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steev
01-10-2008, 10:29 PM
I've worked on this shot on occasion over the years. The bank's a double kiss. Don't post telling me it isn't, it's not important. On a bar table, I popped this and jumped the OB off the rail _over_ the CB to avoid the double kiss. Anyone else try this on a regular basis? It's not too bad if you come across it set up right.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2CWVO2PMJq2WWVO2WbNK1WdQF2kMJq2kUBT3kUpI3kUpL@

-s

gedukas
01-10-2008, 11:09 PM
I would shoot with top left and shoot as hard as possible. Might get the same jumping effect from a wild stroke though...

kingwang
01-10-2008, 11:34 PM
I and quite a few of my friends hit this ball with a lot of top to force it to jump over the CB like you said. The crappy tables we have at college have slow rails, so the ball catches on the rails and jump easily.

If the cue ball is a bit farther from the rail and you force A LOT of top on it, you can jump the OB off the bank which can come handy in very rare situations. Plus it looks amazing if you pull it off.

steev
01-10-2008, 11:49 PM
not to knock anyone's technique, but i simply jump the cb SLIGHTLY into the OB. this, at speed, gets the job done. top, bottom, whatever.

-s

klockdoc
01-10-2008, 11:56 PM
Shoot this shot all the time for practice and bets with low inside. Don't know why you have to jump the cue over the ball?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2CXLk1PALU2WXLk2WbFd1WfEC1kALU2kVHr2kOew@

Drew
01-11-2008, 01:34 AM
Jumping the ob is nothing new.

av84fun
01-11-2008, 01:51 AM
Shoot this shot all the time for practice and bets with low inside. Don't know why you have to jump the cue over the ball?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2CXLk1PALU2WXLk2WbFd1WfEC1kALU2kVHr2kOew@

Right. I can't imagine why he thinks it's a double kiss. Inside low nails it.

Maybe the diagram is not exactly how he actually sets it up. The small scale could be deceiving.

Regards,
Jim

softshot
01-11-2008, 02:25 AM
I don't see how a circus shot helps you here. as others have pointed out the shot to the side is makable as its drawn up... but if the double kiss is certain you can still bank to the bottom left corner(on the diagram) the fact that you only show the OB and the CB clouds the situation a bit. I have to assume that the corner shot is blocked as well as the cut to the top left corner... otherwise you would have taken one of those shots... right???

you said it was the only shot... but it could be it was the only shot you saw... which is a very different thing.. are we talking trick shots to impress your friends or possibly intimidate your opponent early in a match... or are you actually pinning your hopes of winning on this?

Drew
01-11-2008, 02:30 AM
I don't see how a circus shot helps you here. as others have pointed out the shot to the side is makable as its drawn up... but if the double kiss is certain you can still bank to the bottom left corner(on the diagram) the fact that you only show the OB and the CB clouds the situation a bit. I have to assume that the corner shot is blocked as well as the cut to the top left corner... otherwise you would have taken one of those shots... right???

you said it was the only shot... but it could be it was the only shot you saw... which is a very different thing.. are we talking trick shots to impress your friends or possibly intimidate your opponent early in a match... or are you actually pinning your hopes of winning on this?

Jumping the object ball on a bank is actually a very reliable way of avoiding the kiss. There's no kiss in the diagrammed shot but that's not the point. I'd consider the jump-bank a very important bar table shot. And yes, I would pin my hopes of winning on this shot. If you think it's a low percentage shot, I'd be happy to bet on it.

Edit: I shot this earlier tonight to get out. Is it impressive? Maybe. Is it difficult? Not as much as you'd think.

Hail Mary Shot
01-11-2008, 03:21 AM
I've worked on this shot on occasion over the years. The bank's a double kiss. Don't post telling me it isn't, it's not important. On a bar table, I popped this and jumped the OB off the rail _over_ the CB to avoid the double kiss. Anyone else try this on a regular basis? It's not too bad if you come across it set up right.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2CWVO2PMJq2WWVO2WbNK1WdQF2kMJq2kUBT3kUpI3kUpL@

-s


I have seen this kind of a shot (OB jumping off a rail) several times in person and in some pool videos. though I haven't tried it yet, not even while practicing. I would however bank it over far down left corner pocket or just bank it in your proposed bottom side pocket by hitting the OB full ball using low inside english. this would move the CB away from the OB and would make the OB spin-off the rail to the intended bank line without having to worry about the kiss.

softshot
01-11-2008, 03:38 AM
Jumping the object ball on a bank is actually a very reliable way of avoiding the kiss. There's no kiss in the diagrammed shot but that's not the point. I'd consider the jump-bank a very important bar table shot. And yes, I would pin my hopes of winning on this shot. If you think it's a low percentage shot, I'd be happy to bet on it.

