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easy-e
01-29-2008, 10:53 AM
I saw that a thread was started on this subject last night, things got heated, and the thread was closed. So let's try to keep this one civil.

Would you let a friend of yours get into a bad game in order to not "knock" the other guy's action? I had this debate with Josh Hillard. He said that knocking someone's action is something that you "just don't do", and that I would understand that if I was in the "circle" of people that know about gambling. So what do you think? Let your buddy get hustled, or knock the other guy's action?

TannerPruess
01-29-2008, 11:00 AM
The only reason for knocking action is if the match isn't a fair game. Everyone should step up and get a fair game, not a lock.

crawfish
01-29-2008, 11:01 AM
If it's a buddy, I'm even buying a brass knocker. If it's an acquaintence or less, let'em learn the way I had to.

easy-e
01-29-2008, 11:01 AM
Is your "buddy" a newbie?
Meaning he can't make the decision himself?

If he is and doesn't understand how to matchup than i see no problem with it.

If he is a grown man, than i would stay out of other peoples business. It is the exact same a cock blocking.

JMO

IMo the age of a person is irrelevant. If you know he is getting hustled, would you let him? Obviously, if he is a seasoned gambler, he wouldn't need you to interject.

BVal
01-29-2008, 11:02 AM
I saw that a thread was started on this subject last night, things got heated, and the thread was closed. So let's try to keep this one civil.

Would you let a friend of yours get into a bad game in order to not "knock" the other guy's action? I had this debate with Josh Hillard. He said that knocking someone's action is something that you "just don't do", and that I would understand that if I was in the "circle" of people that know about gambling. So what do you think? Let your buddy get hustled, or knock the other guy's action?
It's not knocking the other guy's action as being a good friend. I would never let one of my friend's get hustled whether it is in the game of pool or the game of life. If it is two people I don't know then I stay out of it because it is none of my business.

BVal

easy-e
01-29-2008, 11:02 AM
It's not knocking the other guy's action as being a good friend. I would never let one of my friend's get hustled whether it is in the game of pool or the game of life. If it is two people I don't know then I stay out of it because it is none of my business.

BVal

Nicely said, I completely agree.

easy-e
01-29-2008, 11:08 AM
Is he inexperienced? Or is he capable of making his own decision?

That is the question.


If he is experienced, and has been around pool and gambling, then I believe everyone should stay out of it.

Maybe this is where we disagree. My friendship to someone is much more important to me than a hustler making a buck. I have no respect for a hustler lying to someone about their speed.
For the sake of my question though, let's just say that he is inexperienced.

SpiderWebComm
01-29-2008, 11:18 AM
It's not knocking the other guy's action as being a good friend. I would never let one of my friend's get hustled whether it is in the game of pool or the game of life. If it is two people I don't know then I stay out of it because it is none of my business.

BVal

..."WHAT HE SAID"

Neil
01-29-2008, 11:20 AM
..............

easy-e
01-29-2008, 11:20 AM
When did you mention lying? I somehow missed that part of your scenario.

If you are referring to Josh lying about his speed, he is not lying IMO. I have seen him play and he is no world beater. Good player, but no champion.
i read those threads and didn't see him lie once.

If the player is inexperienced and a friend, i would sing to him like a bird. No reason for him to give away free money. i would also pull him aside and try to explain to him why i am helping him. The lesson is just as important as you keeping him from losing.

Maybe I didn't make the lying part clear. I believe that not being honest about your speed and asking for a game that is unfair is lying. And I have seen Josh play also, plenty of times. He claimed to need the last four from people that I firmly believe he plays even with.
He and I disagreed about the action knocking when I told him that I would NEVER let any friend of mine get hustled or cheated. He claimed that it is still something you "just don't do".

supergreenman
01-29-2008, 11:23 AM
I wouldn't let anybody get conned on the street, why would I let it happen in a pool hall.

As it was said before, if it's a fair match there's no need for knocking. If someone is getting taken advatage of then shame on the hustler.

I find it funny that there's a lot of people here who look up to hustlers but are quite quick to condem Kevin Trudeau(and he should be condemed).

A con artist is a con artist, it doesn't matter if he carries a pool cue.

I also have no sympathy for people that just make stupid bets.

Jude Rosenstock
01-29-2008, 11:26 AM
Personally, I don't get involved in someone else's affairs unless asked. If a player walks into the room and asks a friend of mine to gamble, that is their business. If my friend asks me what I think of the game, I'll tell them. With that said, I never see people gamble for very much in my homeroom so when this situation arises, only a relatively small denomination is at stake.

It's somewhat similar to watching a game where a foul occurred. I would only say something if asked. In this instance, I would have to be asked by both players.

Cuebacca
01-29-2008, 11:29 AM
If he is a grown man, than i would stay out of other peoples business. It is the exact same a cock blocking.

JMO

This made me think of extension to the analogy. I hope no one takes offense to this, but maybe some would see knocking a hustler as being akin to cock blocking a date rapist? Don't get me wrong, the two cannot be equated, but perhaps the analogy could make sense to a degree. I don't know.

Aaron_S
01-29-2008, 11:30 AM
Someone who lets their buddies walk into traps with known hustlers will soon run out of buddies. Why anyone would feel that their obligation to not knock a hustler's action is stronger than their obligation to not let their friend walk into a trap is beyond me. Who needs enemies when you have friends like that? :confused:

JMHO,

Aaron

Cuebacca
01-29-2008, 11:36 AM
I see your point, that is not what I meant at all. I meant if he is experienced enough to make his own decision. I should have explained it better in the first post. Now I have had to explain it in 4 more. :D

Sorry to all for the confusion

LOL. Sorry, didn't mean to put ya on the spot, BPG. I'll go back to lurking on this topic now. :)

Jude Rosenstock
01-29-2008, 11:43 AM
Someone who lets their buddies walk into traps with known hustlers will soon run out of buddies. Why anyone would feel that their obligation to not knock a hustler's action is stronger than their obligation to not let their friend walk into a trap is beyond me. Who needs enemies when you have friends like that? :confused:

JMHO,

Aaron


On the flip side of it, what sort of person would need such heavy guidance? Years back, I was hanging in this room in Queens when Eugene Staliv walked in. He was in town for only a few hours because of a layover on his way to the US Open. He walked into the poolroom (Spin City) and asked if anyone wanted to play for $100 per set. In only minutes, I could see how amazing this guy was and yet, everybody lined up to play him. He made something like $700 before he had to go catch his flight. My point is, each person that stepped up to play him either knew he was really good or knew they didn't know anything. They're not forced to play and can easily just say no to the offer.

I mean, I'm certain there are situations that are more extreme than this that might change my opinion but my point is, you're responsible for your own actions not your friends.

JoeyA
01-29-2008, 11:46 AM
I saw that a thread was started on this subject last night, things got heated, and the thread was closed. So let's try to keep this one civil.

Would you let a friend of yours get into a bad game in order to not "knock" the other guy's action? I had this debate with Josh Hillard. He said that knocking someone's action is something that you "just don't do", and that I would understand that if I was in the "circle" of people that know about gambling. So what do you think? Let your buddy get hustled, or knock the other guy's action?

I wish you hadn't included Josh's name in this thread but it is already done and I will weigh in anyway. First off, I like Josh's moxy. He may be a little persistent but even that is OK. He needs to add those smiley faces when he is joking. :)

My own standards about knocking vary but essentially it is this:

Knocking someone's action (which is done on this forum with regularity by experienced players and novices alike) for no reason other than to "out" the other player's speed is wrong.

Knocking someone's action because a stranger (to him but not you) is trying to get in your friend's pocket with a game that is obviously lop-sided is COOL. If your friend didn't know who or what he was up against, you have an obligation as a friend to let them know they have a lop-sided game. You wouldn't be a friend if you didn't tell him. That being said, you should tell him this discreetly.

Wholesale knocking is wrong, especially if you like to see road players come through your town. Protect your friends if you see a road player trying to steal their cash but if he is getting down with an acquaintance or another stranger, keep quiet and enjoy the dance.

If you don't like gambling or road players, inform the whole pool hall and all adjoining counties. :D

I don't enjoy a heist and will even tell an acquaintance how a player plays if they ask and it is gong to be a heist.

If a road player is giving decent games/spots, I will be very reluctant to knock his action.

On this forum, just recently, Wayne, a well known player answered another poster's request for opinions about the level of play of myself and others. While he is a player, he didn't hesitate to provide Crawfish with his opinion about the level of my play and Josh. While he is wrong about the level of my play for sure, it doesn't help matchups to occur if people are constantly telling other people how everyone should play.

A local pool hall lost all of their players because the owners decided to make sure that EVERY game was a perfect matchup where no one would win, except THE HOUSE. That is a perfect plan for eliminating action from your pool room.

