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View Full Version : Allison is in the 9 ball at the DCC. Predictions?


Terry Ardeno
01-10-2008, 12:44 PM
Allison Fisher is playing in the 9 ball division. How far do you think she'll go?
I'm glad to see her playing in it. I believe she's the greatest female 9 ball of all time. Can't wait to see what pans out here.
I beleive that SJM is one of our foremost authorities on the women pros and I'm very interested in his opinion.

How far do you all think she'll go? What would you say the odds were on her winning the title? Keep in mind, these are short races to 7.

beetle
01-10-2008, 12:51 PM
This is historic as I don't think she's ever played DCC before. I'm glad she's in the field and, while I'm no sjm, I fully expect that she will finish in the top 20.

Allison Fisher is playing in the 9 ball division. How far do you think she'll go?
I'm glad to see her playing in it. I believe she's the greatest female 9 ball of all time. Can't wait to see what pans out here.
I beleive that SJM is one of our foremost authorities on the women pros and I'm very interested in his opinion.

How far do you all think she'll go? What would you say the odds were on her winning the title? Keep in mind, these are short races to 7.

StevenPWaldon
01-10-2008, 12:52 PM
In a short race to 7, it's anyone's game. The DCC draws in more competitors than the US Open, year after year. I think everyone is an underdog to make it to the top of the DCC 9-ball Hill. That said, I think Allison has a decent chance of making it to the top 32 amidst all the world beaters.

The only thing I'm not sure about is how she does playing with men. She rarely plays outside the WPBA, whereas Karen Corr has already demonstrated her success across multiple tours (mens, womens tours).

Allison Fisher is playing in the 9 ball division. How far do you think she'll go?
I'm glad to see her playing in it. I believe she's the greatest female 9 ball of all time. Can't wait to see what pans out here.
I beleive that SJM is one of our foremost authorities on the women pros and I'm very interested in his opinion.

How far do you all think she'll go? What would you say the odds were on her winning the title? Keep in mind, these are short races to 7.

freddy the beard
01-10-2008, 01:30 PM
Allison may be gearing up for next year's bank event. She just purchased my new bank DVD, "Bank shots that dont go-- but do." Now there's a girl with good taste.

the Beard

Johnnyt
01-10-2008, 01:41 PM
It depends on the draw and the rolls. She can do as well as Karen or better. Johnnyt

Cuaba
01-10-2008, 01:43 PM
If the rolls & draw even out, she should be in the top 25%.

Andrew Manning
01-10-2008, 02:15 PM
If she's playing well, I don't think anyone is guaranteed to beat her in a race to 7.

But at the same time as saying nobody has to beat her, I predict somebody will, and well before she makes it to the finals. I don't think she has enough experience competing against top male pros to run all the way through a field full of them.

-Andrew

BVal
01-10-2008, 02:46 PM
she won her first match.

mosconiac
01-10-2008, 02:56 PM
I feel she or Corr could comfortably do top 32. Is Corr playing?

If either gets a good draw I would expect them to squeak into a top 20. A great draw and they might be a threat for top 10.

Of all the women, they have the skills and mental toughness to pull it off.

mnorwood
01-10-2008, 05:00 PM
Corr has beaten top male players.

One major factor that would affect her chances are the break rules. Can they break from the side? Is it winner breaks? Alternating?

worriedbeef
01-10-2008, 05:21 PM
like a couple of others have said too, i'm not sure whether allison will be able to play her top game in such a different environment against the men. but if she does bring her 'A' game then she could go far. but she's by no means a favourite.

one woman player i really would like to have seen at the derby is jasmin ouschan. she has the potential to be the greatest woman player ever. a trip to the DCC would have done wonders for her game. as it would for anybody of course.

sjm
01-10-2008, 05:29 PM
Allison Fisher is playing in the 9 ball division. How far do you think she'll go?
I'm glad to see her playing in it. I believe she's the greatest female 9 ball of all time. Can't wait to see what pans out here.
I believe that SJM is one of our foremost authorities on the women pros and I'm very interested in his opinion.

How far do you all think she'll go? What would you say the odds were on her winning the title? Keep in mind, these are short races to 7.

Well, Terry , this is a toughie. To be honest, despite her general excellence, this is a deep, talented field and I can't bring myself to think she's even one of the twenty five best. I'd guess she's closer to being fiftieth best in this field.

Her chance of winning the event is near zero, though a top ten is just about conceivable.

You know I'll be rooting for her, but my guess is that she'll come around fiftieth.

branpureza
01-10-2008, 05:36 PM
i doubt she'll cash.

RED NAXELA
01-10-2008, 06:36 PM
If she's playing well, I don't think anyone is guaranteed to beat her in a race to 7.

But at the same time as saying nobody has to beat her, I predict somebody will, and well before she makes it to the finals. I don't think she has enough experience competing against top male pros to run all the way through a field full of them.

-Andrew

If it's alternate breaks, Allison has more than an even chance to make it to the last 32. If not, she would be lucky to crack top 60.

PoolBum
01-10-2008, 07:56 PM
I don't know how she'll do, but I'm glad to see she's playing. I hope she goes far.

Fragged
01-10-2008, 08:05 PM
...She won her second match and had a break where she dropped 4 or maybe 5 balls. SHe was playing OK, not great. I am pulling for her.

av84fun
01-10-2008, 09:44 PM
In a short race to 7, it's anyone's game. The DCC draws in more competitors than the US Open, year after year. I think everyone is an underdog to make it to the top of the DCC 9-ball Hill. That said, I think Allison has a decent chance of making it to the top 32 amidst all the world beaters.

The only thing I'm not sure about is how she does playing with men. She rarely plays outside the WPBA, whereas Karen Corr has already demonstrated her success across multiple tours (mens, womens tours).

Last time I looked, pool balls were gender neutral. She plays the layout not the opponent. She is one of the most "mentally tough" players in the world and won't rattle just because there are 11 balls near the table instead of 9 ! (-:

Both Alli and Kim are 2-0 before the fire alarm went off. Don't know if they'll have another match tonight.

Regards
Jim

av84fun
01-10-2008, 09:49 PM
Call me what you will, but if the races were longer Alli wouldn't win more than a couple of matches against the men...

Do you really see her consitantly beating the top 100 men?

I don't

Top 100??? Sure. she is better than plenty of the top 100...especially in a rational alternate break format not an irrational winner breaks format.

DCC has to go winner because they have so many players...400+ this year.

Buy...hey...it's not too late. Let's all sign a petition to the NFL to change the Superbowl format to "winner receives." Same difference.

(-:

av84fun
01-10-2008, 09:54 PM
...She won her second match and had a break where she dropped 4 or maybe 5 balls. SHe was playing OK, not great. I am pulling for her.

It was 4 on the break...poor weak little girlie. (-:

Jay Helfert remarked to me that he didn't think she could break that well.

I only remember her missing one shot...and she won 7-1. What did I forget?

Regards,
Jim

Fragged
01-10-2008, 10:25 PM
.
...and im going to pick her to make the top 32.

av84fun
01-10-2008, 10:35 PM
LOL @ the football comparison.



Winner breaks, there are at least 100 men that should be favored over Alli... Hell I would think that there are 20 Filipino's alone that would beat her.

If it's alternating breaks, that may be a different story.

Genuinely, I don't know what the stats are. In men's pro pool, what % of the time does the breaker win?

Do you have that information?