Edit: I shot this earlier tonight to get out. Is it impressive? Maybe. Is it difficult? Not as much as you'd think.


Adding difficulty, expecting reliable table conditions ( ESPECIALLY ON A BAR BOX) all while attempting a circus shot... is simply foolhardy.. you take the shot you know you can make when its all on the line.... hope is for bad pool players in bad positions... skill is is never getting yourself into those positions in the first place and finding the smartest way out when your forced into them.

anytime a ball goes into the air its spin and roll when it lands is uncertain. you cannot count on it even with a perfect stroke.. there are too many variables at work.

That 3 ball can land in every pocket on the table as its drawn up all without leaving the felt.

The smart shot wins more games than the luck shot every time...

Drew
01-11-2008, 03:49 AM
Adding difficulty, expecting reliable table conditions ( ESPECIALLY ON A BAR BOX) all while attempting a circus shot... is simply foolhardy.. you take the shot you know you can make when its all on the line.... hope is for bad pool players in bad positions... skill is is never getting yourself into those positions in the first place and finding the smartest way out when your forced into them.

anytime a ball goes into the air its spin and roll when it lands is uncertain. you cannot count on it even with a perfect stroke.. there are too many variables at work.

That 3 ball can land in every pocket on the table as its drawn up all without leaving the felt.

The smart shot wins more games than the luck shot every time...

I'm sorry, I should have clarified. It is a very reliable shot assuming I know the table well. Trust me, whatever spin the object ball has when it comes back down is negligible. I've made this shot many times and is just as reliable as any other bank shot. Try it out sometime. It's hit very low at a hundred miles per hour. The object ball cannot be closer than a ball's width from the rail.

softshot
01-11-2008, 04:02 AM
I'm sorry, I should have clarified. It is a very reliable shot assuming I know the table well. Trust me, whatever spin the object ball has when it comes back down is negligible. I've made this shot many times and is just as reliable as any other bank shot. Try it out sometime. It's hit very low at a hundred miles per hour. The object ball cannot be closer than a ball's width from the rail.

I'm sorry man, but the harder you hit a ball the less control you have.. hitting at 100 mph will make the shot more difficult. obviously to get it to pop up you have to hit hard. but I am already on record as saying thats a bad Idea.

the spin when it comes down is everything.. your hitting a zillion MPH into a rail on a bar box. and claiming you can control the roll when it comes down... I don't buy it.. if anyone had that kind of precision control at break speed they would have a case full of world titles.

and Efren would be their butler.

Drew
01-11-2008, 04:14 AM
I'm sorry man, but the harder you hit a ball the less control you have.. hitting at 100 mph will make the shot more difficult. obviously to get it to pop up you have to hit hard. but I am already on record as saying thats a bad Idea.

the spin when it comes down is everything.. your hitting a zillion MPH into a rail on a bar box. and claiming you can control the roll when it comes down... I don't buy it.. if anyone had that kind of precision control at break speed they would have a case full of world titles.

and Efren would be their butler.

That's what I'm saying. On a bar table, it is only on the surface about 2 feet or so. You would have to put some extremely goofy spin on the ball for it to take while traveling so fast for only 2 feet. If I remember, I'll take a camera down to the pool hall tomorrow and shoot it a few times.

softshot
01-11-2008, 04:26 AM
That's what I'm saying. On a bar table, it is only on the surface about 2 feet or so. You would have to put some extremely goofy spin on the ball for it to take while traveling so fast for only 2 feet.


"IF" you nail it dead on... if not that 3 ball could literally end up anywhere. It is a gut check shot for sure but if you are off by the tiniest amount... you miss and miss badly possibly selling out. I can maybe try the thin cut and miss and still have a chance to win... if the OP could show the full table layout then we will have a basis to argue this further :D

Drew
01-11-2008, 04:32 AM
"IF" you nail it dead on... if not that 3 ball could literally end up anywhere. It is a gut check shot for sure but if you are off by the tiniest amount... you miss and miss badly possibly selling out. I can maybe try the thin cut and miss and still have a chance to win... if the OP could show the full table layout then we will have a basis to argue this further :D

You're stripes...what do you do? I only see 2 options. Either bank into the side, or kick into the side.