If I didn't have the hook set so deep in the GINGERBREAD MAN'S jaw, Wayne's post would have sent him scurrying even further away. :D :D

That's me, but it is up to each man to decide what is best for him.

JoeyA

Neil
01-29-2008, 12:18 PM
................

Jude Rosenstock
01-29-2008, 12:21 PM
I'm pretty much a private person. That being said, you posters that feel it's a good thing to knock action- do you also tell your friends where to get a mortgage, or insurance, or what kind of car to buy, or any other way that they should spend their money? If not, why do it in the poolroom.

If the guy is inexperienced, let him learn. He will remember it more. Odds are he isn't betting much if he's inexperienced. If he is, he's either very, very rich, or very stupid. If the latter, get him out of the pool halls. He won't learn.

Anytime two people match up, they both think they have the best of it and one is wrong, or one is trying to learn something. Or will learn something.

If he's a real good friend, and you know he has the worst of it by far, all you have to do is look him in the eye and ask him if he's sure. If the game has started, sit down and shut-up until he looks like he might play another set. Then ask him if he's sure. If that doesn't get him thinking, take him out back after it's over and smack him up the side of the head to wake him up.

But, whatever way you tell him, keep it private. Don't be a jerk and go announcing it to the whole room to try and make it look like you know something they don't. There's probably someone in the room that might play the guy that you would love to see lose. Don't kill that action too.


I'd say this shows perfect tact.

iba7467
01-29-2008, 12:30 PM
you posters that feel it's a good thing to knock action- do you also tell your friends where to get a mortgage, or insurance, or what kind of car to buy, or any other way that they should spend their money? If not, why do it in the poolroom.

If the guy is inexperienced, let him learn.

...

Don't be a jerk and go announcing it to the whole room to try and make it look like you know something they don't. There's probably someone in the room that might play the guy that you would love to see lose. Don't kill that action too.

This may be the best post I have ever seen on AZBilliards. Usually my friends ask me if I would like half of their action, they can usually tell whether they should play by my reaction.

In this light, has anyone here seen a friend make a huge mistake in a relationship, school, job, or life in general. It's all part of learning.

easy-e
01-29-2008, 12:33 PM
This may be the best post I have ever seen on AZBilliards. Usually my friends ask me if I would like half of their action, they can usually tell whether they should play by my reaction.

In this light, has anyone here seen a friend make a huge mistake in a relationship, school, job, or life in general. It's all part of learning.

Many may disagree, but I would help them avoid any huge mistake.....in life or in pool.

uwate
01-29-2008, 12:40 PM
friends give each other advice in the pool room. Close friends not only give advice but also look out to make sure their close friend is not screwing themselves, be it in the pool room or outside. Lets face it, real friends...people you talk to every day, have known for decades and you know have your back if you need them are not easy to find. Hell, I can count two in 41 years of my life. For those two, HELL YEAH im knocking a bad game if I see them involved in it. I may not yell out my info across the room but I will see to it they go into things with their eyes open and with all the available knowledge we have between us.

That said, most of the times I have ever said to my best friend.."Bad Game" he has said ehh fek it im doing it anyways. Hes a hammerhead when he gets to drinking and cant be convinced usually to change any course he has his mind set on.

storke
01-29-2008, 12:41 PM
I'm pretty much a private person. That being said, you posters that feel it's a good thing to knock action- do you also tell your friends where to get a mortgage, or insurance, or what kind of car to buy, or any other way that they should spend their money? If not, why do it in the poolroom.

If the guy is inexperienced, let him learn. He will remember it more. Odds are he isn't betting much if he's inexperienced. If he is, he's either very, very rich, or very stupid. If the latter, get him out of the pool halls. He won't learn.

Anytime two people match up, they both think they have the best of it and one is wrong, or one is trying to learn something. Or will learn something.

If he's a real good friend, and you know he has the worst of it by far, all you have to do is look him in the eye and ask him if he's sure. If the game has started, sit down and shut-up until he looks like he might play another set. Then ask him if he's sure. If that doesn't get him thinking, take him out back after it's over and smack him up the side of the head to wake him up.

But, whatever way you tell him, keep it private. Don't be a jerk and go announcing it to the whole room to try and make it look like you know something they don't. There's probably someone in the room that might play the guy that you would love to see lose. Don't kill that action too.
This is the right way to do it. The reason action is dead so to speak across the country is because of this subject. If you agree to play someone then it's none of my business. You cannot teach a person to gamble they have to experience it. I don't keep idiots as friends that bet what they can't afford.

Poolfiend
01-29-2008, 12:44 PM
There is no way I would let any of my friends get hustled. What kind of friend is that? I would also not let my friends buy a fake Rolex or let someone pick-pocket them. WTF.

easy-e
01-29-2008, 12:47 PM
There is no way I would let any of my friends get hustled. What kind of friend is that? I would also not let my friends buy a fake Rolex or let someone pick-pocket them. WTF.

But how would they learn?!?!?!:rolleyes:

Jude Rosenstock
01-29-2008, 01:08 PM
Okay, how about the opposite scenario?

I walked into Broadway Billiards one night with a friend of mine who is a solid A player. A regular at the room, someone I was familiar with, asked my friend for a game figuring I was tougher action (which is pretty accurate). They both ask me what the right game was and I said, "You two play about even." I honestly was only certain of my friend's speed and hadn't seen this Broadway regular in a couple years but back then, he played high B to low A speed.

The result was my friend played very well and this regular played a little under the speed I remember and my friend wins. The regular immediately yells at me that I set him up. What do you guys think? Now, I honestly thought it would be close but that's not the issue. Do I have an obligation to this person to match him up as evenly as possible with my friend? I know in this scenario, it's impossible since I hadn't seen the regular recently but evenso, do you think you are obligated to tell the truth?

Poolfiend
01-29-2008, 01:09 PM
But how would they learn?!?!?!:rolleyes:

Oh that's right, I forgot. Losing money to a better player that is hiding their speed while your friend sits silently watching the whole thing go down is a valuable lesson. If that happened to me I would certainly learn something from it.

I realize we all come from different backgrounds and have different perspectives. Some people grow up without a lot of friends watching out for them and have to learn things the hard way. Maybe that is where the other side of this argument stems from. However, I have one friend that grew up in a pool hall. He literally slept there most nights and I know he learned most of things he knows today the hard way. I also know that even though we are not the best of friends, he would not let me walk into a game where he knew I would get robbed.

Poolfiend
01-29-2008, 01:14 PM
Okay, how about the opposite scenario?

I walked into Broadway Billiards one night with a friend of mine who is a solid A player. A regular at the room, someone I was familiar with, asked my friend for a game figuring I was tougher action (which is pretty accurate). They both ask me what the right game was and I said, "You two play about even." I honestly was only certain of my friend's speed and hadn't seen this Broadway regular in a couple years but back then, he played high B to low A speed.

The result was my friend played very well and this regular played a little under the speed I remember and my friend wins. The regular immediately yells at me that I set him up. What do you guys think? Now, I honestly thought it would be close but that's not the issue. Do I have an obligation to this person to match him up as evenly as possible with my friend? I know in this scenario, it's impossible since I hadn't seen the regular recently but evenso, do you think you are obligated to tell the truth?

I guess that depends on your opinion of whether hustling is right or wrong. Lying certainly makes you part of the hustle.

Neil
01-29-2008, 01:16 PM
.....................

Jude Rosenstock
01-29-2008, 01:20 PM
I guess that depends on your opinion of whether hustling is right or wrong. Lying certainly makes you part of the hustle.


I mean, in my actual scenario, i didn't lie. If someone asks for my assistance for making a game, I try to be fair about it usually resorting to the normal handicaps given in our local tournaments. For example, I would say, "Okay, my buddy here is an A and you're a C. The right game is 4 on 9."

I'm just curious if people are trying to be fair or loyal. Both are honorable attributes but sometimes you have to be one or the other.

easy-e
01-29-2008, 01:22 PM
I mean, in my actual scenario, i didn't lie. If someone asks for my assistance for making a game, I try to be fair about it usually resorting to the normal handicaps given in our local tournaments. For example, I would say, "Okay, my buddy here is an A and you're a C. The right game is 4 on 9."

I'm just curious if people are trying to be fair or loyal. Both are honorable attributes but sometimes you have to be one or the other.

Fair. I could care less if my friend loses money gambling, so long as he got a fair game.

Jude Rosenstock
01-29-2008, 01:25 PM
Fair. I could care less if my friend loses money gambling, so long as he got a fair game.


Then in my opinion, if you're willing to honestly set your friend up in a fair game with a stranger, you should be allowed a degree of flexibility when he is the underdog in an unfair game.

Snap9
01-29-2008, 01:30 PM
This is a great subject that unfortunately will never have one correct answer. People classify friends in various ways. People also treat and protect friends in different ways too.

