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huckster
03-19-2008, 09:36 PM
Everyone,
I have always wanted to see pool's most known record (Mosconi running 526) challenged and possibly eclipsed. I have been an avid player and lifelong fan of pool. I am very fortunate to be in a financial position to do something in pool for both mine and "the pool world's" satisfaction. Since I no longer play pool I really want to see someone break the 526 mark. I want to try to find sponsership or to try to obtain an insurance policy (i.e Lloyd's of London) in conjunction with a sizable contribution from my own funds, to see if I could raise a guaranteed 1 million prize to anyone that could break Willie's 526. I want to set up a "loose" if possible Diamond at most major tournaments and charge a nominal ($100) entry to try and find a champion to run 527. I am willing to put my money in this venture if I can secure a policy or additional sponsership to make this happen. Anyone that has any ideas please share them with me. Fortunatly I am in a position where I can make something like this happen and it would be great for the game. It may draw interest to a lost artform (14.1) Greg Sullivan please PM me with a way to get a hold of you I would like your input about your tables for this. This could be like the million dollar challenge that Earl won, but with this whomever could break the record would get the advertised prize (whatever that would be I want to at least make it a mill, I will heavily support this). I think I can make this happen any ideas please share them.

Fast Lenny
03-19-2008, 09:57 PM
I would suggest several tables as one wont be enough as those high runs take forever,so i would say atleast 5 tables.Then i would charge a $100 a head but at the end of the event i would give the person with the highest run a percentage of the entries so they still walk with something decent. ;)

av84fun
03-19-2008, 10:10 PM
Sir...congratulations to you for conceiving of this novel and interesting challenge. I wish you well.

However, I don't think there is anyone alive today who could come close. None of the top pros of today have dedicated decades of their lives almost exclusively to 14.1.

And those who did back in the day, like Willie, ran 125-50 and out did so only 10% of the time or less.

In spite of straight pool's well deserved reputation for involving less luck than 9 Ball, it certainly is not devoid of luck as the above statistic shows.

Breaking into the rack and into secondary clusters involves a meaningful degree of luck that often conspires to end runs at the 25-50 ball mark.

In addition, leaving an ideal break shot, in itself, is no walk in the park.

All told, I would guess (because I don't have actual statistics) is that the average run of the top pros of the Mosconi era (and earlier) after the first open break shot would be between 35-50 balls suggesting that it would take 10 -15 attempts to get to 526.

That all goes to show what a spectacular feat it was...and Babe Cranfield's run of 768 in practice in the presence of credible witnesses.

But I doubt that many players would part with even $100.00 to even try.

But again, I applaud your creativity and generosity.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
03-19-2008, 10:12 PM
I would suggest several tables as one wont be enough as those high runs take forever,so i would say atleast 5 tables.Then i would charge a $100 a head but at the end of the event i would give the person with the highest run a percentage of the entries so they still walk with something decent. ;)

Excellent idea and similar to Bob Jewett's Straight Pool Challenge at DCC.

Numerous players would compete for the high run prize and the million dollar "Mosconi Prize" would certainly add some marketing pizzaz.

Regards,
Jim

JoeyInCali
03-19-2008, 10:17 PM
Can they play on 4 3/4" corner pockets too?

the420trooper
03-19-2008, 10:25 PM
I think John Schmidt could make this happen in a couple of months, if there's a million dollar prize. He may be the best straight pool player alive, and if given this kind of incentive, he would work at it, day after day. He would evenually have a day where he didn't make any errors at all.

Fast Lenny
03-19-2008, 10:33 PM
I also believe the insurance company would want it all taped also. :cool:

Jimmy M.
03-19-2008, 11:18 PM
However, I don't think there is anyone alive today who could come close. None of the top pros of today have dedicated decades of their lives almost exclusively to 14.1.


Thomas Engert ran 491. That's pretty close as far as I'm concerned.

Fast Lenny
03-20-2008, 12:31 AM
Thomas Engert ran 491. That's pretty close as far as I'm concerned.
So that is the official high run on a 9 footer?

Jimmy M.
03-20-2008, 01:48 AM
So that is the official high run on a 9 footer?

I honestly don't know. I know it's his high run, and he lists it on his site as if it's a record of some sort, but I'm not sure what the official high run on a 9' table is.

526 will be very, very tough to beat. I'm not saying it can't happen, or it won't happen, but someone still has to step up and do it. It is definitely not a foregone conclusion that it will happen.

huckster
03-20-2008, 02:49 AM
I would suggest several tables as one wont be enough as those high runs take forever,so i would say atleast 5 tables.Then i would charge a $100 a head but at the end of the event i would give the person with the highest run a percentage of the entries so they still walk with something decent. ;)

I like the idea of a couple tables, but I do not want to overdue it. Maybe two or three. I do not want to interfere with the events. Logistics to transport and set-up tables that are exactley the same for each venue may limit the amount to teo or three. Also some sponserships at tournaments may clash with the Diamond product.

huckster
03-20-2008, 03:23 AM
Sir...congratulations to you for conceiving of this novel and interesting challenge. I wish you well.

However, I don't think there is anyone alive today who could come close. None of the top pros of today have dedicated decades of their lives almost exclusively to 14.1.

And those who did back in the day, like Willie, ran 125-50 and out did so only 10% of the time or less.