Edit: Tough shot but you can try to put the CB between the 5 and the 7 too.

http://CueTable.com/B/?@1AYva1BYsd4CYOE2DJdi2EaOR4FNAn3GYIX3HWJi2JXLX2PJ pW@

softshot
01-11-2008, 04:46 AM
You're stripes...what do you do? I only see 2 options. Either bank into the side, or kick into the side.

Edit: Tough shot but you can try to put the CB between the 5 and the 7 too.

http://CueTable.com/B/?@1AYva1BYsd4CYOE2DJdi2EaOR4FNAn3GYIX3HWJi2JXLX2PJ pW@


I come across the face of the 10 with high outside english banking to the bottome side. I shoot soft and land with a dead shot on the 8 if I make it I win.. if I miss you have a shot but have to run the table

Drew
01-11-2008, 04:50 AM
I come across the face of the 10 with high outside english banking to the bottome side. I shoot soft and land with a dead shot on the 8 if I make it I win.. if I miss you have a shot but have to run the table

Lol, on a bar table, I fire that 10 into the side. Any competent pool player can run out that table out.

Drew
01-11-2008, 04:54 AM
It's the same principle as this shot. I shoot into the rail jacked up with high left, jump over the 1 and make the 10.


http://CueTable.com/B/?@1AVTp1BXxg4CYOE1DXgG3HWJi2JYnb1PYmt@

softshot
01-11-2008, 04:57 AM
Lol, on a bar table, I fire that 10 into the side. Any competent pool player can run out that table out.

you fire it in ....I feather it in.... any competent player makes the shot and you don't get your chance to run out... I take the soft bank over the flying trapeze every time... out of 10 I'll win 8... or more.

softshot
01-11-2008, 04:59 AM
It's the same principle as this shot. I shoot into the rail jacked up with high left, jump over the 1 and make the 10.


http://CueTable.com/B/?@1AVTp1BXxg4CYOE1DXgG3HWJi2JYnb1PYmt@


I shoot down into the rail kick back for a soft hit and leave an easy 8. as it's laid out I have a HUGE margin for error. compared with jumping up and missing completely.

Drew
01-11-2008, 05:07 AM
I shoot down into the rail kick back for a soft hit and leave an easy 8.

LMAO...well obviously, you and I have different playing styles.

freddy the beard
01-11-2008, 06:33 AM
I've worked on this shot on occasion over the years. The bank's a double kiss. Don't post telling me it isn't, it's not important. On a bar table, I popped this and jumped the OB off the rail _over_ the CB to avoid the double kiss. Anyone else try this on a regular basis? It's not too bad if you come across it set up right.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2CWVO2PMJq2WWVO2WbNK1WdQF2kMJq2kUBT3kUpI3kUpL@

-s

This "jump over the kiss shot," is amptly covered and demonstrated in my new pool DVD, Bank Shots That Don't go -- But do.
the Beard

Patrick Johnson
01-11-2008, 07:18 AM
Drew:
It is a very reliable shot assuming I know the table well.

Are you talking about jumping the OB by jumping the CB? This is pretty tricky on a cut shot because the cut angle changes when hitting the OB from above, and by different amounts depending on how high the CB goes.

pj
chgo

Drew
01-11-2008, 08:06 AM
Are you talking about jumping the OB by jumping the CB? This is pretty tricky on a cut shot because the cut angle changes when hitting the OB from above, and by different amounts depending on how high the CB goes.

pj
chgo

No that's a different shot. I'm talking about shooting hard with a good amount of draw but kind of like a punch stroke. The object ball will jump considerably coming off the rail. It's useful in those shots where you can't get the CB out of the way and shots where there's another ball blocking the path.

steev
01-11-2008, 08:13 AM
ok, so after sleeping all night and reading everyone's reponses, here, my last comment on it:

i specifically pointed out in my first post that alternative shots were of no importance to this discussion. your beliefs as to the makeability are not the issue. we are talking about a bar table here, and yes, there was other traffic on the table.