I have been playing pool for over 20yrs, and have seen many road and professional players. Now I own this information from both spectating and playing alot of these players. This information is mine to do with how I decide to use it. Do I knock a player or save a friend?


For starters, I personally only classify a few people as friends. These friends are people who watch my back, help me when needed, socialize with and know some or most of my life history. This is what i classify as a friend. I have tons of pool playing buddies and aquaintances. Are these buddies friends? Yes and no. Its a different level of friendship.

Now as for hustling of my friends or aquaintances I do not stand for or allow it to happen. Hustlers alway want the nutz before ever breaking the first rack. Gamblers want the game to be as close as a coin flip as possible. Will I interfere for a gambling match? NO Will I interfere for a hustling match? YES

My friendships are valuable commodities that will never be compromised by any person.

Fatboy
01-29-2008, 01:32 PM
i'm gonna knock some action: Dont play SVB heads-up. I heard he is hitting them pretty good right now, sorry Shane.

Poolfiend
01-29-2008, 01:34 PM
I mean, in my actual scenario, i didn't lie. If someone asks for my assistance for making a game, I try to be fair about it usually resorting to the normal handicaps given in our local tournaments. For example, I would say, "Okay, my buddy here is an A and you're a C. The right game is 4 on 9."

I'm just curious if people are trying to be fair or loyal. Both are honorable attributes but sometimes you have to be one or the other.

Oh Yeah, I understand that in your original scenario you measured both player's ability as closely as you could with the information you had. If you did intentionally lie about you friend's speed then that would make you part of a hustle - don't you think?

I think you can be both fair and loyal to your friend. I agree with Easy's post about being fair. Of course I don't discourage my friends from gambling and sometimes when you gamble you lose. I will just do my part to make sure they know everything I do about the other player.

Poolfiend
01-29-2008, 01:37 PM
This is a great subject that unfortunately will never have one correct answer. People classify friends in various ways. People also treat and protect friends in different ways too.

I have been playing pool for over 20yrs, and have seen many road and professional players. Now I own this information from both spectating and playing alot of these players. This information is mine to do with how I decide to use it. Do I knock a player or save a friend?


For starters, I personally only classify a few people as friends. These friends are people who watch my back, help me when needed, socialize with and know some or most of my life history. This is what i classify as a friend. I have tons of pool playing buddies and aquaintances. Are these buddies friends? Yes and no. Its a different level of friendship.

Now as for hustling of my friends or aquaintances I do not stand for or allow it to happen. Hustlers alway want the nutz before ever breaking the first rack. Gamblers want the game to be as close as a coin flip as possible. Will I interfere for a gambling match? NO Will I interfere for a hustling match? YES

My friendships are valuable commodities that will never be compromised by any person.


Well said. I agree 100%. Not that anyone asked.

SJDinPHX
01-29-2008, 01:44 PM
Then in my opinion, if you're willing to honestly set your friend up in a fair game with a stranger, you should be allowed a degree of flexibility when he is the underdog in an unfair game.
"Knocking" is a subjective term. It is an unwritten code among pool players,
(at least those in the know)that you keep your mouth shut. However most knocking is done by "railbirds" who have zero integrity. If I had to hazard a guess I would say railbirds have cost pool players at least a trillion dollars.
I have, at times, been guilty of knocking if I found a close friend in jeopardy of losing big bucks.

Jude Rosenstock
01-29-2008, 01:47 PM
Oh Yeah, I understand that in your original scenario you measured both player's ability as closely as you could with the information you had. If you did intentionally lie about you friend's speed then that would make you part of a hustle - don't you think?

I think you can be both fair and loyal to your friend. I agree with Easy's post about being fair. Of course I don't discourage my friends from gambling and sometimes when you gamble you lose. I will just do my part to make sure they know everything I do about the other player.


I guess, to a certain extent, the circumstances would also be important. I've been thinking about this a bit. Let's say, for the sake of argument, Mike Sigel decides to go on the road and let's say you walk in and see Sigel playing your friend.


SCENARIO 1:
Now, your friend is an A-level player who only loses what he can afford and he's matched up with Sigel at $50 a set (your friend's usual bet) only, your friend has no idea who he's playing. Do you tell him between sets or do you wait until he's done firing off his usual three bullets before quitting?

SCENARIO 2:
Your friend is playing Sigel $200 per set (four times more than his usual bet) AND he's giving Sigel the 7-ball. Do you involve yourself immediately? Wait until the set is over? Wait until your friend calls it quits?

Poolfiend
01-29-2008, 01:58 PM
I guess, to a certain extent, the circumstances would also be important. I've been thinking about this a bit. Let's say, for the sake of argument, Mike Sigel decides to go on the road and let's say you walk in and see Sigel playing your friend.


SCENARIO 1:
Now, your friend is an A-level player who only loses what he can afford and he's matched up with Sigel at $50 a set (your friend's usual bet) only, your friend has no idea who he's playing. Do you tell him between sets or do you wait until he's done firing off his usual three bullets before quitting?

SCENARIO 2:
Your friend is playing Sigel $200 per set (four times more than his usual bet) AND he's giving Sigel the 7-ball. Do you involve yourself immediately? Wait until the set is over? Wait until your friend calls it quits?

Both excellent questions. Scenario #2 is easy for me. I wait till the set is over and then call my friend over for a quick chat. At least that way he can go back to Mike and try to get a fair spot.

Scenario #1 made me think a little, but I would do the exact same thing. I'm pretty sure that if I didn't step in and my friend later found out he would say, Why the Fcuk didn't you tell me that was Mike Sigel.

Although my answers support my previous posts, your questions made it easier for me to envision scenario's where someone might sit back and not say anything. You would have to know your friend well enough to to know that maybe they wouldn't want you to say anything to them.

I apologize for my previous posts that had an exasperated tone directed towards those that didn't share my opinion.

longhair
01-29-2008, 02:01 PM
To me, there is an important distinction to be made between a match-up where one player has the best of it and a match-up where there is hustling going on.

In the first case, where the match looks uneven to me, I would say something if the players don't know each other and my friend looks likely to lose enough money to matter to him while finding out what's going on.

In the second case, where a player is laying down to fool the other guy and take his money, the bar is lower for me to speak up. Lying about your speed in order to make a bet you can't lose is stealing, and if I'm sure that is what is going on I feel obligated to interfere if I can. It is not necessary for the victim to be my friend.

I'm glad to see that almost no one here is advocating that it is never OK to speak up. We might have different standards for when to act, but we mostly agree that at least sometimes it is right to act.

That said, how much actual hustling is going on these days? I know that players try to hide their speed, but everyone I know who plays well enough to consider gambling (and many who don't) are very aware that stalling is likely, and are cautious with strangers because of it.

Jude,
I liked your story about Stalev, and I agree that anyone there had the same information that you had, and there was no reason to try to stop anyone from doing what they want. I wonder if you would feel the same way if a player that speed (that you knew) came into that room lying about who he was, lost $10 to a chump while playing badly, and then wanted action for $100 a game (or $1000, or whatever seems like a lot of money to you; $100 per game is lot of money to me). If it looked like you were the only one in the know, would you let someone be the hustler's fool?

Snap9
01-29-2008, 02:03 PM
I guess, to a certain extent, the circumstances would also be important. I've been thinking about this a bit. Let's say, for the sake of argument, Mike Sigel decides to go on the road and let's say you walk in and see Sigel playing your friend.


SCENARIO 1:
Now, your friend is an A-level player who only loses what he can afford and he's matched up with Sigel at $50 a set (your friend's usual bet) only, your friend has no idea who he's playing. Do you tell him between sets or do you wait until he's done firing off his usual three bullets before quitting?

SCENARIO 2:
Your friend is playing Sigel $200 per set (four times more than his usual bet) AND he's giving Sigel the 7-ball. Do you involve yourself immediately? Wait until the set is over? Wait until your friend calls it quits?


Is this a friend or an aquaintance?

If an aquaintance do you involve yourself in either scenario? NO


if a friend that you classify as a friend?] Scenario 1 is Gambling and no involvement necessary.Scenario 2 is hustling and the answer is YES

Jude Rosenstock
01-29-2008, 02:07 PM
Jude,
I liked your story about Stalev, and I agree that anyone there had the same information that you had, and there was no reason to try to stop anyone from doing what they want. I wonder if you would feel the same way if a player that speed (that you knew) came into that room lying about who he was, lost $10 to a chump while playing badly, and then wanted action for $100 a game (or $1000, or whatever seems like a lot of money to you; $100 per game is lot of money to me). If it looked like you were the only one in the know, would you let someone be the hustler's fool?


