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Jerry Forsyth
02-02-2008, 09:32 AM
Please use this forum to express positive ideas for assisting the growth of professional pool in America.

MikeJanis
02-02-2008, 10:09 AM
Jerry, is this going to have its own section, a sticky or will it just be another thread ?

Mj

Cameron Smith
02-02-2008, 10:19 AM
Please use this forum to express positive ideas for assisting the growth of professional pool in America.

Well, I think the popularity of Poker and Golf has shown us that people in north america can enjoy a sport/game without fast action and breaking bones.

Furthermore I believe the statistic is that 50 million people play pool regularily in the US. If this statistic is correct or even close to being true, then there has to be a market for the game somewhere.

I think one of the problems is, we haven't got any household names, thus there isn't anyone to draw the public. Often for people to enjoy watching a sport, the audience has to care who wins. As it stands, aficianados will watch for the sake of watching pool, which isn't enough people to create a new tour out of.

Personally I enjoy watching golf, but I will rarely watch the nationwide tour, as I want to see Phil Mickleson, Vijay Singh, Mike Weir and of course Tiger Woods.

Snooker became popular in England due to the Pot Black show. The Ultimate Fighter introduced us to the UFC, and we learned about the upcoming fighters on the show and everyone got to know each shows respective coaches.

One potential idea is to have a weekly show that spends a substantial amount of time, introducing us to the players involved in the match at hand. And by substantial I mean more than 23 seconds. It's very simplistic but given a decent timeslot, and a provocative presentation it couldn't hurt.

I do not believe people can't enjoy pool because it looks too easy. This assumes that everyone outside of the pool world is hopelessly foolish. Anyone who has ever played the game knows that they can't repeat what is being shown on the television.

worriedbeef
02-02-2008, 10:40 AM
I also think ten ball is the discipline to further pool's growth. Nine ball just looks too easy sometimes and gives the wrong impression. A soft cut break and three balls down and watching a player make six hangers over the hole doesn't help the game. Pool is arguably the toughest game on the planet to master and we need a game that reflects that.

after watching plenty of action report events and coverage recently, it's become apparent to me that ten ball should be the main game on diamond tables. you need a good break too, which people like to see.

if pool could just get say a couple of matches on a week in a half decent timeslot i think it'd be a start. Nothing fancy, just a full race to 10-15 say with two top players and two good commentators to discuss the shots and the game.

An idea would be the action report producing regular matches for television. Just say 90 mins once/twice a week of SVB versus corey or something with billy and grady in the box. Nothing fancy or overblown on the production side either, just as it is on the dvd's with an introduction and a couple of interviews with the players.

people would enjoy watching a good solid high class match with intelligent commentary i think. to teach them about the game. people would be interested. as disillusioned as we can all get with society sometimes, i still feel the public would enjoy a simple, intelligently presented programme without all the razmatazz and dumbing down for tv.

it would be a completely different offering to the WPBA broadcasts too. no mitch lawrence creaming his pants over a two inch draw shot with a hanger in the middle pocket. people know the game is being dumbed down for them, they are not stupid. but they will still watch because the attraction with the women's game is just that - they are women.

Scott Lee
02-02-2008, 11:00 AM
Cameron...It's not correct. The 40,000,000+ figure refers to SGMA numbers of people who have played pool at least once in the past year. The more accurate figure that you're looking for is somewhere around 10%...or 4-5 million REGULAR players...those being defined as someone who probably plays weekly or better, but at least once a month. That's still a good size audience, and a significant market share for potential advertisers, if they can be reached somehow.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Furthermore I believe the statistic is that 50 million people play pool regularily in the US. If this statistic is correct or even close to being true, then there has to be a market for the game somewhere.

Island Drive
02-02-2008, 11:07 AM
......in a co-operative manner without forcing them into a rigid, pre-determined box.

I recommend you remove this agressive statement from the front page....

Island Drive
02-02-2008, 11:09 AM
......in a co-operative manner without forcing them into a rigid, pre-determined box.

FYI......I HIGHLY recommend you REMOVE this agressive statement from the main event on the AZ front page....

pooltchr
02-02-2008, 11:12 AM
I think the APA and other similar leagues have a golden opportunity to promote the game on a local level that would generate greater interest in pool as a sport. Every cable operator in the country is required to offer a local access channel at no charge. In our market, we have a city tournament 3 times a year. How great would it be to have live coverage of local area teams competing for the chance to represent our area at the nationals in Vegas? How many players would be encouraging their friends and family to watch them on tv competing? As someone pointed out, viewers need to have someone to pull for. If a team from Matthews is playing a team from Statesville, the local flavor would be a great asset.

I think building public recognition from the ground up would create a more solid foundation for viewership. Once people start watching the top local players, I believe there would be more interest in regional and top level professional events.

MJ....have you ever considered televising Viking events in the local markets where you hold events? Since air time is free, the only costs would be video production.

Steve

MikeJanis
02-02-2008, 11:18 AM
......in a co-operative manner without forcing them into a rigid, pre-determined box.

FYI......I HIGHLY recommend you REMOVE this agressive statement from the main event on the AZ front page....


I didn't write the story but I dont not see it as aggressive. Please explain ?

"Janis is remaining fairly mum about the details of his plan as he does not wish to put the BCA in a position where they cannot alter his framework. He wants to be able to work out the fine details with them in a co-operative manner without forcing them into a rigid, pre-determined box."


To me it states exectly what it says. I left the framework open ended so if the BCA is interested in supporting this it gives them an opportunity to help mold it to suit their interests for the BCA members. I just don't see how that is an agressive ststement.

Mj

Fatboy
02-02-2008, 11:20 AM
Please use this forum to express positive ideas for assisting the growth of professional pool in America.

Jerry I agree 10000% there has been too much BS here about nothing, and while thats part of pool, and is fun it dosent do anything to perserve what little the pro players have or benefit them, You know aw well as anyone that anyone involved in the business end of pool comes here, top cue makers, professional players, the whole A list crown, but dont post they come here to see where the players heads are at, not the pro's but the majority of the market A,B,C players league players. But with all the BS it gets diffucult for them to seoperate the wheat from the chaff, so having an area for Mike Janis, you, Cardone, Jay Helfert(when he is being serious ;) ) should be here on AZ, there are people that can contribute valuable information to get people all on the same page or have spiritted discussion and come to terms so some progress can be made, I could too to a very limited extent, alot of people here could. And keep it professional, sure we like to talk shit but there is a time and a place, and a forum that would be the no bullshit zone I think would be good, and let the general forum be the shit zone, just my 3 cents, it was 2 but with inflation I raised it to 3 cents. thanks for listining,


p.s with all the pool rooms droppig like flys thats really gonna hurt the product distrbuters, vendors etc. There could be alot of useful information on how to keep the surviving rooms alive and benefit those owners. having a resourceful place for people to come too would be the plan.

JimS
02-02-2008, 11:20 AM
I like the idea of a weekly show with two name players and two name player/commentators like Danny D or Grady, Billy Incardona, Buddy, Jay, Freddy, Fred Agnir, The TAR guys, Mark Wilson, Jeanette Lee, Allison, Karen, Sarah, etc.

I think part of the show could be aimed at beginners. During the match when remarkable shots are made or excellent position play is exhibited the commentators could go to a table and show the public how the shot was executed, i.e. exactly how a certain amount of side and bottom english caused a certain amount of unnatural angle for the cue ball to take. Then the beginner/average player/novice/banger/housewife could see what it takes to be a decent player. They could be shown how a shot would have come out if it was hit center ball and how it came out with the pros action on the cb. They'd come to understand the amount of skill that goes into makeing the game look so easy.

That's what I think might sell the 2 or 3 or 5 handicap league player and might create some interest in going to the ph to try some of that stuff. They might actually practice!! :D

mantis99
02-02-2008, 11:30 AM
I do not really see that statement as aggressive either.

I would suggest a good grass roots effort to get local pool halls and bars/leagues to advertise the tour. People can not participate in something if they do not hear about it.

Cameron,
The idea of a reality based pool show has been talked about fairly frequently on here. I think this would be a great idea. Especially if the contestants were coached by one of the greats, and the regular watcher could gather some instruction that they may be itching to try out after the show. If it actually helped them, they may be more likely to continue play. Pool is a very difficult game to become proficient at it, and when you first start out, it is frustrating enough to push most away fairly quickly. Success at some level will help people want to play more. Overall, I think it would be a great idea. Any media helps. Just look what the COM did for pool when it came out.

Beef,
I disagree with the 10 ball idea. I know it is a popular idea here, but the avg player can barely sink 2-3 balls in a row in 9 ball, so why make it harder. Anyone who picks up a stick to do what they see on tv will quickly realize that 9 ball is not too easy. If we want hard breaks, create rules to outlaw the soft break, some are out there already.

Bigkahuna
02-02-2008, 11:42 AM
Please use this forum to express positive ideas for assisting the growth of professional pool in America.

I am an avid player of this game and think this is beautiful game to watch when you see players in dead stroke in a televised match. However, I also believe if you have no understanding of the game it would seem boring. How many non golf players will watch golf?

I think we need to start from the bottom and the leagues are doing a good job of it by bringing new players into feild. While we may not be developing professional pool players we certainly are producing fans of the game and people who can watch that match and understand the beauty of it.

If you look at the APA for instance they have a 23 rule. From a business pespective this is a business plan. Form a team and keep handicaps under 23 for five players. The players get better and the team has to split then both teams go out and recruit new players that may have never played. This is called growth.

Bigkahuna
02-02-2008, 11:48 AM
Please use this forum to express positive ideas for assisting the growth of professional pool in America.

In the history of pool there has been a major resurgence after a hit movie about the game perhaps we need to produce the Hulster trilogy:rolleyes:

Scott Lee
02-02-2008, 11:51 AM
Steve...Having been in the "cable biz" years ago, I feel somewhat qualified to respond here. While it's true that the local cable operator is required to offer a 'local access' channel, they are not required to provide the necessary equipment or funding to produce the 'local' events you're talking about. I agree that it would do a lot to enhance pool on a local level, but you'd have to come up with a way to fund it, including the production crew required to pull it off. The APA national organization would seem like the place to go with something like this. I would guess that if you took a miniscule $.10 from each APA weekly player fee, that would provide hundreds of thousands of dollars...plenty to produce these kinds of t.v. programs...at least for the "city cup" level, if not regional and national too. just my two cents!:D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I think the APA and other similar leagues have a golden opportunity to promote the game on a local level that would generate greater interest in pool as a sport. Every cable operator in the country is required to offer a local access channel at no charge. In our market, we have a city tournament 3 times a year. How great would it be to have live coverage of local area teams competing for the chance to represent our area at the nationals in Vegas? How many players would be encouraging their friends and family to watch them on tv competing? As someone pointed out, viewers need to have someone to pull for. If a team from Matthews is playing a team from Statesville, the local flavor would be a great asset.

I think building public recognition from the ground up would create a more solid foundation for viewership. Once people start watching the top local players, I believe there would be more interest in regional and top level professional events.

MJ....have you ever considered televising Viking events in the local markets where you hold events? Since air time is free, the only costs would be video production.

Steve

bfdlad
02-02-2008, 11:59 AM
I have said this before, the sport needs characters as well as tv. Earl is a character. Please take the time and go to youtube.com in your serch type in "When Snooker Ruled The World" it will take 1 hour to watch the whole thing but it is in 6 parts. So obviously look for part one. then the rest will show up. This shows you how Snooker began and how it became popular. Did you know that when they began Pot Black the forst snooker show it was broadcast in black and white. I mean COME ON if snooker in black and white can make it we have a shot right????

Island Drive
02-02-2008, 12:00 PM
I do not really see that statement as aggressive either.

I would suggest a good grass roots effort to get local pool halls and bars/leagues to advertise the tour. People can not participate in something if they do not hear about it.

