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JB Cases
04-27-2008, 01:22 AM
This question was posed on another forum so I thought I would answer it here with what I know on the subject, which is by no means a complete history.

RUNSCOTT asked "Can someone (or multiple people) provide information on pool cue cases over the years? I'm especially interested in the relationships, history and timelines among the various cases and their makers. What cases came out when, who made them, who taught who, etc.? I've read versions of this info as it relates to Justis, Swift, In Stroke and their predecessors (although putting on this forum would be nice). But, I have not heard the same about Fellini, Gore, Engles, Whitten and others.

Scott <<== started thinking when seeing Hunter's Engles case that looked similar to a Fellini"

I want to give Chris Tate some recognition as well as he has an excellent resource on cue cases at www.thepalmercollector.com

I started making cases in 1991. At that time I only knew of the following case makers that were actively making cases,

Jay Flowers, It's George, Jack Justis, and Porper. Around that time Guiseppe and New Image cases also came on the scene but I don't know if they started before or after me.

I didn't start studying cases until 1990 when I started to think about building my own. So my knowledge of case history prior to 1990 is sketchy but I will try and expect those with more knowledge to fill in the gaps. For the purpose of this essay I will stick to hard, tubular style cases.

From what I understand Brunswick had square leather cases that were patterned after fishing pole cases. These were popular throughout the 40's through the 60's. These cases were made of thick leather with a felt liner and typically held one cue and up to two shafts. I have also seen what has been called Martin cases that were said to have been made by or commissioned by cue maker Harvey Martin. These cases also featured a cloth interior but used a plastic tube as the structure.

Throughout the 70's and through the mid-80's the dominant case was the Fellini style case, which featured a plastic tube shell. Fellini cases were started by Bob Hemphil. Ann Gore worked for him and later started Manx Cases but were known as Ann Gore cases. Other cases spawned by the Fellini style include the Centennial, Kelli, It's George,Ron Thomas, and Engles. McDermott and Adams also had their mass production versions of this style.

More recently, the latest entry into this genre are the GTF Cases which were created specifically to replicate the Fellini and Centennial style cases.

In the mid 80's Joe Porper brought out a new type of case, the foam core style. Bob Meucci claims to have invented this style, which consists of filling a steel mold with expanding structural foam. This resulted in a form fitted interior that was lightweight and fairly strong. Leonard Bludworth says that he helped Joe Porper to get the mixture right and modified his foam injection machine to ensure consistency in the forms. The Porper case was revolutionary and quickly gained popularity. Up until the introduction of the Porper cases It's George was the dominant mass production case.

In the mid 80's through the early 90's Jay Flowers was also making tooled leather cases. From reading www.thepalmercollector.com I have learned that Jay Flowers had a sort of production workshop with up to 8 people making cases. I met Jay Flowers in the late 90's in Vegas when he came up and introduced himself and told me that he was the first to begin making the plumbing tube style case that I was selling then. The plumbing/electrical tube style case is one where the interior structure is made of individual plastic tubes that are lined with cloth. According to Chris' website at one point Flowers had up to 1000 cases on order.

Jack Justis started in 1989 according to him. His cases were tube cases in the Flowers style. I have seen mention of another case called a Curtis case that was dated at the late 70's. In the one picture I have seen it is hard to tell what the interior construction is but the exterior design is a clear predecessor of Flowers, Justis and Instroke.

Instroke started in 1991 in my attic as Stroke cases. My first cases were tube cases that were an improvement over the Flowers case I dissected as far as the interior construction went. But the exterior was more like a Porper with a zipper top and funky pockets. I just liked the softer feel of the Porpers and it was easier for me to do that style than to do the tooled leather versions. The early cases were all one of-a-kinds.

In 1993 I went to my first BCA trade show in Kansas City as a guest of Toby Kim of Kim Steel pool tables. At that show I saw Gusieppe Cases from California, New Image cases from Arizona, Porper of course and It's George. At this point Instroke was not mass producing cases. I had only 18 cases to show. So the dominant cases were still Porper and It's George but from what I remember Guiseppe and New Image were doing great business. I don't remember that there were a lot of import cases on display then. Jay Flowers didn't have a booth and neither did Justis that I remember.

The next year, 1994 Instroke debuted the mass production lines. At this time a few other case makers that are unknown in the USA came on the scene. Waldemar Eisele and True West cases. Both of these were done in the Flowers style, with the Eisele case being crafted one at a time and the True West being mass produced. Neither of them made any impact in the USA. Throughout the 90's the two brand names that became most dominant were Porper and Instroke.

From 1994 - 2000 a few case makers have come and gone, one being Jim Knott from California. Jim had a partnership with a local leather worker wherein Jim designed the cases and the leather worker built them. This worked out great until the leather worker upped his prices and Jim couldn't compete. Jim Walker from Oklahoma also built and may still build great cases.

I have to mention Dennis Swift. Although Jay Flowers said he started the tube case style I am not sure. Swift cases have also been around for as long as I have been making cases but I never knew much about them other than the few I owned and studied. According to Dennis' website he has been making cases for over 25 years which would mean that he started at least by 1983. Swift cases were mostly sold through Mueller Sporting Goods (but not under Swift's name) and Cuemaker Tad Kohara as TAD cases.

And Whitten of course. I first became aware of Whitten in 1994. Their cases are tube cases with a twist. They fill the space in between the tubes with expanding foam so that the cases have a flat surface for the soft upholstery leather to cover the interior. Whitten cases have developed a singular style that has been emulated but never duplicated.

With the exception of the Fellini-Ann Gore relationship I am not aware that any other case makers had learned directly from any others nor received anything but friendly advice or sharing of resources.

Until recently Joe Whitten was the only second-generation case maker in the business. Now, according to the information on this forum, Mike Roberts and his son are making It's George cases again.

Another notable case maker who isn't only a cue case maker but instead is a crafter of cases of all types is Chas Clements. Chas came into the world of cue cases through a commission to make a case for Paul Rubino, one of the co-authors of the Billiard Encyclopedia. Chas' cases were works of art that also were pretty much bulletproof. He didn't do a lot of cases and unfotunately suffered a hand injury that all but ended his leatherworking career. I was fortunate enough to be able to spend some time with Chas and although I did not apprentice under him he was generous with his techniques and that has helped me to make better cases. Chas was active from 2000-2003.

Another case maker of interest that is no longer active is New York cases. New York cases were made by a man who was active in clothes and bags in New York of course. The distinctive feature on these cases was that the pockets were inside the case. This however made the cases really large and bulky. These cases were very nice in their patterns of leather overlays and inlays.

A few years ago Jim Murnak came on the scene and has quickly gained a nice following. Jim comes to cue case making though his other business making leather fighting gear and archery quivers. Since taking up pool Jim decided to make cue cases. Jim's cases are primarily tube cases that are a blend of several styles infused with his own style to create unique pieces.

In Arizona there is Garth Bair and his On Q Cases. His cases are reminiscent of the New York cases but nicer. On Q Cases are tube cases and he specializes in doing cases decorated with inlays. Garth also has a unique way of doing the pockets that is very interesting. Garth started in 2002.

Lately Brian Bonner of Nittany Leahter has been making great cases in the Swift-Flowers style. I think Brian has been doing it for couple years.

There are other case makers out there out well that are less known but equally as good.

I have not mentioned the Asian cases because they have been mostly copies until the past few years. There are a few case makers in China and Taiwan that are doing original stuff. An original brand that also showed influence from other styles but had it's own look is Talisman from Thailand. Tony Jones has created a nice case that is durable and functions well. Talisman started around 2001ish I think.

I don't mention any distributer brands whose offerings are mostly copies of the brands I mentioned above.

Okay, that's about all I know or care to think about right now. :-)

I look forward to others adding their knowledge to this and together we can put together a pretty decent history of this part of the industry.

CocoboloCowboy
04-27-2008, 08:22 AM
Great post JB.

putt-putt44
04-27-2008, 09:45 AM
Man,,,,,,,,,,''everything You Ever Wanted To Know About Cases But Were Afraid To Ask "..........great Insight Into The Wonderful Art Of Casemaking !!!!

poohkiller
04-27-2008, 10:14 AM
I can't wait for The Recollections Of John Barton! Great post - and I love the vids on your site too.

Thank you for all the info and best of luck for you with your cases!

TATE
04-27-2008, 12:00 PM
Nice job on this, John.

I would like to add something about the fly rod and cue case connection.

The picture below shows a fly rod case (left side) made in the 1930's and branded "Lyon and Coulson, Buffalo, New York", a sporting goods supplier. This is the case I believe was adapted by Brunswick in the 1940's to use for cues. The case has a flip tip lid with straps. It's hard to see it in pictures, but the case also has a tooled design. Brunswick offered a "Deluxe" case in the 1950's which was used in the movie "The Hustler" with a nearly identical tooling pattern. This case also features a strap and handle configuration later used by Jay Flowers and is still used on many cue cases.

The case to the far right is my Jack Justis daily playing case from the mid 1990's.

Chris

http://www.palmercollector.com/case_comparison.jpg

http://www.palmercollector.com/Case_lids.jpg

ribdoner
04-27-2008, 12:15 PM
John,

THANKS for sharing!!

Hunter
04-28-2008, 03:29 PM
Nice Brunswick case, Chris ;) !