Yeah, I sat there and watched in awe. He must've been a teenager at the time and he ripped everyone a new one. There was no hustle and I saw no reason to volunteer my opinion. Basically, he was saying, "Step up to get your ass whooped". The way he buzzed through racks, it looked like he hadn't missed a ball in his life.

longhair
01-29-2008, 02:07 PM
I guess, to a certain extent, the circumstances would also be important. I've been thinking about this a bit. Let's say, for the sake of argument, Mike Sigel decides to go on the road and let's say you walk in and see Sigel playing your friend.


SCENARIO 1:
Now, your friend is an A-level player who only loses what he can afford and he's matched up with Sigel at $50 a set (your friend's usual bet) only, your friend has no idea who he's playing. Do you tell him between sets or do you wait until he's done firing off his usual three bullets before quitting?

SCENARIO 2:
Your friend is playing Sigel $200 per set (four times more than his usual bet) AND he's giving Sigel the 7-ball. Do you involve yourself immediately? Wait until the set is over? Wait until your friend calls it quits?
this came up while I was typing. Jude, you know how to cut an issue into the right peices. Here, I agree with Snap9. The first scenario doesn't require any action from me, although I might say something because Sigel is famous, rather than because he has the best of it. The second scenario is the kind of stealing that I was trying to talk about in my previous, long winded post.

Jude Rosenstock
01-29-2008, 02:09 PM
Is this a friend or an aquaintance?

If an aquaintance do you involve yourself in either scenario? NO


if a friend that you classify as a friend?] Scenario 1 is Gambling and no involvement necessary.Scenario 2 is hustling and the answer is YES


Okay but how would you go about involving yourself in Scenario 2?

longhair
01-29-2008, 02:11 PM
Okay but how would you go about involving yourself in Scenario 2?
How about asking Sigel for an autograph?:) ;)

Seriously, that should be done quietly, especially since you walked in on a game in progress and you don't know what was said to get this started.

trustyrusty
01-29-2008, 02:16 PM
I guess, to a certain extent, the circumstances would also be important. I've been thinking about this a bit. Let's say, for the sake of argument, Mike Sigel decides to go on the road and let's say you walk in and see Sigel playing your friend.


SCENARIO 1:
Now, your friend is an A-level player who only loses what he can afford and he's matched up with Sigel at $50 a set (your friend's usual bet) only, your friend has no idea who he's playing. Do you tell him between sets or do you wait until he's done firing off his usual three bullets before quitting?

SCENARIO 2:
Your friend is playing Sigel $200 per set (four times more than his usual bet) AND he's giving Sigel the 7-ball. Do you involve yourself immediately? Wait until the set is over? Wait until your friend calls it quits?

I'd probably let both go - unless he's running to the ATM to get more cash (cuz, he KNOWS he can beat this guy). Scenario #2 is GREAT - that story would just be too fun to tell when other buddies are around, so I couldn't stop that one. Now, this is all assuming that my buddy knows when to say uncle. If the hustler (in this case Sigel) is doing his job, and stringing him along, and my buddy can't see the big picture...I dunno. I might hafta say something when he gets to a point that would be very bad for him financially...

Good thread - to all

Aaron_S
01-29-2008, 02:40 PM
On the flip side of it, what sort of person would need such heavy guidance? Years back, I was hanging in this room in Queens when Eugene Staliv walked in. He was in town for only a few hours because of a layover on his way to the US Open. He walked into the poolroom (Spin City) and asked if anyone wanted to play for $100 per set. In only minutes, I could see how amazing this guy was and yet, everybody lined up to play him. He made something like $700 before he had to go catch his flight. My point is, each person that stepped up to play him either knew he was really good or knew they didn't know anything. They're not forced to play and can easily just say no to the offer.

I mean, I'm certain there are situations that are more extreme than this that might change my opinion but my point is, you're responsible for your own actions not your friends.


I agree that everyone is ultimately responsible for their own actions, but I thought the initial question was about an inexperienced player who is being targeted by a hustler. If not, then I must have misread the initial post, but if the situation is as I described it, then I really don't see any similarities between that scenario and the one you described. Stalev wasn't hiding his speed, right? So the people who were playing him at least had some idea of what they were getting into. The situation I'm thinking of is more akin to not stopping your friend from walking in front of a bus that he neither sees nor hears. Sure, your friend might learn a lesson from the experience, but it's a lesson that they could have just as easily learned from afar.... and with a bit less pain.

As always, JMHO,

Aaron

yobagua
01-29-2008, 02:43 PM
Most of the people that I have a close relationship with, and in a pool hall you can count them on one hand, can usually judge a players speed after a couple of games. Like Kid Delicious came into our room and no one knew him but me and another pool detective. I let my friend play him for a couple of games at $25 a game after 2 games my buddy pulled up and said hey man I cant beat you. Im not even in your league. They had a laugh. My buddy has a good story to tell his kids and learned a good lesson. For $50 bucks I was not going to get involved in it. Now if someone of Kids speed humped it up to something serious like 1K a set I would step in to my very good friend and say you got to know all the facts here. Unless my friend has oodles of $$$$ then he is on his own. He didnt get all that cash for being a dummy unless he inherited it and then he is a dummy if he wants to blow it. But you know if someone wants to play for that kind of cash my friend better send out some of his own detectives and get the line on this guy cause this guy is serious. Horse people do that. They got a sheet for that.
What irks me most is these railbirds who will set a guy up with a bad game. Saying oh this guy cant play, you could give him the 8. Or this guy hardly plays one pocket. You could give him 9/7. This weasel is just sucking up to the better player or is in on the action himself. I hate this type of person and the ones that sets up the guys from his own room with road players. THis is the most despicable type of pool rat. DO they think no one else knows what they are in on. To do that to your own crowd is the worse.

Jude Rosenstock
01-29-2008, 02:45 PM
I agree that everyone is ultimately responsible for their own actions, but I thought the initial question was about an inexperienced player who is being targeted by a hustler. If not, then I must have misread the initial post, but if the situation is as I described it, then I really don't see any similarities between that scenario and the one you described. Stalev wasn't hiding his speed, right? So the people who were playing him at least had some idea of what they were getting into. The situation I'm thinking of is more akin to not stopping your friend from walking in front of a bus that he neither sees nor hears. Sure, your friend might learn a lesson from the experience, but it's a lesson that they could have just as easily learned from afar.... and with a bit less pain.

As always, JMHO,

Aaron

Yeah but then I thought about it and it's not really "Stalev" we're guarding against. We're talking about getted robbed unfairly and I think it's important to discuss very specific scenarios. There are times you knock action and there are times you don't. Sometimes, you shouldn't say a word even if it's your own mother playing. Sometimes you SHOULD say something even if you don't really like the guy.

Aaron_S
01-29-2008, 02:51 PM
Yeah but then I thought about it and it's not really "Stalev" we're guarding against. We're talking about getted robbed unfairly and I think it's important to discuss very specific scenarios. There are times you knock action and there are times you don't. Sometimes, you shouldn't say a word even if it's your own mother playing. Sometimes you SHOULD say something even if you don't really like the guy.

Agreed, each situation requires it's own analysis. If a friend is truly unwitting, and about to be taken advantage of, then I would intervene on their part; otherwise, they, like the rest of us, will simply have to deal with the consequences of their decisions. You can't always count on a guardian angel to pull you back just before you step into the lion pit.

Good rolls,

Aaron

Jude Rosenstock
01-29-2008, 03:10 PM
Most of the people that I have a close relationship with, and in a pool hall you can count them on one hand, can usually judge a players speed after a couple of games. Like Kid Delicious came into our room and no one knew him but me and another pool detective. I let my friend play him for a couple of games at $25 a game after 2 games my buddy pulled up and said hey man I cant beat you. Im not even in your league. They had a laugh. My buddy has a good story to tell his kids and learned a good lesson. For $50 bucks I was not going to get involved in it. Now if someone of Kids speed humped it up to something serious like 1K a set I would step in to my very good friend and say you got to know all the facts here. Unless my friend has oodles of $$$$ then he is on his own. He didnt get all that cash for being a dummy unless he inherited it and then he is a dummy if he wants to blow it. But you know if someone wants to play for that kind of cash my friend better send out some of his own detectives and get the line on this guy cause this guy is serious. Horse people do that. They got a sheet for that.
What irks me most is these railbirds who will set a guy up with a bad game. Saying oh this guy cant play, you could give him the 8. Or this guy hardly plays one pocket. You could give him 9/7. This weasel is just sucking up to the better player or is in on the action himself. I hate this type of person and the ones that sets up the guys from his own room with road players. THis is the most despicable type of pool rat. DO they think no one else knows what they are in on. To do that to your own crowd is the worse.


This is the type of room I grew up playing in. Chelsea Billiards was notorious for such things. Whenever there was a game to be made you had to question the source of information, whether or not he has a vested interest in the outcome. "Oh, Joey can't give you that kind of weight! You play like a champion! Yeah, you should only get the 7 ball. Okay, I've got $100 on Joey, any takers?"

