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View Full Version : What expectations should a buyer have when they purchase a Custom Cue


manwon
04-25-2008, 03:18 PM
Hello Az Billiards, there have been a number of problems encountered by members who purchase Custom Cues on the forum lately. I think that many of these buyers have legitiment complains concerning their treatment during some of these transactions.

#NOTE# First let me say that it is not the forum owners responsibility to Police the transactions and it is also in no way their responsibility when a transaction is not completed to the satisfaction of those concerned parties.

I for one am totally sick of the behavior that is common place by some of our membership. I have been a member since 2005 and I found no better Billiards forum on the Internet. I post and support many forums, however, I have personally learned more here than on any other forum to date. My purpose for being here is to share the little that I know, and to learn as much as possible above what I love Billiards History, Cue making History, and Custom Cue making. Having said this I feel a bond with many people here on this forum, the wealth of knowledge in all the areas I have listed above is tremendous.

In my opinion the forum membership as a whole must protect each other and treat each other like an extended family. When a forum member is out of line we should contact them through Pm and explain what we see, and how we feel. There is no need for being disrespectful, because at times we all certainly show our collective back sides. But when we are wrong sometimes we do not see it without the help of others pointing out our mistakes.

When a single forum member has problems with transactions in the for sale / trade section of the forum THAT ARE LEGITIMET the forum as a whole must ban together to not only help correct the problems, but also to stop others and especially our new membership from falling into the same trap.

To all forum members, when you enter into a transaction with others here, you are doing so at your own risk. You must read between the lines, and by this I am saying do not go completely by what others say (because it may be Hype and babble that has been bought). Do not go completely by a persons Green Squares used for reputation (because they can be bought). Do not go competely by a members I-trader recommendations ( because they can also be bought). Please take the time to reseach the individual you are dealing with, by reading their posts / threads and then by contacting privately other long standing members for a recommendation on the individuals creditbility, Honesty, and integrity.

What I ask for is the input of all forum members on this subject, everyones opinion is needed, our strength is in numbers and unity.

Thanks for listening / reading and please think about what is being said here, if some one knows that something is wrong and does nothing about it they are also part of the problem.

Kid Dynomite
04-25-2008, 03:54 PM
I must thank you for a very sincere post.

I do not buy much and am really picky as to what I buy. Lately, it is getting more and more difficult. Some take pay-pal. Some take only money orders, some will escrow and some will not. The whole pay pal thing really sucks if you ask me. It was the easiest and safest way to buy online. it is ashame that even that is no longer a viable way to do business.

I have recommended an AZB Most Wanted section for stolen cues and transaction reports and got no response or very little support.

You really have to ready their post and search each thread for any negative comments and it sucks and takes forever!

I want to know if anyone has ever used western union to send money and if western union has the same problems as PAYPAL????? I was looking online to buy a money order via the internet and was wondering if it is safe??? Slightly more expensive I believe but that can be worked out between buyer and seller.

Sincerely,
Kid Dynomite

JimS
04-25-2008, 04:34 PM
I voted there is never an excuse but I suppose there MIGHT be in some very rare cases. For example: I can see someone who lives alone being in an accident and in the hospital for a while being a reason for no communication.

If difficult situations arise and these situations are explainable they MUST be explained. Lack of communication indicates, imo, lack of desire to do the right thing.

qbilder
04-25-2008, 04:43 PM
Communication is key. I don't stress over deadlines or people waiting, but i'm always there to answer questions & when they get tired of waiting I don't mind if they move on, and when they get rude or pushy then I don't mind telling them to move on. But i'm always in communication. The exception is if i'm on vacation, which I take roughly 5 times per year, don't even think for a minute i'm going to be near a computer or answering my phone. Otherwise, i'm always game for talking or just plain BS. And if anybody has paid, refunds are always an option as I keep plenty around to refund ANY money that has been paid to me. I don't spend a dime until the player has cue in hand & is happy. I'm a unique guy, build unique cues, and if somebody wants one then expect a unique experience getting it.

manwon
04-25-2008, 05:02 PM
Communication is key. I don't stress over deadlines or people waiting, but i'm always there to answer questions & when they get tired of waiting I don't mind if they move on, and when they get rude or pushy then I don't mind telling them to move on. But i'm always in communication. The exception is if i'm on vacation, which I take roughly 5 times per year, don't even think for a minute i'm going to be near a computer or answering my phone. Otherwise, i'm always game for talking or just plain BS. And if anybody has paid, refunds are always an option as I keep plenty around to refund ANY money that has been paid to me. I don't spend a dime until the player has cue in hand & is happy. I'm a unique guy, build unique cues, and if somebody wants one then expect a unique experience getting it.


I'm a unique guy, build unique cues, and if somebody wants one then expect a unique experience getting it.[/QUOTE]

It is unfortunate that more people do not follow your value system today. Your business ethics and the professional manner in which you have chosen to do business will only further enhance your business.