Cameron,
The idea of a reality based pool show has been talked about fairly frequently on here. I think this would be a great idea. Especially if the contestants were coached by one of the greats, and the regular watcher could gather some instruction that they may be itching to try out after the show. If it actually helped them, they may be more likely to continue play. Pool is a very difficult game to become proficient at it, and when you first start out, it is frustrating enough to push most away fairly quickly. Success at some level will help people want to play more. Overall, I think it would be a great idea. Any media helps. Just look what the COM did for pool when it came out.

Beef,
I disagree with the 10 ball idea. I know it is a popular idea here, but the avg player can barely sink 2-3 balls in a row in 9 ball, so why make it harder. Anyone who picks up a stick to do what they see on tv will quickly realize that 9 ball is not too easy. If we want hard breaks, create rules to outlaw the soft break, some are out there already.


Forcing...I feel is a poorly chosen word...thats all...I'm just trying to make sure there are NO waves made before hand, otherwise I like 99.9% of what's said, you guys asked me what I think, I responded

MikeJanis
02-02-2008, 12:06 PM
Forcing...I feel is a poorly chosen word...thats all...I'm just trying to make sure there are NO waves made before hand, otherwise I like 99.9% of what's said, you guys asked me what I think, I responded


But the article states "without forcing them"

Her is the entire sentance.

"He wants to be able to work out the fine details with them in a co-operative manner without forcing them into a rigid, pre-determined box."

It basically states " Hey, here is a plan, if you like it great. If not, what changes do you suggest be made that would suit you better. I' open for options. "

bfdlad
02-02-2008, 12:12 PM
I also think ten ball is the discipline to further pool's growth. Nine ball just looks too easy sometimes and gives the wrong impression. A soft cut break and three balls down and watching a player make six hangers over the hole doesn't help the game. Pool is arguably the toughest game on the planet to master and we need a game that reflects that.

after watching plenty of action report events and coverage recently, it's become apparent to me that ten ball should be the main game on diamond tables. you need a good break too, which people like to see.

if pool could just get say a couple of matches on a week in a half decent timeslot i think it'd be a start. Nothing fancy, just a full race to 10-15 say with two top players and two good commentators to discuss the shots and the game.

An idea would be the action report producing regular matches for television. Just say 90 mins once/twice a week of SVB versus corey or something with billy and grady in the box. Nothing fancy or overblown on the production side either, just as it is on the dvd's with an introduction and a couple of interviews with the players.

people would enjoy watching a good solid high class match with intelligent commentary i think. to teach them about the game. people would be interested. as disillusioned as we can all get with society sometimes, i still feel the public would enjoy a simple, intelligently presented programme without all the razmatazz and dumbing down for tv.

it would be a completely different offering to the WPBA broadcasts too. no mitch lawrence creaming his pants over a two inch draw shot with a hanger in the middle pocket. people know the game is being dumbed down for them, they are not stupid. but they will still watch because the attraction with the women's game is just that - they are women.
I guess in my previous post, what I am saying is that TV time alone will not do it. The players have to try and come out of their shells a little. It's hard when you are trying to focus on the match but there has to be a reason for the average Joe to either love a player or hate a player for reasons other than they can run the table.

JesPiddlin
02-02-2008, 12:32 PM
...One potential idea is to have a weekly show that spends a substantial amount of time, introducing us to the players involved in the match at hand. And by substantial I mean more than 23 seconds. It's very simplistic but given a decent timeslot, and a provocative presentation it couldn't hurt....

I really like this idea. Let's see...

A weekly or twice weekly show that comes on the same time every week, so everyone knows when and where to find it...

A little background info on the players...

A few simple lessons in each week's show, which should help the newbie learn the game, the casual player get better at the game, and the really good player get another person's point of view.

Put this on free tv, not espn. Not everyone can afford to pay and a lot of everyday pool players don't have time for tv, so they don't see the need to pay for something they don't use... or they don't have the money for it, because they used it for pool league. :D

I don't like the idea of APA games, but that's my personal preference. I just don't agree with some of the ways they try to "balance" things. If you tried explaining some of their ideas to the general public as part of the game, they'd turn the channel, because it wouldn't be worth their time to figure out what the heck is going on. It's like trying to figure out how to do your taxes. It is just too confusing. As I said, that's my preference and it's really what I believe, as far as how the public would perceive it.

I just think simpler will bring more viewers, as long as you don't get too basic. (Assuming your audience is a bunch of dummies who never play pool would be disastrous!) You want to intrigue the audience with class and simplicity, not scare them off with too many rules or other things to understand. If the game seems to complicated, they won't stay.

john schmidt
02-02-2008, 12:33 PM
i just watched the world snooker championships a few days ago from 2004.thats the way to show a tourney.they do extensive interviews with the players ,they let you get to know them.also in between frames the commentators explain how and why they shot a shot like they did.they give massive amounts of stats and records and past clips and soundbites from the players playing or about to play to build the exitement.it also does not hurt when they say so and so has made 6 million pounds in the last ten years in his career.these snooker players are respected but believe me if they only made 16 thousand a year no body would look at them like superstars.trust me you can put shane van boning on tv everday for a year straight,but when the audience sees that first place is only 10-20 thousand the first thing they think is i sure as hell am not going to give two shits about watching or becoming great at pool.

!Smorgass Bored
02-02-2008, 12:43 PM
One potential idea is to have a weekly show that spends a substantial amount of time, introducing us to the players involved in the match at hand. And by substantial I mean more than 23 seconds. It's very simplistic but given a decent timeslot, and a provocative presentation it couldn't hurt.


Here was an idea that I had nine years ago in a land far away: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.billiard/msg/90806c3c63bd43e4

Doug

Scaramouche
02-02-2008, 01:23 PM
I have said this before, the sport needs characters as well as tv. Earl is a character. Please take the time and go to youtube.com in your serch type in "When Snooker Ruled The World" it will take 1 hour to watch the whole thing but it is in 6 parts. So obviously look for part one. then the rest will show up. This shows you how Snooker began and how it became popular. Did you know that when they began Pot Black the forst snooker show it was broadcast in black and white. I mean COME ON if snooker in black and white can make it we have a shot right????

When Snooker Ruled The World
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vi5tBd-xw1g&mode=related&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pLxkYhM5sbE&mode=related&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2ylcK05Y57Q&mode=related&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=S_nU1O-k-44&mode=related&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z3l_5aXxS4M&mode=related&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=PuW7OlzmasU&mode=related&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2YdgCsW6IrU&mode=related&search=

Scaramouche
02-02-2008, 01:29 PM
The Premier League format might be of interest once rankings are established.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=76155&highlight=premier+league

jimmyg
02-02-2008, 01:35 PM
Please, realize that what I'm about to write is in no way meant to be insulting to the many first rate professional pool players thruout the world. It's just a sampling of the attitude that many people have about pool and it's players.

I have a Chinese friend that is a excellent tennis player, several years ago when he learned that I was playing in pool tournaments he said something insulting about the game and the people that play it. I replied that I thought that pool was very popular in China, and his reply was "in China only low-lifes play pool" Of course, I no longer value his opinion, nor his friendship very much.

Now, only a few months ago I was having trouble with my computer and when I called tech support, I reached a young sounding gentleman in the Philippines. While talking with him I asked if he played pool and he said that he didn't, but he was familiar with Reyes and some other well known players there. So, I asked him if the game was mainstream, or limited to a subculture. Well, he actually said that it was limited to the subculture, not respected mainstream.

And lastly, about ten years ago I proudly mentioned to my ailing, now deceased, Mother, that I had won two pool tournaments that week...her reply: "pool?, that's a bums sport". (please no mother bashing).

I don't know exactly what any of this proves, if anything, but it seems to me that without a total change in the general attitudes of the general public pool is more likely to remain exactly where it is...far behind the rest of sports.

Unless an unified, quality, professional group of leaders (not KT) having one mindset, with the long term goal of promoting pool as a respectable, family oriented, mainstream sport, is formed without the gambling aspect included, pool will not change in that direction.

Pool must be included in schools at all levels, colleges must have competing teams with letters awarded and State championships. That will encourge scholorship money and respect. There must also be a better effort to have it included in the Olympics. And, of course, most old time road players, and hustlers, while extremely colorful, are not, IMO, exactly the same individuals capable of doing this. We need new, educated, articulate, representatives that have a mainstream appearance.

Without these, and other, changes, IMO pool remains exactly where it is.

PS: Of course, no one cares what people do privately.:rolleyes:

Jim

pwd72s
02-02-2008, 01:38 PM
The key seems to be getting TV aboard. I scan the listings for pool, but I'm a junkie. To build an audience, you'd need the channel surfers to decide to linger a while.

I agree with putting player "personality" on display. Nothing vulgar or crazy, but "close to the line". For example, Cindy & I Both get a kick out of the antics of "Ocho Cinco" of the Bengals...Chad Johnson. We also laugh when he's interviewed by the sideline girls.

bfdlad
02-02-2008, 01:43 PM
Its amazing to me that players still have this rep. we have Alot of top layers who have families, hardly drink or smoke and still get the bad rep. SVB No drink, smoke or drugs, Archer same, Tony Crosby same, Rodney Morris Light drink no drugs, no smoke, These are some of the top pros in the sport that I know pesonally I think they are great role models for the young player coming up. We can look at Fotball, basketball etc and find drugs & booze very easy.

JesPiddlin
02-02-2008, 01:45 PM
Please, realize that what I'm about to write is in no way meant to be insulting to the many first rate professional pool players thruout the world. It's just a sampling of the attitude that many people have about pool and it's players.

I have a Chinese friend that is a excellent tennis player, several years ago when he learned that I was playing in pool tournaments he said something insulting about the game and the people that play it. I replied that I thought that pool was very popular in China, and his reply was "in China only low-lifes play pool" Of course, I no longer value his opinion, nor his friendship very much.

Now, only a few months ago I was having trouble with my computer and when I called tech support, I reached a young sounding gentleman in the Philippines. While talking with him I asked if he played pool and he said that he didn't, but he was familiar with Reyes and some other well known players there. So, I asked him if the game was mainstream, or limited to a subculture. Well, he actually said that it was limited to the subculture, not respected mainstream.

And lastly, about ten years ago I proudly mentioned to my ailing, now deceased, Mother, that I had won two pool tournaments that week...her reply: "pool?, that's a bums sport". (please no mother bashing).

I don't know exactly what any of this proves, if anything, but it seems to me that without a total change in the general attitudes of the general public pool is more likely to remain exactly where it is...far behind the rest of sports.

Unless an unified, quality, professional group (not KT) of one mindset leaders is formed, with a long term approach to promoting pool as a mainstream sport without the gambling aspect included pool will not change in that direction.

Pool must be included in schools at all levels, colleges must have competing teams with letters awarded and State championships. That will encourge scholorship money and respect. There must also be a better effort to have it included in the Olympics. And, of course, most old time road players, and hustlers, while extremely colorful, are not, IMO, exactly the same individuals capable of doing this. We need new, educated, articulate, representatives that have a mainstream appearance.

Without these, and other, changes, IMO pool remains exactly where it is.

PS: Of course, no one cares what people do privately.:rolleyes:

Jim

I do agree that the drinking, smoking, gambling image is in most minds, still. It is the image that pool is what you do down at the local barroom that we really have to overcome. FAMILY pool halls that manage to get folks to realize they exist are doing the best at this. We need a lot more of them. Raising the kids in the places where violence, smoking, gambling and drinking aren't allowed is something most parents want. Get the family support and you have a sport that will take off.

cueandcushion
02-02-2008, 01:53 PM
In the history of pool there has been a major resurgence after a hit movie about the game perhaps we need to produce the Hulster trilogy:rolleyes:


Successful trilogy ideas.

Lord of the Balls.
Ball Wars.
Harry "Balls" Potter.
Indiana Jones and the Temple of Pool.