Such moves got especially annoying during weekly tournaments where handicaps often determined the winner and the overall purse could easily exceed 8k in calcutta money.

Poolfiend
01-29-2008, 03:13 PM
Agreed, each situation requires it's own analysis. If a friend is truly unwitting, and about to be taken advantage of, then I would intervene on their part; otherwise, they, like the rest of us, will simply have to deal with the consequences of their decisions. You can't always count on a guardian angel to pull you back just before you step into the lion pit.

Good rolls,

Aaron

You're right, you can't always count on someone to save you and sometimes your friends will have to learn the hard way, but if you are able to save them from time to time and know they would appreciate it . . . isn't that what friends are for?

Jude Rosenstock
01-29-2008, 03:16 PM
Oh and regarding my two Mike Sigel scenarios, I could see myself doing a few things in both cases. In the first, I could see not doing anything and I could see casually mentioning something to him between sets like, "So you're playing World Class Pros now, huh?"

In the second scenario, I'd intervene but how is the question. I could see saying something casually between sets and I can see saying outloud, "WTF!!! ARE YOU INSANE???? YOU'RE GIVING HIM WEIGHT?????" If I owned the room, I'd probably have the hustler removed from the premisis.

Aaron_S
01-29-2008, 03:20 PM
You're right, you can't always count on someone to save you and sometimes your friends will have to learn the hard way, but if you are able to save them from time to time and know they would appreciate it . . . isn't that what friends are for?

Absolutely.

Jude Rosenstock
01-29-2008, 03:23 PM
You're right, you can't always count on someone to save you and sometimes your friends will have to learn the hard way, but if you are able to save them from time to time and know they would appreciate it . . . isn't that what friends are for?


Okay, your idiot drunk friend walks into the poolroom one night, grabs the mic from the manager and says in stadium-voice, "I'll give anyone in the room right now the 7 ball!"

Mike Sigel gets up from the chair by the tv, removes his shades & hat and says, "FOR $100 A GAME AND POST IT IN THE LIGHT!"

Your idiot friend says, "SO CHEAP? YOU WANT ME TO DRIVE YOU TO THE ATM, OLD MAN? $300 A GAME IS WHERE I START!"


You love the guy but he's about to lose his rent money. What do you do?

Aaron_S
01-29-2008, 03:24 PM
Okay, your idiot drunk friend walks into the poolroom one night, grabs the mic from the manager and says in stadium-voice, "I'll give anyone in the room right now the 7 ball!"

Mike Sigel gets up from the chair by the tv, removes his shades & hat and says, "FOR $100 A GAME AND POST IT IN THE LIGHT!"

Your idiot friend says, "SO CHEAP? YOU WANT ME TO DRIVE YOU TO THE ATM, OLD MAN? $300 A GAME IS WHERE I START!"


You love the guy but he's about to lose his rent money. What do you do?


LOL. Find a smarter friend. ;)

trustyrusty
01-29-2008, 03:28 PM
Okay, your idiot drunk friend walks into the poolroom one night, grabs the mic from the manager and says in stadium-voice, "I'll give anyone in the room right now the 7 ball!"

Mike Sigel gets up from the chair by the tv, removes his shades & hat and says, "FOR $100 A GAME AND POST IT IN THE LIGHT!"

Your idiot friend says, "SO CHEAP? YOU WANT ME TO DRIVE YOU TO THE ATM, OLD MAN? $300 A GAME IS WHERE I START!"


You love the guy but he's about to lose his rent money. What do you do?

Throw him the classifieds cuz he's gonna need a cheaper place....LOL :D

pletho
01-29-2008, 04:01 PM
IMHO...... EVERYONE who knows ANYTHING about gambling in pool or poker or ANYTHING for that matter, should know , that KNOCKING action or sticking your nose where it doesnt belong is not wise neither is it supposed to be done....

Only the new up and coming players and guys who cant mind their own business seem to do it....

No one has taught them its not right to do.....

When I first started gambling in pool, not saying this is right or wrong, but not even my friends or pool buddies would tell me I am in a bad game, (Unless it was for large amounts of money) and many times I have to be honest I wouldnt have listened anyway, I had to learn on my own, what a goof I was, I learned, but the great thing about it was that I was always matching up and in action, many times over my head and many times I believe I won when I should not have won because I had no idea I was supposed to lose...go figure,

Knocking action is definately bad for the game, unless you are a APA or BCA league player or something along those lines , meaning I think alot of the knocking of action comes from goofs who have no clue about pool period, referring to the fast majority of leaguers out there, not all of them, the bar box bangers, weekend warriors, playing for the glory of winning one or a couple games a week....I just read a thread awhile back asking how many pros came out of the leagues, and not suprisingly to me, very few have.... there are many league players that are very, very good but if they happened to play for cash which many do not, they fall to pieces.... most pros got to be pro and at that level from playing for cash and not for funzzies....

Knocking games makes for less action...I have a few very good friends who may read this, and I will let them know right know, some of them have gotten in over their heads in games they shouldnt win but have won, but if I told them they are a donkey to play so and so for money and that in the long run they were not favored they would probably never get a whole lot better, confidence is believing in yourself and your abilities, if you are always told you cant win and you believe it, you will most likely always lose....

One of the reasons I believe that pool is on the downhill is that NOWDAYS in poolhalls , at least around here, someone will always stupidly or purposely knock your action.....Thats why POKER is such a great game to turn to, you have the biggest fish in the world, and ALOT of them playing and putting their money up against sharks who truly know the game, so much easier to win 100 dollars in poker in less than hour than it is in pool...

So if you want to keep on killing the game of pool, the side of pool that brings out the best of the best, the playing for cash side, well I guess thats your right to do........eventually maybe all the pool players I have lost my money to will come and play poker so I can get my money back....

pletho
01-29-2008, 04:15 PM
I posted that even my friends wouldnt tell me if was in bad action in my last post, and that was normally true, of course if it was going to cost me alot of money I am sure they would have hinted, I probably would have ignored though, I have buddies here that play people who are above them by at least a ball, and never knock the other guys action, WHY because it is not for their life savings and my buddies think they can win and many times they out run it, they often do and it amazes me... They build confidence this way by not knowing they should lose, they wouldnt listen any way most of the time....

Would I protect them from getting robbed, sure but 20 dollar sets and 10 dollar games is not that big a deal, people have got to learn to match up, and many times they never learn until they learn the hard way, I care about all my friends and their well being but they are big boys and know what they are doing and risking, they are not as stupid as i once was:o

quitecoolguy
01-29-2008, 04:22 PM
I would say having some one not tell me that im falling in a trap has helped me. I ran my mouth to a guy who is a better player than myself. I told him to give me some god awuful spot...something like the 3 5 7 9 and two on the wire race to 9 for fifty. He instantly said okay but i get ball in hand after your break. I jumped all over it...well fifty bucks later..i realized that i had walked into a trap. My friend came over to me pretended he had those electric pads they use to shock heart attack victims and yelled CLEAR and hit me in the chest. he laughed and said you got stalled buddy, lesson learned. And you know what i did . Now im the guy that people are whispering to their buddies ..dont play him unless you ask for weight.. haha but i say this..after the first three games you dont know if you should be in the set..you shouldnt be in a pool room with money or a cue.

JMO

trustyrusty
01-29-2008, 04:23 PM
Okay, your idiot drunk friend walks into the poolroom one night, grabs the mic from the manager and says in stadium-voice, "I'll give anyone in the room right now the 7 ball!"

Mike Sigel gets up from the chair by the tv, removes his shades & hat and says, "FOR $100 A GAME AND POST IT IN THE LIGHT!"

Your idiot friend says, "SO CHEAP? YOU WANT ME TO DRIVE YOU TO THE ATM, OLD MAN? $300 A GAME IS WHERE I START!"


You love the guy but he's about to lose his rent money. What do you do?


in this case, I have no pity for drunken fools. He'll learn not to do that again, if not by the loss of moolah, but the scolding from his woman for the loss of moolah. Besides, have you ever tried to talk drunken idiots outta anything. I will pysically take the car keys from his hand, but not his pool cue. Money lost in a pool match is (I never say never) hardly ever life threatening....

boradriver
01-29-2008, 04:25 PM
I saw that a thread was started on this subject last night, things got heated, and the thread was closed. So let's try to keep this one civil.

Would you let a friend of yours get into a bad game in order to not "knock" the other guy's action? I had this debate with Josh Hillard. He said that knocking someone's action is something that you "just don't do", and that I would understand that if I was in the "circle" of people that know about gambling. So what do you think? Let your buddy get hustled, or knock the other guy's action?

I would always help a friend in need. If a buddy of mine is getting into a bad game or playing someone who is known by me to fire air barrels then I will most certainly get his attention and let him know my concerns in private. If he decides to go forward anyway than that is his call. If I don't call either one of them a friend then I let it go down and try and get some money on it.