What I do know is that the player pushing out is the favorite to lose so to be the favorite to win, you have to:

A. Break, make a ball or more and have a look at the low ball.

B. Break dry and not leave a look at the low ball.

Also, what is the break and run % for top male players?

Thanks in advance if you know the answers. Just curious.

Regards,
Jim

Thanks,
Jim

Fragged
01-10-2008, 11:16 PM
Genuinely, I don't know what the stats are. In men's pro pool, what % of the time does the breaker win?

Do you have that information?

What I do know is that the player pushing out is the favorite to lose so to be the favorite to win, you have to:

A. Break, make a ball or more and have a look at the low ball.

B. Break dry and not leave a look at the low ball.

Also, what is the break and run % for top male players?

Thanks in advance if you know the answers. Just curious.

Regards,
Jim

Thanks,
Jim


Accustats did a study a while back and determined that the non breaker won more than not-maybe 55-45%. It was a bit surprising.

atthecat
01-10-2008, 11:56 PM
top 100. If she's lucky.

av84fun
01-11-2008, 01:13 AM
Accustats did a study a while back and determined that the non breaker won more than not-maybe 55-45%. It was a bit surprising.

Right. Bob Jewett mentioned that statistic...but he said "That was before the tight rack." I assume me meant the Sardo but that seems not to be used much anymore in pro tournaments.

Yes, surprising and interesting.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
01-11-2008, 01:41 AM
top 100. If she's lucky.

Really? Wow. I'm just curious what you base that assumption on?

Are you aware that in the past few years, the following women have placed in the MONEY...not just the top 100 (they pay out to 60th place or so.)

Tiffany Nelson...40th
Alice Rim...61st
Sarah Rousey...20th
Jeannette Lee...31st
Sharon Weiss...48th

No disrespect to those fine players but even they would admit that Allison clearly plays at a much different level.

You certainly could be right. We'll just have to wait and see.

Regards,
Jim

Roy Steffensen
01-11-2008, 02:13 AM
Genuinely, I don't know what the stats are. In men's pro pool, what % of the time does the breaker win?

Do you have that information?

What I do know is that the player pushing out is the favorite to lose so to be the favorite to win, you have to:

A. Break, make a ball or more and have a look at the low ball.

B. Break dry and not leave a look at the low ball.

Also, what is the break and run % for top male players?

Thanks in advance if you know the answers. Just curious.

Regards,
Jim

Thanks,
Jim

In 9-ball on the eurotour equipment I know that Niels Feijen had a Break&Run % of amazing 78 on a practise session together with Mosconoicup-coach for Team Europe, Johan R. :o

I guess Niels, Alex and Nick doesn't run out that often everytime they play, so I guess the Pros have maybe 45 - 50 %. (The best pros had about 40-45 % on IPT, if my memory are correct...)

I am doing stats on all of my own matches in practise and tournaments. Normal B&R in 9-ball is about 15-20 %. 2 weeks ago I played a tournament in Sweden, lost in the groupstages and gambled 8 sets in 9-ball, race to 7 instead. Had 14 B&R on 56 games, which is 25 %. So I guess I am half-pro then :D :D :D

I believe Allison has a fair chance of finishing top 10.

Jasmin Ouschan has finished 5th and 9th on the Eurotour, which is the hardest 9-ball tour in the world, with about 256 of the best poolplayers in Europe on each of the 7 tournaments.

Roy Steffensen
01-11-2008, 02:15 AM
Genuinely, I don't know what the stats are. In men's pro pool, what % of the time does the breaker win?

Do you have that information?

Regards,
Jim

Thanks,
Jim

My own stats again:

If I am winning the lag I will win 61 % of my matches.

softshot
01-11-2008, 03:06 AM
why wouldn't she be the favorite? when it comes to running 9 balls (usually less) for money.. she comes with the shots year after year after year.

Archer, Reyes, Strickland, do any of them have as many consecutive world titles?

do any come close?

I don't see the big gender gap in pool this isn't NFL football where women simply can't compete. this is about eyes and fine motor skills.

How any man is forced to give weight to Ms Fisher is beyond me. she is better at this game than 99% of us will ever be.

Allison Fisher isn't a great WOMENS player... She is a great player period..

I pick her to win the whole thing... name someone else who has won more 9 ball titles ... then name someone who has won more consecutive 9 ball titles..

name anyone..

That chick can flat out play.

raybo147
01-11-2008, 04:20 AM
These races are so short it is a wide open tournament which is what makes it so great. Didn't Anna Kostanian just beat Tony Chohan? I hear Anna plays great but I don't think I would pick her gambling with T-rex even. Allison has a chance to go deep but she is one of about 150 people who pretty much have the same chance she has. Short races means you jump quick out of the gates or you are done. It is cool that she is playing, I am surprised but it is good for us and for her. Please guys if she flares out early nobody come on here and say that she can't play with the men because lots of top male pros will go out of this event early too.

Snapshot9
01-11-2008, 05:05 AM
like this needs to be a Vbookie event, betting on how high Allison finishes, and maybe Karen too???

rossaroni
01-11-2008, 05:16 AM
why wouldn't she be the favorite? when it comes to running 9 balls (usually less) for money.. she comes with the shots year after year after year.

Archer, Reyes, Strickland, do any of them have as many consecutive world titles?

do any come close?

I don't see the big gender gap in pool this isn't NFL football where women simply can't compete. this is about eyes and fine motor skills.

How any man is forced to give weight to Ms Fisher is beyond me. she is better at this game than 99% of us will ever be.

Allison Fisher isn't a great WOMENS player... She is a great player period..

I pick her to win the whole thing... name someone else who has won more 9 ball titles ... then name someone who has won more consecutive 9 ball titles..

name anyone..

That chick can flat out play.

I understand your points and many of them I agree with....BUT, would she have as many titles if she had to play against the men all the time? She may have more titles then them, but I think Efren, Strickland, and Archer may try her some.
Good luck on you predicting her to win the whole tournament. Too bad you are not a betting man, cause if she comes through, you could get 1000-1 on your bet!:eek:

ironman
01-11-2008, 06:37 AM
Well, Terry , this is a toughie. To be honest, despite her general excellence, this is a deep, talented field and I can't bring myself to think she's even one of the twenty five best. I'd guess she's closer to being fiftieth best in this field.

Her chance of winning the event is near zero, though a top ten is just about conceivable.

You know I'll be rooting for her, but my guess is that she'll come around fiftieth.

I feel you have a pretty good assesment here. Most root for her to do well, but, it is so tough andespecially in thisenviroment.

I feel putting her in thetop 50 isvery generous and might not have her in my top 100. A lot can happen though.

Patrick Johnson
01-11-2008, 07:06 AM
...one woman player i really would like to have seen at the derby is jasmin ouschan. she has the potential to be the greatest woman player ever. a trip to the DCC would have done wonders for her game. as it would for anybody of course.

Unfortunately, Jasmin will always be at a disadvantage until she gets a little bigger:

:eek: :p

pj
chgo

http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57347&stc=1&d=1200060452

StevenPWaldon
01-11-2008, 08:34 AM
Pool balls are gender neutral, yes -- but tournaments aren't. Any time someone plays in a new situation, there is bound to be a learning curve. Imagine a road player deciding to go "pro" and leaving the hustling behind. The game is the same, but the mentality is different.

Last time I looked, pool balls were gender neutral. She plays the layout not the opponent. She is one of the most "mentally tough" players in the world and won't rattle just because there are 11 balls near the table instead of 9 ! (-:

Both Alli and Kim are 2-0 before the fire alarm went off. Don't know if they'll have another match tonight.