I have always heard that the case used in The Hustler was actually an A.E. Schmidt, which looks like a smaller version of the flyrod case you pictured. I have watched the movie a time or two and in one scene, it looks just like the Schmidt, but everywhere else that you see it, it looks like the Deluxe... Brunswick would make more sense, though, since they were using Rambows. Ever hear this theory?

TATE
04-29-2008, 03:10 PM
Hi Steve,

Thanks for the photo - remarkable similarities to the fly rod case, huh?

There were a few years where Brunswick was offering their standard case, which is the plain case, and their tooled case, which is hard to find and looks just like the one you showed in the picture. I have a catalog or two with these in them. I'm pretty sure the AE Schmidt case is a re-branded Brunswick case that was sold through AE Schmidt with their own label on it. I've seen pictures of these exact cases with both Brunswick and AE Schmidt labels on them.

Chris



Nice Brunswick case, Chris ;) !

I have always heard that the case used in The Hustler was actually an A.E. Schmidt, which looks like a smaller version of the flyrod case you pictured. I have watched the movie a time or two and in one scene, it looks just like the Schmidt, but everywhere else that you see it, it looks like the Deluxe... Brunswick would make more sense, though, since they were using Rambows. Ever hear this theory?

coastydad
04-29-2008, 05:17 PM
I think it would be a shame if Centennial cases were not mentioned in this thread. I owned several of them and they provided excellent, air tight, protection for a cue. I wish I had kept them all. For modern day case makers, the equivalent to Centennial or Fellini, would have to be Ron Thomas. He makes a great, classically styled case, with great protection. Plus, he's a hell of a nice guy.

JB Cases
09-22-2010, 02:16 AM
I think it would be a shame if Centennial cases were not mentioned in this thread. I owned several of them and they provided excellent, air tight, protection for a cue. I wish I had kept them all. For modern day case makers, the equivalent to Centennial or Fellini, would have to be Ron Thomas. He makes a great, classically styled case, with great protection. Plus, he's a hell of a nice guy.

I did mention Centennial but only in reference to what most people know as the "Fellini" style.

Centennial did in fact make a major improvement over the Fellini as far as the function went and that is the O-ring. With the O-ring the case sealed better and the lid fit tighter.

To date the only maker who has copied the O-ring has been Sam Engles. I believe that he did a double O-ring. Not sure if it really helped any more though. And Ron Thomas does a sort of button that is not really intended to seal the case but does have similar functionality in keeping the cap secured.

Centennial also introduced the treated wood endcaps. I personally prefer the folded endcaps as Harvey Martin, Gina, Fellini and now GTF does them because it give the case sort of an endless feel to them.

I have to say though that capping the ends with wood, plastic or again now as GTF does them, with leather, offers quite a bit of flexibility in design to make complimentary or contrasting elements.

Also Centennial might have been the first to introduce the 2x4 cases. I can't find any information on this for a timeline but I have a feeling that they did introduce them before it's George. AND furthermore they were definitely one of the first if not the first to offer cases with a big pouch on them. (which I neglected to mention in my What's in the Case blog segment recently, www.jbcases.com/caseblog )

So the Centennial is definitely iconic and it's George and Ron Thomas can thank Centennial for the influence on their own products.

JimS
09-22-2010, 03:16 AM
Thanks John. I enjoyed the "trip" through the case world. I like cases!!

metallicane
09-22-2010, 07:25 AM
Very interesting history, thanks for sharing.

As a collector, anyone know where I could get one of the "Hustler" cases?

CocoboloCowboy
09-22-2010, 07:49 AM
Very interesting history, thanks for sharing.

As a collector, anyone know where I could get one of the "Hustler" cases?


I believe Roy @ Indy Cue (www.indyq.com) sell a copy, and Rust Melton build copies, of the Hustler Style! Plus I am sure JB CASES, could do it also!

larrynj1
09-22-2010, 08:07 AM
any info out there on the unmarked cases sold by brunswick that were shaped as an oval at top and round at bottom? the top was removable with two push type latches. who made them, etc? these were very nice looking leather cases. since my computer crashed, i don't have any pics.

ctyhntr
09-22-2010, 08:18 AM
I think Jim Murnak may also be making the old style hustler cases too.

He's raffling one off on his go4poo.com website for the Nes/Borana movie.
http://go4pool.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=167:leap-year&catid=3:newsflash

ctyhntr
09-22-2010, 08:20 AM
John,

What about your experiment with making a modern version of the hustler case? I bought one from you at this year's Super Billiard Expo. Great quality and finish, I feel special owning it and I'm surprised you're not offering it in your catalog.

CocoboloCowboy
09-22-2010, 08:26 AM
I think Jim Murnak may also be making the old style hustler cases too.



As I said Roy at INDYQ (www.indyq.com), has em by JM is stock I think!

Here is a photo (http://www.indyq.com/cases/murnak/index.html) of them, think Roy has some kind of sale on Cases, FYI

thepavlos
09-22-2010, 08:35 AM
Didn't Ernie Gutierrez make a tube style case? I'm pretty sure the Glenn Collection has one.

uwate
09-22-2010, 09:08 AM
John, do you have any knowledge of Steve Price's work? He currently produces cases out of the Tampa/Clearwater area.

CocoboloCowboy
09-22-2010, 03:01 PM
The Cases Roy has are 1 x 2, Black, or Brown like the Cue Case in the movie The Hustler, http://www.indyq.com/cases/murnak/index.2.jpg they were made by Murnak of NYC. As I said Roy @ INDYQ (http://www.indyq.com) has some specials going so if this is what you are talking about contact Roy for prices, etc.

JB Cases
09-22-2010, 04:41 PM
John,

What about your experiment with making a modern version of the hustler case? I bought one from you at this year's Super Billiard Expo. Great quality and finish, I feel special owning it and I'm surprised you're not offering it in your catalog.

With everything else we are doing we just thought it isn't the time to introduce that case. There are a few things I need to work on to make it work a little better.

JB Cases
09-22-2010, 04:50 PM
John, do you have any knowledge of Steve Price's work? He currently produces cases out of the Tampa/Clearwater area.

Not first hand knowledge. From the pictures I have collected the construction and protection level seems pretty straightforward.

What impresses me with Steve's work is that he keeps it simple with just a touch of decoration. Believe it or not it's very difficult to know where to stop and in my opinion Steve nails it on his cases.

The other thing I am impressed with is that Steve is building what looks to be a very solid case with no stitching. He has figured out how to put the whole thing together with rivets in such a way that it looks great and not like a biker jacket on steroids. Very clever and very classy.

Someday when I get around to it I will make a sort of case museum online that celebrates all the lesser known makers. In cue case making there is an awful lot of creativity out there that hasn't really made national news.

I currently have around 90 case makers/brands identified with a couple more folders of unknown/unidentified cases.

JB Cases
09-22-2010, 05:15 PM
Didn't Ernie Gutierrez make a tube style case? I'm pretty sure the Glenn Collection has one.

Yes. The Gina cases actually predated the Fellini and it's a pretty sure bet that the Fellini was directly influenced by the Gina cases. One member here on AZ has access to many unfinished Gina case parts if I am not mistaken.

The Gina case was built internally similar to the Harvey Martin with very thin nylon separating the cue parts. Externally the case was made with the leather glued to the body and the ends folded over the top.

Harvey Martin isn't really well known but if you really want to give credit where credit is due then the credit for the hand-finished ends should go to Martin. I don't know if Harvey Martin actually made the cases or not. But I can't find any examples of this technique on other leather goods. The obvious comparison would be upholstery except that upholstery hides the ends of the material so that it can be tacked or stapled after being pulled tightly.

Laying the leather up over the ends and finishing it with a patch of leather seems to be fairly unique to cue cases.

It cannot be understated how hard this is to do and get right. Very very easy to get wrong. You will find no tutorials anywhere (at least I never found any) on how to do this technique. In upholstery you don't have to be super careful about how the leather fits together because it's tucked away and unseen. So upholsters have all sorts of tricks to make the leather behave and look great for the part you see.

I would like to add that there ARE examples of upholstered cases where the ends are tucked into the tube and then leather/vinyl covered cap is placed in the top. This is NOT the same as the hand-finished ends I am speaking of.

In a case like the Harvey Martin, Gina, Fellini and GTF the person doing the work doesn't have a lot of room for error because what you see is what you get.

Harvey Martin and Gina both skived the leather to almost paper thin which certainly made the job much easier. The drawback to this is that it decreased the durability of the leather tremendously. This is probably a reason why so few of these cases have survived. A lot of them were probably thrown away as junk when the leather wore through. For this reason surviving examples should be prized.

Fellini used thicker leather on the ends and this came with it's own set of problems. Namely keeping the leather down. You can see on a lot of Fellinis that the ends are separating from the body. This happens when the leather and glue react to climate change. Sam Engles also had this problem on many of his cases. And this is normal because without a Martin or Gina to study then those that follow only have the examples available to them.

We have invented a way to pretty much insure that the ends stay put forever for the GTF cases. So far 3 years and counting it seems to be working.

But yeah, the real credit goes to Martin for the hand-finished ends and then to Gina for the flush slip cover case.

To be fair slip cover cases have been made for centuries. But as far as I can tell the modern version using nested extrusion tubes started with Ernie at Gina.

Note: There may be examples of the flush-lid slip cover style as Viking Cases which were also from the 60s.

(I don't have any examples of the Gina - Maybe someone else could provide some?)