i have found this shot to be enjoyable for myself, and yes, i frequently play for fun (OMG!). the fact that freddy got on the thread made me feel better after reading a page full of people pissing on my thread.

also, thanks to drew for defending my shot while i slept :D

-s

Hail Mary Shot
01-11-2008, 09:38 AM
ok, so after sleeping all night and reading everyone's reponses, here, my last comment on it:

i specifically pointed out in my first post that alternative shots were of no importance to this discussion. your beliefs as to the makeability are not the issue. we are talking about a bar table here, and yes, there was other traffic on the table.

i have found this shot to be enjoyable for myself, and yes, i frequently play for fun (OMG!). the fact that freddy got on the thread made me feel better after reading a page full of people pissing on my thread.

also, thanks to drew for defending my shot while i slept :D

-s

Don't worry steev, I didn't piss on your shot. LMAO ! :D :D :D

though I just pointed out the type of shots that I would do in that scenario. I have seen your shot performed by others, just never really tried it myself and might never will, even in practice. I don't like the idea of balls flying around. they just catch too much attention from other players. :D

Jude Rosenstock
01-11-2008, 09:42 AM
or just bank it in your proposed bottom side pocket by hitting the OB full ball using low inside english. this would move the CB away from the OB and would make the OB spin-off the rail to the intended bank line without having to worry about the kiss.


This is, by far, the correct way to go about making this shot. It's surprisingly easy. The key is to hit it with a medium stroke, definitely not hard.

Patrick Johnson
01-11-2008, 10:58 AM
I shoot into the rail jacked up with high left

Why put left spin on it rather than just a little angle on the shot? (Not challenging you, Drew, just curious...)

pj
chgo

Drew
01-11-2008, 11:09 AM
Why put left spin on it rather than just a little angle on the shot? (Not challenging you, Drew, just curious...)

pj
chgo

On those, I'd always rather use english over angle. The angle changes when you jack up so I find that spinning the cb is a little more predictable. It's not an easy shot either way.

kingwang
01-11-2008, 10:05 PM
This is, by far, the correct way to go about making this shot. It's surprisingly easy. The key is to hit it with a medium stroke, definitely not hard.

I have rarely gotten this to work, simply because the cue ball does not get out of the way in time. I think the problem is my visualization of the angle of the bank. If the angle is very acute (say...20 degrees), then no matter how much bottom inside you put on it, the balls will always kiss. I think in that situation a slight jump is more reliable.

Edit: Like this:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AYqB1PYJY2UYqB4UanF4UbtF1kYJY2kYiB2kVPA@

softshot
01-12-2008, 01:21 AM
ok, so after sleeping all night and reading everyone's reponses, here, my last comment on it:

i specifically pointed out in my first post that alternative shots were of no importance to this discussion. your beliefs as to the makeability are not the issue. we are talking about a bar table here, and yes, there was other traffic on the table.

i have found this shot to be enjoyable for myself, and yes, i frequently play for fun (OMG!). the fact that freddy got on the thread made me feel better after reading a page full of people pissing on my thread.

also, thanks to drew for defending my shot while i slept :D

-s


I wasn't pissing on your thread... you obviously posted it intending on sparking a discussion. you don't have a discussion if everyone agrees with you...

start a thread that says when hitting a break shot I prefer to hit the rack... no one will argue that point and the thread will die... there will not be 500+ views and 30+ responses.

I wasn't pissing on you or your skills I was pissing on your shot selection. if your forced into that position there are smarter shots to get out of it.. I am not the only one to say so... if you put yourself in that spot then you need to put more work on your position play... than you do into mastering circus shots.

SPINDOKTOR
01-12-2008, 05:39 AM
Jump? nah, just slide across the OB with side, and good speed.. HARD isnt nessasairly correct...the best thing to do is get out there and hit these shots, I advise shooting them easy at first, try any and all english, and learn the effects. I could tell you exactly how to play this shot, but I think its better for you to try this out yourself. I will say you do need to apply spin to the OB ball, so you overcut the shot slightly, the spin corrects the angle and the ball drops.


