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View Full Version : spliced shafts versus conventional


fan-tum
03-14-2008, 02:52 PM
Do you think spliced shafts are inherently better than solid shafts, or is it all hype?

SPINDOKTOR
03-14-2008, 03:03 PM
A spliced shaft does have advantages, over a conventional maple shaft... There is abosolutely no hype about that, it is fact... Deflection, no there is where the Hype useualy comes in..


SPINDOKTOR

JoeyInCali
03-14-2008, 03:17 PM
A spliced shaft does have advantages, over a conventional maple shaft... There is abosolutely no hype about that, it is fact... Deflection, no there is where the Hype useualy comes in..


SPINDOKTOR
What advantages do flat-laminated shafts have over conventional ones?

jhr
03-14-2008, 03:31 PM
This has to have been the best marketing job of all time. They have told you that plywood for shafts is the greatest think since the invention of the wheel. I don't know how we ever made a ball with a straight piece of maple. My hat goes off to these master minds. Deflection has been the buzz word for the billiards industry. I always thought that the player made the cue and not the shaft. If these shafts are so great, why doesn't everyone go and buy a Kmart cue and play.

Big C
03-14-2008, 06:30 PM
Would you go into battle with a rock when you could have had a gun? If you don't believe in the low deflection shafts that are out there today, then that is your choice. In my experience I have played with many different cues before trying the predator and OB1. Since then it's been nothing but predator for me. It just plain outperforms and that's where the buck stops with me.

JoeyInCali
03-14-2008, 06:45 PM
Would you go into battle with a rock when you could have had a gun? If you don't believe in the low deflection shafts that are out there today, then that is your choice. In my experience I have played with many different cues before trying the predator and OB1. Since then it's been nothing but predator for me. It just plain outperforms and that's where the buck stops with me.
Low deflection doesn't mean it has to be laminated.

You can easily have conventional shaft with a bored hole.

magnetardo
03-14-2008, 06:51 PM
Low deflection doesn't mean it has to be laminated.

You can easily have conventional shaft with a bored hole.


Not without infringing on a copyright or 2 :D

JoeyInCali
03-14-2008, 08:19 PM
Better yet, I will send you specs for another cue I have coming my way real soon. You can quote me a LD Primo quality shaft for it

If it is as easy as you say it is, than you should get alot of orders for shafts.
Predator has a patent on that hole.

SPINDOKTOR
03-14-2008, 09:36 PM
[QUOTE=JoeyInCali]What advantages do flat-laminated shafts have over conventional ones?[/QUOTE





I would most definately answer your question but since your more of an expert on these subjects than I, you are a cue maker yes? Id like you to express your views on apparently why you think there is no advantage?

I know little about FLAT Laminated shafts, and I dont think Ive ever owned a cue that had one, now pie shaped or otherwise laminated shafts I do have experiance with...


SPINDOKTOR

SPINDOKTOR
03-14-2008, 09:39 PM
Low deflection doesn't mean it has to be laminated.

You can easily have conventional shaft with a bored hole.



I agree low deflection doesnt mean laminated, I played with a house cue tonight, and I was amazed at how much side I could use and still pocket the ball, definately low deflection... that is part of the problem, laminated shafts are much more consistant from shaft to shaft V/s solid maple shafts...As I picked up another one identical to it, and it was horrible..

JoeyInCali
03-14-2008, 09:44 PM
I agree low deflection doesnt mean laminated, I played with a house cue tonight, and I was amazed at how much side I could use and still pocket the ball, definately low deflection... that is part of the problem, laminated shafts are much more consistant from shaft to shaft V/s solid maple shafts...As I picked up another one identical to it, and it was horrible..
How can splices of different boards made in China be more consistent?
Now if all makers made shafts with 15-inch barrel, short plastic ferrule and hollowed front, they'd really be close to being alike.

SPINDOKTOR
03-14-2008, 09:55 PM
How can splices of different boards made in China be more consistent?
Now if all makers made shafts with 15-inch barrel, short plastic ferrule and hollowed front, they'd really be close to being alike.


Exactly, the majority of laminated shafts like the 314-2 Z-2 X shaft, OB-1 etc,, are pretty consistant in shaft to shaft, as the majority of these shafts I have tried all play very simular, Some maple shafts (solid) play differnt if you turn them a certain way, ala sweet spot.. whereas a laminated shaft if properly built has a 360* sweetspot...

If you have a low deflection solid maple shaft, I see no advantage, untill you need a new shaft, you cant gurantee you will get a shaft that plays close enough you dont need to readjust, now with the popular laminated shafts I could venture to say you could.. at least after the tip has seated in... because they are consistant..

This is my observations, that I know to be true... If your have had an experiance otherwise Id like to hear it.

JoeyInCali
03-14-2008, 10:30 PM
If you have a low deflection solid maple shaft, I see no advantage, untill you need a new shaft, you cant gurantee you will get a shaft that plays close enough you dont need to readjust, now with the popular laminated shafts I could venture to say you could.. at least after the tip has seated in... because they are consistant..
IF it has a bored hole, same ferrule and taper, why wouldn't it be?