In spite of straight pool's well deserved reputation for involving less luck than 9 Ball, it certainly is not devoid of luck as the above statistic shows.

Breaking into the rack and into secondary clusters involves a meaningful degree of luck that often conspires to end runs at the 25-50 ball mark.

In addition, leaving an ideal break shot, in itself, is no walk in the park.

All told, I would guess (because I don't have actual statistics) is that the average run of the top pros of the Mosconi era (and earlier) after the first open break shot would be between 35-50 balls suggesting that it would take 10 -15 attempts to get to 526.

That all goes to show what a spectacular feat it was...and Babe Cranfield's run of 768 in practice in the presence of credible witnesses.

But I doubt that many players would part with even $100.00 to even try.

But again, I applaud your creativity and generosity.

Regards,
Jim

Jim,
You may
be surprised the amount of legitimate 14.1 practioners (John Schmidt, Micheal Schmidt, Hohmann, Feijen, Souqet, Engert, many other Europeans)
Quite a few of the above have runs well above 300 and some John, Thorsten, Ralph?, Thomas, Earl, have runs exceededing 400 balls. Imagine the interest practicing would bring if I was able to secure a 2-3 million dollar award. The hundred dollar entry was just a idea to keep lower skilled level players from keep a legit threat from breaking the record maybe a qualification system is needed but at this time I am more concerned with securing additional sponsership or an insurance policy.

tonmo
03-20-2008, 03:29 AM
In Souquet v. Reyes, Soquet looked like he could have gone on forever. This challenge would remove the "and out" aspect of it! I agree with the angel here, this can be done!

huckster
03-20-2008, 03:34 AM
I also believe the insurance company would want it all taped also. :cool:

Whatever my representation can work out with them then I will make sure that it happens. I need to talk to Pat Fleming, Greg Sullivan, about getting them onboard as far as using there products. I really am not looking at this as a buisness venture I have nothing to gain but hopefully we could see an intrest in pool occur, and the level of play would increase. Also a lot of players that do not come to the USA would take some shots at the prize. A million is just a number I tossed out there I want it to be a mill at least if not 2-3. If I can get this to happen for example I can get someone like Lloyd's involved, I will be more then happy to pay at least a few years premium's to make this happen. I have an idea what the premium may be (ballpark) and these speciality policies are quite costly but I don't care. I can't take my money with me when I die and after making so much the excess does not have a purpose for me I want to enjoy things in life, and this would be interesting, and good for the game.

Krisz
03-20-2008, 03:46 AM
Somehow I get the feeling, that this might make one of my dreams come true...
Earning a million with pool:cool: - just kidding, i won't get there this century.
But it could bring Efren to straight pool!
My favourite game and my favourite player, united at last:)

Just don't hesitate too long, cuz else he might get too old.
Best of luck!
Krisz

bluepepper
03-20-2008, 05:29 AM
I would hope that the entry fee would allow the player to take as many stabs as needed within a certain time period. Once the time period ends he has no more chances to start over and must go all the way on his current run.

This would be very exciting to watch and would actually bring a straight-pooler like me out to 9-ball events. I would never go otherwise.

Maybe you can make it an even bigger thing at the annual 14.1 events.

I love the idea. Good luck!

Jeff

bluepepper
03-20-2008, 05:34 AM
Like another poster said, I think there has to be at least some incentive for the high run of that particular tournament. And there should probably be at least one backup camera that shoots all the tables at once.
Don't forget that these videos can be sold if recorded properly. At least a clear overhead of each table.
Also, the pockets shouldn't be too tight.
Jeff

lfigueroa
03-20-2008, 07:08 AM
[QUOTE=huckster]I want to set up a "loose" if possible Diamond at most major tournaments and charge a nominal ($100) entry to try and find a champion to run 527.


Good grief. For a million, you don't need to latch onto an event.

With that kind of money, this is the event.

Lou Figueroa

iba7467
03-20-2008, 07:24 AM
Good grief. For a million, you don't need to latch onto an event.

With that kind of money, this is the event.

Lou Figueroa

I believe Lou may have a good point. You could easily find a poolroom to host this event. I in fact will offer ours. Announce a period of time that the challenge would be open... some time in the near future, but enough time that non-straight pool players could get some practice in. Then let them come to the pool room and have at it. For a cool million I believe almost every major pool player in the country might come to the room and set up shop for a week or two. Each player could pre-register, pay, and set a "tee time".

As was mentioned before. The top player each day could be paid a nominal amount and offer the top players for the day each one more opportunity at the end of the night.

ShootingArts
03-20-2008, 07:29 AM
This is a great idea but insurance would be an issue. Specialty insurance companies will gladly issue a bond or coverage for one event, even a year I suspect. However they are not in business to take a guaranteed loss and an open ended policy would be setting themselves up for just that unless it was cost prohibitive to the buyer.

I think you put a nice sum in a special interest bearing account as the prize, ask for donations to be added to that account, publicize the running total in that account and make this information available to anyone who asks, and solicit sponsorship from the various folks that might be interested after you have something real. You can approach people for tentative sponsorship now but don't expect commitments to something that is only an idea. It could happen but it is a long shot.

Being upfront and public with the purse all of the time is a must. Not because of your lack of credibility but because of the skepticism of most players when somebody mentions big money and pool in the same sentence right now.