Martin:

http://jbcases.com/cases/CaseHistory/Harvey%20Martin/martin-end.jpg

http://jbcases.com/cases/CaseHistory/Harvey%20Martin/19%20%20fats%20Hubert%20Cokes%20(350%20x%20354).jp g


Fellini:

http://jbcases.com/cases/CaseHistory/Fellini/DSC02034-sm.jpg

http://jbcases.com/cases/CaseHistory/Fellini/case4.JPG


Engles:

http://jbcases.com/cases/CaseHistory/Engles-Kelli/img0177ho9.jpg

http://jbcases.com/cases/CaseHistory/Engles-Kelli/img0185lz1.jpg

http://jbcases.com/cases/CaseHistory/Engles-Kelli/top-opened-full-2.jpg


GTF:

http://jbcases.com/cases/GTF-Cases/P1060693.JPG
http://jbcases.com/cases/GTF-Cases/P1060884.JPG

http://jbcases.com/cases/GTF-Cases/GTF-Capacity/Romeo-Juliet/P6100169.JPG

JB Cases
09-22-2010, 05:18 PM
The Cases Roy has are 1 x 2, Black, or Brown like the Cue Case in the movie The Hustler, http://www.indyq.com/cases/murnak/index.2.jpg they were made by Murnak of NYC. As I said Roy @ INDYQ (http://www.indyq.com) has some specials going so if this is what you are talking about contact Roy for prices, etc.

This is a very good case. Roy does have them in stock and ready to sell. As usual when he likes someone and something he stocks deep. I don't know how many he has left but if you really are interested in this style of case then Jim did an excellent job on these and Roy has them with no waiting.

I inspected them thoroughly in January when I was there. Good cases. Well done.

hangemhigh
09-22-2010, 05:35 PM
Harvey Martin isn't really well known but if you really want to give credit where credit is due then the credit for the folded over endcaps (I need a better name for this technique) should go to Martin.

John the correct description is what Sam always used, "hand finished ends".

JB Cases
09-22-2010, 05:41 PM
Harvey Martin isn't really well known but if you really want to give credit where credit is due then the credit for the folded over endcaps (I need a better name for this technique) should go to Martin.

John the correct description is what Sam always used, "hand finished ends".

I guess that works well because there isn't really any other way to do them. The leather has to be essentially massaged into place. We use a few tools to help but the work is all done by one person, one case, with each one being a unique exercise.

Sam definitely chose the hardest method to finish the ends.

CocoboloCowboy
09-22-2010, 05:56 PM
With everything else we are doing we just thought it isn't the time to introduce that case. There are a few things I need to work on to make it work a little better.


John I think the one that that would be cool is to have like an Accessory Cup to hold a few item like Chalk, Willard, Tip Pick, Scuffer, etc.

cuesblues
09-22-2010, 05:58 PM
Great thread, but is there going to be a case history test on Friday?

ibuycues
09-22-2010, 06:07 PM
Didn't Ernie Gutierrez make a tube style case? I'm pretty sure the Glenn Collection has one.

Ernie Gutierrez made cases for several years, and was influential with Dan Whitten when Dan started making cases. I think(?) Ernie made cases in the 1970`s-mid 1980`s.

I have several cases made by Ernie, one of which matches a one of a kind fancy ivory-loaded cue in the late 1960`s early 70`s for a prominent tv personality in LA. I probably have 5-6 of these cases.

Will Prout

TATE
09-22-2010, 07:47 PM
Ernie Gutierrez made cases for several years, and was influential with Dan Whitten when Dan started making cases. I think(?) Ernie made cases in the 1970`s-mid 1980`s.

I have several cases made by Ernie, one of which matches a one of a kind fancy ivory-loaded cue in the late 1960`s early 70`s for a prominent tv personality in LA. I probably have 5-6 of these cases.

Will Prout

Those are rare to see anymore. A friend told me Ernie still has some of the core structures of the cases in his shop, and that they looked like they were made from some pressed fiber material.

If I see Ernie ( I just saw him last week shooting pool) I'll suggest that he make a few, to preserve for the future.

I would like to see some Ginacue cases in pics again. They used to be quite common here in LA but I haven't seen one in many years.

Chris

CocoboloCowboy
09-22-2010, 08:12 PM
Here are two better Photos of the Reproduction Hustler Cases!

hangemhigh
09-22-2010, 09:59 PM
I guess that works well because there isn't really any other way to do them. The leather has to be essentially massaged into place. We use a few tools to help but the work is all done by one person, one case, with each one being a unique exercise.

Sam definitely chose the hardest method to finish the ends.

Back in the 80's Bill McDaniel was making the "Kelli" tube style cases with the hand finished ends and the same lock as Fellini. At that time Schon was making an almost identical case too, down to the hand finished ends and the Fellini lock.

JB Cases
09-23-2010, 01:22 AM
Back in the 80's Bill McDaniel was making the "Kelli" tube style cases with the hand finished ends and the same lock as Fellini. At that time Schon was making an almost identical case too, down to the hand finished ends and the Fellini lock.

So I heard. The thing is that I don't have a single picture of a case that I can identify as a Kelli case. I only have one image where it's titled Engles and Kelli cases and the cases are all the same in appearance with no indication as to which is which.

Didn't Sam sort of inherit or take over the case making from Bill? This kind of fits in with Runscott's request to have a little more information as to case maker associations.

I heard for example that Ron Thomas worked with It's George for a couple weeks and then went off to make cases on his own. Ron says he never worked FOR it's George so who knows? The first Thomas cases were very similar to It's George and then later Ron switched to something of a Centennial/George/Fellini hybrid.

I also have no picture of a Schon case. I have seen a few unidentified cases which people have said is a Schon case. Did they label the cases in any way?

People talk about knockoffs and they rarely say anything about the whole Harvey Martin/Gina/Fellini family of cases. I'd say that this style is the most emulated by small case makers over all others when you figure in all the brands that have done it,

Let's see, after Martin we have Gina, Viking, Adam, Fellini, Centennial, Ann Gore/Manx, It's George, Schon, Kelli, McDermott, Ron Thomas and GTF.

Did I miss any?

cyrex
09-23-2010, 04:52 AM
Wonderful post John! I appreciate you taking the time to save all this history and for taking the time to write it out. I'm especially interested in Ann Gore's work since she was supposed to be from my area.

Just need more pictures! Love seeing the classic cases and their evolution. Or retro~reinvention.

Thank you!

thepavlos
09-23-2010, 06:25 AM
A friend has a Kelli case where KELLI is engraved on the lock

hangemhigh
09-23-2010, 09:12 AM
[QUOTE=JB Cases;2624332]. The thing is that I don't have a single picture of a case that I can identify as a Kelli case. I only have one image where it's titled Engles and Kelli cases and the cases are all the same in appearance with no indication as to which is which.


The Kelli case was smaller, no label, and sometimes a Gorton pantographed logo on the lock. The cue and shafts fit tight with no rattle, you could not get a cue in a Kelli with the joint and tips up. That was Sam's original design change from the other tube style cases, the ability to put the butt in with the joint and shaft tips in the upright position.





I also have no picture of a Schon case. I have seen a few unidentified cases which people have said is a Schon case. Did they label the cases in any way?

No labels I ever saw, but the cases from Schon are bigger than a Fellini and a tad bit smaller than an Engles. They will always have a Fellini style lock. There are several subtle design differences between a Schon and a Fellini that make identification fairly easy.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u313/hangem_high/DSC00606.jpg

The Kelli case was made in Bill's shop by employees, mainly a Swedish woman named Evore.

TATE
09-23-2010, 09:33 AM
Wonderful post John! I appreciate you taking the time to save all this history and for taking the time to write it out. I'm especially interested in Ann Gore's work since she was supposed to be from my area.

Just need more pictures! Love seeing the classic cases and their evolution. Or retro~reinvention.

Thank you!

This shows an Ann Gore suede case on far left, the rest are Fellini's. Also, there is a close up of the label she used for awhile.

After Fellini closed (she worked there) , Ann made some cases with just a glued on label like this, so they were easily removed or fell off. I've seen a few that had no label. Some of them said Ann Gore and some said "Manx". She used the Fellini shell and sometimes the Fellini locks. This case had a latch style lock.

The shell, leather work, and interiors are identical to Fellini's. These cases now belong to another member on AZ who has a wonderful case collection.

Chris

rayjay
09-23-2010, 10:04 AM
From 1994 - 2000 a few case makers have come and gone, one being Jim Knott from California. Jim had a partnership with a local leather worker wherein Jim designed the cases and the leather worker built them. This worked out great until the leather worker upped his prices and Jim couldn't compete.

Thanks for the information on Jim Knott. This is the first I have heard about him. Several years ago, I bought one of his cases on this forum from azb member Von Rhett, and continue to use it daily. It has held up very well, although Von said he had a new latch put on some time back. I haven't had to do any maintainance to it. The case is in the Flowers/Swift tradition of tooled leather and gets compliments all the time. I also still have one of your older Instroke black/brown leather 3x6/7 cases with zippered pockets that belonged to a now deceased trick shot artist named Chet (I forget his last name right now, have it written somewhere), that you gave to him as a gift, and we emailed back and forth briefly about it. This is a great case. One of these days I will photograph the cases and put them up in the gallery. Thanks for all this good information, John.

CocoboloCowboy
09-23-2010, 10:06 AM
Member Tate (http://www.palmercollector.com/CollectibleCaseHome.html) has a very good link on his web-site about Cases!

ibuycues
09-23-2010, 10:21 AM
Thanks John,

Also all the contributors to this thread. Even for those of us that already "knew" most of this stuff, it is good to have it in one spot, and read it all at once.