You think multiple pieces from different boards with differing density, age, tone and weight is more consistent?
The consistency in them is they are all made the same exact way.
If all makers bored their shafts 1/4 by 5 inches deep and used the same exact taper and ferrule, it'd ruin the laminated shaft market imo.

SPINDOKTOR
03-14-2008, 11:27 PM
If you have a low deflection solid maple shaft, I see no advantage, untill you need a new shaft, you cant gurantee you will get a shaft that plays close enough you dont need to readjust, now with the popular laminated shafts I could venture to say you could.. at least after the tip has seated in... because they are consistant..
IF it has a bored hole, same ferrule and taper, why wouldn't it be?

You think multiple pieces from different boards with differing density, age, tone and weight is more consistent?
The consistency in them is they are all made the same exact way.
If all makers bored their shafts 1/4 by 5 inches deep and used the same exact taper and ferrule, it'd ruin the laminated shaft market imo.


Joey, I agree with you for the most part and I understand what your saying, but you cant deny the aftermarket low deflection shafts if anything are consistant in playability.. I think this was the main reason people started going with laminated shafts, so when you get a new cue, you would have as near identical shafts as possible..

If I were to look at it from a cue makers standpoint, where I can only speculate, I would drill all my shafts 1/4 by 5 inches Deep and use the same taper.. that way all my cues would play very simular.....If this also lessens deflection, that would be a bonous right? what I mean is, as long as you can get a shaft to play really close to your former shaft, to me it wouldnt need to be low deflection, just consistant..

I think your on to something, why not go with it? I think if modifying a solid maple shaft, if you can get results, by all means do it.. I'll be your best customer.

SPINDOKTOR

JoeyInCali
03-14-2008, 11:36 PM
If I were to look at it from a cue makers standpoint, where I can only speculate, I would drill all my shafts 1/4 by 5 inches Deep and use the same taper.. that way all my cues would play very simular.....If this also lessens deflection, that would be a bonous right? what I mean is, as long as you can get a shaft to play really close to your former shaft, to me it wouldnt need to be low deflection, just consistant..
It would make them very close to similar b/c by drilling that hole and using a soft ferrule, you would be killing tone out of the equation.
Hollowed shafts have almost no feel.

SPINDOKTOR
03-14-2008, 11:55 PM
hmm, would using a harder ferrule material help? See this is why I mentioned Carbonfiber awhile back.., for ferrule material, you lessen weight off the tip but Id imagine the hit would be hard?

I really am just making questimates, because really I dont know.. I do think if you can work out the perticulars, you would have some very consistant playing cues.. I dont know how to solve the hit problem, or what harder ferrules cause when used.. other than possibly a harder hit.

these are uncharted waters, someone is bound to set sail eventualy, If I had the cue making equipment and know how Id be all over it......


I quess Im sort of silly in a sense, because I feel that way, but truely it is my nature..

SPINDOKTOR


If I were to look at it from a cue makers standpoint, where I can only speculate, I would drill all my shafts 1/4 by 5 inches Deep and use the same taper.. that way all my cues would play very simular.....If this also lessens deflection, that would be a bonous right? what I mean is, as long as you can get a shaft to play really close to your former shaft, to me it wouldnt need to be low deflection, just consistant..
It would make them very close to similar b/c by drilling that hole and using a soft ferrule, you would be killing tone out of the equation.
Hollowed shafts have almost no feel.

JoeyInCali
03-15-2008, 12:32 AM
hmm, would using a harder ferrule material help? See this is why I mentioned Carbonfiber awhile back.., for ferrule material, you lessen weight off the tip but Id imagine the hit would be hard?
I imagine a carbon fiber tube will work.
Maybe 5/16 in diam with a 1/4 hole . Then sleeve a lightwt. ferrule.
http://www.carbonfibertubeshop.com//index2.html
Predator won't have any grounds to sue I think.

ShootingArts
03-15-2008, 01:09 AM
As a general statement laminated shaft consistency comes from two things. The first is the identical profile of all shafts as Joey mentioned. The other thing is the primary characteristics of the way the shaft plays doesn't come from the wood itself but from the adhesive holding it together and the adhesive soaked wood. In effect when playing with the laminated shafts you are playing with a synthetic shaft. For the greatest consistency of all, go to spun aluminum. Dang did those things bong and vibrate! Nearly nobody wants a plastic or metal shaft, but considering the huge market share that all of the laminated shafts combined have and then add in the sheathed shafts and that is where we are headed.

Someone tested high grade maple shafts many years ago and came up with a number of 3% difference in deflection depending on how the grain was oriented. Of course that rarely makes a difference but it is possible to index your cue for each shot to take advantage of this if you choose. In the days of playing with house cues, I always indexed my cue, mainly because I was often playing with a badly warped cue and I preferred the belly to be down on these cues.

(deleted sections)
Hu


Exactly, the majority of laminated shafts like the 314-2 Z-2 X shaft, OB-1 etc,, are pretty consistant in shaft to shaft, as the majority of these shafts I have tried all play very simular, Some maple shafts (solid) play differnt if you turn them a certain way, ala sweet spot.. whereas a laminated shaft if properly built has a 360* sweetspot...