Good luck with your project. I think that if you can raise an initial purse of a quarter million or more and it growing all the time you can generate all of the interest you want in the chase. 10 to 20K hasn't been enough to make anyone take a real run at the record.

I do like the idea of a $100 entry or possibly even less $50 or $75 buying a block of time on the table, maybe thirty or forty-five minutes guaranteed and then the next miss outside that time limit ends that player's time at the table or they put up more money if nobody else is waiting. I suggest a high run prize at each event too. Depending on the number of participants you can decide how to split the monies. Some to your prize account, some to the highest and maybe second highest runs, and if needed some to keep the competition running. Tables and space at major events are going to be a pretty substantial cost, plus cameras and you will need some staff. Of course the TAR guys and a cheap pay per view might work too.

Late breaking thought, maybe free attempts for the top four to six at each event on the last day. A free entry at your next event for the top shooters might be a thought too since your goal is to see the record broken.

Hu

longhair
03-20-2008, 07:46 AM
If you can put together a million dollar prize, or even a quarter of a million, you are going to get quite a few players practicing and shooting at it. I predict that once 526 is surpassed, new records will be set fairly often for a little while. I don't like the idea that one player makes 532 and gets a million, then the next week someone else runs 750 and gets nothing. Is there some way to cut up the prize money to continue rewarding record-breaking runs? Perhaps a flat award for breaking the current record and something per ball over it? Or something else?

With serious money at stake, I think we would see 526 fall in the near future, particularly if the table is generous (someone mentioned 4.75" pockets).

ugotactionTX
03-20-2008, 07:54 AM
Just a thought... Wasn't Mosconi's run on an 8 footer? If someone broke 526 on a 9foot table wouldn't it be a new record seperate from the 8 foot record?

also, it might make sense for this challenge to be a quest for a new "certified" high run on "any" table. thoughts?

tksix
03-20-2008, 08:12 AM
This almost feels sacrilegious to me. Like messing with the pool Gods. Please don't get me wrong, I think this is a great idea and a great way to get 14.1 back into the spot light. But, Mosconi is our legend almost immortal.

In MY perfect world, John Schmidt would run 526 balls and be straight in on 527.............................take his cue apart and go have dinner. Keeping the legend alive, and proving to us what we already believe, that John could do it.

Kinda like Barry Sanders when he retired just before breaking Walter Payton's all time rushing record. He kept his hero's "legend" in tact and just walked away.....................we all knew he could do it and he proved he beyond a doubt he could.

I always viewed that as a class act!!!!!

Regardless I would love to watch anyone run that many balls!

BillYards
03-20-2008, 08:21 AM
I think Barry Bonds should have done the same thing for the homerun record. He should have quit one HR short of a tie. Now it is just a slimey record on the books.

I also hope that nobody breaks the record officially.

av84fun
03-20-2008, 08:29 AM
Just a thought... Wasn't Mosconi's run on an 8 footer? If someone broke 526 on a 9foot table wouldn't it be a new record seperate from the 8 foot record?

also, it might make sense for this challenge to be a quest for a new "certified" high run on "any" table. thoughts?

I agree that shooting at Mosconi's record must include the same table specs...including table length, pocket specs...NOT just width...and cloth.

Otherwise, it's apples and oranges.

Regards,
Jim

dabarbr
03-20-2008, 08:38 AM
I honestly don't know. I know it's his high run, and he lists it on his site as if it's a record of some sort, but I'm not sure what the official high run on a 9' table is.

526 will be very, very tough to beat. I'm not saying it can't happen, or it won't happen, but someone still has to step up and do it. It is definitely not a foregone conclusion that it will happen.
526 will be hard to beat. But if it was done once it can be done again. All records are made to be broken.

Maybe we should all start practicing.

ShootingArts
03-20-2008, 08:39 AM
Jim,

To shoot at Mosconi's record it should have to be done in exhibition. To make it fair those chasing it should have paid sponsors and shoot the many dozens of exhibitions Mosconi shot each year too.

In other words, it will never be exactly the same. Mosconi's record is the one that is somewhat artificial since it was set on what is generally accepted as a nonstandard table under nonstandard conditions. I hope we have a new record set on a standard table. Then chasing that record will mean much more in my opinion, sacred cows or not.

Hu



I agree that shooting at Mosconi's record must include the same table specs...including table length, pocket specs...NOT just width...and cloth.

Otherwise, it's apples and oranges.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
03-20-2008, 09:14 AM
Jim,

To shoot at Mosconi's record it should have to be done in exhibition. To make it fair those chasing it should have paid sponsors and shoot the many dozens of exhibitions Mosconi shot each year too.

In other words, it will never be exactly the same. Mosconi's record is the one that is somewhat artificial since it was set on what is generally accepted as a nonstandard table under nonstandard conditions. I hope we have a new record set on a standard table. Then chasing that record will mean much more in my opinion, sacred cows or not.

Hu

The event proposed is, in effect, an exhibition. I agree that the table was "non-standard" since the proposition is specifically to beat the Mosconi record, then the only thing to do would be to duplicate the playing conditions as closely as possible.

Any record set on a 9 ft. table would be a record unto itself and would have nothing to do with the MOSCONI record.