Thanks for your post

manwon
04-25-2008, 05:03 PM
I voted there is never an excuse but I suppose there MIGHT be in some very rare cases. For example: I can see someone who lives alone being in an accident and in the hospital for a while being a reason for no communication.

If difficult situations arise and these situations are explainable they MUST be explained. Lack of communication indicates, imo, lack of desire to do the right thing.

I totally agree Jim!!

Thanks for your post!!!

manwon
04-25-2008, 05:04 PM
I must thank you for a very sincere post.

I do not buy much and am really picky as to what I buy. Lately, it is getting more and more difficult. Some take pay-pal. Some take only money orders, some will escrow and some will not. The whole pay pal thing really sucks if you ask me. It was the easiest and safest way to buy online. it is ashame that even that is no longer a viable way to do business.

I have recommended an AZB Most Wanted section for stolen cues and transaction reports and got no response or very little support.

You really have to ready their post and search each thread for any negative comments and it sucks and takes forever!

I want to know if anyone has ever used western union to send money and if western union has the same problems as PAYPAL????? I was looking online to buy a money order via the internet and was wondering if it is safe??? Slightly more expensive I believe but that can be worked out between buyer and seller.

Sincerely,
Kid Dynomite

Thanks very much for your insight, and I think you have brought up some very good points.

Thanks

masonh
04-25-2008, 06:17 PM
I want to know if anyone has ever used western union to send money and if western union has the same problems as PAYPAL????? I was looking online to buy a money order via the internet and was wondering if it is safe??? Slightly more expensive I believe but that can be worked out between buyer and seller.






it is the least safe method to send money.i like to get a USPS money order and send it registered mail if i was leary of the seller.you have recourse with the USPS Postal Inspector,and most people do not want to mess with him.

hoosier_cues
04-25-2008, 07:13 PM
it is the least safe method to send money.i like to get a USPS money order and send it registered mail if i was leary of the seller.you have recourse with the USPS Postal Inspector,and most people do not want to mess with him.
Only thing worst IMO is the IRS.

HollyWood
04-25-2008, 08:15 PM
I went to an advertised Cue Salesperson home last night and today. Some people have heard of( Mr. Paul Rubino)? He sent a friend a High end Cue, the salesperson hasn't but spoken a couple words with Paul. As player I hope this cue can be replicated(-George Balabuska- technics,) has a big smile on his face today. Because it was assembled with some of georges methods. Its an oak titlist conversion -with aqua ,white,green purple and pink. That is un believable,troy handed it to me from the box. I tried telling troy you look first,you touch it. he insisted I get the first look, and we passed right over a ts conversion-go figure. The reason that I'm bringing it up is( the cue maker wants to have a cue on troys website! For this act I am personally thanking Mr.Paul Rubino- for this amazing, honesty displayed by this cue maker, If half were like this we would definetly never have a dissatisfied customer.And I thank openly TS and MC for working with Troy as well. Troy well be posting the pictures, put this cue intoo a players hand- because it's totaslly harmonic vibrations , resonate about 20 seconds min. I should deelite this post because I just may call troy and never let someone touch it again, this cue come with more promensce possible. Somebody intested better call troy or get it photographed, It is a masterpiece and the price is no nowhere out of line. mark

ShootingArts
04-25-2008, 08:17 PM
Reasonable communication is a must. However, I have had customers that if I only spent the time that single customer desired talking to them I would have lost 20-25% of my work time every day! Four or five customers like that and keeping them happy on the phone would have insured I never made a chip.

Any one man or small shop has to budget time wisely. That means that time has to be set aside for dealing with customers and suppliers and time has to be set aside to turn out work or you have to be brief when dealing with phone calls during the work day. Let the phone or the work get out of balance and your business will suffer.

On the same subject, when someone drops in to visit and I keep working while I talk, I'm not being rude. There is a saying in the machine shop business, "if the chips aren't flying you're dying!" The same is true in any small shop. Sitting around visiting is pleasant but it doesn't pay the nut or put beans on the table. I can't stop and visit an hour or two any more than I can go to most people's job and them stop work for the same amount of time to visit with me.

Hu

CocoboloCowboy
04-25-2008, 08:17 PM
Hello Az Billiards, there have been a number of problems encountered by members who purchase Custom Cues on the forum lately. I think that many of these buyers have legitiment complains concerning their treatment during some of these transactions.

#NOTE# First let me say that it is not the forum owners responsibility to Police the transactions and it is also in no way their responsibility when a transaction is not completed to the satisfaction of those concerned parties.

I for one am totally sick of the behavior that is common place by some of our membership. I have been a member since 2005 and I found no better Billiards forum on the Internet. I post and support many forums, however, I have personally learned more here than on any other forum to date. My purpose for being here is to share the little that I know, and to learn as much as possible above what I love Billiards History, Cue making History, and Custom Cue making. Having said this I feel a bond with many people here on this forum, the wealth of knowledge in all the areas I have listed above is tremendous.