Regards
Jim

av84fun
01-11-2008, 10:00 AM
Pool balls are gender neutral, yes -- but tournaments aren't. Any time someone plays in a new situation, there is bound to be a learning curve. Imagine a road player deciding to go "pro" and leaving the hustling behind. The game is the same, but the mentality is different.

I hear what you're saying but there is nothing new here for Allison. It's a big tournament with lots of people milling around....nothing new there.

She just doesn't care that there is a man sitting in the chair when she is shooting pool. What she cares about is taking pride in every single shot she shoots.

She plays A LOT under tremendous pressure...on TV in the semis or finals for her grocery money and with cameras practically stuck in her ear.

Plus, as many posts in this and about a thousand other similar threads suggest, she has nothing to lose. She isn't "supposed to win." And yet every guy she plays risks becoming a soprano if they lose to her.

Bobby Pickle told me he was HUGELY nervous when he played Jeannette for exactly that reason...and dogged several shots to prove it.

Regards,

Jim

PS: Allison & Kim are now 3-0.
(-:

AZE
01-11-2008, 10:28 AM
Not far, unless she gets a soft board.... In that case I say she gets into the low cash.

Derek
01-11-2008, 02:14 PM
Are you aware that in the past few years, the following women have placed in the MONEY...not just the top 100 (they pay out to 60th place or so.)

Tiffany Nelson...40th
Alice Rim...61st
Sarah Rousey...20th
Jeannette Lee...31st
Sharon Weiss...48th

So based on that list is Sarah the highest-placing female that anyone can recall at an event like this? I see that Allison, Karen, Helena, and Tina Larsen all won their first two matches.

Johnnyt
01-11-2008, 02:23 PM
So based on that list is Sarah the highest-placing female that anyone can recall at an event like this? I see that Allison, Karen, Helena, and Tina Larsen all won their first two matches.

Corr won her first 2 matches also I believe. Johnnyt

MVPCues
01-11-2008, 03:03 PM
Tina dropped the 3rd round match. So far, Karen, Allison, Helena, and Kim Shaw have all won their first 3 matches. That is definitely a good start.

Kelly

cuechick
01-11-2008, 03:16 PM
Why isn't Monica playing in the 9 Ball?

Cuebacca
01-11-2008, 04:00 PM
PS: Allison & Kim are now 3-0.
(-:

Cool! Which champions did they beat so far?

BVal
01-11-2008, 04:22 PM
Cool! Which champions did they beat so far?
Its a tough crowd in here. I know Anna K beat T Chohan.
Which champions have you played at the DCC so far?

Johnnyt
01-11-2008, 04:29 PM
Tough crowd for sure in here:eek: ...but he's right. You have to take that into account. But one of the women will beat one of the to men before its over I believe. Johnnyt

Cuebacca
01-11-2008, 04:30 PM
Its a tough crowd in here. I know Anna K beat T Chohan.
Which champions have you played at the DCC so far?

Ah, the classic deflection. Poster A argues that Allison is not as good as some men. Poster B says, she's better than you, Poster A! Duh. :rolleyes:

Edited to add the much-needed roll-eyes emoticon. Here's one more for good measure: :rolleyes:

Cuebacca
01-11-2008, 04:36 PM
You have to understand too, that I'm not trying to be tough on AF or women in general. She's a champion, and I've never tried to take that away from her.

It's just that it's waaay too common for people to misinterpret each other's stance on this whole debate, and then they go off trying to grasp at straws to prove their points.

No one said that a women can not beat any man. However, some have said that this particular woman is not quite as good as some men. Any one who thinks that's sexist is really not reading very carefully.

MVPCues
01-11-2008, 04:47 PM
They have all beat who they have been put up against so far. Up to this point, that is all that matters. Even if none of them make the top 32, they are there, competing against the best in the world, and so far winning.

Knowing they don't play on the same level as the top men, and acknowledging they are champions and believing they could go very deep and make some noise in the tournament should not be viewed as contradictions. There is room for both realities.

Kelly

Cuebacca
01-11-2008, 04:54 PM
They have all beat who they have been put up against so far. Up to this point, that is all that matters. Even if none of them make the top 32, they are there, competing against the best in the world, and so far winning.

Knowing they don't play on the same level as the top men, and acknowledging they are champions and believing they could go very deep and make some noise in the tournament should not be viewed as contradictions. There is room for both realities.

Kelly

I agree. I just took av8's postscript as him saying that their 3-0 record proved more than it did. My post was just my way of saying, calm down, they shouldn't be crowned champion of the world yet. I usually just lurk in these threads because I have more to learn than to say. I just don't like seeing people trying to twist facts. That's why I posted. My own personal pool skill/experience immediately got questioned, which I find utterly hilarious and telling of the logic some apply to these debates.

Anyway, good post, Kelly.

Rip
01-11-2008, 05:26 PM
Allison F just beat Allen Hopkins 7-1.

Johnnyt
01-11-2008, 05:33 PM
Allison F just beat Allen Hopkins 7-1.
For real? Johnnyt

Jaden
01-11-2008, 05:39 PM
They have all beat who they have been put up against so far. Up to this point, that is all that matters. Even if none of them make the top 32, they are there, competing against the best in the world, and so far winning.

Knowing they don't play on the same level as the top men, and acknowledging they are champions and believing they could go very deep and make some noise in the tournament should not be viewed as contradictions. There is room for both realities.

Kelly

You are right, they are not the same thing..... and it is possible that one or more of them can go deep, but what people are saying is that it is less likely for the top women to go deep than 40 or 50 or 100 men going just as deep into the field depending on where the various people that have stated such stand.... And of course there are more men competing so it is statistically more probable that men in general would go deeper, so what they are saying is that they would pick out 40 or 50 or 100 specific men in the field that are more likely to go deep into the field.

Jaden

Rip
01-11-2008, 05:40 PM
I didn't stutter.
SSShhheee bbbeat Hhoppy 7-1.
For real.

av84fun
01-11-2008, 05:53 PM
I agree. I just took av8's postscript as him saying that their 3-0 record proved more than it did. My post was just my way of saying, calm down, they shouldn't be crowned champion of the world yet. I usually just lurk in these threads because I have more to learn than to say. I just don't like seeing people trying to twist facts. That's why I posted. My own personal pool skill/experience immediately got questioned, which I find utterly hilarious and telling of the logic some apply to these debates.

Anyway, good post, Kelly.

First, don't take my posts to mean anything except what is stated therein. I didn't say it proved anything. As for you question as to what champions she has beaten, as you know know, the answer to that is Hopkins...7-1.

That is her THIRD 7-1 win. So, did she shake in her boots at the thought of playing a male world champion as some thought she would? NOPE.

And she drilled his nuts.
(-:

av84fun
01-11-2008, 05:56 PM
Call me what you will, but if the races were longer Alli wouldn't win more than a couple of matches against the men...

Do you really see her consitantly beating the top 100 men?

I don't

I won't call you anything except uninformed about how well she plays. Now 5-0 with two 7-1 whippings...one against a world champion.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
01-11-2008, 05:57 PM
i doubt she'll cash.

That would have been a bad bet!
(-:

av84fun
01-11-2008, 05:58 PM
If it's alternate breaks, Allison has more than an even chance to make it to the last 32. If not, she would be lucky to crack top 60.

5-0 with two 7-1 wins. Yup, she's REALLY...ummmm...lucky!