However, since the vast majority of shots in 14.1 take place on the lower half of the table, the difference between a 9 ft. and 8 ft. table would produce a MAXIMUM distance differential of only 6 inches and a median differential of only about 3 inches so the table size is not a big deal IMHO.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
03-20-2008, 09:20 AM
If you can put together a million dollar prize, or even a quarter of a million, you are going to get quite a few players practicing and shooting at it. I predict that once 526 is surpassed, new records will be set fairly often for a little while. I don't like the idea that one player makes 532 and gets a million, then the next week someone else runs 750 and gets nothing. Is there some way to cut up the prize money to continue rewarding record-breaking runs? Perhaps a flat award for breaking the current record and something per ball over it? Or something else?

With serious money at stake, I think we would see 526 fall in the near future, particularly if the table is generous (someone mentioned 4.75" pockets).

Without a reason to travel to the venue other than the 14.1 challenge, few players would go to the expense of travel for what would be no better than a 100-1 chance of winning....IMHO.

Here are the results from the Bob Jewett Straight Pool Challenge at the DCC. Note that many of the top 14.1 players in the world competed.

"The top prelim score was by Mika Immonen who ran 147 balls. He
came in as the defending champion having scored a 160 in the
finals in 2007. The other top scores were 140 by Fabio Petroni
from Italy, 126 by Niels Feijen, 107 by Corey Deuel, 100 by John
Schmidt, 98 by Thorsten Hohmann, 92 by Ralf Souquet, and a
barely-squeeked-in 73 by Appleton. Feijen had two other runs
over 100 and only took 10 of his permitted 12 tries. Hohmann had
three runs of 98, just missing the magic 100. "

These players had TWELVE innings to score their runs and the high run was 147.

Bob, what was the high run in the history of your event? I doubt it was over 250 and that involves hundres of innings.

Regards,
Jim

Johnnyt
03-20-2008, 09:26 AM
Just a thought... Wasn't Mosconi's run on an 8 footer? If someone broke 526 on a 9foot table wouldn't it be a new record seperate from the 8 foot record?

also, it might make sense for this challenge to be a quest for a new "certified" high run on "any" table. thoughts?

Yes. I was waiting for someone to bring that up. I don't believe any of the 1000000 people that say / said they were there in that SMALL place know for sure what size pockets he was shooting into. I say if your going to do it, make it a new world record on a 4 1/2X9 table. Johnnyt

thedude
03-20-2008, 09:30 AM
Just a thought... Wasn't Mosconi's run on an 8 footer? If someone broke 526 on a 9foot table wouldn't it be a new record seperate from the 8 foot record?

also, it might make sense for this challenge to be a quest for a new "certified" high run on "any" table. thoughts?

Willie's record was set on an eight foot table. It is documented on the affidavit of the witnesses as can be seen here. (http://americanhistory.si.edu/archives/images/d9744-4.jpg) I also want to say the pockets were large, maybe 5 1/2" but I can't quote a source on that one. I know Dyer has a chapter dedicated to the Mosconi run in " The Hustler and The Champ." If you give some of todays players a table with the same specs that Mosconi ran 526 on, I think the record would be broken relatively quickly.

The record was also set in Springfield, OH. I think if the record's going to be broken it shoot be done in Springfield. I say this for selfish reasons, as that is an easy drive for me to witness the million dollar spectacle.

bfdlad
03-20-2008, 09:37 AM
Everyone,
I have always wanted to see pool's most known record (Mosconi running 526) challenged and possibly eclipsed. I have been an avid player and lifelong fan of pool. I am very fortunate to be in a financial position to do something in pool for both mine and "the pool world's" satisfaction. Since I no longer play pool I really want to see someone break the 526 mark. I want to try to find sponsership or to try to obtain an insurance policy (i.e Lloyd's of London) in conjunction with a sizable contribution from my own funds, to see if I could raise a guaranteed 1 million prize to anyone that could break Willie's 526. I want to set up a "loose" if possible Diamond at most major tournaments and charge a nominal ($100) entry to try and find a champion to run 527. I am willing to put my money in this venture if I can secure a policy or additional sponsership to make this happen. Anyone that has any ideas please share them with me. Fortunatly I am in a position where I can make something like this happen and it would be great for the game. It may draw interest to a lost artform (14.1) Greg Sullivan please PM me with a way to get a hold of you I would like your input about your tables for this. This could be like the million dollar challenge that Earl won, but with this whomever could break the record would get the advertised prize (whatever that would be I want to at least make it a mill, I will heavily support this). I think I can make this happen any ideas please share them.
In doing some research before on something simular I found that there is a company that specializes in this kind of thing. They do things like hole in one contests etc and they pay Millions out every year. Although everyones ideas on how to put this together are great, the company that insures it will be making pretty much all the calls. If you look up Hole in one contests I am sure that you will find this company. I could find it but it will take me a while. I spoke to them before as I said and this will also make it so that you don't have to put your own $$ in. Let me know if you don't find it and I will make sure that I get it for you. Let me know,

BillYards
03-20-2008, 09:37 AM
I am pretty sure the actual table is still around. Somebody said they had seen it a few years back...

I don't think an insurance company will bite on the million dollar prize. Sponsors, entry fees, pay per view, etc. will have to pay for this.

bfdlad
03-20-2008, 09:39 AM
I am pretty sure the actual table is still around. Somebody said they had seen it a few years back...