In my opinion the forum membership as a whole must protect each other and treat each other like an extended family. When a forum member is out of line we should contact them through Pm and explain what we see, and how we feel. There is no need for being disrespectful, because at times we all certainly show our collective back sides. But when we are wrong sometimes we do not see it without the help of others pointing out our mistakes.

When a single forum member has problems with transactions in the for sale / trade section of the forum THAT ARE LEGITIMET the forum as a whole must ban together to not only help correct the problems, but also to stop others and especially our new membership from falling into the same trap.

To all forum members, when you enter into a transaction with others here, you are doing so at your own risk. You must read between the lines, and by this I am saying do not go completely by what others say (because it may be Hype and babble that has been bought). Do not go completely by a persons Green Squares used for reputation (because they can be bought). Do not go competely by a members I-trader recommendations ( because they can also be bought). Please take the time to reseach the individual you are dealing with, by reading their posts / threads and then by contacting privately other long standing members for a recommendation on the individuals creditbility, Honesty, and integrity.

What I ask for is the input of all forum members on this subject, everyones opinion is needed, our strength is in numbers and unity.

Thanks for listening / reading and please think about what is being said here, if some one knows that something is wrong and does nothing about it they are also part of the problem.







Interesting question.:)

pooltableproCP
04-25-2008, 08:20 PM
I voted for "other"

People should understand that things happen, but should expect a reasonable amount of honest communication.

manwon
04-25-2008, 09:24 PM
Reasonable communication is a must. However, I have had customers that if I only spent the time that single customer desired talking to them I would have lost 20-25% of my work time every day! Four or five customers like that and keeping them happy on the phone would have insured I never made a chip.

Any one man or small shop has to budget time wisely. That means that time has to be set aside for dealing with customers and suppliers and time has to be set aside to turn out work or you have to be brief when dealing with phone calls during the work day. Let the phone or the work get out of balance and your business will suffer.

On the same subject, when someone drops in to visit and I keep working while I talk, I'm not being rude. There is a saying in the machine shop business, "if the chips aren't flying you're dying!" The same is true in any small shop. Sitting around visiting is pleasant but it doesn't pay the nut or put beans on the table. I can't stop and visit an hour or two any more than I can go to most people's job and them stop work for the same amount of time to visit with me.

Hu

Thanks Hu, that is a very logical approach to Business. However, recently around 10 members of the forum are having trouble contacting a cue maker. The gentleman took deposits and full payments and to date the customers have not received their cues, of which some are a year late. He refuses to contact the customers and they have no way to contact him.

Hu in my opinion, there is no excuse for this behavior, and I hope things work out.

have a good night!!!!!

ShootingArts
04-25-2008, 09:58 PM
Craig,

Needless to say, that is less than reasonable. A word of warning to all, seemingly 99% of the time it is a mistake to pay everything up front for anything. Most people collecting all up front for some projects find themselves with the choice of working for money they have already spent or working for money that they will receive when work is complete. Human nature being what it is, most people will be more inclined to do the work that still has some reward involved for doing it pushing back getting the work out that has no further cash reward for completing.

50% up front, 25% at some completion point and 25% when ready to ship is a reasonable option. So is three thirds or fifty percent up front and fifty percent at completion. The numbers can be juggled endlessly but bottom line is that it is best to keep a carrot in front of all but the most established business people and not bad business to deal with them the same way.

I have missed or forgotten anything I have seen about the cue maker in question and although the post and poll seemed a bit pointed I didn't realize it was pointed at one particular situation.

Sometimes life deals a bad hand beyond our control and that is when communication is vital. Regardless of the situation, if someone is physically able to use the phone or type e-mail they need to get in contact with customers they owe refunds or finished products to. If it is physically impossible to right things at the moment make some arrangements or at least let people know that you intend to work out a way to deal with your obligations as soon as possible. It is as simple as that.

Hu


Thanks Hu, that is a very logical approach to Business. However, recently around 10 members of the forum are having trouble contacting a cue maker. The gentleman took deposits and full payments and to date the customers have not received their cues, of which some are a year late. He refuses to contact the customers and they have no way to contact him.

Hu in my opinion, there is no excuse for this behavior, and I hope things work out.

have a good night!!!!!

manwon
04-25-2008, 10:17 PM
Craig,

Needless to say, that is less than reasonable. A word of warning to all, seemingly 99% of the time it is a mistake to pay everything up front for anything. Most people collecting all up front for some projects find themselves with the choice of working for money they have already spent or working for money that they will receive when work is complete. Human nature being what it is, most people will be more inclined to do the work that still has some reward involved for doing it pushing back getting the work out that has no further cash reward for completing.

50% up front, 25% at some completion point and 25% when ready to ship is a reasonable option. So is three thirds or fifty percent up front and fifty percent at completion. The numbers can be juggled endlessly but bottom line is that it is best to keep a carrot in front of all but the most established business people and not bad business to deal with them the same way.

I have missed or forgotten anything I have seen about the cue maker in question and although the post and poll seemed a bit pointed I didn't realize it was pointed at one particular situation.