(-:

av84fun
01-11-2008, 06:00 PM
top 100. If she's lucky.

Wrong.

(-:

av84fun
01-11-2008, 06:03 PM
Pool balls are gender neutral, yes -- but tournaments aren't. Any time someone plays in a new situation, there is bound to be a learning curve. Imagine a road player deciding to go "pro" and leaving the hustling behind. The game is the same, but the mentality is different.

Re-read my post about her mental toughness.

I guess she's just lucky though at 5-0 with two 7-1 wins including a world champ.

(-:

raybo147
01-11-2008, 06:05 PM
I didn't stutter.
SSShhheee bbbeat Hhoppy 7-1.
For real.
I never thought Allison would do this again. She has taken a lot of flak with the whole men/women thing going back to her snooker days and I for sure thought that she was done with it, but here she is putting herself out there for all us to speculate again. I really don't think she could care less wether anybody thinks she is as good as the men or not and even though she beat Allen who I have gone drinking with and played locals for beers with and is one of the nicest and coolest guys any of us will ever meet, I am happy for her. Allison is a top class player who has made a great living playing pool. She knows a lot of people kinda want her to get steamrolled so the 'I told she can't beat men' threads will start up. What you guys forget is that she has been playing great under the gun for 20 years now and she just plays the balls and she is always tough to beat. Keep it up Allison a lot of us are rooting for you. Why don't we all look at her as a player and not as a girl because that's what she is right now.

Cuebacca
01-11-2008, 06:26 PM
First, don't take my posts to mean anything except what is stated therein. I didn't say it proved anything.

Sorry. It was an honest mistake. ;)

As for you question as to what champions she has beaten, as you know know, the answer to that is Hopkins...7-1.

You said she was 3-0, and since I thought you were using that to prove something, I asked which champions were included in that. Now you answer, Hopkins. Sorry, but Hopkins wasn't one of the first 3 players she beat. I'm not saying that Allison got lucky, but I will say that YOU did. :p :D

That is her THIRD 7-1 win. So, did she shake in her boots at the thought of playing a male world champion as some thought she would? NOPE.

And she drilled his nuts.
(-:

That term seems a little disrespectful to me, since you're talking about Allen Hopkins, who is a champion and a class act. No matter what you say, I would presume Allen is mature enough not to feel emasculated by losing to a woman, who happens to be champion herself.

Congrats to Allison on her strong showing thus far. :)

MVPCues
01-11-2008, 06:33 PM
I agree. I just took av8's postscript as him saying that their 3-0 record proved more than it did. My post was just my way of saying, calm down, they shouldn't be crowned champion of the world yet. I usually just lurk in these threads because I have more to learn than to say. I just don't like seeing people trying to twist facts. That's why I posted. My own personal pool skill/experience immediately got questioned, which I find utterly hilarious and telling of the logic some apply to these debates.

Anyway, good post, Kelly.

Its all good with me, my posts are to add my thoughts to the thread as a whole, I wasn't answering or directing my post to anyone too terribly specific.

Kelly

MVPCues
01-11-2008, 06:39 PM
You are right, they are not the same thing..... and it is possible that one or more of them can go deep, but what people are saying is that it is less likely for the top women to go deep than 40 or 50 or 100 men going just as deep into the field depending on where the various people that have stated such stand.... And of course there are more men competing so it is statistically more probable that men in general would go deeper, so what they are saying is that they would pick out 40 or 50 or 100 specific men in the field that are more likely to go deep into the field.

Jaden

Spending more than just a few hours during my career doing all sorts of statistical tests and writing up the results for journals, I certainly understand what you are saying, and by no means made any predictions they would go very deep despite the odds against. But when 4 of the few female players in the tournament all win their first 3 matches, that is probably statistically significant already, and worth taking note of IMO.

I see nobody posted what Kim, Karen, and Helena did in their 4th and 5th matches, only Allison going 5 and 0. I presume the other 3 gals must have dropped some matches.

Kelly

cuechick
01-11-2008, 06:41 PM
Pool balls are gender neutral, yes -- but tournaments aren't. Any time someone plays in a new situation, there is bound to be a learning curve. Imagine a road player deciding to go "pro" and leaving the hustling behind. The game is the same, but the mentality is different.

What "new situation" are you talking about, playing men? Alison is no stranger to playing men, she grew up playing snooker, playing men all the time and beating them! Some of the best in the world! I seriously doubt this is even a remote concern for her.

AuntyDan
01-11-2008, 06:47 PM
Seeing as how the inestimable Mr. Trotter seems to be asleep at the switch I should just point out here that you are all forgetting that Ms. Fisher is playing with unbeatable playing power of a Cuetec professional cue.

Even a girl can win with one of those!

Go Ally!

cuechick
01-11-2008, 08:42 PM
From AZ's front page....

Karen Corr, Allison Fisher, Anna Kostanian and Helena Thornfeldt all won their fourth round matches. Kostanian defeated Sylver Ochoa, Corr defeated Canadian hot-shot John Morra and Fisher defeated Nathan Rose.



And they left out Kim Shaw...

All still in and heading into the 6th round....I believe all have buy backs expcept for Karen!

av84fun
01-11-2008, 10:23 PM
Sorry. It was an honest mistake. ;)



You said she was 3-0, and since I thought you were using that to prove something, I asked which champions were included in that.

Now you answer, Hopkins. Sorry, but Hopkins wasn't one of the first 3 players she beat. I'm not saying that Allison got lucky, but I will say that YOU did. :p :D

Did I say he was? There ya go interpreting again! (-:

I even said..."Now you know..." (although I misspelled "now."



That term seems a little disrespectful to me, since you're talking about Allen Hopkins, who is a champion and a class act. No matter what you say, I would presume Allen is mature enough not to feel emasculated by losing to a woman, who happens to be champion herself.

Sorry that offended you. I assumed you were more familiar with pool venacular. "Having the nuts" and other similar phrases are just figures of speech and not intended to emasculate anyone.

But obviously, your question about whether she had beaten any champions was a thinly disguised slight...which you are VERY good at by the way. And so the point of my post...as I am sure you know...was to say that not only did she beat a champion...but beat him "soundly"...

Which is not an insinuation that he is hard of hearing...or

She beat him "handily" which does not mean that he has love handles..or

She beat the "tar" out of him...which does not actually suggest that he has any tar in him...

(-:

av84fun
01-11-2008, 10:35 PM
From AZ's front page....

Karen Corr, Allison Fisher, Anna Kostanian and Helena Thornfeldt all won their fourth round matches. Kostanian defeated Sylver Ochoa, Corr defeated Canadian hot-shot John Morra and Fisher defeated Nathan Rose.



And they left out Kim Shaw...

All still in and heading into the 6th round....I believe all have buy backs expcept for Karen!

Kim got her second loss tonight in Round 6 so she had a VERY respectable 4-2 record and finished in the money.

Alli lost to Grossman...a tough player...7-5 and will draw into Round 7 tomorrow.

Helena lost to SVB.

Karen totally dominated her match. I was trying to watch all four and may have missed something, but I didn't see Karen miss a single shot.

What was VERY cool is that all four women, karen, alli, kim and helena were matched up on adjacent tables to start Round 6 AND THEY ALL WON THE FIRST RACK from their opponents!!

There were at least 200 sweaters...even though the 1 Hole finals was going on...and they were heavily favoring the ladies.