We prolly just need a movie with zero script that involves a naked Jessica Alba and Angelina Jolie wrestling on a pool table in a bar everytime there is a cue ball foul. Then of course on the third foul the crusty old rail bird (played by Fred Thompson) comes out and has a handy bucket of jello to throw on them. Then convince America that this scenerio is normal in a pool hall. Then everyone will come and play pool thinking that will happen "any minute".
Then of course the sequel where they match up on the snooker table, and the third movie on the 3-Cushion table.....wait for it.........in 3D!!!!

jimmy-leggs
02-02-2008, 02:05 PM
OK......I'm going to have to say something.......How can we promote the game when everyone talks about 9-ball,10 ball,14.1,straight pool,etc.Sure there is 50 million people that play pool,but of that 50 million,45 million play 8 BALL.So please everyone,if pool is going to be a mega money making sport it HAS TO BE presented with the MASSES in mind.
How can you possibly get huge sponsors or attraction from the every day social pool player when all you see are games you have never played or heard of ?
I know what all the die hard pool players are going to think of this, BUT its time to wake up,pool will never be what pool should be until the pro's,the industry,the overall format switches over to 8 BALL.And Until that,people won't give a rats ass.

SJDinPHX
02-02-2008, 02:31 PM
Please use this forum to express positive ideas for assisting the growth of professional pool in America.
Jerry, I should have posted with you instead of starting a new thread.
Please see my thread.." At last someone is starting to make sense".
We are all trying to better our sport, kudos to you.
Dick

Gerry
02-02-2008, 02:36 PM
Beef,
I disagree with the 10 ball idea. I know it is a popular idea here, but the avg player can barely sink 2-3 balls in a row in 9 ball, so why make it harder. Anyone who picks up a stick to do what they see on tv will quickly realize that 9 ball is not too easy. If we want hard breaks, create rules to outlaw the soft break, some are out there already.

or...if the average player can't make 3 in a row, 1 more is meaningless. BUT, to the Pros the breaking/racking/wingball issues are removed, and we NEVER have to hear the term "soft break" again! :D it's just a better game.

The billiards industry should NOT change a game (9ball breaks, 7ball :rolleyes: ) to make Joe Public happy, just find the right way to produce it. If all the folks around the world will watch Snooker, they will watch 10ball or whatever, but the same marketing may not work on Americans that worked for the UK and snooker.?

worriedbeef
02-02-2008, 02:57 PM
just one point for everyone who brings up snooker and it's success. the BBC. snooker's been very lucky in that it's had a state funded broadcasting organisation providing funding and hours of primetime coverage for years. unfortunately pool/america doesn't have this. without the BBC snooker would be in a very dire situation now, as was being forecast as recently as about a year and half ago.

or...if the average player can't make 3 in a row, 1 more is meaningless. BUT, to the Pros the breaking/racking/wingball issues are removed, and we NEVER have to hear the term "soft break" again! it's just a better game.

The billiards industry should NOT change a game to make Joe Public happy

agreed. 9-ball is 9-ball. we shouldnt have to artificially try and force changes onto the game to improve it. just leave it for what it is. a great game, but flawed. so for the pro's and tournament play, 10 ball.

i mean how can you enforce a hard break in 9-ball really? a radar gun? a laser sensor to ensure a solid hit on the one ball is made? of course not.
they tried to enforce a hard break in the mosconi but it just ended up a cut break at speed to make the one in the side, and half the time they were giving up foul breaks because not enough balls had reached past the headstring. it looked silly.

ten ball by nature encourages you to break them hard and get a solid hit on the one, and also brings into play other key added elements such as more safety and a tougher run out.

Dawgie
02-02-2008, 03:01 PM
It would be a big benefit if our industry could reach out to co's. outside our sport and co-sponsor a pool TV show. If people watch other people fishing I can see why they could draw an audience for pool. Having a decent amount of money given away each would be a big boost for the show.

Deal or no Deal comes to mind. It certainly is a mindless show with NO SKILL involved whatsoever !

JesPiddlin
02-02-2008, 03:18 PM
OK.......Sure there is 50 million people that play pool,but of that 50 million,45 million play 8 BALL.So please everyone,if pool is going to be a mega money making sport it HAS TO BE presented with the MASSES in mind....

I have to agree with this one.

SJDinPHX
02-02-2008, 03:21 PM
[QUOTE=Cameron Smith]Well, I think the popularity of Poker and Golf has shown us that people in north america can enjoy a sport/game without fast action and breaking bones.QUOTE)

I agree with almost all of your post. There are "colorful people" in our sport
and we need to get them exposed. That will come. The media loves to talk to Michael Jordon or Tiger, but VJ and many others (lacking a better
way to put it) have no personality. We have no shortage of colorful
characters in cuesports. They will surface with exposure.

MikeJanis
02-02-2008, 03:25 PM
I have been reading over this thread quite intensely. I see many ideas that involve TV and outside sponsorships. For those in that line of thought there is 1 BIG problem. Nobody wants us. Pool that is.

The big question that nobody seems to understand is HOW DO WE GET FROM HERE TO THERE (there being getting corporate sponsorships)

You need to understand that many promoters have tried and they have all failed to get and keep large outside industry sponsors. The basic problem as I see it is that we do not have much to sell them.

I have a plan to change that. It's a real good one and it will work if it gets off the ground with the funding from the BCA.

Instead of 1 promoter offering 1 TV event or 7 for that matter my system will offer large corporate sponsors nationwide advertising on hundreds of events each year which will include television, Internet, local distribution and on and on. After talking and negotiation with outside industry corporations I have found this is exactly what they want and are willing to pay for. They need large numbers and proof that those numbers exist.

In addition, I took what they (corporate sponsors) want and combined it what we have and what we (WE being the billiard industry and sport) need and put it in a simple little package that is easy to understand and sell to everyone.

The big problem with my and everyones else's ideas that would help the sport lies in the funding and longevity to get thing rolling. It's easy to talk about TV events but it is extremely difficult to come up with the $150-175K need to produce the events.

My plan puts all of the factors into play. Its a plan that I have been working on for 4 solid years and it will take up to the next 5 years to fully implement so it can sustain its self.

One of the main goals of the system I am proposing calls for cooperation among many in the billiard industry including players, rooms, pro-shops, manufactures, the fans and the promoters. Through this cooperation we can streamline our effirts to compliment each other and build our sport to the highest possible level.

For the next few months until the BCA Trade Expo in June I ask that everyone here work together for this one goal and only this one goal. If it is achieved, everyone in our sport will share in the benefits.

Mj

SJDinPHX
02-02-2008, 03:27 PM
......in a co-operative manner without forcing them into a rigid, pre-determined box.

FYI......I HIGHLY recommend you REMOVE this agressive statement from the main event on the AZ front page....

I totally agree.

Johnnyt
02-02-2008, 03:30 PM
OK......I'm going to have to say something.......How can we promote the game when everyone talks about 9-ball,10 ball,14.1,straight pool,etc.Sure there is 50 million people that play pool,but of that 50 million,45 million play 8 BALL.So please everyone,if pool is going to be a mega money making sport it HAS TO BE presented with the MASSES in mind.
How can you possibly get huge sponsors or attraction from the every day social pool player when all you see are games you have never played or heard of ?
I know what all the die hard pool players are going to think of this, BUT its time to wake up,pool will never be what pool should be until the pro's,the industry,the overall format switches over to 8 BALL.And Until that,people won't give a rats ass.

I agree Jimmy. 95% of mainstream USA thinks of 8-ball when it thinks of pool. As far as pool being alive in the USA...I believe it is with the millions of APA, TAP, BCA, and social players we have now. So what we're all really talking about is how can we help the pro player make enough money and be showcased on TV. IMO 8-ball would HAVE to be the game to promote. The pros don't care what game it is if they can make a living playing it. The IPT was 8-ball and I didn't here them bit**** about that...they all came running to it.

Over the next few weeks I'm going to try to get one of the local high schools, colleges, or even a hobbists with TV equiptment and whatever other stuff is needed for produce one of the pro or semi-pro tour stops in Florida to put on local access cable channels. I believe if I can get any of the above to do one or two of them that other states would follow. It's a small step but if TV saw that pool could be at least as good as poker who knows how will turn out. Johnnyt

worriedbeef
02-02-2008, 03:37 PM
OK......I'm going to have to say something.......How can we promote the game when everyone talks about 9-ball,10 ball,14.1,straight pool,etc.Sure there is 50 million people that play pool,but of that 50 million,45 million play 8 BALL.So please everyone,if pool is going to be a mega money making sport it HAS TO BE presented with the MASSES in mind.
How can you possibly get huge sponsors or attraction from the every day social pool player when all you see are games you have never played or heard of ?
I know what all the die hard pool players are going to think of this, BUT its time to wake up,pool will never be what pool should be until the pro's,the industry,the overall format switches over to 8 BALL.And Until that,people won't give a rats ass.

trouble is eight ball is boring as hell to watch. it's similar to straight pool in that played well (good patterns), it looks easy and every shot's a hanger.

Holly
02-02-2008, 03:44 PM
I don't see why you are so vehemently opposed to this sentence, it is pretty benign in it's context.

SJDinPHX
02-02-2008, 03:46 PM
Nobody wantI have been reading over this thread quite intensely. I see many ideas that involve TV and outside sponsorships. For those in that line of thought there is 1 BIG problem.s us. Pool that is.

The big question that nobody seems to understand is HOW DO WE GET FROM HERE TO THERE (there being getting corporate sponsorships)

You need to understand that many promoters have tried and they have all failed to get and keep large outside industry sponsors. The basic problem as I see it is that we do not have much to sell them.

I have a plan to change that. It's a real good one and it will work if it gets off the ground with the funding from the BCA.

Instead of 1 promoter offering 1 TV event or 7 for that matter my system will offer large corporate sponsors nationwide advertising on hundreds of events each year which will include television, Internet, local distribution and on and on. After talking and negotiation with outside industry corporations I have found this is exactly what they want and are willing to pay for. They need large numbers and proof that those numbers exist.

In addition, I took what they (corporate sponsors) want and combined it what we have and what we (WE being the billiard industry and sport) need and put it in a simple little package that is easy to understand and sell to everyone.

The big problem with my and everyones else's ideas that would help the sport lies in the funding and longevity to get thing rolling. It's easy to talk about TV events but it is extremely difficult to come up with the $150-175K need to produce the events.

My plan puts all of the factors into play. Its a plan that I have been working on for 4 solid years and it will take up to the next 5 years to fully implement so it can sustain its self.

One of the main goals of the system I am proposing calls for cooperation among many in the billiard industry including players, rooms, pro-shops, manufactures, the fans and the promoters. Through this cooperation we can streamline our effirts to compliment each other and build our sport to the highest possible level.

For the next few months until the BCA Trade Expo in June I ask that everyone here work together for this one goal and only this one goal. If it is achieved, everyone in our sport will share in the benefits.

Mj
Mike, I admire your efforts at promoting our sport. That is your job as
a promoter for your employee (Viking Cues).However to slam some other
orginization, who also is trying to work in a positive direction is very
counter-productive on your part.

MikeJanis
02-02-2008, 03:49 PM
Nobody want
Mike, I admire your efforts at promoting our sport. That is your job as
a promoter for your employee (Viking Cues).However to slam some other
orginization, who also is trying to work in a positive direction is very
counter-productive on your part.

I'm not slamming any other organization in that post. What are you talking about ?


Correction...Viking Cues is not my employer or employee. They are the title sponsor of my company that bids the highest to get that right. I am the owner of 8002007665, Inc. dba, Mike Janis Productions which manages and promotes The Viking Cue 9-Ball Tour Mj

bfdlad
02-02-2008, 04:38 PM
OK......I'm going to have to say something.......How can we promote the game when everyone talks about 9-ball,10 ball,14.1,straight pool,etc.Sure there is 50 million people that play pool,but of that 50 million,45 million play 8 BALL.So please everyone,if pool is going to be a mega money making sport it HAS TO BE presented with the MASSES in mind.
How can you possibly get huge sponsors or attraction from the every day social pool player when all you see are games you have never played or heard of ?
I know what all the die hard pool players are going to think of this, BUT its time to wake up,pool will never be what pool should be until the pro's,the industry,the overall format switches over to 8 BALL.And Until that,people won't give a rats ass.
I think that the 9-ball started tobe the game was to please the TV viewers to begin with more action and more exciting.