Sometimes life deals a bad hand beyond our control and that is when communication is vital. Regardless of the situation, if someone is physically able to use the phone or type e-mail they need to get in contact with customers they owe refunds or finished products to. If it is physically impossible to right things at the moment make some arrangements or at least let people know that you intend to work out a way to deal with your obligations as soon as possible. It is as simple as that.

Hu

Thanks Hu, and have a great night!!

ShootingArts
04-25-2008, 11:04 PM
Thanks Hu, and have a great night!!

OK, I did a little back trailing. Being the ol' hound that I am I found that there appears to have been some claims leading to additional payments and then a failure to deliver on these claims then the silence. If this is an accurate assessment of the situation, the lack of communication is only the final straw. The DA's office might indeed have an interest here.

If the cue maker has any real friends reading these forums they need to tell him to contact the people he is obligated to and try to make peace with them as I have suggested above. None of his present problems will be made better by adding civil and criminal legal issues to the equation which at least appears to be quite possible.

Have a great night yourself. Time for me to snooze awhile, think I might go hit a ball tomorrow just to see if I remember how!

Hu

islandtime
04-25-2008, 11:43 PM
This is a pretty timely thread based on several recent issues... the results of your poll clearly show that most folks share pretty reasonable expectations when doing business with a cuemaker.

It's obvious that there are many talented and dedicated craftsmen building cues... it's a shame that there are those who seem to believe that their talents excuse them from exercising ethical business practices.

In one of the recent threads noting this very issue I was amazed to see several posters excusing the cuemaker and instead taking aim at the clients seeking answers. Seems they were saying: "chill out, it'll be worth the wait"... I'm happy to see that this poll clearly shows those folks to be in a small minority. We can only hope that cuemakers thinking that their talents permit a lack of integrity are an even smaller minority.

thanks for the post...
bob

manwon
04-26-2008, 12:01 AM
This is a pretty timely thread based on several recent issues... the results of your poll clearly show that most folks share pretty reasonable expectations when doing business with a cuemaker.

It's obvious that there are many talented and dedicated craftsmen building cues... it's a shame that there are those who seem to believe that their talents excuse them from exercising ethical business practices.

In one of the recent threads noting this very issue I was amazed to see several posters excusing the cuemaker and instead taking aim at the clients seeking answers. Seems they were saying: "chill out, it'll be worth the wait"... I'm happy to see that this poll clearly shows those folks to be in a small minority. We can only hope that cuemakers thinking that their talents permit a lack of integrity are an even smaller minority.

thanks for the post...
bob

Bob, thanks very much for your post, I truly hope that others take the time to read. I also hope it makes a difference and helps some one else from falling into this trap.

Have a good night Bob!!!!!

branpureza
04-26-2008, 12:23 AM
It's obvious that there are many talented and dedicated craftsmen building cues... it's a shame that there are those who seem to believe that their talents excuse them from exercising ethical business practices.



I concur... but I do think it's funny and kind of ironic that Ernie Gutierrez of Ginacue, who many think is the best cue maker in the world, is always exactly on time with my orders, responds to all my emails the same day, answers the phone every time I call him and actually sounds happy to hear my voice. I also have no reservations about paying him in full even though he only requires a 30% deposit and this is mostly due to the great communication he keeps with me. He could sell cues just as easily if he tripled his wait time and only contacted customers once a year just because he is who he is, but he's not like that... and its things like that that make him head and shoulders above the rest in my opinion.

p.s. I could never wait over a year for a sneaky pete or a jump-break from a cuemaker who wasn't a living legend.

manwon
04-26-2008, 12:57 AM
I concur... but I do think it's funny and kind of ironic that Ernie Gutierrez of Ginacue, who many think is the best cue maker in the world, is always exactly on time with my orders, responds to all my emails the same day, answers the phone every time I call him and actually sounds happy to hear my voice. I also have no reservations about paying him in full even though he only requires a 30% deposit and this is mostly due to the great communication he keeps with me. He could sell cues just as easily if he tripled his wait time and only contacted customers once a year just because he is who he is, but he's not like that... and its things like that that make him head and shoulders above the rest in my opinion.

p.s. I could never wait over a year for a sneaky pete or a jump-break from a cuemaker who wasn't a living legend.

Not even if they were a legend in their own mind!!!!!!!:eek: :D

Thanks for you post!!!!! I completely agree with your view point!!!!!!!!!

nthamix
04-26-2008, 03:39 AM
Manwon, you always have something good to say, I always enjoy reading your 'posts/threads'... This was another good topic...


Brian

manwon
04-26-2008, 12:54 PM
Manwon, you always have something good to say, I always enjoy reading your 'posts/threads'... This was another good topic...


Brian

Thanks Brian, this one needs to stay alive, beause people need to be aware of this.

Snapshot9
04-26-2008, 03:43 PM
Actually, when you buy a custom cue, you enter into an oral contract with the cuemaker, such being in good faith. Your relations during the make time fall under the 'good faith', meaning that they keep you apprised of a completion date, progress on the product, and cooperate with you in answering any questions you might have.