SPINDOKTOR

..

biblewriter
03-05-2008, 06:42 PM
Shoot this shot all the time for practice and bets with low inside. Don't know why you have to jump the cue over the ball?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2CXLk1PALU2WXLk2WbFd1WfEC1kALU2kVHr2kOew@

Freddy "the Beard" has instruction for banks with kisses on his DVD set Banks That Don't Go? But Do! http://www.8-ballbible.com/bankdvd.html

SPINDOKTOR
03-05-2008, 07:52 PM
you can cross cut this shot using english to correct the angle.. you cant hit this hard, as it will bank 2 times, so If you want one rail, use inside spin, and good speed..

Im having trouble with cuetable, I hit the copy URL button, then use control V to paste it, but all im getting is a blank cuetable?????????????

all well....


SPINDOKTOR

Patrick Johnson
03-05-2008, 08:21 PM
... this shot ... is just as reliable as any other bank shot.

So you're a lousy banker?

pj
chgo

steev
03-05-2008, 09:43 PM
as this got a little talk today, consider why i chose this slightly crazy option:

1. bar table - less space to get CB outta the way
2. dirty! - more throw, less rail grab (kinda +1/-1 here)
3. heavy cueball - harder to get out of the way

if i were lucky enough to play on 9' tables with simonis and red dot CB's all the time, i'd be spinning this in, one way or the other, all day.

and, for the record, i don't bank all that well...

it is awfully fun to make though.

-s

SPINDOKTOR
03-05-2008, 09:54 PM
This shot is tricky because if you hit head into the ball inside spin is left, in whitch your trying to "HOLD" the ball, the way Id shoot it, you shoot across the OB "CROSS CUT" and you use inside english whitch would be right hand spin... whitch with good speed will turn the object ball enough to bank it cross side... If you hit this to hard, it banks twice, into the oposite side pocket.. this will also happen with HOLD IT UP english hitting more straight on, hitting it hard...



SPINDOKTOR





as this got a little talk today, consider why i chose this slightly crazy option:

1. bar table - less space to get CB outta the way
2. dirty! - more throw, less rail grab (kinda +1/-1 here)
3. heavy cueball - harder to get out of the way

if i were lucky enough to play on 9' tables with simonis and red dot CB's all the time, i'd be spinning this in, one way or the other, all day.

and, for the record, i don't bank all that well...

it is awfully fun to make though.

-s

Patrick Johnson
03-06-2008, 10:28 AM
I have rarely gotten this to work, simply because the cue ball does not get out of the way in time. I think the problem is my visualization of the angle of the bank. If the angle is very acute (say...20 degrees), then no matter how much bottom inside you put on it, the balls will always kiss. I think in that situation a slight jump is more reliable.

Are you hitting it slow enough? This is very important to maximize the effect of the inside spin so you can hit it with enough angle to keep the CB out of the way.

pj
chgo

Bluesteel
03-06-2008, 11:01 AM
This "jump over the kiss shot," is amptly covered and demonstrated in my new pool DVD, Bank Shots That Don't go -- But do.
the Beard

I was reading the post, and thinking that if anyone had the Beard's dvds they would know exactly how to play this...1,2,or 3 rails. If you don't own the videos, you are missing out on some great info.

Mark

Williebetmore
03-06-2008, 11:05 AM
Anyone else try this on a regular basis? It's not too bad if you come across it set up right.

-s

Steev,
Too cool. On the crappy Valley tables that our league plays on, there are many banks that come way short just by hitting it very hard (don't even need the inside and slight cut mentioned above) - it is a great technique that does not even exist on the big tables.

I've wondered what to do if the cue ball is in "kiss position". I did not realize this shot existed; but with the dead rails and big corner pockets, I think this is something valuable to learn. I'll try it out the next time I'm on the 7 footers.

Do you think it might work on the big table as well; or is it something about the rails on the 7 footers that make it possible?

steev
03-06-2008, 11:44 AM
Do you think it might work on the big table as well; or is it something about the rails on the 7 footers that make it possible?

i've seen someone (actually he was goofing around at DCC) fire this on a 9' diamond. it's just that you have a lot more options on the big track, so it's much less likely to be necessary.

-s

Patrick Johnson
03-06-2008, 12:31 PM
gedukas:
I would shoot with top left and shoot as hard as possible.

You might have already seen others saying this, but...

If you're trying to shorten the bank angle as much as possible and avoid the kiss, it's better to shoot softly (so the sidespin has maximum effect on the rail) and with draw (so the cue ball stays out of the way of the rebounding object ball).

pj
chgo