!Smorgass Bored
02-02-2008, 04:48 PM
I am the owner of 8002007665, Inc. dba, Mike Janis Productions Mj


AHA !
A non-profit organization.

Doug
( I suspected as much ) :)

MikeJanis
02-02-2008, 05:04 PM
AHA !
A non-profit organization.

Doug
( I suspected as much ) :)

It's only been no-profit since 1994. I figured I would just go with the flow.

RunoutalloverU
02-02-2008, 05:10 PM
IMO you have to have a path like in every other major american sport, to becoming a pro. And then like in other major american individual sports have seeding. Is SVB the best player in the world...probably not, I don't know. You have to start with kids (have something like a little leauge), then you have to have it in college just like basketball, baseball or football. Then have a minor leauge something like what Mr. Janis is doing. Then....(are you ready for this?) have ONE yes ONE, governing body of pool. You can have different games with different rankings, but ONE body of professional pool, you have a ladies side, and a mens side. Thats it I dont think anything else in america will legitamize the game except for this model.

bfdlad
02-02-2008, 05:11 PM
AHA !
A non-profit organization.

Doug
( I suspected as much ) :)
Other than non profit being able to get different types of sponsorship, i.e GM won't give you a car for prizes unless you are non profit. and the fact that they give a % to charity, what would be the issue of them being a non profit? I guess I'm not sure about the "AHA I thought as much" comment. Does that somehow have a negative to it? Please let me know.

SJDinPHX
02-02-2008, 05:13 PM
MJ I think he's refering yo the "Firing squad" remark. If he is, I agree.

Fast Lenny
02-02-2008, 05:30 PM
Im sorry to say but many people on here are fairly clueless about how to better promote and make the sport more appealing and bring money into it,doing the same things decade after decade and going nowhere isnt very bright.From my observations i am thinking the best way to make pool more publicly appealing and bigger in the future is to start with the youth,they are the future.I have been pondering why there is not an instructor or teacher in every pool room to teach young kids to play.In alot of overseas places the youth are taught at a young age and they grow with the game.The marketing of alot of big businesses has directed money in advertising to teens and also kids, look at the tobacco companies,they arent dummies.I mean look at a Hess truck geared towards kids,there are alot of things companies do to promote their business to people at an early age.I think over in Asia this approach to nurturing the developement of billiards in their youth is what is starting to seperate them from the the US and also the world as a whole.It would be a great idea if poolrooms had a day perhaps on Saturday or Sunday in the beginning of the day when the room is slow where the kids could come in and play and be taught by the room owner or house pro for a few hours while they are there.I think it would get alot of kids away from the video games and whatnot and also bring them into the sport young,its a new market where as the kids grow they keep buying and supporting pool as adults.Imagine walking into a poolroom tommorow and there are 15-20 kids there learning pool, the room owners charge $5 a head for say 3-4 hours of them playing,its a good way to make some money during the slow daytime period and the kids will grow up and be customers for your future,you need to be thinking longterm.Alot of people who are parents and are in leagues and tournaments would probably like this idea and would help out and bring there kids in and also be able to play alittle themselves.I think doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity IMO,you have to try something new.I would like to see instructors,room owners and house pros try this and see how rewarding it will be plus it will make you money down the line.If i was able to instruct then i would donate my time to this but i dont feel i am qualified to teach but perhaps down the road i will try to become a certified instructor. :)

!Smorgass Bored
02-02-2008, 05:38 PM
Other than non profit being able to get different types of sponsorship, i.e GM won't give you a car for prizes unless you are non profit. and the fact that they give a % to charity, what would be the issue of them being a non profit? I guess I'm not sure about the "AHA I thought as much" comment. Does that somehow have a negative to it? Please let me know.


It was a humorous shot at Mike Janis, because of his traveling, clothing, laundry, rooms, meals, expenses, playing in tournaments, gambling and an occassional drink or two, etc., that he's not making any money. Get it ?
Doug

Edited to add: You may enjoy AZB much more if you simply put me on Ignore...... others do. (imo) :)


.

MikeJanis
02-02-2008, 05:38 PM
MJ I think he's refering yo the "Firing squad" remark. If he is, I agree.


JDinPHX, either I am confused or you (JDinPHX) are misrepresenting what you posted earlier when quoting me in post #42 of this thread.

Now you state he's refering to when I think it should read "you are refering to" or "I am refering to" . Either way, on post #42 you qouted something I wrote then you wrote that "However to slam some other
orginization, who also is trying to work in a positive direction is very
counter-productive on your part."

Which at no point in time did I slam any person or organization in that post or this thread. Which is very misleading on your part and hints towards making inuendo's with no representation which I believe is punishable by being put "in front of a firing squad" LOL :) :) :)

Anyway, snce I now reveived your PM I know what you were talking about but nobody else does. So lets tell'em. In your post #42 you wer actualling talking about another thread entirely.

Is that correct ? I'm pretty sure it is.

For the record, I am not slamming the WPA in that thread but I am slamming the person(s) that suggested those rules. My tour, the Viking Tour has been playing under the WPA rules since 1994 or so. I even wrote the WPA thanking them for providing the WPA 9-ball rules.


Mj

MikeJanis
02-02-2008, 05:41 PM
It was a humorous shot at Mike Janis, because of his traveling, clothing, laundry, rooms, meals, expenses, playing in tournaments, gambling and an occassional drink or two, etc., that he's not making any money. Get it ?
Doug

I got it. Doug, can I eat and stay at your house when i do my next FL event ? I need to save the dough because the BCA BOD meeting / proposal is setting me a little behind at the moment and I need to utilize every resource I can get my hands on to make it work.

Whatcha say ? I'll just eat sammiches all week.

RunoutalloverU
02-02-2008, 05:47 PM
I hate when people post after me and say what I said while in the same breath acting like they were the first ones to say it I mean seriously wtf.

Fast Lenny
02-02-2008, 05:52 PM
I hate when people post after me and say what I said while in the same breath acting like they were the first ones to say it I mean seriously wtf.
If your referring to me then i went more in depth into the subject and also didnt read your post,if you really want to get into then look back through my post and you will see months back i brought this up and perhaps you read it but as usual its overlooked because people prefer to do the same thing and talk about a gambling show,sorry i dont think it will take off unless you have a large audience which pool doesnt have,but years from now perhaps that audience will be there if we start with kids. :)

bfdlad
02-02-2008, 05:53 PM
It was a humorous shot at Mike Janis, because of his traveling, clothing, laundry, rooms, meals, expenses, playing in tournaments, gambling and an occassional drink or two, etc., that he's not making any money. Get it ?
Doug

Edited to add: You may enjoy AZB much more if you simply put me on Ignore...... others do. (imo) :)


.
It was obviously an inside joke that I have no idea of. I will NOT put you on ignor. I am always willing to learn from anyone and I really was asking the question as I saw it and not being a ass. Again I will not put you on ignor as I think from time to time you make sense, you do get on my nerves a bit but I have to keep all my options open for any knowledge I can get. You may want to put me on ignor though because I will keep asking questions and if they seem dumb Sorry.

bfdlad
02-02-2008, 05:58 PM
If your referring to me then i went more in depth into the subject and also didnt read your post,if you really want to get into then look back through my post and you will see months back i brought this up and perhaps you read it but as usual its overlooked because people prefer to do the same thing and talk about a gambling show,sorry i dont think it will take off unless you have a large audience which pool doesnt have,but years from now perhaps that audience will be there if we start with kids. :)
Lenny, Lets talk to Kolby's about doing something on a weekend. I will give it a shot and help however I can. I can't teach though. Let me know I agree and it will feel good to do something like that .

MikeJanis
02-02-2008, 06:03 PM
,but years from now perhaps that audience will be there if we start with kids. :)

Are you familiar with the "BEF" Billiard Education Foundation ?

http://www.billiardeducation.org/


Pool in School - http://www.billiardeducation.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=39

!Smorgass Bored
02-02-2008, 06:11 PM
It was obviously an inside joke that I have no idea of. I will NOT put you on ignore. I am always willing to learn from anyone and I really was asking the question as I saw it and not being a ass. Again I will not put you on ignore as I think from time to time you make sense, you do get on my nerves a bit but I have to keep all my options open for any knowledge I can get. You may want to put me on ignore though because I will keep asking questions and if they seem dumb Sorry.


No, I don't think you're questions are dumb, I just think I'm not to your liking. You see, you just joined AZB this month and Mike and I (and 30-50 others) go back 8-10 years on these boards (AZB & RSB). I try NOT to make my posts sound like inside jokes and I 'thought' my previous post was rather self explanatory, but apparently I was mistaken.
Doug
( Btw, I doubt seriously if you will EVER get any knowledge from me.... I just don't have it in me ) :)

Fast Lenny
02-02-2008, 06:15 PM
Are you familiar with the "BEF" Billiard Education Foundation ?

http://www.billiardeducation.org/


Pool in School - http://www.billiardeducation.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=39
Very cool Mike,i hadnt really looked into but knew there were organizations doing good things.I feel its the right direction for the sport and could be done nationwide,it all starts with the rooms doing this which isnt that hard to do. :)

JoeyA
02-02-2008, 06:16 PM
Please use this forum to express positive ideas for assisting the growth of professional pool in America.

One of the most important things that I think is needed is a committee to form a PROFESSIONAL BILLIARD CODE OF CONDUCT. To the best of my knowledge there has never been a policy and procedure or even a written recommended guideline for professional pool player's to read, learn and follow. If there are no written word to determine how a professional pool player should carry themselves, it is left up to the individual to determine how they present themselves to the public.

Professional pool players need to learn what is needed of them, expected of them and what must be done by them at all times while in the public's eye. The most important time is that of tournament time. I have the greatest respect for professional pool players but many do not know how to act in public, how they should treat fans, the value of providing accurate information about themselves to the media and public in general. No one has ever taught them how they should treat amateur competitors who opt to compete against professional pool players.

Certain behavior should be expected from all. No; professional behavior should be demanded of all. The players have never had a dress code that was demanded of them. It has always been a guideline. If you have been at any of the professional tournaments in recent times, you will see players using their own judgment and style of clothing. When you see some of the greatest pool players in the world wearing clothing that is designed for hanging around the house at professional events and the management turns a blind eye toward some of the players, you know you have a problem. When a professional pool player is in the public's eye there should be certain guidelines for behavior. There should be a Code of Conduct that is not ambiguous and one that demands adherence to. This point should be made perfectly clear to all professional pool players.

We don't need to have professional poolplayers, playing pool in tuxedos and wearing Prada or Martin Dingman shoes but their should be a clearly written Code of Dress demanded of them at all times while they participate in a professional pool venue.

While at this point in time I have not done research on the subject, we should look to our European brothers in snooker for research into their code of conduct for their players. In fact, we should look anywhere and everywhere for advice on this subject because without it, individuals will be allowed to sully the image of professional pool we are trying to re-create.

The gist of this is that we need a written CODE OF CONDUCT detailing how players must act at pool tournaments, in public while attending any billiard industry event (even in pool rooms and other places where the industry congregates) and especially how they must dress while attending all professional billiard events.

No player can be allowed a pass on violating the dress code or bad behavior. Effective penalties designed to modify behavior and dress should be handed out without discrimination.

This PROFESSIONAL POCKET BILLIARD CODE OF CONDUCT should be in written booklet form, available for download on the Internet and it should be concise but very clear as to what is expected of the professional players.