Much appreciated!

Will Prout

JB Cases
09-23-2010, 06:02 PM
Thanks John,

Also all the contributors to this thread. Even for those of us that already "knew" most of this stuff, it is good to have it in one spot, and read it all at once.

Much appreciated!

Will Prout

My pleasure Will. And I hope that the thread is contributed to by more people because the one thing I keep finding out is how much I don't know.

Thank you to everyone who is helping to fill in the gaps.

sengkun108
09-24-2010, 06:21 PM
What a great thread.:thumbup:....I hope many case maker can make some post in this thread. I believe many of us will gain a lot of benefit from them.

ibuycues
09-25-2010, 02:22 PM
Let's see, after Martin we have Gina, Viking, Adam, Fellini, Centennial, Ann Gore/Manx, It's George, Schon, Kelli, McDermott, Ron Thomas and GTF.

Did I miss any?[/QUOTE]



John,

To your list, a couple of obvious ones that have been talked about. Just mentioning so the list stays complete. Others can add on also:

Sam Engles
Jim Knott

Thanks.

Will Prout

bob c
09-25-2010, 07:16 PM
John, do have an idea of how many cue cases Chas made before being unable to continue working?

Scott Lee
09-25-2010, 09:58 PM
Chris...Something to note about the Brunswick cases. Yours had a snap closure...mine had a buckle. When I got my Balabushka (purchased from George in Oct. 75, 3 months before his death), it came with a Brunswick case. At the time I didn't know they even came with snaps...only buckles.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Nice job on this, John.

I would like to add something about the fly rod and cue case connection.

The picture below shows a fly rod case (left side) made in the 1930's and branded "Lyon and Coulson, Buffalo, New York", a sporting goods supplier. This is the case I believe was adapted by Brunswick in the 1940's to use for cues. The case has a flip tip lid with straps. It's hard to see it in pictures, but the case also has a tooled design. Brunswick offered a "Deluxe" case in the 1950's which was used in the movie "The Hustler" with a nearly identical tooling pattern. This case also features a strap and handle configuration later used by Jay Flowers and is still used on many cue cases.

The case to the far right is my Jack Justis daily playing case from the mid 1990's.

Chris

http://www.palmercollector.com/case_comparison.jpg

http://www.palmercollector.com/Case_lids.jpg

TATE
09-25-2010, 10:36 PM
Chris...Something to note about the Brunswick cases. Yours had a snap closure...mine had a buckle. When I got my Balabushka (purchased from George in Oct. 75, 3 months before his death), it came with a Brunswick case. At the time I didn't know they even came with snaps...only buckles.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott,

Most of them do have the belt - I have no clue how I came across this one with the snap, but it's original. In fact, it basically doesn't look like it was ever used. It has the 1960's Brunswick logo with the "crown". I didn't even know Brunswick made cases into the 1970's. George also used Palmer cases and gave those with his cues for many years.

Check this out. During the 1950's and into the 1960's, Brunswick made two different styles of cases, 1) the Expert, which is a little thicker and has some padding and a luggage style handle, and the more common one 2) the Aristocrat. This is from the 1952 catalog.

http://www.palmercollector.com/Brunswick/Brunswick_1952_page_13.jpg

I wish you still had every old cue you owned. I now have 4 or 5 Eddie Laube's that you introduced me to. They're pretty cool cues.

Chris

Scott Lee
09-25-2010, 11:14 PM
Chris...I remember that Eddie Laube cue well. I got it off a pool player in El Paso TX in 1975 for $100. The cue was unique (it was the first quality cue I had seen with the screw in the shaft, rather than the butt), and since I was from Chicago, I made a stop in to Eddie's shop the next time I was in Chicago. He was still there, but was planning to shut the shop down within a few months. He was quite proud of his 'patented joint design', and told me that the joints were machined so well, that any shaft he ever made would match up perfectly with any butt he ever made. He never would tell me what the material was, on the shaft, above the screw...but the ferrule was buckhorn, something else I had not seen before on a cue. I loved collecting cues for many years, but as I sold them off, they drifted into my own history. Thanks for your help with a couple of the last ones!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott,

I wish you still had every old cue you owned. I now have 4 or 5 Eddie Laube's that you introduced me to. They're pretty cool cues.

Chris

half fast bankr
10-08-2010, 01:59 AM
John, great posts. This should be uploaded to wiki or something!

Also, I'd love to know how you guys get your ends so nice. Honestly, they look folded then tucked under the centerpiece (like 2 right angles). Your leathers also have that more plush look, which surely settles better than 'regular' full corner wrapped cases. The closest thing I could tie your leather too would be Whittens nice hides, yet yours still appear more plush. Both of which are nothing like what Bob H typically used (nearly stiff linoleum sheets). Suede or any other 'haired hide' was probably the only material that hid seems at the end better for him. And anything with a pattern at all only served to further reveal the gaps.

I'm still hand cutting and 'massaging' as you put it. I don't skiv, but once in a while you get a few tabs that just don't cooperate, so I might try that here and there.

Lastly, I only skimmed this thread, but I didn't catch any mention of either the envelope style or the early hinged box type cases... I'd have to guess the envelope also came from fishing, and the box type possibly from musical instrument cases. Both of these were some biggies before any tubes showed up.

JB Cases
10-08-2010, 07:27 PM
John, great posts. This should be uploaded to wiki or something!

Also, I'd love to know how you guys get your ends so nice. Honestly, they look folded then tucked under the centerpiece (like 2 right angles). Your leathers also have that more plush look, which surely settles better than 'regular' full corner wrapped cases. The closest thing I could tie your leather too would be Whittens nice hides, yet yours still appear more plush. Both of which are nothing like what Bob H typically used (nearly stiff linoleum sheets). Suede or any other 'haired hide' was probably the only material that hid seems at the end better for him. And anything with a pattern at all only served to further reveal the gaps.

I'm still hand cutting and 'massaging' as you put it. I don't skiv, but once in a while you get a few tabs that just don't cooperate, so I might try that here and there.

Lastly, I only skimmed this thread, but I didn't catch any mention of either the envelope style or the early hinged box type cases... I'd have to guess the envelope also came from fishing, and the box type possibly from musical instrument cases. Both of these were some biggies before any tubes showed up.

For the purpose of the thread when I started it I confined it to top-loading tubular cases using plastic tubes. There is definitely a lot more history of cue cases and also containers in general to be explored.

As for the hand-finished ends (seems like the best term) - I think that it's essential to skive the leather when using stiffer types of leather. I can only see issues happening with trying to bend leather around curves and expect it to stay in place with glue only with such a small surface area. We use all types of leather from veg tan to chrome-tanned prints and find that we have to use slightly different methods for each. Ostrich for example is mushy like clay and surprisingly difficult to get to stay in place without distortion.

We did make a template that we use to cut the tabs on the ends and that helps a lot. But the leather doesn't always lay down right even with the template cuts so we have to do quite a bit of hand-fitting and trimming to make it settle correctly. The ends of the tabs are folded into the center recess and the centerpiece is then wedged in place to keep the leather from moving. it seems as if this technique works so far as we haven't had any situations in the past three years where the tabs have come up or split.

I have had some thicker veg tan shrink and cause the leather to separate and we have found that skiving/sanding to reduce the thickness solves this.

I haven't seen a lot of Fellinis but the one I have is made from a piece of impressed split leather which is generally stiffer than the full grain chrome tan. We use the same on some cases but as I said we tend to sand the ends to make them more pliable. I have seen many Fellinis where the ends have survived intact as near to perfect as one could want. Mine is in pretty good shape.

half fast bankr
10-09-2010, 02:40 AM
Me: "Lastly, I only skimmed this thread, but I didn't catch any mention of either the envelope style or the early hinged box type cases... I'd have to guess the envelope also came from fishing, and the box type possibly from musical instrument cases. Both of these were some biggies before any tubes showed up."

JB: "For the purpose of the thread when I started it I confined it to top-loading tubular cases using plastic tubes. There is definitely a lot more history of cue cases and also containers in general to be explored."

John, my above statement was not directed at you, merely an observation about the entire thread and all it's contributions.

JB Cases
10-10-2010, 02:46 AM
Me: "Lastly, I only skimmed this thread, but I didn't catch any mention of either the envelope style or the early hinged box type cases... I'd have to guess the envelope also came from fishing, and the box type possibly from musical instrument cases. Both of these were some biggies before any tubes showed up."

JB: "For the purpose of the thread when I started it I confined it to top-loading tubular cases using plastic tubes. There is definitely a lot more history of cue cases and also containers in general to be explored."

John, my above statement was not directed at you, merely an observation about the entire thread and all it's contributions.

Sure. In fact I'd like to invite everyone to upload anything that they have with as much information as they have on cue cases.

What's the Q-Ster? King Kustoms from Memphis? How about McKernann?

Has anyone here ever seen a picture of a Jim Knott case? Jim Walker?

Or even the Gina case I spoke of?