Neil
01-29-2008, 04:30 PM
..............

Poolfiend
01-29-2008, 04:36 PM
Okay, your idiot drunk friend walks into the poolroom one night, grabs the mic from the manager and says in stadium-voice, "I'll give anyone in the room right now the 7 ball!"

Mike Sigel gets up from the chair by the tv, removes his shades & hat and says, "FOR $100 A GAME AND POST IT IN THE LIGHT!"

Your idiot friend says, "SO CHEAP? YOU WANT ME TO DRIVE YOU TO THE ATM, OLD MAN? $300 A GAME IS WHERE I START!"


You love the guy but he's about to lose his rent money. What do you do?


LOL - My instincts to protect my friend would still probably take over and I'd say something. He's going to look like dumbass after I tell him and he has to tuck his tail between his legs and run. I think that humiliation is enough punishment and then he won't be asking to sleep in my guestroom.

catpool9
01-29-2008, 04:40 PM
It's plain and simple!

If you "knock action, their will be no action!"


David Harcrow

Snap9
01-29-2008, 05:01 PM
Jude, you asked about how to approach scenario 2. I've done all of 4 different ways ofcourse depending on my like or dislike of the road player. I've flat out said it during the middle of their set to the road player. Said to my friend during the set. And said it to either between sets.

I don't mind gambling, but truly despise hustling. Hustling has no place in the game of billiards or pool.

I'll go back a few yrs and give you an example. Their was a coke snorting top tier pool player playing in the hall where I resided at the time. He was a known commodity except for the fish he hooked for a large bag of sand. I knew the fish but did not consider the fish a friend. However the hustler was not even close to a respectable person. The hustler had the game set with the fish giving him a ball. I beat the fish regularly spotting him the 7. I find out the fish is giving the hustler the 8, and the hustler can spot me the 8. I bit my tongue for awhile until the hustler purposedly made a table arangement while down getting ready to shoot. Actually moving a ball under their chest with the bridge hand making it look like a shirt adjustment. I had all I could take and told the fish who the player was and what had just transpired during that rack. After letting the fish know who the hustler was the fish quit stalling and finished the set in record time. The fish than asked for an appropiate adjustment. The hustler refused, laughed and left the building.

Was I wrong for doing it? Absolutely not. Would I do it again? Yes to that player or another if a hustling cheat was on the table playing a regular.

Hustling is why our sport will never be considered anything but a black eye of sports.


Let me pose a question to everyone. How often do you see the european or philipino's hustling? They gamble, but rarely have I seen them hustling. I've played some of them, and most have always offered a favorable spot. Now which countries and nations have the best organized billiards/pool? Where is pool actually considered a sport by their countrymen/women?

Just some food for thought.

Nine Ball
01-29-2008, 05:02 PM
I saw that a thread was started on this subject last night, things got heated, and the thread was closed. So let's try to keep this one civil.

Would you let a friend of yours get into a bad game in order to not "knock" the other guy's action? I had this debate with Josh Hillard. He said that knocking someone's action is something that you "just don't do", and that I would understand that if I was in the "circle" of people that know about gambling. So what do you think? Let your buddy get hustled, or knock the other guy's action?


I said you do not knock peoples action and if you were part of that "circle" meaning people who gamble all the time, some what do it as a job, Then you will have learned knocking is something you just do not do. Try asking some of the old school players that may have done it as a job so to speak what hey think of it. For someone who does it as a job you could be taking food out of their mouth in a way. If someone happens to be a friend of yours, You tell your buddy in
"PRIVATE" you do not air out your opinion for everyone else to hear. Killing someones action is no different than going to someones work place and causing problems. If you can understand that. But I doubt you will ever get it. What was the reason for you to post my name? Doesn't matter to me as I know the people that know anything about the pool world will agree with what I have said.

boradriver
01-29-2008, 05:12 PM
As I said once before you are a goof.. I said you do not knock peoples action and if you were part of that "circle" meaning people who gamble all the time, some what do it as a job, Then you will have learned knocking is something you just do not do. Try asking some of the old school players that may have done it as a job so to speak what hey think of it. For someone who does it as a job you could be taking food out of their mouth in a way. If someone happens to be a friend of yours, You tell your buddy in
"PRIVATE" you do not air out your opinion for everyone else to hear. Killing someones action is no different than going to someones work place and causing problems. If you can understand that. But I doubt you will ever get it.

Nine Ball were in Florida do you live? you can PM me if you want.

Nine Ball
01-29-2008, 05:13 PM
"Knocking" is a subjective term. It is an unwritten code among pool players,
(at least those in the know)that you keep your mouth shut. However most knocking is done by "railbirds" who have zero integrity. If I had to hazard a guess I would say railbirds have cost pool players at least a trillion dollars.



Ding, Ding, Ding.......

Nine Ball
01-29-2008, 05:18 PM
Now take a long look at it easy and try to learn.. I told easy to throw up this thread and see what others had to say about knocking action...

on_snap
01-29-2008, 05:23 PM
if you are a good friend you should let him know what you think. Your alliegence should be to your friend. But on the other hand i do hate it when somebody tells a complete stranger not to play me.. Usually this happens becuase they want the action themselves..

wayne
01-29-2008, 05:26 PM
Jean-Robert (Bobby) Bellande who is now a card player and recently was on Survivor China was known as "Action Bob" as a pool player before he got into cards. He would win or lose thousands playing pool sometimes on a daily basis. He used to screw his cue together as he walked into any pool hall because he would be in action immediately.

One day in Hollywood Billiards he is playing for a couple a hundred a game and taking the worst end of it getting 9-7 in one-pocket. What he didn't know was he was playing Scott Frost. Scott could probably give him 11-5 and still be the favorite.

Bobby is a good friend of mine but I never said a word. After Scott had cleaned him out of whatever cash Bobby had on him, Bobby came over to me and asked me if I could spot him a thousand. He said this guy's luck can't hold up, he just fires at everything and doesn't know any one-pocket moves. I told him that he probably knows a few moves because he is one of the top 5 players in the world he just hasn't found the need to use them on you, so for your own good I am not going to lend you any money.

Nine Ball
01-29-2008, 05:29 PM
This has happened to me so many times in the past it's just goofy. A new guy comes to town, Maybe just for a week while working and likes to gamble. Goes to the pool room asking for cheap action and you have those idiots that will say, Don't play so and so because he will beat you. People that have been in the same pool room for years, Try to talk to you when your there, yet quick to tell someone they don't know that they shouldn't play you. Or the other one of well don't play him you would have a better chance with me. lol.. Thank god for the blank railbirds.. Where would we be without them? lol.. :D

boradriver
01-29-2008, 05:38 PM
Now take a long look at it easy and try to learn.. I told easy to throw up this thread and see what others had to say about knocking... All you other people who attempt to knock action are just a bunch of blanks.. I feel you play so bad and are really such a nobody in the pool world that it's the only way you can actually feel involved. lol.. :) That's not directed towards anyone but action knockers.. :D


I think there is a big difference in knocking action and protecting a good friend.

Example a local A player at the room I go to plays all the ball bangers one handed for $20 to $50 a rack and wins most of the time. Well one night one of the bangers goats him into playing someone he doesn't know $200 a rack and he has to play onehanded. So I stick around to watch and in walks his game and it happens to be someone I have know for awhile and he can play a little(b-or c+). So the unknown player starts banging some balls around and he is shooting left handed which I knew right away was wrong since I have played him many times and he is right handed. So after seeing the act this guys was putting on the A player takes the bait. I like the A player but he is not someone I would consider a friend so i sit back and watch as the A player drops $600 before he backs out and then tries to adjust which they would not agree too. So he is someone that should have known better and is not a good friend so I said nothing. Second example is last year a road player I know from New England is in the AZ room at DCC trying to get in some action acting like he is nothing more that an APA 5(with a APA card none the less and APA patches on his plastic case). I privately let him know that I was not going to sit and watch him rob the guy he was trying to get into a game because he is a friend.
A friend getting robbed and just someone getting into a bad game in my book are totally different.

Nine Ball
01-29-2008, 05:39 PM
My favorite comment from easy is when I try to tell people recently that I have played 10 times in the last 12 months. Easy likes to quote me on that like I'm just full of it. Yet he has no idea. Gotta love it. :D

Nine Ball
01-29-2008, 05:47 PM
I think there is a big difference in knocking action and protecting a good friend.


There's a big difference between telling your friend and telling everyone.

Sorry, I just can't stand people who knock other peoples games. I have seen it happen so many times to other people. Of course everyone usually gets a line from someone. No big deal. But the difference is when you elect to tell everyone instead of just the one person thats supposed to be your friend.

boradriver
01-29-2008, 05:50 PM
There's a big difference between telling your friend and telling everyone.