JoeyA (volunteering to help if needed)

Fast Lenny
02-02-2008, 06:17 PM
Lenny, Lets talk to Kolby's about doing something on a weekend. I will give it a shot and help however I can. I can't teach though. Let me know I agree and it will feel good to do something like that .
Im all for it Mark and look forward to your next event also.I think Saturday during the daytime would be good,maybe if i can find some people willing to volunteer there time there i will make some fliers and get the ball rolling. :)

bfdlad
02-02-2008, 06:18 PM
No, I don't think you're questions are dumb, I just think I'm not to your liking. You see, you just joined AZB this month and Mike and I (and 30-50 others) go back 8-10 years on these boards (AZB & RSB). I try NOT to make my posts sound like inside jokes and I 'thought' my previous post was rather self explanatory, but apparently I was mistaken.
Doug
( Btw, I doubt seriously if you will EVER get any knowledge from me.... I just don't have it in me ) :)
So I'm the new kid?? thats why you give me a hard time? I am still willing to learn from you or anyone else. I'm sure you are a nice person just an ass to anyone who has not been here too long. I will work my way in and you will end up loving me. :)

bfdlad
02-02-2008, 06:23 PM
Im all for it Mark and look forward to your next event also.I think Saturday during the daytime would be good,maybe if i can find some people willing to volunteer there time there i will make some fliers and get the ball rolling. :)
The flyers etc are easy. Getting a real teacher who knows how to teach kids is the thing. I agree. it is a start and we need to get some other things making awareness at the local level. I'm not sounding my own horn but I am trying with just bringing attention with the events. I met 3 people the other night who said they don't even play but have seen Johnny on TV so they wanted to see it live. Pretty cool for a start. i'm trying to think who is a good teacher that I can get to help. a young one maybe so the kids can relate more.. mmm.

MikeJanis
02-02-2008, 06:35 PM
One of the most important things that I think is needed is a committee to form a PROFESSIONAL BILLIARD CODE OF CONDUCT. To the best of my knowledge there has never been a policy and procedure or even a written recommended guideline for professional pool player's to read, learn and follow. If there are no written word to determine how a professional pool player should carry themselves, it is left up to the individual to determine how they present themselves to the public.

Professional pool players need to learn what is needed of them, expected of them and what must be done by them at all times while in the public's eye. The most important time is that of tournament time. I have the greatest respect for professional pool players but many do not know how to act in public, how they should treat fans, the value of providing accurate information about themselves to the media and public in general. No one has ever taught them how they should treat amateur competitors who opt to compete against professional pool players.

Certain behavior should be expected from all. No; professional behavior should be demanded of all. The players have never had a dress code that was demanded of them. It has always been a guideline. If you have been at any of the professional tournaments in recent times, you will see players using their own judgment and style of clothing. When you see some of the greatest pool players in the world wearing clothing that is designed for hanging around the house at professional events and the management turns a blind eye toward some of the players, you know you have a problem. When a professional pool player is in the public's eye there should be certain guidelines for behavior. There should be a Code of Conduct that is not ambiguous and one that demands adherence to. This point should be made perfectly clear to all professional pool players.

We don't need to have professional poolplayers, playing pool in tuxedos and wearing Prada or Martin Dingman shoes but their should be a clearly written Code of Dress demanded of them at all times while they participate in a professional pool venue.

While at this point in time I have not done research on the subject, we should look to our European brothers in snooker for research into their code of conduct for their players. In fact, we should look anywhere and everywhere for advice on this subject because without it, individuals will be allowed to sully the image of professional pool we are trying to re-create.

The gist of this is that we need a written CODE OF CONDUCT detailing how players must act at pool tournaments, in public while attending any billiard industry event (even in pool rooms and other places where the industry congregates) and especially how they must dress while attending all professional billiard events.

No player can be allowed a pass on violating the dress code or bad behavior. Effective penalties designed to modify behavior and dress should be handed out without discrimination.

This PROFESSIONAL POCKET BILLIARD CODE OF CONDUCT should be in written booklet form, available for download on the Internet and it should be concise but very clear as to what is expected of the professional players.

JoeyA (volunteering to help if needed)

JoeyA, if I was in a position to delegate my authority (which I am not, according to my Wife) I would put you in charge of writing this book. It's a great idea. I really think you should and can do it. You have enough knowledge and experience to get it going on the right track. I am positive you could get suggestions from many others to help with the project.

What say you ?

steveharn
02-02-2008, 06:46 PM
Get the smoke out!!!! My friend and I took Friday afternoon off to play some pool. We seldom do this but the timing was right and we took off. We drove 45 miles, first to a nice eating place and had a late lunch. Sliced BarBque mutton for me and the buffet was absolutely delicious. Then on to the new pool room with Diamond tables 9' and 7'ers. We played on a 7' because it's easier for us older folks and they seem to be the most popular tables in our area. We enjoyed playing alot, only 50 cents a game, very affordable, I would have liked to stay all night. However, that old culprit, the cigarette, smoked us out, there were probably fifteen people in the room, not playing pool, we were the only two for awhile, I would guess 10 smokers, most of them sitting down drinking coffee and smoking. Our clothes were soaked from the fumes, almost like being in a gas chamber, hate to think about our lungs. I left my coat in the truck on purpose because when I saw it was a taven I suspected as much. When I got back to the truck I took my sweater off and threw it in the back of the pickup and put my coat on over my t-shirt. When I got home I changed my clothes and took the smoke filled ones outside to air and then washed them. The morale of the story is that, unfortanetly, I will not go back to play pool there again. To get more people to play and get interested in the game, kids as well as grownups, the smoke has got to go. I also think the pros should refuse to play anywhere that is not smoke-free(DO YOU HEAR ME MIKE?) We need rooms where everyone can come and have fun, that will attract the kind of attention that pool needs.

SJDinPHX
02-02-2008, 06:53 PM
I have said this before, the sport needs characters as well as tv. Earl is a character. Please take the time and go to youtube.com in your serch type in "When Snooker Ruled The World" it will take 1 hour to watch the whole thing but it is in 6 parts. So obviously look for part one. then the rest will show up. This shows you how Snooker began and how it became popular. Did you know that when they began Pot Black the forst snooker show it was broadcast in black and white. I mean COME ON if snooker in black and white can make it we have a shot right????
Not until we organize! That hasn't happened so far. Try and get two
pool players to agree on anything......let alone 3 or 4 hundred.
Trust me it is a thankless task.

bfdlad
02-02-2008, 06:55 PM
Get the smoke out!!!! My friend and I took Friday afternoon off to play some pool. We seldom do this but the timing was right and we took off. We drove 45 miles, first to a nice eating place and had a late lunch. Sliced BarBque mutton for me and the buffet was absolutely delicious. Then on to the new pool room with Diamond tables 9' and 7'ers. We played on a 7' because it's easier for us older folks and they seem to be the most popular tables in our area. We enjoyed playing alot, only 50 cents a game, very affordable, I would have liked to stay all night. However, that old culprit, the cigarette, smoked us out, there were probably fifteen people in the room, not playing pool, we were the only two for awhile, I would guess 10 smokers, most of them sitting down drinking coffee and smoking. Our clothes were soaked from the fumes, almost like being in a gas chamber, hate to think about our lungs. I left my coat in the truck on purpose because when I saw it was a taven I suspected as much. When I got back to the truck I took my sweater off and threw it in the back of the pickup and put my coat on over my t-shirt. When I got home I changed my clothes and took the smoke filled ones outside to air and then washed them. The morale of the story is that, unfortanetly, I will not go back to play pool there again. To get more people to play and get interested in the game, kids as well as grownups, the smoke has got to go. I also think the pros should refuse to play anywhere that is not smoke-free(DO YOU HEAR ME MIKE?) We need rooms where everyone can come and have fun, that will attract the kind of attention that pool needs.
Steve, I am a smoker and I live in Arizona. Not too long ago they passed the no smoking law in ALL bars, restaurants etc. Two things, I do not like smoke around in a bar or anywhere so even though I smoke I like it much better without it. But the bars etc say they are losing customers as a result. Not sure what to make of that, as I certainly don't want people to lose money. Maybe in your area it is different obviously, but for the youth camps they should make the exception and sau no smoking inside between this time and this time. The pro's feed their families on what they make from pool and if they see a chance to make money even though it is smokey they will and saying I am not playing unless you are smoke free is not an option for them. They may not like it but they also don't like not making $$$

okinawa77
02-02-2008, 06:56 PM
Please use this forum to express positive ideas for assisting the growth of professional pool in America.

Jerry,

I think to assist the growth of professional pool in America. We need to grow on the youth and amateur level.

I think creating a larger pool job market for people may get them out of an office cubicle, and into pool halls and/or pool industry related jobs that promote the sport.

I would love to quit my job as a semiconductor equipment engineer, and find a job in the pool industry that will pay just as well.

I frequently travel to Japan for work, and it is really hard to find a pool hall. Most of the Japanese rarely play pool. I just went to an entertainment building, it was a bowling and gaming center: 3 floors of gaming (arcade); 3 floors of bowling; and 1 floor with darts, billiards, and karaoke. It seems to me that everyone was more interested in everything else, than the pool tables. And most of the people playing were young people.

In Japan, it is more evident that jobs come first, and it leaves little time for anything else. So, during weekdays (9-5), the pool halls are empty...other than a few people that may have the day off from work...or youths.

It is the same in the U.S. Pool Halls usually don't open until noon, and that is early. Business is very slow until people get out of work. How do we get people in the pool halls during normal business hours? <See idea #1>

So, if we can make a large, widespread job market for the pool industry, not just for pro players and large pool manufacturing products, that would definitely assist in the growth of professional pool.

So, the question is....how do we grow in the pool job market.
Here are some of my ideas:
1. Pool hall growth: Maybe with 5 star restaurant quality food-lease the kitchen to a catering company. This reduces overhead cost, and will create more jobs as more pool halls are introduced. Partnering with a catering company (or mini restaurant) may enable pool business start ups, as the initial start up investment can be too high for most prospective pool business people.
2. Higher revenue for pool instruction: At a local level, there are few instructors because the pay is low....for most this is a second job. In order to make this a primary job we need to find a way to convince players to pay more for instructions and/or get more student numbers of participation.
3. More attractions at Pro Events: How about having a super star band play music before, during intermission, and at the end of the event...to draw in more spectators? More spectators means for admissions collections and opportunities for purchases (booths that sell pool products) during the event.
4. More player interaction during Pro Events: I think the more entertaining TV events are the ones with 2 players that are friends, and talk to each other during the match. It shows that they are people with character, and creates a more friendly, relaxed atmosphere...even for the spectators. If 2 players are not talking at all, it's like watching robots. It seems dull, and non-entertaining.

These are just some ideas I had rolling around in my head.

Again, if I could replace my job with something in the pool industry, I would do it...in a heartbeat.

bfdlad
02-02-2008, 06:57 PM
Not until we organize! That hasn't happened so far. Try and get two
pool players to agree on anything......let alone 3 or 4 hundred.
Trust me it is a thankless task.
Good point, they all do agree on making $$ though. I think you see my point and I also see yours.

steveharn
02-02-2008, 06:58 PM
When you take that "First Step" then you start walking.

bfdlad
02-02-2008, 07:00 PM
When you take that "First Step" then you start walking.
We got that philosopher Niechie on here. I m not smart enough to spell that stuff let alone understand it. sorry mate,

SJDinPHX
02-02-2008, 07:02 PM
One of the most important things that I think is needed is a committee to form a PROFESSIONAL BILLIARD CODE OF CONDUCT. To the best of my knowledge there has never been a policy and procedure or even a written recommended guideline for professional pool player's to read, learn and follow. If there are no written word to determine how a professional pool player should carry themselves, it is left up to the individual to determine how they present themselves to the public.

Professional pool players need to learn what is needed of them, expected of them and what must be done by them at all times while in the public's eye. The most important time is that of tournament time. I have the greatest respect for professional pool players but many do not know how to act in public, how they should treat fans, the value of providing accurate information about themselves to the media and public in general. No one has ever taught them how they should treat amateur competitors who opt to compete against professional pool players.

Certain behavior should be expected from all. No; professional behavior should be demanded of all. The players have never had a dress code that was demanded of them. It has always been a guideline. If you have been at any of the professional tournaments in recent times, you will see players using their own judgment and style of clothing. When you see some of the greatest pool players in the world wearing clothing that is designed for hanging around the house at professional events and the management turns a blind eye toward some of the players, you know you have a problem. When a professional pool player is in the public's eye there should be certain guidelines for behavior. There should be a Code of Conduct that is not ambiguous and one that demands adherence to. This point should be made perfectly clear to all professional pool players.

