not flashy

Industrious disciplined conservative

Make money because they are very good at what they do

Productivity and passion for work is the common denominator. The money merely arises from their efforts. Their focus is not to pile up money, it is to run their business well.

As to millionaires on this forum, there are probably far more than you suspect, millionaire being defined as one who has more than $1,000,000 in investable assets.

In my country, interest income is fully taxable, so investing a million in government bonds will give an after-tax income that is close to the poverty line, not to mention that inflation will erode the purchasing power of that million and the annual income it can deliver without risk.

If you are rich and want to stay rich you have to accept risks - or keep working.:D


that describes me, I have a little flash to keep it fun but its far less than I could "Spend" if I lived large. I like to spend my $$$ on things that hold their value like watches, cues as opposed to plasma TV's, whores, coke, strippers etc. that way you build your assett base, yeah taxes hurt...bad but if you want to own things and not look over your shoulder gotta pay.

philw
12-27-2007, 10:26 AM
I've had time to give this heart thing more thought and I think a great example of heart is George Bailey (It's a Wonderful Life). One of the best movies ever made. Philw

ShootingArts
12-27-2007, 11:30 AM
I've had time to give this heart thing more thought and I think a great example of heart is George Bailey (It's a Wonderful Life). One of the best movies ever made. Philw

That is a bit wider definition than what heart is in pool but in the widest definition I think "heart" encompasses all of the human virtues and none of our flaws.

Hu

lfigueroa
12-27-2007, 03:38 PM
I want to hear everyone's own personal defination of what exactly heart is. Since I entered the DCC 10Ball ring game I have been told I'm a rich guy buying my into something, on the flip side I have heard that I have alot of alot heart to enter it because it will put me in the spot light and expose any weakness I have, I dont want this defination to be about me and what I'm doing, i'm out of the picture for this thread.

What this is about what is "heart" in your mind?, just betting high isnt it to me, because its all relitave to ones bankroll. Is it the willingness of a player to step up and take a huge risk in action? Playing over their head? Out running the nuts? Is it to see how many barrels a player will fire? Is it taking a shot at someone you dont know? Is it having the guts to take the worst of it infront of alot of people? Is it playing through the tough times until your game comes back? Finding a way to win? How deep you dig into your soul to keep playing? Is it a go-off who plays til he is flat? Entering a tournment? Playing leagues? Practicing 6 hours a day with dedication? Sacrificing having a relationship with a girl and other things in life-total dedication? Going on the road? Etc...

There are a million different definatons in my mind and I want to know what everyones opinion is, again leave me and what i'm doing out of this, this aint about me. Its a term I have heard a million times in pool rooms all over the world-mostly here in America from my experience. I have heard it here(AZ) too, its used loosley by D players up to Champions. You'll hear "Bartram has alot of heart" often, with that statment or similar statments in mind, please eloborate on what heart really means to you, your own personal opinion. I know there are as many answeres to this as questions, so lets hear them. Please no knocks in this thread-those speak for themselfs.

I have often wondered about my peers in pool and what their idea of what it is, since I hear it so often. But please generalize this isnt about anyone person or event like Bartram etc. its about your the interpation of the word.

Everyone thinks they have it thus everyone here has to have a opinion of what makes a player have heart.

(sorry my spelling is awful today)


Heart is being able to play your ordinary game under extraordinary circumstances.

Lou Figueroa

jay helfert
12-27-2007, 03:42 PM
Heart is being able to play your ordinary game under extraordinary circumstances.

Lou Figueroa

This is a great answer. It belongs in a book!

HollyWood
12-30-2007, 08:54 AM
Playing has nothing to do with heart- winning does, all your doing is gaining valuable experience in playing at the derby. Playing here has nothing to do with the open or other tournements. So step into the ring ( of fire )and see how badly you get burn't or not. If you have done the practicing it will pay off -or not. Your just an indepenent, no backers, and when you win some cash its all yours or not. Nobody can make you feel anything! except (me) mark

lfigueroa
01-02-2008, 06:44 PM
This is a great answer. It belongs in a book!

Thanks, Jay.

Lou Figueroa
still working on the book