I don't think an insurance company will bite on the million dollar prize. Sponsors, entry fees, pay per view, etc. will have to pay for this.
See post #33. There is a company out there, I was going to do something like make the 9 on the break at an event. It was for less $$ but they told me they do million dollar deals all over the world for different sports.

Johnnyt
03-20-2008, 09:41 AM
Insurance companies don't gamble anymore. They only sign you up if THEY HAVE THE NUTS. Johnnyt

ShootingArts
03-20-2008, 10:03 AM
Jim,

The game is as much or more about positioning the cue ball and breaking out balls than it is about making balls. Having played a lot of pool in general on seven, eight, and nine foot tables, I do believe the eight footer is the easiest to play on. It doesn't have the congestion of a seven footer or the distances of the nine footer.

Although I never really played 14.1, I did play a lot of snooker where the playing style is quite similar since the goal for most of the game is to make a red ball and the seven over and over using the two corner pockets almost exclusively. Every extra inch the cue ball had to travel to accomplish another goal after hitting the object ball was a big deal.

The pockets, table size, the balls and how clean they are, everything becomes a big deal when trying to run over 37 racks without a miss. To break Mosconi's record we would indeed need the exact conditions but we would not have a new record for the next person to shoot for unless we again set up the same conditions. I think it makes far more sense to set up a typical table and establish a new record on it. Harder to do but once done it is a record that can be readily shot for again.

I do think that any new 14.1 record chased by the world's best and shot in public for a huge prize will be accepted as the new world record and that is the key. Many people would disagree that Willie Mosconi has the highest run in history. Far fewer would disagree that he has the accepted world record. A new generally accepted world record seems to be the goal here.

Hu


The event proposed is, in effect, an exhibition. I agree that the table was "non-standard" since the proposition is specifically to beat the Mosconi record, then the only thing to do would be to duplicate the playing conditions as closely as possible.

Any record set on a 9 ft. table would be a record unto itself and would have nothing to do with the MOSCONI record.

However, since the vast majority of shots in 14.1 take place on the lower half of the table, the difference between a 9 ft. and 8 ft. table would produce a MAXIMUM distance differential of only 6 inches and a median differential of only about 3 inches so the table size is not a big deal IMHO.

Regards,
Jim

Bob Jewett
03-20-2008, 10:41 AM
... I really want to see someone break the 526 mark ...
I see several problems with your plan as outlined.

I may have misread him, but I don't think Greg Sullivan is interested in setting a record with a loose table. He would like to see 200 on a standard table and he continues to offer a prize for that at DCC.

I'm willing to bet that no insurance company will underwrite a long-term competition like you describe unless the premium is over $500,000 and the time is limited to a year or some similar length of time. At one of the Sang Lee 3-cushion tournaments, there was a $1,000,000 prize offered if a player could match ball placement from a break shot by Blomdahl, but that was underwritten by a carom fan who happened to have $1,000,000 in his pocket. Lightning didn't strike. The shooter got only one try.

The highest per-inning straight pool average seen so far at DCC was something like 62 by Immonen in 2007. I doubt that anyone can maintain that kind of average for a year. I think a reasonable working average is closer to 45, and maybe 20 players could achieve that over the long haul. It is not hard to figure how many tries it will take to reach 527 with an average of 45 balls per inning. It turns out to be a 1 in 140000 shot. About 6 million balls will be pocketed during the unsuccessful attempts. At 20 seconds per shot, that's two million minutes spent, or 34,000 hours of play.

If you assume that the average level of 14.1 play by the competitors will raise itself up to 60 BPI, then 527 becomes a 1 in 7000 shot, and you only need two thousand hours of play. Maybe that will happen, but I don't think so.

And you will need to worry about playing conditions. If you get one skid in 200 shots, most of the potential 500-ball runs will be ruined.

For more on high-run statistics, see http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2006-06.pdf

bsmutz
03-20-2008, 11:53 AM
Exactly. A new world record. My feeling on the matter is that a specific time should be allotted (like a year or two, maybe) and whoever makes the highest run over 526 during that time gets the cheese.

iba7467
03-20-2008, 12:54 PM
Exactly. A new world record. My feeling on the matter is that a specific time should be allotted (like a year or two, maybe) and whoever makes the highest run over 526 during that time gets the cheese.

I'd say something like, half the pot for first to break it. Then, half the pot to the overall winner after specified period of time (could be the same person, might not).

huckster
03-20-2008, 07:34 PM
I am pretty sure the actual table is still around. Somebody said they had seen it a few years back...

I don't think an insurance company will bite on the million dollar prize. Sponsors, entry fees, pay per view, etc. will have to pay for this.

Lloyds of London has insured football players knees, actress's legs, Jim Palmer's elbow etc. With enough research and high premiums they will insure anything if they deem it profitable. Most are assuming this record will be broken. I just want to add a great incentive and see where it goes. I plan to get the ball rolling after the Holiday weekend. Anyone whom has experiance with writing a policy like I am seeking please contact me. I'm not looking for notoriety profitability or anything like that. I'm a fan and I think some of the pool greats deserve a chance at a life changing prize. Trust me if I could earn the amount of money that I have earned playing pool I would. It is not an easy life with no retirement options save any investments that occured. Guys like Johnny, Earl, John S, deserve a pot of gold for there dilligence.

huckster
03-20-2008, 07:52 PM
I see several problems with your plan as outlined.