So, that is AT LEAST four women in the top 60 and it ain't over yet...so possibly some of those who were so sure that alli/karen couldn 't even finish in the top 100 let alone get in the money will understand how badly they underestimate those two...unless you think they ALL got lucky...in which case, I would recommend therapy for your self-esteem issues.

(-:

Jim

av84fun
01-11-2008, 10:53 PM
I never thought Allison would do this again. She has taken a lot of flak with the whole men/women thing going back to her snooker days and I for sure thought that she was done with it, but here she is putting herself out there for all us to speculate again. I really don't think she could care less wether anybody thinks she is as good as the men or not and even though she beat Allen who I have gone drinking with and played locals for beers with and is one of the nicest and coolest guys any of us will ever meet, I am happy for her. Allison is a top class player who has made a great living playing pool. She knows a lot of people kinda want her to get steamrolled so the 'I told she can't beat men' threads will start up. What you guys forget is that she has been playing great under the gun for 20 years now and she just plays the balls and she is always tough to beat. Keep it up Allison a lot of us are rooting for you. Why don't we all look at her as a player and not as a girl because that's what she is right now.

Great post Raybo...and you are right...she doesn't give a hoot who she plays. All she cares about is how SHE plays.

And while she...and all other women seem to have more than their share of detractors here, I can tell you that at the DCC the crowds are WAY on the women's side.

Regards,
Jim

MVPCues
01-12-2008, 06:06 AM
Kim got her second loss tonight in Round 6 so she had a VERY respectable 4-2 record and finished in the money.

Alli lost to Grossman...a tough player...7-5 and will draw into Round 7 tomorrow.

Helena lost to SVB.

Karen totally dominated her match. I was trying to watch all four and may have missed something, but I didn't see Karen miss a single shot.

What was VERY cool is that all four women, karen, alli, kim and helena were matched up on adjacent tables to start Round 6 AND THEY ALL WON THE FIRST RACK from their opponents!!

There were at least 200 sweaters...even though the 1 Hole finals was going on...and they were heavily favoring the ladies.

So, that is AT LEAST four women in the top 60 and it ain't over yet...so possibly some of those who were so sure that alli/karen couldn 't even finish in the top 100 let alone get in the money will understand how badly they underestimate those two...unless you think they ALL got lucky...in which case, I would recommend therapy for your self-esteem issues.

(-:

Jim

Anna played in round 6 also, no? With the assumption she dropped her match, that means it is down to Karen, Allison, and Helena in round 7, none with buy backs? I believe Helena's loss to Shane was her first.

Kelly

cuechick
01-12-2008, 08:04 AM
Anna played in round 6 also, no? With the assumption she dropped her match, that means it is down to Karen, Allison, and Helena in round 7, none with buy backs? I believe Helena's loss to Shane was her first.

Kelly

If Anna did lose, I think she still had a buyback left?

MVPCues
01-12-2008, 08:49 AM
If Anna did lose, I think she still had a buyback left?

She lost to Slivka in the 5th round. Still, 6th round is better than even odds (assuming John beat her in round 6).

Kelly

alstl
01-12-2008, 09:25 AM
From AZ's front page....

Karen Corr, Allison Fisher, Anna Kostanian and Helena Thornfeldt all won their fourth round matches. Kostanian defeated Sylver Ochoa, Corr defeated Canadian hot-shot John Morra and Fisher defeated Nathan Rose.



And they left out Kim Shaw...

All still in and heading into the 6th round....I believe all have buy backs expcept for Karen!


I just watched a match on propoolvideo.com which Nathan Rose won in the finals of a tournament on the Southeast Open 9 ball tour. He is a strong player and that's a nice win for Allison.

vagabond
01-12-2008, 09:29 AM
[QUOTE=av84fun

Which is not an insinuation that he is hard of hearing...or

She beat him "handily" which does not mean that he has love handles..or

She beat the "tar" out of him...which does not actually suggest that he has any tar in him...

(-:[/QUOTE]

cheers,
did u forget to say "she skunked him" which does not mean he is a skunk?:D :cool: :D

vagabond
01-12-2008, 09:39 AM
There were at least 200 sweaters...even though the 1 Hole finals was going on...and they were heavily favoring the ladies.
(-:
Jim

If that is the case ,what I have been hearing all my life -' sex sells in America' -is proved to be true.:cool: :D :cool:

MVPCues
01-12-2008, 12:54 PM
Allison and Karen in the final 28, round 8. If one or both can win again, it will get very interested.

Kelly

pwd72s
01-12-2008, 01:02 PM
Is it considered bad form to root for the ladies?

MVPCues
01-12-2008, 01:05 PM
Is it considered bad form to root for the ladies?

I don't think it is bad form to root for anyone as long as you don't disrespect the other player(s).

Kelly

pwd72s
01-12-2008, 01:06 PM
Okay then...Go Allison-Go Karen...guys need an ego smack now & then...:rolleyes:

av84fun
01-12-2008, 01:29 PM
Allison and Karen finish Top 29. Alli lost to the VERY strong young gun Adam Smith.

However, in the prior round, Alli beat Charlie Williams 7-1. That was three wins at 7-1, two of which were against champions...Williams and Hopkins.

Two women finished top 29 and four (I think) finished in the money...
Alli, Kim Shaw, Karen, Helena..I'm not sure about Anna.

GREAT going ladies. No apologies are required of those who suggested that they would not finish top 100 let alone in the money since being wrong doesn't require an apology.

I just think that those who had such opinions just had no idea how strong a few of the women are...especially Alli and Karen.

I wasn't able to see all of every match because I was sweating Bobby Pickle, Kim and Alli, but I only saw Alli miss 3 shots in all 8 rounds.

CONGRATULATIONS!

Regards,
Jim

beetle
01-12-2008, 03:32 PM
Congratulations to Allison Fisher and the the other women. Allison plays with so few mistakes and as long as she plays at that high level, it doesn't matter who she's playing, she would be very hard to beat.

While she didn't make the top 20 as I expected, she did surprise a lot of people whose expectations were considerably lower. And she did not have an easy draw. Nobody has an easy draw with this field.

I hope we get to see the women compete with the men more frequently in the future.

Allison and Karen finish Top 29. Alli lost to the VERY strong young gun Adam Smith.

However, in the prior round, Alli beat Charlie Williams 7-1. That was three wins at 7-1, two of which were against champions...Williams and Hopkins.

Two women finished top 29 and four (I think) finished in the money...
Alli, Kim Shaw, Karen, Helena..I'm not sure about Anna.

GREAT going ladies. No apologies are required of those who suggested that they would not finish top 100 let alone in the money since being wrong doesn't require an apology.

I just think that those who had such opinions just had no idea how strong a few of the women are...especially Alli and Karen.

I wasn't able to see all of every match because I was sweating Bobby Pickle, Kim and Alli, but I only saw Alli miss 3 shots in all 8 rounds.

CONGRATULATIONS!

Regards,
Jim

wayne
01-12-2008, 03:42 PM
While she didn't make the top 20 as I expected, she did surprise a lot of people whose expectations were considerably lower.

She tied for 19th.

beetle
01-12-2008, 03:46 PM
She tied for 19th.

Oh, I stand corrected! I wish I had money on that prediction in that case! :D

av84fun
01-12-2008, 08:08 PM
Oh, I stand corrected! I wish I had money on that prediction in that case! :D

Right. Gotta be careful on how you word the bet. "top 29" can be the same thing as "tied for 19th" depending on how many are tied at the same level.