A receipt of your down payment (like 50% upfront) is acknowledgment of that contract you have with the cuemaker. And you should always get a receipt because courts require documented proof most of the time.

A good cuemaker knows that the customer's experience in buying a cue from them is just as important as the product they produce, and will keep them coming back.

Island Drive
04-26-2008, 06:14 PM
In business, communication is the 'essence' of business, as is true in life and love. Without it, failure will be your outcome.

Fatboy
04-26-2008, 06:35 PM
I voted and didnt read the thread.


I'm a business man in a varity of businesses for many years, some of my businesses it is impossible for my customers to reach me, however there is awalys someone in my staff there to be there to handle the customers questions, orders etc. we track the length of time they are on hold and staff the call centers accordinglly so we dont ignore any customer no matter what the case is or how many times they have called, nit in any busibness I have owned have we dodged a customer-even if we havent collected their payment


as a custome of some VERY famous, busy, 10 year wait list cue makers I have never had to wait more than 2 weeks to talk to the cue maker and thats the exception, with out naming who i'm talking about I had never spent a penny with a cue maker who has a 5 years list-he didnt know me from Adam and everytime I called him he either answered the phone or called back within a day or 2, since I have paid him, he still returns my calls or answres the phone like he did BEFORE I paid him. nothing changed after he collected the $$$, infact I didnt know my office paid him and I asked if I had paid him because I was out of the loop and he said yeah your good-I had no clue. he didnt change after he got the $$$, i didnt know he got the $$$. thats how it should be.


nobody in the world cue maker or not can awalys get to the phone on the same day but I dont cae what the chrisis is even a death a dedicated business man will return calls, the day my mom died nobody knew about it, thats how mom wanted it, so in her honor I didnt skip a beat. the only time I'm off the air for maor than 3 days is after a back operation by day 5 i have all my calls returned that need be,


no excuse for not being avaliable to your customers, employees, vendors etc when your a self employeed biz man, any less isnt a biz man its a person acting like one but not walking the walk.


i dont even know why/who this is all about and it dosent matter, biz is biz. i'm not picking sides just stating my opinions from the questions in the poll.

Hambone
04-26-2008, 11:15 PM
I for one am totally sick of the behavior that is common place by some of our membership. I have been a member since 2005 and I found no better Billiards forum on the Internet. I post and support many forums, however, I have personally learned more here than on any other forum to date. My purpose for being here is to share the little that I know, and to learn as much as possible above what I love Billiards History, Cue making History, and Custom Cue making. Having said this I feel a bond with many people here on this forum, the wealth of knowledge in all the areas I have listed above is tremendous.

In my opinion the forum membership as a whole must protect each other and treat each other like an extended family. When a forum member is out of line we should contact them through Pm and explain what we see, and how we feel. There is no need for being disrespectful, because at times we all certainly show our collective back sides. But when we are wrong sometimes we do not see it without the help of others pointing out our mistakes.

When a single forum member has problems with transactions in the for sale / trade section of the forum THAT ARE LEGITIMET the forum as a whole must ban together to not only help correct the problems, but also to stop others and especially our new membership from falling into the same trap.

To all forum members, when you enter into a transaction with others here, you are doing so at your own risk. You must read between the lines, and by this I am saying do not go completely by what others say (because it may be Hype and babble that has been bought). Do not go completely by a persons Green Squares used for reputation (because they can be bought). Do not go competely by a members I-trader recommendations ( because they can also be bought). Please take the time to reseach the individual you are dealing with, by reading their posts / threads and then by contacting privately other long standing members for a recommendation on the individuals creditbility, Honesty, and integrity.

What I ask for is the input of all forum members on this subject, everyones opinion is needed, our strength is in numbers and unity.

Thanks for listening / reading and please think about what is being said here, if some one knows that something is wrong and does nothing about it they are also part of the problem.


Craig, I agree 100% with everything you've wrote here. AZ Billiards has provided a place where cuemakers can come and sell or show their goods without ever leaving home. With a few clicks of a mouse almost 12,000 AZ members can be reached without costing a cuemaker one cent. The AZ community has supported many cuemakers and helped allow them to be paid to work at a job they love. To not communicate or in some cases flat out lie to the members here is nothing short of a slap in the face. Were it not for AZ few of these people would be known out of their home state.

On the positive side I just recently recieved a cue from AZ'er MasonH. Lots of communication, more than fair price, and delivered on time. Not to mention one of the better playing cues I've had. For all of these reasons I've already spoken to him about making another.

Hambone<--may have to get on Manwons list too.

Salamander
04-26-2008, 11:45 PM
Having ordered many custom cues over the years, I've had both pleasant and unpleasant experiances.

The pleasant usually consist of cues that are delivered on time or at least communication explaining a delay. They are built to my expectations.