I may have misread him, but I don't think Greg Sullivan is interested in setting a record with a loose table. He would like to see 200 on a standard table and he continues to offer a prize for that at DCC.

I'm willing to bet that no insurance company will underwrite a long-term competition like you describe unless the premium is over $500,000 and the time is limited to a year or some similar length of time. At one of the Sang Lee 3-cushion tournaments, there was a $1,000,000 prize offered if a player could match ball placement from a break shot by Blomdahl, but that was underwritten by a carom fan who happened to have $1,000,000 in his pocket. Lightning didn't strike. The shooter got only one try.

The highest per-inning straight pool average seen so far at DCC was something like 62 by Immonen in 2007. I doubt that anyone can maintain that kind of average for a year. I think a reasonable working average is closer to 45, and maybe 20 players could achieve that over the long haul. It is not hard to figure how many tries it will take to reach 527 with an average of 45 balls per inning. It turns out to be a 1 in 140000 shot. About 6 million balls will be pocketed during the unsuccessful attempts. At 20 seconds per shot, that's two million minutes spent, or 34,000 hours of play.

If you assume that the average level of 14.1 play by the competitors will raise itself up to 60 BPI, then 527 becomes a 1 in 7000 shot, and you only need two thousand hours of play. Maybe that will happen, but I don't think so.

And you will need to worry about playing conditions. If you get one skid in 200 shots, most of the potential 500-ball runs will be ruined.

For more on high-run statistics, see http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2006-06.pdf

Bob,
I respect your opinon a great deal. I want to make it happen and I understand the "hardcore" industry people (yourself, Greg Sullivan, etc) may not be interested in setting a record on a "looser" table. I do not care if the conditions (8 foot, bucket pocket Brunswick) are duplicated. The public pool fan knows 526 like baseball fans knew 61 or 755. I want to reward a straight pool great with the chance to make a lot of money. If Lloyd's of london or someone else will not underwrite the policy I will post it. It's my scratch and trust me I earned it, but what money is for to enjoy. I play some of the highest stake poker games spread and it's not about the money It is what I enjoy. My whole life I have been around pool and I am very lucky to find myself in a position to really make this happen. If I blow a million I will do it with my intentions being fufilled. I have no desire to fund a pool tour, etc. I want to see if 526 can be broken with some pressure applied and a way to qualify to get the oppurtunity. I have some associates who also may be interested in my venture. With that being said do you think it is possible in say a 5 year time table hosting the event at say Derby City, the US Open the WPC, and maybe the Mosconi Cup the number 526 could be broken?

curly
03-20-2008, 08:12 PM
Yes. I was waiting for someone to bring that up. I don't believe any of the 1000000 people that say / said they were there in that SMALL place know for sure what size pockets he was shooting into. I say if your going to do it, make it a new world record on a 4 1/2X9 table. Johnnyt

Johnnyt, I agree with you. Do it on a 9 foot table. Huckster, good luck with your idea! I think it's great and it would bring straightpool back into popularity for sure! Maybe TAR would be interested in documenting something like this? We could watch it at home! I'd pay to view it for the month or whatever! Have a table or two dedicated to this and it doesn't have to be at another associated event. What a fantastic opportunity to stimulate interest again in straightpool!

Curly

ghostball
03-20-2008, 08:21 PM
You should check if WILLIES run may have been on a 4by8 table.

bluepepper
03-20-2008, 08:33 PM
Just thinking what might happen if someone breaks the Mosconi record. People will start suggesting that Babe Cranfield's 768 is the true target. And who knows for sure what kind of table Cranfield used or that he did it at all? Who were the witnesses?

It seems that the Cranfield record has the taint of being during practice. The Mosconi record has the taint of being on a 4 by 8.
Who and how many have to witness a high run and on what size table with what size pockets and under what circumstances?

We need regulations to start a new era. It isn't straight pool. It's high run 14.1 --- a completely different game. No safeties. Ball in hand to start. Start over if you miss. I don't know, whatever. But a new game with rules and officials and video.

I think Bob Jewett already started that new era with his challenge. Maybe what you should do is to simply add incentive to that challenge by adding money. Players will be practicing there arses off, and in time will break what most see as "the" record. And we'll all have it on DVD! No disputes. The runs may take a while to get up there but they'll most certainly get higher all the time, because the players today are incredible shooters. They just need time and incentive to practice the patterns and discipline. Stick Mosconi's or Cranfield's mind inside one of these shooters and you've got a 1000 ball run in the making.

Here's a link to a page that has high runs listed for many players. Where did they get this information? Are these runs reported by the players? Did they have to be witnessed? Anyone know?
http://hermund.ardalen.com/straightpoolhighruns.htm

The site shows Min-Wai Chin as 500 plus. Who saw it? Who saw Engert's run of 492?
Thanks,
Jeff

av84fun
03-20-2008, 08:48 PM
Jim,

The game is as much or more about positioning the cue ball and breaking out balls than it is about making balls. Having played a lot of pool in general on seven, eight, and nine foot tables, I do believe the eight footer is the easiest to play on. It doesn't have the congestion of a seven footer or the distances of the nine footer.