I would never say it to the room or the world, just to my friend directly that to me is the difference.

Nine Ball
01-29-2008, 05:53 PM
I would never say it to the room or the world, just to my friend directly that to me is the difference.


And there's nothing wrong with telling your friend in "private"

Nine Ball
01-29-2008, 06:19 PM
[QUOTE=easy-e]Maybe I didn't make the lying part clear. I believe that not being honest about your speed and asking for a game that is unfair is lying. And I have seen Josh play also, plenty of times. He claimed to need the last four from people that I firmly believe he plays even with./QUOTE]


Lay it all out there.. There you have it.. I claimed I needed the last 4 from someone all while not asking anyone to play in the thread and nobody asking or even looking to play me.. Just making a comment.. Here comes easy claiming I could play this person even. This is what I mean about those railbirds.. I do not play as good as that person but that doesn't matter. Agree or disagree with me but if he was trying to keep his buddy from being lied to he could of sent him a Private Message.. Need I say again that I was not asking anyone and nobody was asking me to play. It was just a goofy comment. So his comment was uncalled for and when I confronted him in a private message he simply couldn't understand this.

I don't play anymore so I'll just tell you. Yes, I play about like Efren.. Matter of fact I even gave Efren the wild 8 and beat him 10 sets in a row. He finally quit after I hit him with a 12 pack and said to me, You get lucky.. :)

pletho
01-29-2008, 06:28 PM
[QUOTE=easy-e]Maybe I didn't make the lying part clear. I believe that not being honest about your speed and asking for a game that is unfair is lying. And I have seen Josh play also, plenty of times. He claimed to need the last four from people that I firmly believe he plays even with./QUOTE]


Lay it all out there.. There you have it.. I claimed I needed the last 4 from someone all while not asking anyone to play in the thread and nobody asking or even looking to play me.. Just making a comment.. Here comes easy claiming I could play this person even. This is what I mean about those railbirds.. I do not play as good as that person but that doesn't matter. Agree or disagree with me but if he was trying to keep his buddy from being lied to he could of sent him a Private Message.. Need I say again that I was not asking anyone and nobody was asking me to play. It was just a goofy comment. So his comment was uncalled for and when I confronted him in a private message he simply couldn't understand this.

I don't play anymore so I'll just tell you. Yes, I play about like Efren.. Matter of fact I even gave Efren the wild 8 and beat him 10 sets in a row. He finally quit after I hit him with a 12 pack and said to me, You get lucky.. :)

Hey I just played efren also and basically did the same thing, he freaked out and threw his cue through the wall, it just stuck there, he said he could not believe that no one warned him about me and that I was bad action:D

Nine Ball
01-29-2008, 06:33 PM
Hey I just played efren also and basically did the same thing, he freaked out and threw his cue through the wall, it just stuck there, he said he could not believe that no one warned him about me and that I was bad action:D



You shouldn't tell everyone that. Don't you know once the railbirds get back from lunch and read this they are going to tell everyone. :D :p :D
Thats why he didn't know about you. It was a railbird lunch time special at the old joint.

By the way I'll need the last 4 from you since you made him spear his cue. All he did to me was pick his nose and tell me I got lucky. :)

pletho
01-29-2008, 06:40 PM
You shouldn't tell everyone that. Don't you know once the railbirds get back from lunch and read this they are going to tell everyone. :D :p :D
Thats why he didn't know about you. It was a railbird lunch time special at the old joint.

By the way I'll need the last 4 from you since you made him spear his cue. All he did to me was pick his nose and tell me I got lucky. :)

He picks his nose all the time, Its when he starts scratching his head that you know you got him, whats great about my playing ability is that I have been on the stall here in Kansas City for about 5 years now, I barely play 4hours a week and still can beat Efren, I have em all fooled, once they read this they still wont believe me? I walk in to the local pool hall and before i get 3 steps I have all the locals asking to play, they love me, because I play so bad, I have perfected the stall, I am on the long hustle.......

Nine Ball
01-29-2008, 06:59 PM
He picks his nose all the time, Its when he starts scratching his head that you know you got him, whats great about my playing ability is that I have been on the stall here in Kansas City for about 5 years now, I barely play 4hours a week and still can beat Efren, I have em all fooled, once they read this they still wont believe me? I walk in to the local pool hall and before i get 3 steps I have all the locals asking to play, they love me, because I play so bad, I have perfected the stall, I am on the long hustle.......


Just don't go broke before coming off that loooooong stall. hehe.. :p

Fatboy
01-29-2008, 07:22 PM
I never tell someone NOT to play someone, that move will destroy anyone's image and cut them out of alot of potentially profitable information, i have seen guys get beat up bad for knocking. its just a bad thing to do.

pletho
01-29-2008, 07:41 PM
Hey its a family thread, all the kids are here.....what can we talk about next......?

Nine Ball
01-29-2008, 08:20 PM
I never tell someone NOT to play someone, that move will destroy anyone's image and cut them out of alot of potentially profitable information, i have seen guys get beat up bad for knocking. its just a bad thing to do.


This is the first thing you have said that I liked. :p :p

That it's just a bad thing to do..

Alex Kanapilly
01-29-2008, 08:42 PM
I saw that a thread was started on this subject last night, things got heated, and the thread was closed. So let's try to keep this one civil.

Would you let a friend of yours get into a bad game in order to not "knock" the other guy's action? I had this debate with Josh Hillard. He said that knocking someone's action is something that you "just don't do", and that I would understand that if I was in the "circle" of people that know about gambling. So what do you think? Let your buddy get hustled, or knock the other guy's action?

I read about half way down the first page before responding so I don't know what everyone has said so far but I would absolutely under no circumstances let a friend get hustled. I'm talking about someone I know well. I don't care what you guys call me.

Now, if I tell someone what I know and they play anyway, I might watch and chuckle a bit. That's happened more than once.

Nine Ball
01-30-2008, 04:22 AM
Here's a bump for you easy

easy-e
01-30-2008, 06:07 AM
Thanks for the bump. I will stand by the statement that I will NEVER let a friend get hustled. I don't care what you do or how you match up with anyone else......hell, I will even help you get a game with someone I don't know just to put a little food in your mouth. I don't really get that though, if I knock your action with a friend of mine, you say it is like taking food out of your mouth. If I don't tell my friend is it like taking food from his mouth? I would rather my friend has dinner than a hustler, any day.

The only reason I mentioned your name was because you asked me to start this thread, and all I said was that we had a debate on the matter and I stated your opinion (which you backed up).

wincardona
01-30-2008, 06:28 AM
It's a good practice not to knock action period. But there are exceptions to just about every rule,and when your talking about a friend the exception applies. There are variables that must be considered before you intervene, such as what's at stake,and the integrity of the challenge. I'll give you an example. I have gone to extremes to prove a point that descretion is a crucial part of the decision making. If your good friend was about to play a game where the loser would be killed,then you better believe if it wasn't a fair match I would try my best to stop it. If what is at stake is something that your good friend can easily afford to lose then I probably would not intervene allowing him to learn from his mistake. You also have to look at the integrity of how it was proposed,in terms of how it is represented and the character of the people involved.Keep in mind we're talking about a good friend not just an aquaintance,if it's the latter I obviously turn my head and walk.I hope I have helped you ,and for every one reading this post this is exactly how I would handle this type of a situation.

iba7467
01-30-2008, 06:29 AM
Many may disagree, but I would help them avoid any huge mistake.....in life or in pool.

In my experience I have found it just causes grief and tension in the friendship... not exactly talking about the pool game, but in the other aspects of life. A friend of mine and I now never hang out because I warned him that marrying a girl just because she was pregnant was not always the best thing (2 wrongs don't make a right). She hates my guts and whenever (seldom) I do see the guy he talks about how miserable he is.

easy-e
01-30-2008, 06:42 AM
In my experience I have found it just causes grief and tension in the friendship... not exactly talking about the pool game, but in the other aspects of life. A friend of mine and I now never hang out because I warned him that marrying a girl just because she was pregnant was not always the best thing (2 wrongs don't make a right). She hates my guts and whenever (seldom) I do see the guy he talks about how miserable he is.

I see your point. I do think you were being a good friend, and giving good advice. It is always up to the friend to take it or leave it.

Nine Ball
01-30-2008, 06:59 AM
Thanks for the bump. I will stand by the statement that I will NEVER let a friend get hustled. I don't care what you do or how you match up with anyone else......hell, I will even help you get a game with someone I don't know just to put a little food in your mouth. I don't really get that though, if I knock your action with a friend of mine, you say it is like taking food out of your mouth. If I don't tell my friend is it like taking food from his mouth? I would rather my friend has dinner than a hustler, any day.

The only reason I mentioned your name was because you asked me to start this thread, and all I said was that we had a debate on the matter and I stated your opinion (which you backed up).