The unsatisfactory cues are those were the cuemakerer went way beyond the quoted time, without at least some followup as to the delays. Communication is the key...I can certainly make allowances as long as the cuemaker keeps me in the loop.

My biggest problem has been the receipt of cues that are way below expectation. ie....warped, bad finish, rattling, etc....I've had cuemakers that have stood behind their product (as they should). I've also had cuemakers that drop you like a hot potato as soon as the cue is delivered, regardless whether there are legitimate problems or not.

As a result, I no longer do business with "new" cuemakers. I only deal with experianced cuemakers that have been around awhile. For that reason, I'm willing to pay a little more for their expertise.

Doug

manwon
04-27-2008, 12:03 AM
I voted and didnt read the thread.


I'm a business man in a varity of businesses for many years, some of my businesses it is impossible for my customers to reach me, however there is awalys someone in my staff there to be there to handle the customers questions, orders etc. we track the length of time they are on hold and staff the call centers accordinglly so we dont ignore any customer no matter what the case is or how many times they have called, nit in any busibness I have owned have we dodged a customer-even if we havent collected their payment


as a custome of some VERY famous, busy, 10 year wait list cue makers I have never had to wait more than 2 weeks to talk to the cue maker and thats the exception, with out naming who i'm talking about I had never spent a penny with a cue maker who has a 5 years list-he didnt know me from Adam and everytime I called him he either answered the phone or called back within a day or 2, since I have paid him, he still returns my calls or answres the phone like he did BEFORE I paid him. nothing changed after he collected the $$$, infact I didnt know my office paid him and I asked if I had paid him because I was out of the loop and he said yeah your good-I had no clue. he didnt change after he got the $$$, i didnt know he got the $$$. thats how it should be.


nobody in the world cue maker or not can awalys get to the phone on the same day but I dont cae what the chrisis is even a death a dedicated business man will return calls, the day my mom died nobody knew about it, thats how mom wanted it, so in her honor I didnt skip a beat. the only time I'm off the air for maor than 3 days is after a back operation by day 5 i have all my calls returned that need be,


no excuse for not being avaliable to your customers, employees, vendors etc when your a self employeed biz man, any less isnt a biz man its a person acting like one but not walking the walk.


i dont even know why/who this is all about and it dosent matter, biz is biz. i'm not picking sides just stating my opinions from the questions in the poll.


Thanks Fatboy, I could not agree more with your thinking, everything you have said is exactly what it takes to be successful in business, and cue making is business.

i dont even know why/who this is all about and it dosent matter, biz is biz. i'm not picking sides just stating my opinions from the questions in the poll.[/

I will tell you what this Poll is about, currently on this forum we have an individual who has taken money from close to 10 fellow members. His name is Kevin Varney, Kevin has fallen off the face of the earth. He will not answer anyones PM, only one member apparently has Kevin's real phone number. This member was helping with communications to Kevin, but even he has stopped posting, not that is his responsibility in the first place. You may have seen the threads that reference this over the last few weeks.

These threads got a little ugly, and they were pulled by the forum because of it. The forum also has a number of people who support Kevin even in these times, which is certainly their right, but it is also is very cold in my opinion.

So while the above situation prompted this Poll, I also think that this should be public. Anyone doing business on this site should be prepared to do business in a professional manner, or be aware that some one is mostly watching and will take the time to expose them.

Fatboy, I do not think today that there is any excuse for a lack of communication. Like you said above, things happen, it may take a few days, however, when it turns into a week or weeks, it is more then just a lack of communication.

Thanks Craig

manwon
04-27-2008, 12:08 AM
Craig, I agree 100% with everything you've wrote here. AZ Billiards has provided a place where cuemakers can come and sell or show their goods without ever leaving home. With a few clicks of a mouse almost 12,000 AZ members can be reached without costing a cuemaker one cent. The AZ community has supported many cuemakers and helped allow them to be paid to work at a job they love. To not communicate or in some cases flat out lie to the members here is nothing short of a slap in the face. Were it not for AZ few of these people would be known out of their home state.

On the positive side I just recently recieved a cue from AZ'er MasonH. Lots of communication, more than fair price, and delivered on time. Not to mention one of the better playing cues I've had. For all of these reasons I've already spoken to him about making another.

Hambone<--may have to get on Manwons list too.

Thanks for the kind words, and I agree that Mason makes a great cue. I have a friend who bought one and loves the way the cue plays. I also agree that we as members need to help expose those who for what ever reason want to take advantage of, or feel theirs needs are above simple communication with other members they have taken money from for product or services.

Have a great night!!!!!!! thanks for your input !!!!

manwon
04-27-2008, 12:11 AM
Having ordered many custom cues over the years, I've had both pleasant and unpleasant experiances.

The pleasant usually consist of cues that are delivered on time or at least communication explaining a delay. They are built to my expectations.

The unsatisfactory cues are those were the cuemakerer went way beyond the quoted time, without at least some followup as to the delays. Communication is the key...I can certainly make allowances as long as the cuemaker keeps me in the loop.