(-:

av84fun
01-12-2008, 08:51 PM
Here are my nominees for a class in Pool Match Handicapping Remdial Training! (-:

BPG24
Call me what you will, but if the races were longer Alli wouldn't win more than a couple of matches against the men...

Do you really see her consitantly beating the top 100 men?

I don't
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________

branpureza

i doubt she'll cash.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

RED NAXELA
If it's alternate breaks, Allison has more than an even chance to make it to the last 32. If not, she would be lucky to crack top 60.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________

atthecat

top 100. If she's lucky.

ironman

I feel putting her in thetop 50 isvery generous and might not have her in my top 100. A lot can happen though.
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________

AZE

Not far, unless she gets a soft board.... In that case I say she gets into the low cash.

(-;

Cuebacca
01-14-2008, 11:21 AM
But obviously, your question about whether she had beaten any champions was a thinly disguised slight...

A slight at whom, Allison? You just got through telling me not to "interpret" your posts. I suggest you follow your own advice because your interpretation of mine is way off.

av84fun
01-14-2008, 11:53 AM
A slight at whom, Allison? You just got through telling me not to "interpret" your posts. I suggest you follow your own advice because your interpretation of mine is way off.

Ah, the classic deflection

You are GOOD!

(-:

Cuebacca
01-14-2008, 12:07 PM
A slight at whom, Allison? You just got through telling me not to "interpret" your posts. I suggest you follow your own advice because your interpretation of mine is way off.

Ah, the classic deflectionYou are GOOD!

(-:
Huh? :confused: I thought you didn't want me interpreting your posts. In light of that, please try to be a little more clear.

tom haney
01-14-2008, 12:17 PM
When Allison killed Charley Williams and Karen beat Dee Adkins hill-hill,
I yelled out, " Don't the women realize they can't play with the men?"
Got some laughs.

watchez
01-14-2008, 12:23 PM
If Allison & Charlie Williams had an arm wrestling match - who would win?

av84fun
01-14-2008, 12:29 PM
I still stand by what i said... Alli is an underdog to the top 100 men playing longer races.

By the way, i may not be too bad at handicapping, I picked the winner correctly of both of the Shane vs Hennessee sets, and several others during the DCC... I am better at predicting gambling than short tournament races, which could go either way... Anyone should understand why

You are certainly entitled to stand by what you said but the thread had to do with predictions re: the DCC and she beat both Williams and Hopkins who are in the top 100 in UPA money winnings and she beat them both decisively.

No problem though. I realize you qualified your remarks to longer races. I just think that if she won a race to 20 then some would say she couldn't win a race to 100 etc.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
01-14-2008, 12:30 PM
If Allison & Charlie Williams had an arm wrestling match - who would win?

Not sure but KELLY Fisher would be a 10-1 favorite!

(-:

av84fun
01-14-2008, 12:33 PM
Huh? :confused: I thought you didn't want me interpreting your posts. In light of that, please try to be a little more clear.

What...exactly...did you find unclear about "You are good"? But to save you a post, that was a compliment on your debating skills.

(-:

Cuebacca
01-14-2008, 12:59 PM
What...exactly...did you find unclear about "You are good"? But to save you a post, that was a compliment on your debating skills.

(-:Well, thanks, I guess. I'm not trying to win a debate though. Personally, I HATE debates: pick a side and present everything you can to give yourself the best chance to "win". If I liked doing that, I'd immediately apply to law school. I'm more interested at looking at all sides, even if the "side" I originally thought I was on turns out to have less merit than I thought.

My original post wasn't choosing sides at all. I merely didn't understand how it was big significance that Allison won her first three matches, since I'd never heard of any of her opponents. This wasn't a slight at Allison (nor even her opponents). She didn't have any choice in who she played.

I guess my post left too much room to read things into it and this is a very sensitive topic. I'll try to be more careful next time.

av84fun
01-14-2008, 04:21 PM
Well, thanks, I guess. I'm not trying to win a debate though. Personally, I HATE debates: pick a side and present everything you can to give yourself the best chance to "win". If I liked doing that, I'd immediately apply to law school. I'm more interested at looking at all sides, even if the "side" I originally thought I was on turns out to have less merit than I thought.

My original post wasn't choosing sides at all. I merely didn't understand how it was big significance that Allison won her first three matches, since I'd never heard of any of her opponents. This wasn't a slight at Allison (nor even her opponents). She didn't have any choice in who she played.

I guess my post left too much room to read things into it and this is a very sensitive topic. I'll try to be more careful next time.

Thanks for the clarification. But as you state above, you downplayed the significance of her first 3 wins which is fine.

I'm just curious though. Given her victory over an additional 4 players, including two decisive wins over top name touring pros, how has your assessment of her ability to compete against men changed...if at all?

Let me hasten to add that I don't think she can win consistently against the BEST men...either on tour or top road players.

Rather, it's a matter of degree i.e. how far down the list of male players do you think would be necessary in order for her to be able to win on any given day? (And by that I mean Cory can win or lose against Busta on any given day without proving one is better than the other. What I mean is a REAL chance to win where the record between the two players might be, say, 60/40 over a long series of matches.)

This is all just idle speculation but IMHO there are many men who BADLY underestimate her ability since, when she brings her A game...she just doesn't miss and it is HARD to beat players that don't miss!

Regards,

Jim

ribdoner
01-14-2008, 10:53 PM
9 ball
tight 41/2 x 9
ALTERNATE break
played TONIGHT
"locals"=======>ms, tn and ark
race to 7

IMO Allie wins at least 5.5 races out of 10 vs everyone with the exception of HENNEY who wins 6 to 7.

av84fun
01-15-2008, 01:04 AM
I wouldn't call Allen Hopkins or Charlie Williams TOP touring pros. JMO


Possibly you didn't read my post carefully enough. You referred to the top 100 players, not me.

Williams and Hopkins are #s 25 and 58 on the current UPA tour rankings.

If you want to lower your standards to the top 10, then you would get no argument from me...but you would be reducing your standards by a factor of 10.

But make no mistake. You would be wise to change your standards IMHO.

I can only assume that you haven't seen her play that often. One of the reasons that she has won more WPBA events than all other players COMBINED (including karen) is that she doesn't miss much.

She has OFTEN gone through entire tournaments without missing more than 3-4 shots....so possibly you can explain how to beat someone who doesn't miss...without stringing 5-6 racks together in the silly winner breaks format.

(-:

Bobby Pickle, Hennessee, Hickerson, Little John, Vita, Greg Jones, Bobby Earls, Greg Dickens, Luke Gains, Reed Pierce, etc...

Well, she beat Bobby in my house and trust me, he wanted to win.

What you don't seem to understand is that she and to a lesser extent Karen (based on their records) play at an entirely different level than the rest of the women...but having said that, it is clear that the compeition is getting better and better every year so the gap is clearly closing...but there IS a gap.

Also, IMHO..absent pure luck, you are significantly over-estimating the advantage to the breaker in 9 Ball. I would be very interested in any statistics you might have that proves the breaker wins considerably more often than the non-breaker.

Putting on several break and run "packs" by getting a ball down AND having a makeble shot
requires a SIGNIFICANT amount of raw luck.

Regards,
Jim

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
01-15-2008, 12:20 PM
Nope, you didn't read your post carefully!!!!!!!!!

I was referring to your post that said the Allison beat 2 Top Touring Pros... Go back and LOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't find any such post. Can you direct me to it? The only similar post I could find (although I didn't spend much time looking and could have missed it) was one in which I referred to two TOP NAME touring pros.

There,of course, is a difference in the discerning mind.