Although I never really played 14.1, I did play a lot of snooker where the playing style is quite similar since the goal for most of the game is to make a red ball and the seven over and over using the two corner pockets almost exclusively. Every extra inch the cue ball had to travel to accomplish another goal after hitting the object ball was a big deal.

The pockets, table size, the balls and how clean they are, everything becomes a big deal when trying to run over 37 racks without a miss. To break Mosconi's record we would indeed need the exact conditions but we would not have a new record for the next person to shoot for unless we again set up the same conditions. I think it makes far more sense to set up a typical table and establish a new record on it. Harder to do but once done it is a record that can be readily shot for again.

I do think that any new 14.1 record chased by the world's best and shot in public for a huge prize will be accepted as the new world record and that is the key. Many people would disagree that Willie Mosconi has the highest run in history. Far fewer would disagree that he has the accepted world record. A new generally accepted world record seems to be the goal here.

Hu

As always, I respect your views. But there is little historical precedent for your view that to establish a new record, the exact conditions of the former record must be in place.

Players who established new home run...batting average records etc. didn't use the same bats, the same ball parks (some of which were torn down and replaced) etc.

In tennis and golf, enormous fundamental changes have taken place.

About the only major sport that hasn't changed (venue/equipment) is basketball...BUT...the PLAYERS have changed Not too many 6'6" GUARDS in 1960!

So, as long as the table length, pocket specs and cloth are matched as closely as possible, any new event would be MUCH closer to former conditions as almost any other record breaking attempt in modern history.

As for 9 ft. vs. 8 ft tables are concerned, the math is as I suggested it was and 3 inches of width (from center line to side rails) and 6 inches (from center spot to foot rail) just is no big deal.

But regardless, the OP's proposition is to fund a competition to break MOSCONI'S record and enlarging the field of play or making the pockets more difficult would result in NOT challenging the MOSCONI record but setting a NEW AND DIFFERENT record.

That's fine too. I have no problem with setting NEW types of records. But doing so is not what the OP's referred to.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
03-20-2008, 09:03 PM
Again, I have enormous respect for what Huckster is trying to do and as successful as he has been, he already knows that he should march to the beat of his own drummer.

My only input is that given the odds I and Bob have quoted, there is likely no player in the world who believes he would break the record.

Many would give it a try...for the same reason people buy lottery tickets in spite of 13 million to 1 odds against winning.

But what they won't do, IMHO, is to spend any money for travel expenses etc. They would only compete if such a challenge took place before or after a tournament they plan to attend anyway.

But again...BRAVO for caring as much as you do about 14.1 and your interest in promoting interest in that game.

Regards,
Jim

Fatboy
03-20-2008, 09:16 PM
i think it is possible on a 9' box with 4 3/4" buckets, it wouldnt be a bad investment to stake certain players and cover the $100 a pop fee, you might be into it $50,000 but you would still be getting over 20-1 on the $$$ before you cut it up with the player, a few guys have come close in the past couple years and with real $$ on the line there would be enough interest to get serious about it,


I dont know what the "Hole in one" insurance would cost thru Lloyds, but the premium would eat up some of the $100 attempt fee(Lloyds aint cheap they insure one of my houses) and the cost of running it would as well. the prize $$$ would have to be secured in an escrow with clear rules about the pay-off before there would be anyone who would be serious about it, Earl got robbed on a similar prop bet, the IPT didnt go so well for lots of reasons, so without a iron clad guarantee particapation would be low.

ShootingArts
03-20-2008, 09:43 PM
Jim,

I respect your opinion also, definitely discussion here and not argument. The OP does seem to want to set the new record on more typical equipment according to some of his posts. You are right that it isn't the same record from a realistic standpoint. However I think the new record, if one is set, will be seen as bettering Mosconi's record unless it was to be set on much easier equipment. I think that the idea is to try to replace one generally accepted high run record with another generally accepted high run record and this competition should be able to do that. Perception is what will count as far as the widespread acceptance of any new record goes.

Hu




But regardless, the OP's proposition is to fund a competition to break MOSCONI'S record and enlarging the field of play or making the pockets more difficult would result in NOT challenging the MOSCONI record but setting a NEW AND DIFFERENT record.

That's fine too. I have no problem with setting NEW types of records. But doing so is not what the OP's referred to.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
03-21-2008, 12:50 AM
Jim,

I respect your opinion also, definitely discussion here and not argument. The OP does seem to want to set the new record on more typical equipment according to some of his posts. You are right that it isn't the same record from a realistic standpoint. However I think the new record, if one is set, will be seen as bettering Mosconi's record unless it was to be set on much easier equipment. I think that the idea is to try to replace one generally accepted high run record with another generally accepted high run record and this competition should be able to do that. Perception is what will count as far as the widespread acceptance of any new record goes.

Hu

Yep...I fully agree.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
03-21-2008, 01:02 AM
For Huckster...I looked around for hole in one insurance as a proxy for insuring against the 526 run and found the following:

The price of hole-in-one insurance is based on three things:

The value of the main prize, such as a car or cash.
The number of participants that will be playing in the event. The insurance company might automatically cover up to 144 golfers, with an additional charge for each participant over 144. They also need to know if any professionals are in the field?club or tour?because their presence increases the premium as a result of their higher skill level.
The yardage of the main prize hole from which golfers will be taking their shot. Most companies require that this be a minimum of 150 yards while other companies require a minimum of 165 or even 175 yards.
The cost of a premium is generally 2-4 percent of the grand prize value.