My biggest problem has been the receipt of cues that are way below expectation. ie....warped, bad finish, rattling, etc....I've had cuemakers that have stood behind their product (as they should). I've also had cuemakers that drop you like a hot potato as soon as the cue is delivered, regardless whether there are legitimate problems or not.

As a result, I no longer do business with "new" cuemakers. I only deal with experianced cuemakers that have been around awhile. For that reason, I'm willing to pay a little more for their expertise.

Doug

Hello Doug, I also agree with your opinion on this subject. I also understand the points you made and they are very hard to argue with!!!;)

Thanks very much for the post!!!!

Shawn Armstrong
04-27-2008, 07:34 AM
I recently purchased a custom Joss from Dan Janes. They built the cue to my specs, including an 8pc radially laminated shaft (Joss shaft, non-Pred or OB). Dan talked with me directly during the entire process. He took the deposit as a pending charge on my credit card. He charged it the day the cue shipped. He was literally bang on with his timelines. I got a 5 pointer with 4 veneers and inlays in the butt section for $750. Excellent price from a cuemaker with a reputation beyond repute.

I will NEVER buy a cue from the small guy ever again. Too many problems with the "self righteous" attitude (who truly makes a unique cue? LMAO) of some of the new cuemakers. Dan was down to earth, and did everything I asked. And, he's one of the guys whose actually entitled to have an attitude, with nearly 40 years experience in cuemaking.

TripXQ
04-27-2008, 09:42 AM
I for one do not visit forums much. Too much trash to wade through. So reps and itrade may not reflect my efforts well. I also have a one man shop and there never is enough time in the day to spend hours just talking to individuals. The customer needs to know where he/she stands but they also need to understand they are not the only customer I have. I try hard to answer their questions within a "reasonable" time-frame. Their "reasonable" is not necessarily my "reasonable". There may be extenuating circumstances that requires a delay in my response. The customer always has the right to move on somewhere else if they are not satisfied.

A customer needs to deal directly with the cue maker and not expect him/her to have to go to the "hot forum of the day" to find out if they are happy or not. A $$$ deposit is our contract to start the cue project. Occasional updates along the way with a picture or two is common. Payment details need to be worked out early in the transaction and agreed upon by both parties. Change orders can take extra time and are frequently more expensive. Give the cuemaker time to deal with the intricacies in the cue making process. Wood takes time to age (season) and work properly. Many of us are striving to build high quality playing instruments, not just an aesthetically pleasing artwork. Our reputations are at stake. Quality takes time and patience. Remember the hurry-der I go the behind-er I get. Many of us want to have a "life" also and not have to work 24/7 on cues. Your work IS important but so is our wellbeing.

You are all welcome to visit my website (www.triplecrosscues.com) and email me if you have questions. I will respond in a "reasonable" time.

Tom Gedris, Triple Cross Cues:cool:

manwon
04-30-2008, 05:03 PM
Thanks very much for everyones input, hopefully there will be more in the future. In addition hopefully others will read this and understand what most buyers expect from someone providing a service.

Thanks Craig

HIRUN526
05-01-2008, 05:07 AM
Communication...

When I order a cue I give my spec's and discuss them with the cuemaker after that it's up to him. If there is a wait list I send an email once a year to let the cuemaker know I'm still alive and still want a cue.

Other than that when I place my order I say call me if you have any questions or other ideas about the cue.

Then I wait for the cue. Anything more than that is wasting the cuemakers time.

I mean if you trust the cuemaker enough to order a cue...then trust him.

cueaddicts
05-01-2008, 05:44 AM
Communication...

When I order a cue I give my spec's and discuss them with the cuemaker after that it's up to him. If there is a wait list I send an email once a year to let the cuemaker know I'm still alive and still want a cue.

Other than that when I place my order I say call me if you have any questions or other ideas about the cue.

Then I wait for the cue. Anything more than that is wasting the cuemakers time.

I mean if you trust the cuemaker enough to order a cue...then trust him.

Scott, I agree with your approach....this is basically my approach as well. But that being said, it does hurt (don't know if this is the right word?) when a cuemaker strings you out. I understand that life happens and I have an order with a CM going on 7 years now that was quoted in 2-3. I'm patiently waiting and will stay in touch periodically. But we are all our own individuals and many are much less patient than me....

cueaddicts
05-01-2008, 06:01 AM
With respect to deposits.....philosophically, I don't agree with them. IMO no CM, especially someone that's world class, should require one unless it's a peculiar design or unusual specs. It seems that some guys (especially the newer guys) use deposits to cash flow their business and that doesn't make sense to me. Personally, I don't much like the idea of paying a deposit and knowing that a CM won't start for X number of weeks, months, or years. Think about it, that's like a contractor working on your house that requires a down payment to begin work (those are the guys you want to stay away from). If a CM needs to see commitment from a buyer, a payment halfway through the build and then the balance at the end seems like a better option in my mind.

Just a few random thoughts....