I wish I could get more pictures of the cases I made the first two years. I lost an entire album of all those cases and another album with the handwritten orders. :-(

So AZ feel free to share your stories of case makers you know about.

steveinflorida
10-10-2010, 10:21 AM
John, Thank you so much for your kind words. Steve

classiccues
10-10-2010, 10:38 AM
Scott,

Most of them do have the belt - I have no clue how I came across this one with the snap, but it's original. In fact, it basically doesn't look like it was ever used. It has the 1960's Brunswick logo with the "crown". I didn't even know Brunswick made cases into the 1970's. George also used Palmer cases and gave those with his cues for many years.

Check this out. During the 1950's and into the 1960's, Brunswick made two different styles of cases, 1) the Expert, which is a little thicker and has some padding and a luggage style handle, and the more common one 2) the Aristocrat. This is from the 1952 catalog.

http://www.palmercollector.com/Brunswick/Brunswick_1952_page_13.jpg

I wish you still had every old cue you owned. I now have 4 or 5 Eddie Laube's that you introduced me to. They're pretty cool cues.

Chris

I have a leather Brunswick Crown case with a handle that is set into brass ends. Kind of spring loaded, or just very tight. When it's not in use the handle stays flat, it takes a little pressure to get it out of the brass ends.

JV

rayjay
10-12-2010, 11:30 AM
Jim Knott case

JoshStodola
04-16-2013, 10:39 AM
I just came across this post and thoroughly enjoyed it. To the top :cool:

runscott
09-14-2017, 07:27 PM
I recently acquired a few vintage and 'vintage look' cases, and came across this thread while searching for more information. Weird that it was in response to a question I asked John, but somehow I don't think I ever read it!

Anyway, still a great thread - thanks John.

Chopdoc
09-14-2017, 07:36 PM
I recently acquired a few vintage and 'vintage look' cases, and came across this thread while searching for more information. Weird that it was in response to a question I asked John, but somehow I don't think I ever read it!

Anyway, still a great thread - thanks John.

It is an excellent thread and I have visited it many times.

John has a wealth of information to offer as well as perspectives and opinions on case design and engineering as well as case history as is evident here.

I am as much a case collector as I am a cue collector and I am very interested in the history. It is one of my motivations in collecting.
.

runscott
09-14-2017, 08:01 PM
It is an excellent thread and I have visited it many times.

John has a wealth of information to offer as well as perspectives and opinions on case design and engineering as well as case history as is evident here.

I am as much a case collector as I am a cue collector and I am very interested in the history. It is one of my motivations in collecting.
.

I am not a case collector, but after you have had a few great cases it is hard to go back to crappy ones. I have been using an Instroke 'Nature' for 14 years, but would like a 2-butt case that will hold fatter butt cues. I tried a few 2x4 George cases, but the insert/extraction process was a pain in the butt <==see what I did there? I am looking forward to a new one that is arriving Saturday :)

WildWing
09-14-2017, 08:12 PM
It is an excellent thread and I have visited it many times.

John has a wealth of information to offer as well as perspectives and opinions on case design and engineering as well as case history as is evident here.

I am as much a case collector as I am a cue collector and I am very interested in the history. It is one of my motivations in collecting.
.

Absolutely, it is a great thread, and I'm a bit of a case collector myself. Big surprise, I know. Fellinis, Justis, Instroke, Whitten, and others.

I'll add one thing. The original thread focused on hard tube style cases, and I know this departs from the theme, but I think the suitcase style case deserves a bit of recognition. They're pretty recognizable, Palmer, McDermott, and Schmelke had or have their variants. I happen to think the O'Neill cases were the best of that bunch, just an opinion. Willie Mosconi carried Palmer suitcases for years. How can you argue with that? Anyhow, just an example of nice O'Neills: Makes you want to fix a martini.

All the best,
WW

Type79
09-15-2017, 03:30 AM
I'll add one thing. The original thread focused on hard tube style cases, and I know this departs from the theme, but I think the suitcase style case deserves a bit of recognition. They're pretty recognizable, Palmer, McDermott, and Schmelke had or have their variants. I happen to think the O'Neill cases were the best of that bunch, just an opinion. Willie Mosconi carried Palmer suitcases for years. How can you argue with that? Anyhow, just an example of nice O'Neills: Makes you want to fix a martini.

All the best,
WW

I agree 100%. No one made a box case of the same quality, fit, and finish of an O'Neil which is why they are my choice for cue storage.

Mark even made me several cases with special configurations and one with a white interior.

Chopdoc
09-15-2017, 04:00 AM
I have several O'Neil cases, including their dealer case, and I have to agree they are excellent.

Although I have a fetish for Fellini style cases, especially with the old "diary" lock, I enjoy box cases and carried one for years myself.

Although I think the O'Neil cases were/are the best box cases constructed, there have been some other well made box cases.

I found this Viking case made by Fine Brothers Company in Brooklyn, the same company that made the Palmer cases. I particularly prize it because of the wild lining and the condition, which is excellent. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?452026&p=5870046#post5870046

.

Ched
09-15-2017, 04:44 PM
I'd be interested in any info on the Crystal Leisure cases. Think mines about 20+ years old or so.

alphadog
09-18-2017, 02:24 PM
JB enlighten me on this case please?

MalibuMike
09-18-2017, 06:59 PM
Btw, Tim PADGETT is at it again! He trained under both Burt Schrager and Ernie of Ginacue and was a Pool legend in the San Fernando valley, right up there with Mexican Ron Rosas! I can hardly wait to see his new work! Though I know I wont be able to afford it! Almost bought his "Bat" cue for $5,000, wish I had!

Chopdoc
09-18-2017, 08:58 PM
I'd be interested in any info on the Crystal Leisure cases. Think mines about 20+ years old or so.

You might be able to find some old catalogs. They branded a lot of cases. Many of those Crystal cases were identical to the Cobra cases and Mizerak cases. But I am sure they marketed a broad spectrum of cases and there are probably numerous I have not seen.

I saw an old Crystal Leisure catalog on Ebay not long ago.


.

runscott
09-19-2017, 09:07 AM
I have several O'Neil cases, including their dealer case, and I have to agree they are excellent.

Although I have a fetish for Fellini style cases, especially with the old "diary" lock, I enjoy box cases and carried one for years myself.

Although I think the O'Neil cases were/are the best box cases constructed, there have been some other well made box cases.

.

I ordered a new O'Neill around ten years ago - easily the highest quality box case I've ever had.

Of the 1x2 cases, my favorites that I have owned are Centennial and Fellini, but I believe Engles combines the best of each (friction cap, leather top and bottom) - I just have never owned one.

Chopdoc
09-19-2017, 09:42 AM
I ordered a new O'Neill around ten years ago - easily the highest quality box case I've ever had.

Of the 1x2 cases, my favorites that I have owned are Centennial and Fellini, but I believe Engles combines the best of each (friction cap, leather top and bottom) - I just have never owned one.

I have two Engles cases, one elephant and the other tooled. Excellent quality. The tubes are a bit thicker and the dimensions slightly roomier.

I have an Ostrich Kelli case. Very good quality, smaller tubes than the others, tighter fit on the cue.

.

JB Cases
09-19-2017, 09:58 PM
JB enlighten me on this case please?

The 434th J.Flowers brand case made by Jiasen in 2013.

ROB.M
09-19-2017, 10:28 PM
John must of for gotten he made this video in 2009. That silly goose'
https://youtu.be/e3cfNB2uSO4



Rob.M





Yes. The Gina cases actually predated the Fellini and it's a pretty sure bet that the Fellini was directly influenced by the Gina cases. One member here on AZ has access to many unfinished Gina case parts if I am not mistaken.

The Gina case was built internally similar to the Harvey Martin with very thin nylon separating the cue parts. Externally the case was made with the leather glued to the body and the ends folded over the top.

Harvey Martin isn't really well known but if you really want to give credit where credit is due then the credit for the hand-finished ends should go to Martin. I don't know if Harvey Martin actually made the cases or not. But I can't find any examples of this technique on other leather goods. The obvious comparison would be upholstery except that upholstery hides the ends of the material so that it can be tacked or stapled after being pulled tightly.

Laying the leather up over the ends and finishing it with a patch of leather seems to be fairly unique to cue cases.

It cannot be understated how hard this is to do and get right. Very very easy to get wrong. You will find no tutorials anywhere (at least I never found any) on how to do this technique. In upholstery you don't have to be super careful about how the leather fits together because it's tucked away and unseen. So upholsters have all sorts of tricks to make the leather behave and look great for the part you see.

I would like to add that there ARE examples of upholstered cases where the ends are tucked into the tube and then leather/vinyl covered cap is placed in the top. This is NOT the same as the hand-finished ends I am speaking of.

In a case like the Harvey Martin, Gina, Fellini and GTF the person doing the work doesn't have a lot of room for error because what you see is what you get.

Harvey Martin and Gina both skived the leather to almost paper thin which certainly made the job much easier. The drawback to this is that it decreased the durability of the leather tremendously. This is probably a reason why so few of these cases have survived. A lot of them were probably thrown away as junk when the leather wore through. For this reason surviving examples should be prized.

Fellini used thicker leather on the ends and this came with it's own set of problems. Namely keeping the leather down. You can see on a lot of Fellinis that the ends are separating from the body. This happens when the leather and glue react to climate change. Sam Engles also had this problem on many of his cases. And this is normal because without a Martin or Gina to study then those that follow only have the examples available to them.

We have invented a way to pretty much insure that the ends stay put forever for the GTF cases. So far 3 years and counting it seems to be working.

But yeah, the real credit goes to Martin for the hand-finished ends and then to Gina for the flush slip cover case.