We don't need to have professional poolplayers, playing pool in tuxedos and wearing Prada or Martin Dingman shoes but their should be a clearly written Code of Dress demanded of them at all times while they participate in a professional pool venue.

While at this point in time I have not done research on the subject, we should look to our European brothers in snooker for research into their code of conduct for their players. In fact, we should look anywhere and everywhere for advice on this subject because without it, individuals will be allowed to sully the image of professional pool we are trying to re-create.

The gist of this is that we need a written CODE OF CONDUCT detailing how players must act at pool tournaments, in public while attending any billiard industry event (even in pool rooms and other places where the industry congregates) and especially how they must dress while attending all professional billiard events.

No player can be allowed a pass on violating the dress code or bad behavior. Effective penalties designed to modify behavior and dress should be handed out without discrimination.

This PROFESSIONAL POCKET BILLIARD CODE OF CONDUCT should be in written booklet form, available for download on the Internet and it should be concise but very clear as to what is expected of the professional players.

JoeyA (volunteering to help if needed)
Absolutey, good thinking. But first we need a professioal player org.
to deal with these matters. So far it has not happened!!!!

steveharn
02-02-2008, 07:05 PM
We got that philosopher Niechie on here. I m not smart enough to spell that stuff let alone understand it. sorry mate,

If you want pool to grow provide an enviorment where it can. Right now it's being "choked out" by the smoke!

JB Cases
02-02-2008, 07:14 PM
No, I don't think you're questions are dumb, I just think I'm not to your liking. You see, you just joined AZB this month and Mike and I (and 30-50 others) go back 8-10 years on these boards (AZB & RSB). I try NOT to make my posts sound like inside jokes and I 'thought' my previous post was rather self explanatory, but apparently I was mistaken.
Doug
( Btw, I doubt seriously if you will EVER get any knowledge from me.... I just don't have it in me ) :)

"it ain't no fun if you have to 'splain em"

DW - circa 1998

bfdlad
02-02-2008, 07:17 PM
If you want pool to grow provide an enviorment where it can. Right now it's being "choked out" by the smoke!
Steve i understand but rember for every action there is a reaction ( I just looked that one up) I' am not saying I disagree but there is a price to pay for the pool rooms that have either the laws or stop smoking in their bar themselves. If it's the law the custmers get past it but still have a problem with it. If they do it independantly the room down the street will get all the smoker business ya know what I mean? I think that the kids are a part of the big plan but not all of it. the other moving parts have to come together also to make the youger end get involved I agree but the current adults need Pool Schools too and want to play. So we are back to TV again and charecters. This is a very tough task that takes alot of time, and energy. Believe me I know, and the problem is getting a just a few people in each town willing to focus their time on this. Now they lose $$ because it will affect their business or their job. I lose money every month on trying to do good things for the biz. I know eventually I may get paid but not everyone can afford to take that hit. I am not trying to be negative I think that this thread could be on the right track, just very hard to get done in all aspects.

mnorwood
02-02-2008, 07:29 PM
1. Start high school pool programs.
2. Make pool an NCAA sport.

Got to build your base.

SJDinPHX
02-02-2008, 07:55 PM
Get the smoke out!!!! My friend and I took Friday afternoon off to play some pool. We seldom do this but the timing was right and we took off. We drove 45 miles, first to a nice eating place and had a late lunch. Sliced BarBque mutton for me and the buffet was absolutely delicious. Then on to the new pool room with Diamond tables 9' and 7'ers. We played on a 7' because it's easier for us older folks and they seem to be the most popular tables in our area. We enjoyed playing alot, only 50 cents a game, very affordable, I would have liked to stay all night. However, that old culprit, the cigarette, smoked us out, there were probably fifteen people in the room, not playing pool, we were the only two for awhile, I would guess 10 smokers, most of them sitting down drinking coffee and smoking. Our clothes were soaked from the fumes, almost like being in a gas chamber, hate to think about our lungs. I left my coat in the truck on purpose because when I saw it was a taven I suspected as much. When I got back to the truck I took my sweater off and threw it in the back of the pickup and put my coat on over my t-shirt. When I got home I changed my clothes and took the smoke filled ones outside to air and then washed them. The morale of the story is that, unfortanetly, I will not go back to play pool there again. To get more people to play and get interested in the game, kids as well as grownups, the smoke has got to go. I also think the pros should refuse to play anywhere that is not smoke-free(DO YOU HEAR ME MIKE?) We need rooms where everyone can come and have fun, that will attract the kind of attention that pool needs.
I am NOT defending smoking...(however its the only thing I do real well)
Did you know that if you worked in any big downtown city, and walked
outside to go to lunch, you would inhale enough cancer causing
carcinogens to equal smoking a carton of cigarettes? But thats allright,
I'll keep paying the "sin tax" so all you non smokers can breath clean air.
If the taxes levied on smoking and drinking ceased today,our economy
would be in shambles (in other words,down the tubes) Why don't all the
tree huggers and clean air freaks realize this fact. All we want to do is
co-exist.

SJDinPHX
02-02-2008, 08:06 PM
Well said,easier said than done, but well said.

bfdlad
02-02-2008, 08:13 PM
I am NOT defending smoking...(however its the only thing I do real well)
Did you know that if you worked in any big downtown city, and walked
outside to go to lunch, you would inhale enough cancer causing
carcinogens to equal smoking a carton of cigarettes? But thats allright,
I'll keep paying the "sin tax" so all you non smokers can breath clean air.
If the taxes levied on smoking and drinking ceased today,our economy
would be in shambles (in other words,down the tubes) Why don't all the
tree huggers and clean air freaks realize this fact. All we want to do is
co-exist.
Here here, I have said that before. Do you know how many people would be out of work and the billions in advertising, taex on the tobacco company's, taxes on the emplyeees, the taxes to buy them etc if they go away, it will cost $1,000 per hour to play pool and your pinto would coat $100k

JoeyA
02-02-2008, 11:15 PM
JoeyA, if I was in a position to delegate my authority (which I am not, according to my Wife) I would put you in charge of writing this book. It's a great idea. I really think you should and can do it. You have enough knowledge and experience to get it going on the right track. I am positive you could get suggestions from many others to help with the project.

What say you ?

When you get the authority, send me my commission and give me the time frame in which it needs to be done and I will put it together with an all-volunteer team of people who will have obtain critical input from all around the globe. With the use of the Internet, I would put together a team who could utilize some of the technology at our disposal for maximum effectiveness. We have more than a few people in different areas right here on AZ who could make major contributions in this area. When the FAT CATS get off some of that cash they have been holding on to, we will get them to front us some conference money for a meeting at one of the big tournaments like the Viking Tour or some other. :) :)
JoeyA

SJDinPHX
02-02-2008, 11:17 PM
Here here, I have said that before. Do you know how many people would be out of work and the billions in advertising, taex on the tobacco company's, taxes on the emplyeees, the taxes to buy them etc if they go away, it will cost $1,000 per hour to play pool and your pinto would coat $100k
Well said bfdlad, Let all the clean air people move to the "Garden of Eden"
where all is pure and without any imperfections. If there were such
a place I'd go there myself so they would quit ragging on me!

SJDinPHX
02-02-2008, 11:47 PM
Excellent idea JoeyA, Give me a holler, I can twist some arms.

SJDinPHX
02-02-2008, 11:52 PM
Jerry,

I think to assist the growth of professional pool in America. We need to grow on the youth and amateur level.

I think creating a larger pool job market for people may get them out of an office cubicle, and into pool halls and/or pool industry related jobs that promote the sport.

I would love to quit my job as a semiconductor equipment engineer, and find a job in the pool industry that will pay just as well.

I frequently travel to Japan for work, and it is really hard to find a pool hall. Most of the Japanese rarely play pool. I just went to an entertainment building, it was a bowling and gaming center: 3 floors of gaming (arcade); 3 floors of bowling; and 1 floor with darts, billiards, and karaoke. It seems to me that everyone was more interested in everything else, than the pool tables. And most of the people playing were young people.

In Japan, it is more evident that jobs come first, and it leaves little time for anything else. So, during weekdays (9-5), the pool halls are empty...other than a few people that may have the day off from work...or youths.

It is the same in the U.S. Pool Halls usually don't open until noon, and that is early. Business is very slow until people get out of work. How do we get people in the pool halls during normal business hours? <See idea #1>

So, if we can make a large, widespread job market for the pool industry, not just for pro players and large pool manufacturing products, that would definitely assist in the growth of professional pool.

So, the question is....how do we grow in the pool job market.
Here are some of my ideas:
1. Pool hall growth: Maybe with 5 star restaurant quality food-lease the kitchen to a catering company. This reduces overhead cost, and will create more jobs as more pool halls are introduced. Partnering with a catering company (or mini restaurant) may enable pool business start ups, as the initial start up investment can be too high for most prospective pool business people.
2. Higher revenue for pool instruction: At a local level, there are few instructors because the pay is low....for most this is a second job. In order to make this a primary job we need to find a way to convince players to pay more for instructions and/or get more student numbers of participation.
3. More attractions at Pro Events: How about having a super star band play music before, during intermission, and at the end of the event...to draw in more spectators? More spectators means for admissions collections and opportunities for purchases (booths that sell pool products) during the event.
4. More player interaction during Pro Events: I think the more entertaining TV events are the ones with 2 players that are friends, and talk to each other during the match. It shows that they are people with character, and creates a more friendly, relaxed atmosphere...even for the spectators. If 2 players are not talking at all, it's like watching robots. It seems dull, and non-entertaining.

These are just some ideas I had rolling around in my head.

Again, if I could replace my job with something in the pool industry, I would do it...in a heartbeat.
You have some excellent observations. Please do not give up on what
we are trying to accomplish. We need guys like you.
Frank Burgess in Denver, the propieter of the Table Steaks franchise,
has created exactly what you are espousing. Give him a call.

Jaden
02-03-2008, 12:32 AM
Here here, I have said that before. Do you know how many people would be out of work and the billions in advertising, taex on the tobacco company's, taxes on the emplyeees, the taxes to buy them etc if they go away, it will cost $1,000 per hour to play pool and your pinto would coat $100k

If smoking didn't exist, not only would all of that tax money still be put into the economy, so would all of the profits that the tobacco companies make. That is an idiotic statement. The money would be spent on other things and help the economy the same or better than it does in tobacco. I'm not saying to take away tobacco. I just don't want you blosing it in my face. I used to not mind but now that some of the states have instituted the smoking bans, it's hard on us that aren't used to it anymore and truthfully, we shouldn't have to deal with it. If you want to smoke, go outside, that doesn't stop you from being able to smoke, but you're smoking can prevent some of us from enjoying a nice night out at the pool hall.

MikeJanis
02-03-2008, 01:10 AM
When you get the authority, send me my commission and give me the time frame in which it needs to be done and I will put it together with an all-volunteer team of people who will have obtain critical input from all around the globe. With the use of the Internet, I would put together a team who could utilize some of the technology at our disposal for maximum effectiveness. We have more than a few people in different areas right here on AZ who could make major contributions in this area. When the FAT CATS get off some of that cash they have been holding on to, we will get them to front us some conference money for a meeting at one of the big tournaments like the Viking Tour or some other. :) :)
JoeyA

Joey, if you write it well enough your commission will be immortality. I give you permission as a parent (will that work) I think its the highest most important authority I have so it should be ok.

You already seem to have an idea of what the guide book should say, now all you have to do is put in in writing. I'd bet you could hav an outline done in 1-2 days. Once you get it together start a thread here on AZ. Maybe put in in the test forum to keep it a secret then invite respected players and industry members from AZ to review and add suggestion at their convenience. After that I would say it would take about a week or two to complete. It won't need published in book for because I am sure we/you could just put it on the net somewhere or everywhere. I would help out in any way I can.