But putting hair-splitting aside, you are on record as suggesting that she would not match up well with the top 100 male pros...and as I have pointed out, Hopkins and Williams are CURRENTLY in the UPA top 100.

And as far as where Hopkins and Williams make their money, what does that have to do with anything.

One of many possible reasons for touring pros being in the lower ranges of the top 100 is that they HAVE to have other occupations since they obviously can't make a living playing pool.

But again, YOU chose the top 100, not me so you have to live with whatever the reasons might be for being low on that list.

Regards,
Jim

beetle
01-15-2008, 01:07 PM
bla bla bla

Give it up BPG24, you've lost the bet and the argument.

beetle
01-15-2008, 01:09 PM
You must not be able to read

Yet somehow I was able to get my Ph. D.

Boro Nut
01-15-2008, 01:19 PM
Yet somehow I was able to get my Ph. D.Well that's quite an achievement, because that's not how you spell iPod.

Well done Allison (and all the girls) by-the-way. She outperformed the vast majority of the men in the competition. You can't argue against that fact.

Boro Nut

av84fun
01-15-2008, 04:35 PM
What are you talking about??????????

I quoted your post. I even made it bold for you. Look up

Charlie Williams does not play pool for a living, neither does Allen Hopkins. Surely you can understand how that would effect their performance. Besides racing to 7 doesn't prove anything, you know that

And yes for the 3rd time, I do not believe Allison is favored in long sets versus any of the worlds top 100 men. I would imagine there are at lest 15-20 Filipinos alone that would be favored over her.

Here...let me help you by putting your quote of my comments in larger letters to aid your comprehension skills.

I'm just curious though. Given her victory over an additional 4 players, including two decisive wins over top name touring pros, how has your assessment of her ability to compete against men changed...if at all?

Now, re-read my last post and hopefully you will understand.

And races to 7 mean nothing huh?? Well, you would probably be the first to say "I told you so" if she had lost 7-1.

LOL

Cuebacca
01-15-2008, 05:32 PM
Here...let me help you by putting your quote of my comments in larger letters to aid your comprehension skills.

I'm just curious though. Given her victory over an additional 4 players, including two decisive wins over top name touring pros, how has your assessment of her ability to compete against men changed...if at all?

Now, re-read my last post and hopefully you will understand.

And races to 7 mean nothing huh?? Well, you would probably be the first to say "I told you so" if she had lost 7-1.

LOL

BGP's reading comprehension skills seem to be doing pretty well here. If you felt that Allison's victories were proof that her game has been underrated by a lot of guys in this thread, then the terms, "top name touring pro" and "top touring pro" are equivalent in the context of the argument that you're trying to make.

av84fun
01-15-2008, 07:11 PM
Yes you have...

Player Hating Degree

Well, that's better than yours...Phrigging Dumb!

(-:

beetle
01-15-2008, 09:27 PM
LOL

Graduated with honors. :D

Congratulations! You'll have your pick of high schools now. Good luck and study hard. ;)

av84fun
01-15-2008, 11:05 PM
BGP's reading comprehension skills seem to be doing pretty well here. If you felt that Allison's victories were proof that her game has been underrated by a lot of guys in this thread, then the terms, "top name touring pro" and "top touring pro" are equivalent in the context of the argument that you're trying to make.

Well, thanks for offering your services as moderator...yet again...but let me point out why both you and BPG24 seem to be discernment challenged...even when I provided a clue in LARGE...RED letters.

Grady Mathews, for example, would be a TOP NAME TOURING PRO whereas Mika, for example, would be a Top Touring Pro.

You see, the distinction is that a pro may have a TOP NAME...still be touring in various events...but be long past his prime. So....stay with me now..."Top Touring Pro" suggests current substantial success on tour, while Top Name Touring Pro could also mean a famous pro but one who is no longer enjoying substantial success on tour.

Get it now???? (-:

Please let me know if you need any other guidance on why those two phrases are NOT "equivalent."

Regards,

Jim

Jaden
01-15-2008, 11:13 PM
Well, thanks for offering your services as moderator...yet again...but let me point out why both you and BPG24 seem to be discernment challenged...even when I provided a clue in LARGE...RED letters.

Grady Mathews, for example, would be a TOP NAME TOURING PRO whereas Mika, for example, would be a Top Touring Pro.

You see, the distinction is that a pro may have a TOP NAME...still be touring in various events...but be long past his prime. So....stay with me now..."Top Touring Pro" suggests current substantial success on tour, while Top Name Touring Pro could also mean a famous pro but one who is no longer enjoying substantial success on tour.

Get it now???? (-:

Please let me know if you need any other guidance on why those two phrases are NOT "equivalent."

Regards,

Jim


Ok so wouldn't that mean that your argument lacks substance then??? If you're stating that a top name touring pro is a has been, loose translation, and a top touring pro is a currently successful player, then waht you are saying is that Allison fisher had a couple of decisive victories over has beens????

So have I..... That doesn't mean I can go out and compete on the men's tour successfully....

Cuebacca
01-15-2008, 11:14 PM
you and BPG24 seem to be discernment challenged...even when I provided a clue in LARGE...RED letters.

Well, you don't seem to pay attention to sentences containing underlined clues, so I guess we're even. ;)

Have a good one,

Cuebacca

av84fun
01-15-2008, 11:15 PM
I never made a prediction on short tournament races... Anything can happen, I know from experience. I have beaten guys that were out of my league to 7. I have also lost to guys I should drill in a race to 7. 9 ball is a funny game, and short races do not favor the best player

Actually, that is one of the great myths of pool matches. But I understand why it is so wide held due to the intuitive nature of the statement.

But if that were true, then Allison could not have won more WPBA tournaments than all other competitors....combined.

On the WPBA...at least in the last several years, the preliminary matches are races to 9 (hardly long races) and the semis and finals are races to 7.

Sure, the lesser player can win a GIVEN race to 7 or 9 but that same player COULD win a race to 20 as well.

But over time, the best player will win a series of races to 3 or 2 or even 1.

Would you care to play a race to 1 against Django for twenty grand? Not me pardner.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
01-15-2008, 11:34 PM
Ok so wouldn't that mean that your argument lacks substance then??? If you're stating that a top name touring pro is a has been, loose translation, and a top touring pro is a currently successful player, then waht you are saying is that Allison fisher had a couple of decisive victories over has beens????

So have I..... That doesn't mean I can go out and compete on the men's tour successfully....

No JADEN. Not at all. BGP24 introduced the issue of the "top 100" male pros aganst whom he felt Allison wouldn't be competitive.

I offered in evidence that she had just decisively beaten two players on the UPA top 100 money winner list...Williams and Hopkins...and he countered that they were not devoting their full time to playing on tour.

But I don't know what prompted your statement about competing on the men's tour successfully. I never suggested that she could...or would. Are you referring to someone else?

Nor did I suggest that her fantastic showing at the DCC "PROVED" anything as Cuebacca inferred.

My point is that her victories were not at all helpful to the argument that she can be routinely beaten by the lower tier of the male pro players.

What I WILL state...for the record and without equivocation of any kind is that those who feel she is not competitive against that lower tier...say the bottom quarter of the top 100 have either not watched her play very much or have male ego issues...or simply don't understand that when players don't miss (much) they are quite difficult to beat.

Regards,
Jim

Jaden
01-15-2008, 11:38 PM
No JADEN. Not at all. BGP24 introduced the issue of the "top 100" male pros aganst whom he felt Allison wouldn't be competitive.