To be fair slip cover cases have been made for centuries. But as far as I can tell the modern version using nested extrusion tubes started with Ernie at Gina.

Note: There may be examples of the flush-lid slip cover style as Viking Cases which were also from the 60s.

(I don't have any examples of the Gina - Maybe someone else could provide some?)

Martin:

http://jbcases.com/cases/CaseHistory/Harvey%20Martin/martin-end.jpg

http://jbcases.com/cases/CaseHistory/Harvey%20Martin/19%20%20fats%20Hubert%20Cokes%20(350%20x%20354).jp g


Fellini:

http://jbcases.com/cases/CaseHistory/Fellini/DSC02034-sm.jpg

http://jbcases.com/cases/CaseHistory/Fellini/case4.JPG


Engles:

http://jbcases.com/cases/CaseHistory/Engles-Kelli/img0177ho9.jpg

http://jbcases.com/cases/CaseHistory/Engles-Kelli/img0185lz1.jpg

http://jbcases.com/cases/CaseHistory/Engles-Kelli/top-opened-full-2.jpg


GTF:

http://jbcases.com/cases/GTF-Cases/P1060693.JPG
http://jbcases.com/cases/GTF-Cases/P1060884.JPG

http://jbcases.com/cases/GTF-Cases/GTF-Capacity/Romeo-Juliet/P6100169.JPG

bstroud
09-20-2017, 06:53 AM
Let's see, after Martin we have Gina, Viking, Adam, Fellini, Centennial, Ann Gore/Manx, It's George, Schon, Kelli, McDermott, Ron Thomas and GTF.

Did I miss any?

Thanks.

Will Prout[/QUOTE]

Will, as you probably remember when Dan and I were together as Joss Cues we made about 50 tube type cases in 1969-71. They were all wrapped with leather and were only large enough for a butt and 2 shafts. We used a variety of different leathers.

I had a Martin case for many years that I bought from Lassiter at Beanies for $100.00. Sold it to Denny Glenn.

I still have an original Gina case like the one you have with Kelly's cue. Ernie made it for me in exchange for some shafts.

Bill S.

alphadog
09-20-2017, 08:25 AM
The 434th J.Flowers brand case made by Jiasen in 2013.

sir thanks for the reply.

I am aware of those facts as they are on the case. what I would like clarified is the Jiasen connection/story?

the video is rather confusing as to this matter.

T I A

Maxx
09-20-2017, 09:16 AM
In the JB post quoted above, who made the case in the picture from Wolfbite, is it an Engles?
I have one very similar, but it has no tag.

Rereading it, it is listed under Engles and before GTF, so I guess I need to work on reading comprehension!

Dana Bufalo
09-20-2017, 12:24 PM
Will, as you probably remember when Dan and I were together as Joss Cues we made about 50 tube type cases in 1969-71. They were all wrapped with leather and were only large enough for a butt and 2 shafts. We used a variety of different leathers.

I had a Martin case for many years that I bought from Lassiter at Beanies for $100.00. Sold it to Denny Glenn.

I still have an original Gina case like the one you have with Kelly's cue. Ernie made it for me in exchange for some shafts.

Bill S.

Hello Bill,

I believe this may be one of the Joss cases you are referring to.., this particular one was recovered by Mike Roberts (It's George) when it became too tattered.

http://i67.tinypic.com/2v028mw.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/30hlp3d.jpg

Chopdoc
09-20-2017, 01:01 PM
Hello Bill,

I believe this may be one of the Joss cases you are referring to..

Very cool.

I never knew about these.

How are they identified?

They look "tight" like a Kelli case.

.

JB Cases
09-20-2017, 01:36 PM
sir thanks for the reply.

I am aware of those facts as they are on the case. what I would like clarified is the Jiasen connection/story?

the video is rather confusing as to this matter.

T I A

Jiasen made the J.Flowers series cases in 2013. Originally I wanted Jiasen to make the J.Flowers cases. They proved unable to make them consistently so I took over the production until such time as they could do it. By 2013 they were doing them all.

Mr. Bond
09-21-2017, 10:43 PM
470866
.............................................

Mr. Bond
09-21-2017, 11:11 PM
Hoppe's Brunswick case circa 1952 470867

Mr. Bond
09-22-2017, 12:09 AM
Wooden cue case design published in 1878

470868

bstroud
09-22-2017, 07:32 AM
Hello Bill,

I believe this may be one of the Joss cases you are referring to.., this particular one was recovered by Mike Roberts (It's George) when it became too tattered.

http://i67.tinypic.com/2v028mw.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/30hlp3d.jpg

Dana,

That is one of the cases Dan and I made together at Joss Cues.
The color of the interior lining is correct as is the latch.

Bill S.

JB Cases
09-23-2017, 01:26 PM
Hoppe's Brunswick case circa 1952 470867

What a great picture David. Any chance that I could get a copy of it to print out for my shop?

Ken_4fun
09-23-2017, 01:44 PM
Did Ann Gore pass away?

I thought I remember 5-10 years ago, someone was going to start making Fellini cases again.

Great thread.

Ken

runscott
09-23-2017, 01:46 PM
Did Ann Gore pass away?

I thought I remember 5-10 years ago, someone was going to start making Fellini cases again.

Great thread.

Ken

Isn't that John's GTF cases?

ibuycues
09-23-2017, 06:29 PM
Did Ann Gore pass away?

I thought I remember 5-10 years ago, someone was going to start making Fellini cases again.

Great thread.

Ken

Ken,

If memory serves me, that was half fast bankr.

Will Prout

ibuycues
09-23-2017, 06:35 PM
Thanks.

Will Prout

Will, as you probably remember when Dan and I were together as Joss Cues we made about 50 tube type cases in 1969-71. They were all wrapped with leather and were only large enough for a butt and 2 shafts. We used a variety of different leathers.

I had a Martin case for many years that I bought from Lassiter at Beanies for $100.00. Sold it to Denny Glenn.

I still have an original Gina case like the one you have with Kelly's cue. Ernie made it for me in exchange for some shafts.

Bill S.[/QUOTE]



Bill,

I remember well. We spoke about cases on several occasions over the years! I wish I had one of the cases you made back then!

By the way, when I bought the Kelly cue years ago, the case was long gone!

Will Prout

Mr. Bond
09-23-2017, 07:46 PM
What a great picture David. Any chance that I could get a copy of it to print out for my shop?

As we speak, I have a restoration specialist preparing several special vintage photos to be printed as posters.

I will gladly let you know, the minute they become available.

ibuycues
09-23-2017, 08:18 PM
As we speak, I have a restoration specialist preparing several special vintage photos to be printed as posters.

I will gladly let you know, the minute they become available.

Great picture Mr. Bond!
Thanks for posting it.
Will Prout

runscott
09-28-2017, 12:53 PM
Wonderful post John! I appreciate you taking the time to save all this history and for taking the time to write it out. I'm especially interested in Ann Gore's work since she was supposed to be from my area.

Just need more pictures! Love seeing the classic cases and their evolution. Or retro~reinvention.

Thank you!

Here's an Ann Gore I just received:

runscott
09-28-2017, 01:04 PM
For perspective, here are other 1x2's: It's George, Ann Gore, Centennial, Fellini

ctyhntr
09-28-2017, 03:57 PM
Is that a Brunswick marked It's George case? I see the end caps have bumper strips.

For perspective, here are other 1x2's: It's George, Ann Gore, Centennial, Fellini

runscott
09-28-2017, 04:14 PM
Is that a Brunswick marked It's George case? I see the end caps have bumper strips.

It isn't marked 'Brunswick' anywhere.

Chopdoc
09-28-2017, 05:00 PM
That's a great Gore case. Looks like the one I almost went after on Ebay.

I don't have one yet.



.

runscott
09-28-2017, 05:27 PM
That's a great Gore case. Looks like the one I almost went after on Ebay.

I don't have one yet.



.

I picked it up here. Very simple refurbish job - light brown die to cover up blemishes and a nice coat of polish.

Chopdoc
09-28-2017, 09:27 PM
I picked it up here. Very simple refurbish job - light brown die to cover up blemishes and a nice coat of polish.

Very nicely done. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Big pay off for relatively little effort.


.

ctyhntr
09-29-2017, 12:07 AM
Thank you! I've only seen those style end caps on cases marked Brunswick. I'm a fan of tube cases, so this helps with my understanding on the evolution of It's George cases.

http://www.indyq.com/cases/brunswick/brunswick-102/brunswick-102-enlargement.html

It isn't marked 'Brunswick' anywhere.

Chopdoc
01-13-2018, 06:04 AM
Bump for a cool thread and....

Anybody know what this is? "Fellini style" with silver button closure on body of case. I do not have the case in hand to give more details.

I know I have seen this before but can't remember and can't find in my files.

Large pics:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dj0AAOSwrnRaWQrZ/s-l1600.jpg

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Wz4AAOSw3sRaWQrn/s-l1600.jpg

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/-pkAAOSwGBhaWQrk/s-l1600.jpg

https://img2.iwascoding.com/0/2018/01/12/03/D56F7640D9FB0135C9FC543D7EF8F2BE.jpg

Thanks for any info.

.

cue fix
01-13-2018, 10:15 AM
Looks like the Meucci cases

Chopdoc
01-14-2018, 03:38 PM
Looks like the Meucci cases

It's not a Meucci "Tough Love" case. They were made with injection molded foam like a Porper case but in sort of a Fellini style.