Mj

SJDinPHX
02-03-2008, 01:10 AM
In the history of pool there has been a major resurgence after a hit movie about the game perhaps we need to produce the Hulster trilogy:rolleyes:
Great idea, but we need new characters. Paul Newman is in the early
stages of alzheimers and Tom Cruise is over the hill. I think it should
feature Ronnie Allen (his dementia has not progressed to pre alz yet) as Newman's character, and SVB as the young Cruise.
Sure to be a straight to DVD hit.

Island Drive
02-03-2008, 07:55 AM
Originally Posted by steveharn
When you take that "First Step" then you start walking.

We got that philosopher Niechie on here. I m not smart enough to spell that stuff let alone understand it. sorry mate,


:) :) :) :) :) :) :) Good one:p

SJDinPHX
02-03-2008, 08:44 AM
If smoking didn't exist, not only would all of that tax money still be put into the economy, so would all of the profits that the tobacco companies make. That is an idiotic statement. The money would be spent on other things and help the economy the same or better than it does in tobacco. I'm not saying to take away tobacco. I just don't want you blosing it in my face. I used to not mind but now that some of the states have instituted the smoking bans, it's hard on us that aren't used to it anymore and truthfully, we shouldn't have to deal with it. If you want to smoke, go outside, that doesn't stop you from being able to smoke, but you're smoking can prevent some of us from enjoying a nice night out at the pool hall.
What are you saying ? No tax money= O $ No cigs = O $ Profit for
tobacco industry........What money?...Where?....Huh?

whitewolf
02-03-2008, 09:18 AM
I think the main deterent to the success of pool is how expensive the tables are. We need Scotty to build us some super plastic slate. Somebody beam him down!

I think pool,snooker succeeded in England because of their LIFESTLYE. After work, I can envision a far greater majority of them going to pubs. Besides women and beer, snooker was the perfect sport for them.

In the US, if tables were super cheap and had some quality, it would be an incentive for golf courses to build extentions to their clubhouses. Then we would be simulating somewhat the European culture with the pub atmosphere. As it stands now, most golfers finish 18 and rush home to their wives.

Other than those variables, I believe the APA and other leagues is going to be our salvation in the long term. It will just take time, and if pool tables were cheaper this would accelerate this process much faster.

JoeyA
02-03-2008, 09:32 AM
Joey, if you write it well enough your commission will be immortality. I give you permission as a parent (will that work) I think its the highest most important authority I have so it should be ok.

You already seem to have an idea of what the guide book should say, now all you have to do is put in in writing. I'd bet you could hav an outline done in 1-2 days. Once you get it together start a thread here on AZ. Maybe put in in the test forum to keep it a secret then invite respected players and industry members from AZ to review and add suggestion at their convenience. After that I would say it would take about a week or two to complete. It won't need published in book for because I am sure we/you could just put it on the net somewhere or everywhere. I would help out in any way I can.

Mj

Is the governing body, that this would be written for The Billiard Congress of America?
JoeyA

MikeJanis
02-03-2008, 09:59 AM
Is the governing body, that this would be written for The Billiard Congress of America?
JoeyA


Joey, I don't think it would apply to any 1 specific body. If you write the book with due dilligence I am sure that every professional player and organization would adopt it or a form of it.

You would be writing this as a service to all man/woman kind that plays pool.

Mj

Scott Lee
02-03-2008, 10:13 AM
tap, tap, tap! AMEN!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

If you want to smoke, go outside, that doesn't stop you from being able to smoke, but you're smoking can prevent some of us from enjoying a nice night out at the pool hall.

JoeyA
02-03-2008, 11:38 AM
Joey, I don't think it would apply to any 1 specific body. If you write the book with due dilligence I am sure that every professional player and organization would adopt it or a form of it.

You would be writing this as a service to all man/woman kind that plays pool.

Mj

It's already in the works.
JoeyA

!Smorgass Bored
02-03-2008, 11:57 AM
It's already in the works.
JoeyA


Well, don't forget to include some bad language and SEX....that always sells. (imo)
Doug
( and remember to Autograph it ) :)

ceebee
02-03-2008, 11:59 AM
1. Start high school pool programs.
2. Make pool an NCAA sport.

Got to build your base.

There are some folks doing this NOW...
see>>> http://www.betterplaybilliards.org/

Jaden
02-03-2008, 12:07 PM
What are you saying ? No tax money= O $ No cigs = O $ Profit for
tobacco industry........What money?...Where?....Huh?

What I'm saying is that the lack of money being spent on cigarettes doesn't mean the money is gone. The people who would have been spending it on cigarettes would be spending it on other things. Those other thongs (oops freudian slip, J.k. typing slip) area part of the economy, ergo, there is no economic backlash from a lack of tobacco. Sure, there might not be as high taxes on those other things, but IMO the economy is better off with the money not going directly to taxes, but instead going into businesses and people's pockets rather than the antithesis of frugality that is the government. All of the things that people spend money on are a part of the economy. The only way that it could have an affect on our economy is if the majority of the money is spent on items developed outside of the US, but that is the fault of our government not raising tariffs on imports to protect American businesses and is outside the scope of this discussion.

Scottster
02-03-2008, 12:15 PM
is unsalvageable in my lifetime. (I am 33).

SJDinPHX
02-03-2008, 12:33 PM
What I'm saying is that the lack of money being spent on cigarettes doesn't mean the money is gone. The people who would have been spending it on cigarettes would be spending it on other things. Those other thongs (oops freudian slip, J.k. typing slip) area part of the economy, ergo, there is no economic backlash from a lack of tobacco. Sure, there might not be as high taxes on those other things, but IMO the economy is better off with the money not going directly to taxes, but instead going into businesses and people's pockets rather than the antithesis of frugality that is the government. All of the things that people spend money on are a part of the economy. The only way that it could have an affect on our economy is if the majority of the money is spent on items developed outside of the US, but that is the fault of our government not raising tariffs on imports to protect American businesses and is outside the scope of this discussion.
I see what you're saying Jaden. My point is that cigs and liquor are so
heavily taxed that an immediate cessation of that revenue would leave
our brain (sic) trust in Washington scrambling to replace said funds.
Which means that they would have to impose heavier taxes on
things maybe like THONGS etc. ha ha

Jaden
02-03-2008, 12:33 PM
is unsalvageable in my lifetime. (I am 33).

I do think that it is difficult to savlage and that it would take several conjunctive occurrences to do, but it is possible.

I personally feel there are a couple of ways to salvage or CREATE professional pool in America. What we need is a catalyst that will drive interest in pool and learning the advanced concepts of pool. I think that the best thing for longer term driving of public interest is a night time drama or comedy centered around a pool hall. Ala, Friends or Beverly Hills 90210. I think that a drama would be better and that a drama would have elements that would draw lots of people and like friends affects on viewers interest in meeting up at coffee houses, a drama focused in a pool hall would draw viewers to want to go to pool halls.

If there were little references to advanced knowledge and the thought that goes into advanced pool, it would also drive viewers to want to learn about pool as well. This would in turn have to coincide with an attempt at a nationwide tour with guest appearances from top performers on the show, as either road players that come in and trounce on one of the stars, etc. I could come up with so many storylines as I'm sure a lot of us could to drive a show like this for years.

The other thing I see as being able to bring pool back is a reality show. The problem with it is how do they determine what the prize would be and if it's money, you're going to see huslters and pro's wanting to get in on it, but maybe that's ok. I mean, the comedians on that top comedian reality show in many cases were professional comics, in fact I think all of them were. It's just a way to determine who the best one was as determined by VOTING, not winning. It also would give the general public a chance to get to know the characters and learn to like or dislike them. If the pros are competing in it and then they are later competing on TV, the public would have that personal connection and their choices of who to root for that I think is missing from pool on tv now. Sure those of us who watch have our favorites for various reasons, but a lot of the time we already have personal connections with them from either knowing them personally or having made or lost money on them betting from the rail.

Sorry for the long dissertation here,I just have mentioned the night time drama thing before with lack luster response and thought that I would be better off explaining it out a little further this time.

Snap9
02-03-2008, 04:51 PM
The first step is realizing why pool in America is at its current status. One word GREED. Greed from the pool manufactures and promoters have diminished the desire for a single combined entity. Competition between promoters have given the opportunity for a segregated venue within players compete. Opportunities for players to choose which organization to compete each weekend is the final outcome. Unity can never be realized by competing markets(aka the promoters) within this sport if cross contamination of rivaling regional tours exist.

Pool manufactures have no desire for sponsorship when it deals with actual monetary dispersement. Manufacturers would rather give product as they can use it at full manufacturers suggested retail price and use it as a tax write-off under advertising expenses. Now the manufacturers have pennies on the dollar into the product they are manufacturing. Manufacturers greed is holding back the expansion of our sport. Mike please don't use any of your tour endorsers as examples since they all provide you with product and not capital.

Professional(and i use this term loosely) pool players desire the same end result any pro football/soccer/tennis/golf/baseball player desires and that is MONEY. How do you get monetary sponsorship to have payouts for the players? First you must get organization(preferably a non-corrupt one). No manufacturer will sponsor an unorganized or corrupt venture.

Now to get sponsorship. Where to go? You have to start with billiard related manufacturers to monetarily sponsor the organization. Get the organization a strong structure based on these monetary sponsors. If you can not get inside billiard sponsors you will never get outside billiards sponsorship. Once everything is growning and has a great financial structure you can now look to expand by going to outside sponsorship. You get the first outside sponsor hooked hopefully it will begin the domino effect.

I will let you roll with that. There's more that can be done but this is just a rough outline of suggestions.

Jaden
02-03-2008, 05:00 PM
The first step is realizing why pool in America is at its current status. One word GREED. Greed from the pool manufactures and promoters have diminished the desire for a single combined entity. Competition between promoters have given the opportunity for a segregated venue within players compete. Opportunities for players to choose which organization to compete each weekend is the final outcome. Unity can never be realized by competing markets(aka the promoters) within this sport if cross contamination of rivaling regional tours exist.

Pool manufactures have no desire for sponsorship when it deals with actual monetary dispersement. Manufacturers would rather give product as they can use it at full manufacturers suggested retail price and use it as a tax write-off under advertising expenses. Now the manufacturers have pennies on the dollar into the product they are manufacturing. Manufacturers greed is holding back the expansion of our sport. Mike please don't use any of your tour endorsers as examples since they all provide you with product and not capital.

Professional(and i use this term loosely) pool players desire the same end result any pro football/soccer/tennis/golf/baseball player desires and that is MONEY. How do you get monetary sponsorship to have payouts for the players? First you must get organization(preferably a non-corrupt one). No manufacturer will sponsor an unorganized or corrupt venture.

Now to get sponsorship. Where to go? You have to start with billiard related manufacturers to monetarily sponsor the organization. Get the organization a strong structure based on these monetary sponsors. If you can not get inside billiard sponsors you will never get outside billiards sponsorship. Once everything is growning and has a great financial structure you can now look to expand by going to outside sponsorship. You get the first outside sponsor hooked hopefully it will begin the domino effect.

I will let you roll with that. There's more that can be done but this is just a rough outline of suggestions.


It's not necesary to get inside billiards industry sponsorship to get outside sponsorship. That would be like saying that the most often seen sponsor for football and basketball is sports gear manufacturers. What you need is general interest in watching the sport on TV.

Snap9
02-03-2008, 05:38 PM
It's not necesary to get inside billiards industry sponsorship to get outside sponsorship. That would be like saying that the most often seen sponsor for football and basketball is sports gear manufacturers. What you need is general interest in watching the sport on TV.


Actually Jaden, In the early years of both football and basketball sponsorship came from uniform, equiptment and shoe manufacturers. Now in past 30 some odd yrs sponsorship has come from outside their respective industries.

Jaden
02-03-2008, 05:45 PM
Actually Jaden, In the early years of both football and basketball sponsorship came from uniform, equiptment and shoe manufacturers. Now in past 30 some odd yrs sponsorship has come from outside their respective industries.