I offered in evidence that she had just decisively beaten two players on the UPA top 100 money winner list...Williams and Hopkins...and he countered that they were not devoting their full time to playing on tour.

But I don't know what prompted your statement about competing on the men's tour successfully. I never suggested that she could...or would. Are you referring to someone else?

Nor did I suggest that her fantastic showing at the DCC "PROVED" anything as Cuebacca inferred.

My point is that her victories were not at all helpful to the argument that she can be routinely beaten by the lower tier of the male pro players.

What I WILL state...for the record and without equivocation of any kind is that those who feel she is not competitive against that lower tier...say the bottom quarter of the top 100 have either not watched her play very much or have male ego issues...or simply don't understand that when players don't miss (much) they are quite difficult to beat.

Regards,
Jim


I will agree that with the current state of tournament play that Allison can remain competitive with the lower tier of the top 100 male players....That would be about as far as I would be willing to go though....

av84fun
01-15-2008, 11:41 PM
Well, you don't seem to pay attention to sentences containing underlined clues, so I guess we're even. ;)

Have a good one,

Cuebacca

Well, you guessed wrong then. I DID pay attention and gave proper credit to your underlined statement which I quote below for your convenience.

"then the terms, "top name touring pro" and "top touring pro" are equivalent in the context of the argument that you're trying to make."

The problem is that not much credit can be given to your underlined statement because as I pointed out in a prior post, the two phrases ARE distinctive and are NOT equivalent and there is nothing in the context of my argument that can make that not true.

In any event, this topic has outlived its usefulness and there is nothing more that I can add so I will let my existing views speak for themselves without further belaboring them except to say that JADEN and I agree with respect to his post #128.

Regards,
Jim

ribdoner
01-15-2008, 11:59 PM
The only tour in these parts is GRACELAND.....don't park on the side streets though:eek:


The topic of "tour" makes me wonder where Allie would rank playing the current top 100 players in the WORLD.

With the majority (IMO) of world class players living across ponds determining the top 100 and trying to rank her would be fun.:)

I might undertake the challenge if I still supplemented my energy level...

av84fun
01-16-2008, 12:24 AM
By the way, is there a current mens tour in the US?

I am not talking about regional tours

Just bumping this, because I got no answer. How can Hopkins and Williams be rated if they don't play on a tour?

Allen is a commentator and runs his huge expo. Charlie is running Dragon Promotions full time last i heard.

ONE MORE POST from me.

They DO play on a tour as I noted elsewhere in this thread including citing their respective UPA tour rankings.



And...ummm...they both "toured" to get to Louisville and they both "tour" all over the world to play in numerous events. In fact, several such events are promoted by Dragon Promotions which was founded by Charlie Williams!

And a tour being solely in the U.S. doesn't have anything to do with the discussion in this thread.

Check it out.


http://upatour.com


www.dragonpromotions.com

That's ALL for me in this thread.

Regards,
Jim

FLICKit
01-16-2008, 01:26 AM
Maybe you have trouble understanding what my previous statement means, so I will explain...

In 9 ball, the player that keeps control of the table wins. You do not have to be the better player to keep control of the table, nor do you have to be the better player to make the 9 ball 7 times before your opponent... Luck also plays a role


Just to jump back into this a bit...

You left yourself wide open on this one... which can be countered from 2 very different perspectives.

1. If short races are so much luck factors. Then why do the top players arise so often to the top? And most importantly, why has Allison been able to dominate so handily, considering that as you say it's just luck and the dominant player gets beat alot.

2. She dominated those players in the short races as you mentioned. You seem to be under the impression that if the race were longer, then all of a sudden those top 100 players that she beat would've been able to catch fire, and not only rise to the level of Allison's play. But you also leave the impression that you're saying that those guys she beat, would've been able to dominate her to a degree much higher than she dominated those guys. And thus, they would reverse the 7-1 beat down that they received.

The evidence doesn't support your intimations. If those top 100 males were so much more dominant than Allison, then the odds would've been against her winning, and very likely the odds would've been against her being able to compete even close against that top 100 tier. But, of the top 100 male players she did beat: she dominated some big names (7-1).

Even most critics believe that Allison and a few other top women players may not be able to beat all the top men (let's say top 50%), but they would definitely be able to compete. Even, as suggested a 100-60 loss would be quite competitive when it comes to playing that top 10 level player.

So, if you talk about the top 50-100 players (thus excluding the upper 50), well if she was already dominating players on that level 7-1, then continuing to a race to 14 or 18 could easily produce a result of 14-2 or 18-3 or even 14-8 (7 more for Allison and 7 more for the male) in favor of Allison.
In order for those men to win that race to 14 after the 7-1 start, they would have to win 13 more games while holding Allison down to 6 more at most. That might be doable for the top 1-50 players, but that would be a very difficult task for the other 50-100 ranked male players.


But really... overall... if those players got beat 7-6 or 7-5 or even 7-4, then there might be more validity to your argument of the luck factor and short race. But when the final score is 7-1, that one-sidedness suggests otherwise. And at Allison's level, do you really believe that she's cheesing the 9 (translation for those who need it: slapping at it with crazy combinations knowing that she has low percentage chance of making it) and slopping in lotsa balls or ONLY WINNING VIA LUCK???

(note: stay on topic - top 100 male players she beat, when it was pre-judged that she wouldn't be able to compete against those top 100 players)

I understand that it would be very easy for you to backtrack and change the meaning of your post, so as to downplay the rest of the women field. Because without some level of backtracking you won't be able to justify Allison's dominance against, even in short races.

I know how much you like to argue, but you are wrong this time
I'll say the same to you, "I know how much you like to argue, but you are wrong this time ".

FLICKit
01-16-2008, 01:19 PM
Charlie and Allen are busy doing other things, that is my point, for some reason you have trouble accepting that.

There is NO MENS TOUR in the US that includes all or even most of the worlds top male players... Hopefully that isn't too hard for you to understand. It is ridiculous how often I have to repeat myself to get people to comprehend
Nice try on the backtrack, as already had been mentioned...

Downgrade the argument....

Just move on....

wincardona
01-18-2008, 07:26 AM
I would like to play Allison a challenge match..

FLICKit
01-18-2008, 03:40 PM
Maybe you have trouble understanding what my previous statement means, so I will explain...

In 9 ball, the player that keeps control of the table wins. You do not have to be the better player to keep control of the table, nor do you have to be the better player to make the 9 ball 7 times before your opponent... Luck also plays a role

I know how much you like to argue, but you are wrong this time
OK, since you're being so juvenile....

What's so hard for you to understand?

You are saying that luck plays a role...
1. You can stand by what you say... Which means you'd be implying that the only reason that Allison could be successful against those men, is due to luck. Which has already been adeptly countered.
Or 2. You can make the very weak statement, that luck is a factor in everything. Well of course, but that would be so weak, that's it's hardly worth mentioning.

And it would be a very weak stance, because you wouldn't back up your statement and show where luck had a direct impact in Allison's match. Instead you'd be throwing out this nebulous claim...

Either way, your rudeness and lack of understanding precedes you...

And as already stated, "I know how much you like to argue, but you are wrong this time".

av84fun
01-18-2008, 04:29 PM
Did you read my response to you?

Did you admit that you were wrong yet?



I won't view this thread anymore, it's pointless to argue with someone that has no clue what the argument is even about.

The last bastion of the defeated.....Declare victory and retire from the field.

ROFLMAO.

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