Were there Meucci cases like this one? I have pics of these cases in my files but neglected to label them.



.

WildWing
01-14-2018, 04:02 PM
Bump for a cool thread and....

Anybody know what this is? "Fellini style" with silver button closure on body of case. I do not have the case in hand to give more details.

I know I have seen this before but can't remember and can't find in my files.

Large pics:
Thanks for any info.


Sure looks like a Gore, not a Fellini. But, I don't remember that small button release on either, to be honest.

All the best,
WW

ibuycues
01-15-2018, 03:07 AM
Bump for a cool thread and....

Anybody know what this is? "Fellini style" with silver button closure on body of case. I do not have the case in hand to give more details.

I know I have seen this before but can't remember and can't find in my files.

Large pics:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dj0AAOSwrnRaWQrZ/s-l1600.jpg

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Wz4AAOSw3sRaWQrn/s-l1600.jpg

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/-pkAAOSwGBhaWQrk/s-l1600.jpg

https://img2.iwascoding.com/0/2018/01/12/03/D56F7640D9FB0135C9FC543D7EF8F2BE.jpg

Thanks for any info.

.

Hi Chopdoc,
I have a case with the identical round push-in latch.
I've owned for 25+ years.
Smooth black, in unused like new condition.
I picked it up along the way because of the latch.
I have no answer as to the maker, but can attest now that
there are at least two of them! :thumbup: :thumbup:

Will Prout

PRED
01-15-2018, 07:21 AM
Early Schon my guess.

Looks to be the same size as a Schon and many case makers used different latches at some point.

deanoc
01-15-2018, 06:02 PM
This has really been a fun read+

My cases started with Brunswick( mainly the cardboard box but also the Hustler style ) ,Palmer,Fellini,Ann Gore, Kelli,,Mc Dermott,Centennial,Its George,Del Webb,Oneal
Thomas,Greg Price,Rusty Thomas,King,JB(allsorts)

Of the Brunswick ,or gunsmith Hustler cases which have the most romance,I have to give credit to
JB for my favorite,Rusty Melton gets the nod for the tooling cases,and Oneal for the suitcase style

All of these cases for me personally convicts me of a misspent youth


Of all the cases i had,i never had a Justise or Flowers,no reflection on these guys
If there were a hall of fame case maker,both of these guys would be there

Thanks for the thread
Dean

ibuycues
01-16-2018, 05:12 AM
This has really been a fun read+

My cases started with Brunswick( mainly the cardboard box but also the Hustler style ) ,Palmer,Fellini,Ann Gore, Kelli,,Mc Dermott,Centennial,Its George,Del Webb,Oneal
Thomas,Greg Price,Rusty Thomas,King,JB(allsorts)

Of the Brunswick ,or gunsmith Hustler cases which have the most romance,I have to give credit to
JB for my favorite,Rusty Melton gets the nod for the tooling cases,and Oneal for the suitcase style

All of these cases for me personally convicts me of a misspent youth


Of all the cases i had,i never had a Justise or Flowers,no reflection on these guys
If there were a hall of fame case maker,both of these guys would be there

Thanks for the thread
Dean

Nice post!
Will Prout

Chopdoc
01-16-2018, 01:39 PM
Hi Chopdoc,
I have a case with the identical round push-in latch.
I've owned for 25+ years.
Smooth black, in unused like new condition.
I picked it up along the way because of the latch.
I have no answer as to the maker, but can attest now that
there are at least two of them! :thumbup: :thumbup:

Will Prout

I have pictures of a smooth black one in my files.

I have seen these before and thought I knew what they were but just can't think of what they were and I have no notes on them, just pictures.

.

Chopdoc
01-16-2018, 01:58 PM
Early Schon my guess.

Looks to be the same size as a Schon and many case makers used different latches at some point.

Indeed latches have varied on some maker's cases. But this one is unusual and I have seen only three or four.

And some makers never varied latches AFAIK. Such as Fellini...I never saw any of them that used a latch other than the traditional diary lock.


Schon? Maybe...I still don't know...


.

Chopdoc
01-20-2018, 08:57 AM
This has really been a fun read+

My cases started with Brunswick( mainly the cardboard box but also the Hustler style ) ,Palmer,Fellini,Ann Gore, Kelli,,Mc Dermott,Centennial,Its George,Del Webb,Oneal
Thomas,Greg Price,Rusty Thomas,King,JB(allsorts)

Of the Brunswick ,or gunsmith Hustler cases which have the most romance,I have to give credit to
JB for my favorite,Rusty Melton gets the nod for the tooling cases,and Oneal for the suitcase style

All of these cases for me personally convicts me of a misspent youth


Of all the cases i had,i never had a Justise or Flowers,no reflection on these guys
If there were a hall of fame case maker,both of these guys would be there

Thanks for the thread
Dean


I dig this thread, and your contributions here are excellent. I respect your opinions and experiences. And when you put things in terms of "romance" I can't help but think we share an appreciation of such things that transcends technical matters.

I love the history, the "romance", the nostalgia.

A cue or case need not be famous or fancy to capture such qualities.

.

Chopdoc
01-20-2018, 09:02 AM
Well guys, I have the case in hand.

It is a treasure.

It needs a little cleaning but will be looking very nice soon. Aside from needeing cleaned, the condition is excellent.

The leather seams are flawless and in general the case is of excellent quality in both materials and construction.

The latch mechanism is wonderful. Inside the lid where the pin engages there is even a little grommet to prevent wearing the plastic.

The lining is in excellent condition, but loose and needs re-glued, only a tiny bit of glue remains holding it. This actually makes me happy as I will get a look inside at the latch mechanism.

I have only seen a couple of these, I am still hoping to ID it. The dimensions of the tubes don't match anything I have.

.

PRED
01-20-2018, 09:21 AM
Well guys, I have the case in hand.

It is a treasure.

It needs a little cleaning but will be looking very nice soon. Aside from needeing cleaned, the condition is excellent.

The leather seams are flawless and in general the case is of excellent quality in both materials and construction.

The latch mechanism is wonderful. Inside the lit where the pin engages there is even a little grommet to prevent wearing the plastic.

The lining is in excellent condition, but loose and needs re-glued, only a tiny bit of glue remains holding it. This actually makes me happy as I will get a look inside at the latch mechanism.

I have only seen a couple of these, I am still hoping to ID it. The dimensions of the tubes don't match anything I have.

.
What is the OD? Do you have a Schon to compare?

Measure it for your answer. IBUYCUES dated it to the early days of tube style slip joint cases and the other characteristics says it's an early Schon before the diary lock. Consider the quality and execution and it all adds up. The last piece of this puzzle are the dimensions. IBUYCUES can confirm if you both have the same size case.

Post some pics of the lock mechanism and the slip joint, the ends too.

Chopdoc
01-20-2018, 03:58 PM
What is the OD? Do you have a Schon to compare?

Measure it for your answer. IBUYCUES dated it to the early days of tube style slip joint cases and the other characteristics says it's an early Schon before the diary lock. Consider the quality and execution and it all adds up. The last piece of this puzzle are the dimensions. IBUYCUES can confirm if you both have the same size case.

Post some pics of the lock mechanism and the slip joint, the ends too.

I'll try to get all that tomorrow.

WildWing
01-20-2018, 04:35 PM
Well guys, I have the case in hand.

It is a treasure.

It needs a little cleaning but will be looking very nice soon. Aside from needeing cleaned, the condition is excellent.

The leather seams are flawless and in general the case is of excellent quality in both materials and construction.

The latch mechanism is wonderful. Inside the lid where the pin engages there is even a little grommet to prevent wearing the plastic.

The lining is in excellent condition, but loose and needs re-glued, only a tiny bit of glue remains holding it. This actually makes me happy as I will get a look inside at the latch mechanism.

I have only seen a couple of these, I am still hoping to ID it. The dimensions of the tubes don't match anything I have.
.

I love these kind of cases. It would be nice to see it after you've cleaned it up. Don't know about you, but I like a regimen of possibly Neatsfoot oil, then Lexol, then some Kiwi polish to really make it shine. This one really does look nice.

All the best,
WW

PRED
01-20-2018, 05:26 PM
I love these kind of cases. It would be nice to see it after you've cleaned it up. Don't know about you, but I like a regimen of possibly Neatsfoot oil, then Lexol, then some Kiwi polish to really make it shine. This one really does look nice.

All the best,
WW

Looks like it is covered with suede.

runscott
01-20-2018, 06:19 PM
I love these kind of cases. It would be nice to see it after you've cleaned it up. Don't know about you, but I like a regimen of possibly Neatsfoot oil, then Lexol, then some Kiwi polish to really make it shine. This one really does look nice.

All the best,
WW

I'm curious if anyone else uses shoe polish on their cases. The only situation I could see doing that would be a shiny smooth hard leather case. Kiwi black shoe polish has ruined many a Hoppe Pro black leather wrap.

WildWing
01-20-2018, 06:35 PM
I'm curious if anyone else uses shoe polish on their cases. The only situation I could see doing that would be a shiny smooth hard leather case. Kiwi black shoe polish has ruined many a Hoppe Pro black leather wrap.

For smooth veg-tanned leather, I recommend it. So does Jack Justis.

All the best,
WW

WildWing
01-20-2018, 06:37 PM
Looks like it is covered with suede.

Sure doesn't look like suede to me. To shiny. But only Doc knows for sure.