Just like pool now, and just like pool now, the players made almost nothing and barely enough to survive on. It wasn't until they showed that many people on TV would watch it and drew corporate sponsorship that they started to really succeed. That is what we need for pool, it didn't matter if the sports manufacturers were willing to invest some more, it wouldn;t have been enough. It is the same thing with pool. It is not the manufacturers that we need, although I do agree that they need to invest more in pool, it is the corporate sponsors and we need something to draw them in.

Jimk
02-03-2008, 08:41 PM
Pool needs a benefactor. Someone like Kevin Trudeau, only more realistic about how to manage a pro tour. Players need to be squeaky clean and seen as likeable people. Have you heard of any lady pros playing 24 hour gambling sessions? Pool is still associated with the hustle. Tell anyone you are a player and the first thing they say is, "Oh, you're a hustler." All proffesional sports are involved in community projects and charity, except pool. We are seen as people who will cut your wallet out of your pants while you are asleep.

Jaden
02-03-2008, 10:38 PM
Pool needs a benefactor. Someone like Kevin Trudeau, only more realistic about how to manage a pro tour. Players need to be squeaky clean and seen as likeable people. Have you heard of any lady pros playing 24 hour gambling sessions? Pool is still associated with the hustle. Tell anyone you are a player and the first thing they say is, "Oh, you're a hustler." All proffesional sports are involved in community projects and charity, except pool. We are seen as people who will cut your wallet out of your pants while you are asleep.

People at work see how I play and in conversation we my playing in the occasional pro tournament gets brought up, the value of my cues etc, and even though I hardly ever play for money, I'll hear them refer to me as the hustler, shark, etc... Unfortunately that is the image of pool by the general public and until that changes I think it will be difficult to get corporate sponsorship.

SJDinPHX
02-03-2008, 11:13 PM
Mike, I am probably the most computer illiterate person on the planet.
I may very well have quoted you from another thread, does that
matter, if it was something you said ? I have allready said I admire
what you're trying to do for our sport. Just because we don't always
agree on how to approach that end, should not make us adversaries!
Lets start over again and see if we can't get along better.
Regards,
Dick

SJDinPHX
02-03-2008, 11:16 PM
Mike, I am probably the most computer illiterate person on the planet.
I may very well have quoted you from another thread, does that
matter, if it was something you said ? I have allready said I admire
what you're trying to do for our sport. Just because we don't always
agree on how to approach that end, should not make us adversaries!
Lets start over again and see if we can't get along better.
Regards,
Dick
I think I screwed up again trying to edit. Forgot to push quote button.Oh well, hope you accept this as my public explanation
of our miscommunications.

MikeJanis
02-04-2008, 03:16 AM
I think I screwed up again trying to edit. Forgot to push quote button.Oh well, hope you accept this as my public explanation
of our miscommunications.


OK, me to. As Scooby Doo sais,,,,,,rorry

Big Bad Bern
02-04-2008, 10:15 PM
I believe that pool is facing an extremely difficult challenge currently, rising cost of business combined with stagnent wage rates is making running a successful pool room very difficult and especially some place large enough to hold proper proffessional tournaments. This has neccesitated the use of casino's and hotels for tournament venues and driven up the cost of events, making it much harder for promoters to turn a profit (Glass City open) or at least not loose money.

I think that an alternate location idea is neccessary and I propose Golf courses, their are thousands of them all over the country and most have to contend with 4-6 month off seasons due to inclement wheather. I am sure if they were approached with the idea as a secondary source of revenue and a way to keep their patrons and members comming there through the winter, as well as bringing in new faces and members who might never set foot on a golf course otherwise, and it would expose pool to new people and lend legitimacy to our game and make possible a viable Pro Tour and Qualifying Tours from which to graduate to the Pro Tour. Also weekly league play from various agencies (APA, BCA, VNEA, TAP etc. or one run by tour organinzers) would be a way for golf course profits to be increased as well as subsidizing the various tours.

Think about it most golf courses are already equiped to provided food and beverages, and have plenty of parking and the list could go on.

Just my opinion, I am interested to hear others.

Bern

MikeJanis
02-04-2008, 10:24 PM
I believe that pool is facing an extremely difficult challenge currently, rising cost of business combined with stagnent wage rates is making running a successful pool room very difficult and especially some place large enough to hold proper proffessional tournaments. This has neccesitated the use of casino's and hotels for tournament venues and driven up the cost of events, making it much harder for promoters to turn a profit (Glass City open) or at least not loose money.

I think that an alternate location idea is neccessary and I propose Golf courses, their are thousands of them all over the country and most have to contend with 4-6 month off seasons due to inclement wheather. I am sure if they were approached with the idea as a secondary source of revenue and a way to keep their patrons and members comming there through the winter, as well as bringing in new faces and members who might never set foot on a golf course otherwise, and it would expose pool to new people and lend legitimacy to our game and make possible a viable Pro Tour and Qualifying Tours from which to graduate to the Pro Tour. Also weekly league play from various agencies (APA, BCA, VNEA, TAP etc. or one run by tour organinzers) would be a way for golf course profits to be increased as well as subsidizing the various tours.

Think about it most golf courses are already equiped to provided food and beverages, and have plenty of parking and the list could go on.

Just my opinion, I am interested to hear others.

Bern

The Golf course idea is a great idea as an option. However, one of the main reasons events go to ball rooms, casino's and convention centers is the main reason they wouldn't be successful at golf courses.

Reason: Convenience of having an attached / combined hotel for the venue.

Any idea is a good idea so please keep the coming. Mj

Big Bad Bern
02-04-2008, 10:39 PM
I know in the midwest and Canada(where I am from) hotels near golf courses could be a problem, but there seems to be an abundance of courses in the Carolina's, Florida, California, Georgia, Arizona and I am sure many other places that have hotels on site for the Pro tour events, and as far as the qualifying tours and such, players are used to driving and finding hotels near the venue for events such as yours held currently in pool rooms that they would continue to do so for the promise of prize money and a shot to work their way on to the Pro Tour.

If the smaller events in non resorts courses were shown to be profitable this could be used as leverage for negotiating with big resorts with the bonus to both sides of players staying on site and hopefully TV if not at least internet coverage and promotion of the course.

More thoughts form me.

Bern

P.S. nice to talk to you Mike I hope to someday play one of your events.

MikeJanis
02-04-2008, 11:02 PM
I know in the midwest and Canada(where I am from) hotels near golf courses could be a problem, but there seems to be an abundance of courses in the Carolina's, Florida, California, Georgia, Arizona and I am sure many other places that have hotels on site for the Pro tour events, and as far as the qualifying tours and such, players are used to driving and finding hotels near the venue for events such as yours held currently in pool rooms that they would continue to do so for the promise of prize money and a shot to work their way on to the Pro Tour.

If the smaller events in non resorts courses were shown to be profitable this could be used as leverage for negotiating with big resorts with the bonus to both sides of players staying on site and hopefully TV if not at least internet coverage and promotion of the course.

More thoughts form me.

Bern

P.S. nice to talk to you Mike I hope to someday play one of your events.


I have been sitting here negatively thinking about why Golf courses are bad ideas (I'm 1/2 asleep and had a bad day so you could say I'm grumpy). Anyway, so I'm sitting here with these negative thoughts about the GC idea and trying to think of a nice way to tell you it wont work < That sure was a waste of my time.


Then it hit me, you might really be on to something here. Not for the reasons you meant but for many other ones. Putting pool tables in Golf Course bars, club houses or even adding a pool room at their facilities is a great idea. This would expose many of the people (market segments) to the game. It might even inspire (heck, it will inspire) a few people to buy tables and the needed equipment for their houses. Maybe even 1 day we will hear about how all those big CO's made the new revolutionary idea over a game of pool instead of golf because it was storming outside.

I wish I had time to explore the potentials of this. I really hope somebody picks up on the idea. Maybe those guys in the thread about quitting their current job for a pool related job.

Dang !,, I hate it when I have to pass up million dollar ideas. Somebody please pick up this idea.

Mj, thinks that the BIG billiard industry manufactures, specifically the table guys should get booth space at Golf Industry Conventions and sell'em the idea.


Thanks for the inspiration Bern,

Mj

john schmidt
02-05-2008, 08:43 AM
one thing i think would help is if people when they buy products do it from the companies who support pro pool.there is a hundred billiard supply stores on the internet but only a few who put any money into the pro tour.we all basically know who those are.so when your buying from them feel free to tell them i came to you because you support pool.simonis cloth puts good money into many tourneys ,platinum billiards supply,ozone billiards,seyberts billiards,brunswick,super aramith balls,diamond,muellers,ob1etc,etc.anyway if people support them they will continue to support pool.and i appreciate that as many other players do.lets quit buying from china and buy from our american companies .just a thought ,take care everbody john schmidt

ceebee
02-05-2008, 08:51 AM
A lot of Country Clubs have very nice Pool Tables. Having been a Golf Professional for a few years at Colonial CC in Ft Worth, I can say this might be a possibility. Not a sure thing, but a possibility. Any Tournament would probably be held in the Ball Room, where there is sometimes more than ample room. There would have to be an admission charge to any & all who attend (including the players). Maybe the news media would cover the event. Because the event is being held in the local social club, the location & attending socialites would have it's perks. Several of these events, held across the USA would bring up the image of our Sport.

There will have to be a strict Dress Code (it won't hurt the players to wear some nice clothes), a behavior restraint (acting civil & respectful might be carried back to the Pool Room) & obvious good sportsmanship. There will be some CC members who will attend & they will be watching...

We have large tournaments at the Casinos & those rules apply. Any breach is automatic dismissal. We also have some great Calcuttas, the gambling fever runs deep at a Casinos. CC members like to gamble too, they also like to watch competition in it's highest form. Most Muni-courses are not suitable for this kind of venue. Smoking & alcohol of any form might not be available. I dunno...

Staging some events like this would be fun to do & great to attend.

ceebee
02-05-2008, 09:08 AM
Good POST from John Scmidt. Cheapskates abound, don't they. Pool Gear is bought on the internet, traded under the nose of Pro Shops & any talk of a Tournament cover charge is met with a "are you kidding me" (but they will pay $50 for football ticket & be eager to get seated to order some $5 beer & $5 hot dogs).

Professional Pool is NOT going to be supported solely by some deep pocket sponsor. There will be an admission charge, the beer will be $4 a cup, liquor will be $5 for a small glass, a hot dog will be $6, steaks will be $30 and so on, but the event will become an extravaganza. Calcuttas will go through the roof. Quality Pool Gear will be sold & side line lessons can be had.

But, the players & companions who attend will have to spend some money, or the event will be a one time "flash in the pan". Money brings out the interest in everyone. When players, retailers, sponsors & event producers start spending some real entertainment money, things will change for the good.

edd
02-05-2008, 09:10 AM
There is some credence, I believe, to the exposure that can be generated by a good movie. Mr. Sorvino are you out there?

JoeyA
06-06-2008, 07:21 AM
Joey, if you write it well enough your commission will be immortality. I give you permission as a parent (will that work) I think its the highest most important authority I have so it should be ok.

You already seem to have an idea of what the guide book should say, now all you have to do is put in in writing. I'd bet you could hav an outline done in 1-2 days. Once you get it together start a thread here on AZ. Maybe put in in the test forum to keep it a secret then invite respected players and industry members from AZ to review and add suggestion at their convenience. After that I would say it would take about a week or two to complete. It won't need published in book for because I am sure we/you could just put it on the net somewhere or everywhere. I would help out in any way I can.

Mj

It has taken a little more than 1-2 days :o but THE CODE OF CONDUCT For Professional Pool Players is completed (Beta Version). It was a collaboration between Doug Gordon and myself. It is in a word document format attachment. If some of you can't view the document attached I will change it to text in another post in the thread "CODE OF CONDUCT". Let me know in that thread. Thanks.

Special thanks to Jerry Forsythe for the this thread and Mike Janis for encouraging me to write it.

JoeyA