If you have a low deflection solid maple shaft, I see no advantage, untill you need a new shaft, you cant gurantee you will get a shaft that plays close enough you dont need to readjust, now with the popular laminated shafts I could venture to say you could.. at least after the tip has seated in... because they are consistant..

This is my observations, that I know to be true... If your have had an experiance otherwise Id like to hear it.

mrinsatiable
03-15-2008, 02:07 AM
doesn't mcdermott already have laminated shafts with carbon inserts? Ishafts?

has anyone hit with those compared to predator or ob-1?

SPINDOKTOR
03-15-2008, 11:31 AM
hmm, would using a harder ferrule material help? See this is why I mentioned Carbonfiber awhile back.., for ferrule material, you lessen weight off the tip but Id imagine the hit would be hard?
I imagine a carbon fiber tube will work.
Maybe 5/16 in diam with a 1/4 hole . Then sleeve a lightwt. ferrule.
http://www.carbonfibertubeshop.com//index2.html
Predator won't have any grounds to sue I think.







Hu, a two peice design shaft sounds great


SPINDOKTOR

JoeyInCali
03-15-2008, 12:27 PM
edited due to death threat. :)

jongreve
03-15-2008, 12:38 PM
My cuemaker absolutely despises laminated shafts.

I blindly trust him and have never used one.

He seems to feel that if one of the laminates decides to warp, it throws the whole shaft off.

My skewed interpretation, "Better to have a shaft that will last 20 years than to have to buy a new laminated every 6months"

Like I mentioned, I know nothing, I just blindly trust my cuemaker

JoeyInCali
03-15-2008, 12:56 PM
My cuemaker absolutely despises laminated shafts.

I blindly trust him and have never used one.

He seems to feel that if one of the laminates decides to warp, it throws the whole shaft off.

My skewed interpretation, "Better to have a shaft that will last 20 years than to have to buy a new laminated every 6months"

Like I mentioned, I know nothing, I just blindly trust my cuemaker
Err, that's true with one-piece shafts too.

Fatboy
03-15-2008, 01:17 PM
Predator has a patent on that hole.


The hole in BGP24's avitar? or something else.:eek:

ShootingArts
03-15-2008, 01:24 PM
Joey,

A very unique design that was stolen from me is on the market in another sport right now. Every time I read a rave review crediting the SOB that stole my design I am tempted to do violence. If and when I take an interest in that area again, I'll market my design and dare the thief to sue. One good thing, he stole a simplified version of the design that I sent out to one of the leaders in the sport to let him play with. The man I sent it to had the highest reputation in the sport which is known as a gentleman's game. I was still a fool to trust him. However my full design is far better.

My proto-type was so successful that I would have a very good chance of setting world records if I went back to that sport. It would take three to six months of intense effort to get ready to compete so I am more likely to build my full design and put it in front of some good guys that I competed with that are capable of setting records with it too. After the earlier theft, getting a patent, making a dozen or two units to cover the patent costs, and no more to be available for the thieves kinda tickles my fancy. Hard to put the time and effort out largely for spite but the idea has been proven to be of great value and it sits on the shelf, my working proto-type still exists.

(deleted section)

Hu

JoeyInCali
03-15-2008, 01:29 PM
WOW! Sorry for your loss.
Kinda amazing with all these laminates, that there might still be a much BETTER way of doing it.;)

Fatboy
03-15-2008, 01:30 PM
I read a post on here from someone with less than 100 posts 6 months ago and it went something like this "they day the words "squirt/deflection" came into use the words "action/gamble" died". I agree with that to a extent, the world is changing. However I havent had a hard time finding games, I just cant play cause of my back.

The manufactored shafts biz is a great marketing idea and its great to see people make $$$ in this biz, and players enjoying their engineered shafts, they do play different than a regular shaft, no doubt about it. Thus its not a bad thing.

Additionally there just isnt enough good shaft wood to go around anymore and moreover it has to age to get real good, Personally I like 30-40 year old straight grain maple shafts over the "build as better mouse trap shafts" When Earl ran his 11 pack for a million do you really think he was thinking about his shaft?, or when Archer ran 14 or 15 playing Busta I know he couldnt careless about his shaft-his shafts have more dings than there are slot machines in Vegas, he can beat the world with damn near anything.


I have bought a coupe of the aftermarket shafte just to experience them, i like to learn about new things. and They are cool,

If you look at how many seems there are in a OB-1 its crezy something like 60 I counted there is more glue holding that shaft together than there is wood-but wow can you ever get some juice on the rock with that shaft, I never know where the rock is gonna stop. The Tiger shaft is my favorite, the 314 shafts arnt for me I like to feel the shot.


i'm not against them, but I'm old school-give me a 40 years old fat shaft and i'm cool

JoeyInCali
03-16-2008, 03:42 PM
You are such a **** Tease.

Spill the beans Joey!!! Who is making it and when is it coming out?

http://dzcues.com/images/graphite_inserts.jpg
Looks like DZ is making the carbon inserted shafts now.
Go get one.