Easy, I never said to let your friend get got.. I simply said you do not knock peoples action. If he is your friend then you tell him in PRIVATE, You do not air it for everyone to know as that may knock a game. What you did was tell everyone. You could of sent him a PM and said what you wanted and only he would of known your opinion. Besides that me and your friend were never attempting to play each other. In the end what you did was uncalled for. You did the same thing in my fatboy thread. Which again was uncalled for. Don't try and knock peoples potential action man.

easy-e
01-30-2008, 07:02 AM
Easy, I never said to let your friend get got.. I simply said you do not knock peoples action. If he is your friend then you tell him in PRIVATE, You do not air it for everyone to know as that may knock a game. What you did was tell everyone. You could of sent him a PM and said what you wanted and only he would of known your opinion.

Couldn't you have sent him a PM asking for action?

Nine Ball
01-30-2008, 07:08 AM
In the end I think my point to you easy has come out here in some other peoples posts. You don't knock action. If it's a friend do it in "private" and not for everyone to know. What you did in those two threads was uncalled for. And as I told you, Make a thread and you will see what I was telling you. You did and I hope you got it from others.

easy-e
01-30-2008, 07:12 AM
In the end I think my point to you easy has come out here in some other peoples posts. You don't knock action. If it's a friend do it in "private" and not for everyone to know. What you did in those two threads was uncalled for. And as I told you, Make a thread and you will see what I was telling you. You did and I hope you got it from others.

I did. I see your point. I have seen many that think your way, and many that think mine, which is exactly what I was thinking I would see. Go get some action, and as long as you don't rob my friends (which I am not saying you are doing), I will support you. Fair?

Nine Ball
01-30-2008, 07:12 AM
Couldn't you have sent him a PM asking for action?


Buddy I guess there's no hope for you. Like I said before. One day you may do that to the wrong person. I don't play anymore so I don't care that much but it is irritating.

Nine Ball
01-30-2008, 07:14 AM
I did. I see your point. I have seen many that think your way, and many that think mine, which is exactly what I was thinking I would see. Go get some action, and as long as you don't rob my friends (which I am not saying you are doing), I will support you. Fair?


I was never after any of your friends to begin with.. Have fun with the thread.

easy-e
01-30-2008, 07:14 AM
Buddy I guess there's no hope for you. Like I said before. One day you may do that to the wrong person. I don't play anymore so I don't care that much but it is irritating.

We've already addressed this "wrong person" thing. Not scary.

Nine Ball
01-30-2008, 07:16 AM
We've already addressed this "wrong person" thing. Not scary.


Ok buddy take care.

DeadPoked
01-30-2008, 07:18 AM
Buddy I guess there's no hope for you. Like I said before. One day you may do that to the wrong person. I don't play anymore so I don't care that much but it is irritating.

Josh you couldn't be the wrong person to a 12 year old girl. So easy-e has nothing to worry about.

easy-e
01-30-2008, 07:18 AM
Ok buddy take care.

How many "good bye" posts are you going to make?

Nine Ball
01-30-2008, 07:27 AM
Josh you couldn't be the wrong person to a 12 year old girl. So easy-e has nothing to worry about.


Thanks for your comment. I never said I wanted to fight easy or anything so not sure where that comment comes from. I'll just take it as your showing your age and leave it be.

Nine Ball
01-30-2008, 07:29 AM
How many "good bye" posts are you going to make?


And you I was just being polite but I can see you are a total donkey now.. Glad I hang out with much older people. I really can't stand the people around my age.

easy-e
01-30-2008, 07:30 AM
And you I was just being polite but I can see you are a total donkey now.. Glad I hang out with much older people. I really can't stand the people around my age.

Please show me the part where you were being polite?

Nine Ball
01-30-2008, 07:33 AM
Ok buddy take care.


Right here if you can read. I'm done with it.

easy-e
01-30-2008, 07:34 AM
I'm done with it.

I highly doubt that.

DeadPoked
01-30-2008, 07:42 AM
Ok buddy take care.

I can only imagine the smug look on his face as he typed this message. It's hilarious when you get one over on Josh... he tucks his tail between his legs and looks for an exit out of the thread as quickly as possible. He'll try switching the subject and say you're not worth his time. Trust me... his time isn't worth much. Look how desperate he was to rob Fatboy for some rent and food money.

And then he talks about how mature he is... hahahahah. hahahahahaha....


hahaha...

haha.

ha

sigh...

That was a real zinger.

AZE
01-30-2008, 08:55 AM
Pool player does when he sees a friend getting into a bad game;
[ ] berate the player
[ ] warn friend
[x] place side-bet against friend on the D/L


AND JESUS FERGUSON!!!! WHAT THE F* IS UP WITH ALL THE ESTROGEN ON AZBILLIARDS LATELY?!

AZE
01-30-2008, 08:58 AM
I'm not going to take any sides or say who I think was right or wrong. I'm not saying that DP or Easy did any knocking... They are both a-ok so far in my book.

But nineball, FFR, posting up a woof ('challenge' wywci) in an online forum is just begging to get knocked.... it's like flashing a BR in the wrong place, you 'should' be able to do it without getting mugged, but that's not how the world works.

ironman
01-30-2008, 09:11 AM
I saw that a thread was started on this subject last night, things got heated, and the thread was closed. So let's try to keep this one civil.

Would you let a friend of yours get into a bad game in order to not "knock" the other guy's action? I had this debate with Josh Hillard. He said that knocking someone's action is something that you "just don't do", and that I would understand that if I was in the "circle" of people that know about gambling. So what do you think? Let your buddy get hustled, or knock the other guy's action?

If KT were trying to sell your friend something and he didn't know who KT was, would you tell him about him? That ain't knocking, it's information.

pletho
01-30-2008, 11:04 AM
The World can give me the wild 7,8, and break on the bar box.............

easy-e
01-30-2008, 11:06 AM
The World can give me the wild 7,8, and break on the bar box.............

I will call him and set it up.

pletho
01-30-2008, 11:12 AM
I will call him and set it up.

Okay, Hey are you the real easy E? :) AZ forums are addictive dont you think? If you are ever in KC maybe we can match up, I think there is a airforce base here, I dont play very good but like to be in action? I like poker much better though?

easy-e
01-30-2008, 11:14 AM
Okay, Hey are you the real easy E? :) AZ forums are addictive dont you think? If you are ever in KC maybe we can match up, I think there is a airforce base here, I dont play very good but like to be in action? I like poker much better though?

I think that would be fun, thanks for the offer. I think the other easy-e is dead, but I am the "real" Easy-e. What base is out there?

DGunter
01-30-2008, 12:43 PM
I believe Whiteman AFB is there.

easy-e
01-30-2008, 12:49 PM
I believe Whiteman AFB is there.

Pretty sure that is in Missouri.

DGunter
01-30-2008, 12:52 PM
KC is technically in MO isn't it? Whiteman is about an hour south of KC, MO

BVal
01-30-2008, 12:52 PM
KC is technically in MO isn't it? Whiteman is about an hour south of KC, MO
KC is in Missourri and Kansas.

BVal

DGunter
01-30-2008, 12:53 PM
Yeah I spent some time at Leavenworth there...the base...not the prison. :)

easy-e
01-30-2008, 12:58 PM
KC is technically in MO isn't it? Whiteman is about an hour south of KC, MO

HAHA, apparantly I am a "geography-tard".

DGunter - 1
Easy-e - 0

DGunter
01-30-2008, 01:00 PM
I had prior knowledge due to getting lost trying to find that awesome steakhouse they have there. You can slide on this one. :)

pletho
01-30-2008, 05:30 PM
I think that would be fun, thanks for the offer. I think the other easy-e is dead, but I am the "real" Easy-e. What base is out there?

Yes it is whiteman AFB, and kansas city includes kansas and missouri both, we have the midwest nine ball tour coming in feb around 21-24 one pocket and nine ball, usually alot of people and plenty of action for all...come on over, up, down, and from all around, it will be at shooters in olathe kansas, owner is Dan Tull...

ccshrimper
01-30-2008, 07:47 PM
In my experience I have found it just causes grief and tension in the friendship... not exactly talking about the pool game, but in the other aspects of life. A friend of mine and I now never hang out because I warned him that marrying a girl just because she was pregnant was not always the best thing (2 wrongs don't make a right). She hates my guts and whenever (seldom) I do see the guy he talks about how miserable he is.

I agree somewhat.. I watched two friends of mine get into a fight one night because one tried to tell the other he couldn't win a game. One guy thought he was trying to help and the other guy thought he was being insulted. There wasn't any hustling going on though and looking back everyone should have minded their business. Railbirds kill a pool hall if you let them IMO.

If there was hustling or a LOT at stake I would definitely step in for a friend.

alstl
01-30-2008, 09:15 PM
Wouldn't be much of a friend to stand by and let your buddy get hustled.