ShootingArts
05-01-2008, 06:18 AM
I don't know of a contractor around here that doesn't collect a deposit up front, at least one payment along the way and then a final payment when work is completed and approved. Likewise, there is nothing wrong with cue makers collecting reasonable deposits. Too many people with stars in their eyes are inclined to start high dollar projects with no idea how they will pay for them. Nothing like getting a substantial deposit up front to make these people consider if they are really ready to make that much of an investment in a cue or if they are just daydreaming at a cuemakers expense.

I do agree that it isn't necessary to get more than a token deposit, if any, to put someone on a waiting list. When I commit materials and time to a certain project I expect some commitment on the buyer's part too. That commitment comes in cash!

When I ran a four to six month waiting list in another business it didn't cost a dime to get on the list. However I didn't start work without knowing that the customer would be willing and able to pay for it on completion. Just good business. Misleading customers or flat lying to them is another story as is collecting large deposits or even 100% deposits upfront and spending the money before you start work.

Hu


With respect to deposits.....philosophically, I don't agree with them. IMO no CM, especially someone that's world class, should require one unless it's a peculiar design or unusual specs. It seems that some guys (especially the newer guys) use deposits to cash flow their business and that doesn't make sense to me. Personally, I don't much like the idea of paying a deposit and knowing that a CM won't start for X number of weeks, months, or years. Think about it, that's like a contractor working on your house that requires a down payment to begin work (those are the guys you want to stay away from). If a CM needs to see commitment from a buyer, a payment halfway through the build and then the balance at the end seems like a better option in my mind.

Just a few random thoughts....

TellsItLikeItIs
05-01-2008, 07:00 AM
There was a time when I might have agreed with you but not now.
Im currently dealing with a young man that ask if I would finance a cue for him (allow him to pay $1100.00 in monthly payments). My build schedule was only 90 days (damn, that sounds familiar doesnt it)!!!

I've received one payment of $100.00 and several excuses. His cue is done and ready to go out the door. Ive done my part, now its time for him to do his. Funny thing though, his phone has been disconnected and his email is no longer valid.

Could I sell the cue? Of course. Will I? No. Ill have the satisfaction of knowing I was more than honest and communicated with him just like I agreed to do.


With respect to deposits.....philosophically, I don't agree with them. IMO no CM, especially someone that's world class, should require one unless it's a peculiar design or unusual specs. It seems that some guys (especially the newer guys) use deposits to cash flow their business and that doesn't make sense to me. Personally, I don't much like the idea of paying a deposit and knowing that a CM won't start for X number of weeks, months, or years. Think about it, that's like a contractor working on your house that requires a down payment to begin work (those are the guys you want to stay away from). If a CM needs to see commitment from a buyer, a payment halfway through the build and then the balance at the end seems like a better option in my mind.

Just a few random thoughts....

manwon
05-01-2008, 01:48 PM
There was a time when I might have agreed with you but not now.
Im currently dealing with a young man that ask if I would finance a cue for him (allow him to pay $1100.00 in monthly payments). My build schedule was only 90 days (damn, that sounds familiar doesnt it)!!!

I've received one payment of $100.00 and several excuses. His cue is done and ready to go out the door. Ive done my part, now its time for him to do his. Funny thing though, his phone has been disconnected and his email is no longer valid.

Could I sell the cue? Of course. Will I? No. Ill have the satisfaction of knowing I was more than honest and communicated with him just like I agreed to do.


Tap Tap Tap, this is exactly how to handle the situation. There will always be those who fail to honor their contracts / their WORD, Cue makers and Customers, but like you said the self satisfaction of doing the right thing is something nothing compares to. It is also whats makes an individual like what and who they are and without being proud of what we are, life is a terrible form of existence. Because no matter where a person go's or what they attempt to do their dishonest nature, lack or respect for themselves, and the way they treat others will always show through.

Have a good day!!!!!!

cueaddicts
05-01-2008, 07:06 PM
There was a time when I might have agreed with you but not now.
Im currently dealing with a young man that ask if I would finance a cue for him (allow him to pay $1100.00 in monthly payments). My build schedule was only 90 days (damn, that sounds familiar doesnt it)!!!

I've received one payment of $100.00 and several excuses. His cue is done and ready to go out the door. Ive done my part, now its time for him to do his. Funny thing though, his phone has been disconnected and his email is no longer valid.

Could I sell the cue? Of course. Will I? No. Ill have the satisfaction of knowing I was more than honest and communicated with him just like I agreed to do.

You honored your end of the deal.....sleep well at night, sell the cue, and keep his $100. :)

junksecret
05-02-2008, 01:51 AM
I was in Ernie's shop yesterday (Ginacue) and he said something I thought was interesting given his impeccable reputation and status as a cue maker. He said "I don't want all the money in front, I want to have a compelling reason to finish the cue".

He has great self-discipline, all the integrity in the world and a wonderful work ethic yet he, who could get it all up front all day long, choses to take only a small deposit when he begins work and the balance on delivery.

Joe