That would be $40k for a million cash. There certainly would be an upcharge for pros vs. amateurs but on the other hand, the 14.1 event would be limited to a dozen or two in the world who would have any chance at all...not 144 players so I would guess those two variables would about wash.

The 4% premium underwrites a 25-1 shot when, in fact, a hole in one...even for pros...has to be AT LEAST 50-1 even on a par 3 they know very well...probably closer to 100-1 but that's why insurance companies own those big buildings!

A knowledgable underwriter would probably rate a 526 run as being at least as unlikely as a hole in one and so my guess is that insuring against such a thing wouldn't cost more than $40k for a single event with each contestant getting one chance.

In fact, that would be about the easiest 40 grand anyone has ever made IMHO.

Regards,
Jim

Bob Jewett
03-21-2008, 10:11 AM
... With that being said do you think it is possible in say a 5 year time table hosting the event at say Derby City, the US Open the WPC, and maybe the Mosconi Cup the number 526 could be broken?
As I pointed out, if the competitors are averaging 60 BPI, you will need about 2000 hours of play to be odds-on to have a 527 run. For Engert (491, not 492, as reported on the high-run page cited above), Hohmann (404 and not 408?), Schmidt (404, not 400), Cranfield (768) and Eufemia (625 and not 626), it seems that all of the high runs were set in home rooms or on familiar tables. The exception to this is Mosconi, as reported by Charlie Ursitti, who had his 700+ on a practice table that he may not have seen before.

It is unlikely you will average more than 40 hours of play per event if you have a single table. That says that you might have to go to 50 events. If you do that, you will need to find some way other than the lure of a final, large prize to get the players to play for that many hours.

Fatboy
03-21-2008, 11:17 AM
Bonds broke the HR record using Roids, perhaps if we put John Schmit on a few cycles of roids he might have a better chance. Are we gonna drug test? :D :D

^^^^my dumb friday joke. :)

HOB Weert
03-21-2008, 11:33 AM
As a close friend of Thomas Engert and he plays in my club, i can tell you that at 490 he broke the rack perfect, and then missed a hanger!
More then a dozen people were witness of his high run.
It was played on a 9 ft. table with normal pockets, or maybe even a little tighter...

MH
HOB Weert

bluepepper
03-21-2008, 01:45 PM
As a close friend of Thomas Engert and he plays in my club, i can tell you that at 490 he broke the rack perfect, and then missed a hanger!
More then a dozen people were witness of his high run.
It was played on a 9 ft. table with normal pockets, or maybe even a little tighter...

MH
HOB Weert

Thanks. I'm a fan. I love his rhythm and stroke.
Jeff

JoeyA
03-21-2008, 04:42 PM
Whatever my representation can work out with them then I will make sure that it happens. I need to talk to Pat Fleming, Greg Sullivan, about getting them onboard as far as using there products. I really am not looking at this as a buisness venture I have nothing to gain but hopefully we could see an intrest in pool occur, and the level of play would increase. Also a lot of players that do not come to the USA would take some shots at the prize. A million is just a number I tossed out there I want it to be a mill at least if not 2-3. If I can get this to happen for example I can get someone like Lloyd's involved, I will be more then happy to pay at least a few years premium's to make this happen. I have an idea what the premium may be (ballpark) and these speciality policies are quite costly but I don't care. I can't take my money with me when I die and after making so much the excess does not have a purpose for me I want to enjoy things in life, and this would be interesting, and good for the game.

If the run were recorded, additional revenues could be generated from sales of the video and narration by the player as to what he was thinking at different points in the run.

JoeyA

Bob Jewett
03-21-2008, 04:53 PM
If the run were recorded, additional revenues could be generated from sales of the video and narration by the player as to what he was thinking at different points in the run.

JoeyA
Sure, but at an additional cost of about $50,000 if you figure there will about 2000 hours of play to tape before you break the record.

JoeyA
03-21-2008, 08:09 PM
Sure, but at an additional cost of about $50,000 if you figure there will about 2000 hours of play to tape before you break the record.

Could the attempts be recorded on computer hard drives and just continue to re-write the drives as they became full or the feat was completed?

FTR, I don't think it is a matter of can 526 be broken and recorded. It is merely a matter of motivation and the money Huckster is talking about is plenty enough to inspire the best and the not so good to make the attempt.

I would be most concerned about determining the qualifications for this feat. The feat has to be accomplished according to a set of strict criteria so that there is no, "but he did it by using blah blah blah....".

JoeyA

JoeyA
03-21-2008, 08:11 PM
Sure, but at an additional cost of about $50,000 if you figure there will about 2000 hours of play to tape before you break the record.

And what do you think the world would pay today to have the 526 run of Mosconi on video?
JoeyA

HollyWood
03-21-2008, 10:28 PM
I think it was Cisero Murphy.should be easy to look up. Or ask Jay Hefert he probibly was there. I also think Mr. Hal Houle could shed some light on how players were chosen in the day. There were players who were not allowed to play in these tournements! You have to use a 4-8 in my opionon and you will get more takers on the 4-8 table(with straight pool). Attempting the challenge. mark