All the best,
WW

Rusty Melton
01-20-2018, 06:45 PM
I'm curious if anyone else uses shoe polish on their cases. The only situation I could see doing that would be a shiny smooth hard leather case. Kiwi black shoe polish has ruined many a Hoppe Pro black leather wrap.

Kiwi is great on veg-tan leather. The case you have that I made, I would recommend Kiwi Cordovan or Kiwi Neutral for it. But on black veg-tan I have had terrible luck with Kiwi, it seems to pull the black color out of the leather every time I have used it.

PRED
01-20-2018, 07:24 PM
Kiwi is great on veg-tan leather. The case you have that I made, I would recommend Kiwi Cordovan or Kiwi Neutral for it. But on black veg-tan I have had terrible luck with Kiwi, it seems to pull the black color out of the leather every time I have used it.

I use Saphir neutral

ibuycues
01-20-2018, 09:04 PM
I have pictures of a smooth black one in my files.

I have seen these before and thought I knew what they were but just can't think of what they were and I have no notes on them, just pictures.

.

Hi Chopdoc,

I dug out my case with the round latch.
I've owned the case for 25+ years, and can attest to the rarity.
I just wanted to add some pictures to the thread.
The button latch is straightforward; when pushed in, you can see
the metal "dot" that depresses and releases the lid. :thumbup:

Will Prout

HawaiianEye
01-20-2018, 09:15 PM
I'm curious if anyone else uses shoe polish on their cases. The only situation I could see doing that would be a shiny smooth hard leather case. Kiwi black shoe polish has ruined many a Hoppe Pro black leather wrap.

I use Kiwi shoe polish on my brown Fellini case.

runscott
01-20-2018, 09:57 PM
Kiwi is great on veg-tan leather. The case you have that I made, I would recommend Kiwi Cordovan or Kiwi Neutral for it. But on black veg-tan I have had terrible luck with Kiwi, it seems to pull the black color out of the leather every time I have used it.

Thanks (WW also) - I am sort of surprised you recommend Kiwi but glad to learn something new. I haven't touched yours yet, as it arrived in great condition. I have been using Mother's on cases and wraps. I have good methods for refurbishing cases, but not for new scuffs and cuts that expose raw leather. I have been ignoring them but recently roughed up a smooth mottled brown case. I had planned to use a little dye, sheen and Mother's, but now might try Kiwi.

Chopdoc
01-20-2018, 09:58 PM
Hi Chopdoc,

I dug out my case with the round latch.
I've owned the case for 25+ years, and can attest to the rarity.
I just wanted to add some pictures to the thread.
The button latch is straightforward; when pushed in, you can see
the metal "dot" that depresses and releases the lid. :thumbup:

Will Prout

Really nice example. Thank you for posting it.


.

Chopdoc
01-20-2018, 10:00 PM
Sure doesn't look like suede to me. To shiny. But only Doc knows for sure.

All the best,
WW

It is suede.

The top of the case is just worn shiny as sued gets sometimes.

It can be cleaned/restored.

You can actually finish/polish sued, which is controversial, some say you cant...but you can.

If for some reason this case could not be cleaned up I would finish it in a polished smooth black.


.

Chopdoc
01-20-2018, 10:05 PM
I'm curious if anyone else uses shoe polish on their cases. The only situation I could see doing that would be a shiny smooth hard leather case. Kiwi black shoe polish has ruined many a Hoppe Pro black leather wrap.

I believe the old Hoppe Pro wrap is a finished leather, the solvents in the polish will remove that finish I believe.


.

runscott
01-20-2018, 10:06 PM
It is suede.

The top of the case is just worn shiny as sued gets sometimes.

It can be cleaned/restored.

You can actually finish/polish sued, which is controversial, some say you cant...but you can.

If for some reason this case could not be cleaned up I would finish it in a polished smooth black.


.

I would argue with you about this (finishing it in polished smooth) except you sound like you know what you are talking about, and it is something that I would sure like to know how to do.

I would argue with you because suede is a different cut of leather than the smooth leather, and supposedly cannot be given the 'smooth leather' look. You can get on the internet as I have and google how to make suede smooth, and you will find that it can't be done, and convincing reasons why. Of course, that isn't necessarily accurate information, but that's what I found when trying to figure out how to make a black suede case smooth. Mine is a Centennial that looks 'okay', but not 'great'. I am not a suede fan.

Looking forward to seeing pics of your fix-up and a description of what you did. Thanks.

runscott
01-20-2018, 10:07 PM
I believe the old Hoppe Pro wrap is a finished leather, the solvents in the polish will remove that finish I believe.


.

The Kiwi shoe polish ruins these wraps. I have had several old ones that had never been touched by shoe polish, and they are as supple and gorgeous as today's wraps. But shoe polish was the way everyone went with these, so it's tough to find one that hasn't been trashed.

Chopdoc
01-20-2018, 10:13 PM
Kiwi is great on veg-tan leather. The case you have that I made, I would recommend Kiwi Cordovan or Kiwi Neutral for it. But on black veg-tan I have had terrible luck with Kiwi, it seems to pull the black color out of the leather every time I have used it.

It can indeed leach the color out...depending on the leather.

Generally I recommend putting color in and then polish on top, if needed....

There are many reasons I am not a fan of veg tan. Obviously it is necessary for tooling leather, but I am not a tooling fan.

My favorite is simple black oil tan. Color all the way through and wears like iron. Hard to cut, hard to form...tough stuff...but that's the reason the best motorcycle boots are made of it.

I may sit and work on this tomorrow. Gentle cleaning, taking time....it's suede. The shiny parts need cleaned and the nap raised up again with a brush, it's just matted down, not worn off.

If it goes South on me I'll do it in a smooth black polish. Sacrilege to suede fans but it does work, I have done it before.


.

Chopdoc
01-20-2018, 10:20 PM
I would argue with you about this (finishing it in polished smooth) except you sound like you know what you are talking about, and it is something that I would sure like to know how to do.

I would argue with you because suede is a different cut of leather than the smooth leather, and supposedly cannot be given the 'smooth leather' look. You can get on the internet as I have and google how to make suede smooth, and you will find that it can't be done, and convincing reasons why. Of course, that isn't necessarily accurate information, but that's what I found when trying to figure out how to make a black suede case smooth. Mine is a Centennial that looks 'okay', but not 'great'. I am not a suede fan.

Looking forward to seeing pics of your fix-up and a description of what you did. Thanks.

Suede is certainly different than a finished leather. But if you want...you can just finish it.

Color, then polish, then light sanding to remove the remaining nap, then polish again.

Picture some good scuffs in a shoe where the leather is exposed and rough. It is essentially just suede at that point. It can be re-colored and refinished and you will never see the scuff.

Same deal but instead of a scuff it's the entire surface.

With something this big I would probably use the buffing wheel in the garage.



I am not a suede fan either but this is a rare case and I jumped on it.

.

JB Cases
01-21-2018, 07:53 PM
you can literally shave suede and then fill up the nap with leather conditioner to "stuff" it and achieve a smooth finish. It is, however, a messy affair and requires a lot of handwork to alter the surface texture.

I would not recommend it to anyone who values their time.

Chopdoc
01-22-2018, 12:23 PM
you can literally shave suede and then fill up the nap with leather conditioner to "stuff" it and achieve a smooth finish. It is, however, a messy affair and requires a lot of handwork to alter the surface texture.

I would not recommend it to anyone who values their time.


That'w why I would use my big buffing wheel. LOL!

But yeah...labor intensive.

By far not the first choice, but if the suede is beyond cleaning, raising the nap, and maybe fixing color issues...it becomes the only option short of re-covering the case.

This case should clean up nice anyway so likely the point is moot.

I haven't touched it yet.
.

runscott
04-13-2018, 11:57 AM
Here is a Kitangiri (out of business) fly rod case that I have been carrying 2 cues and 2 shafts in. It was made in Australia from buffalo. It's 32.5" long and the interior is almost 3" across. Sturdy, attractive - just needs something for the interior to hold the items. I've been using a felt 1x2 sleeve.

Michael Andros
04-13-2018, 12:51 PM
Here is a Kitangiri (out of business) fly rod case that I have been carrying 2 cues and 2 shafts in. It was made in Australia from buffalo. It's 32.5" long and the interior is almost 3" across. Sturdy, attractive - just needs something for the interior to hold the items. I've been using a felt 1x2 sleeve.

What a phenomenal thread! TONS of stuff of which I had NO earthly idea... wow. Great info.

galipeau
04-13-2018, 01:20 PM
Here is a Kitangiri (out of business) fly rod case that I have been carrying 2 cues and 2 shafts in. It was made in Australia from buffalo. It's 32.5" long and the interior is almost 3" across. Sturdy, attractive - just needs something for the interior to hold the items. I've been using a felt 1x2 sleeve.That is so cool!!!

Ask John Barton for an ultrapad insert he can sell you one separately maybe. Or you can have an upholstery shop see you one. Thin foam sandwiched between cloth.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

runscott
04-13-2018, 04:28 PM
That is so cool!!!

Ask John Barton for an ultrapad insert he can sell you one separately maybe. Or you can have an upholstery shop see you one. Thin foam sandwiched between cloth.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Thanks, I was going to contact John. The first thing I did was take one of the 2x4 felt inserts from my JB Dealer case and try to modify it, but that was a fail. When I bought the dealer case John offered me all sorts of options for the inserts, so I know he can come up with something.

galipeau
04-13-2018, 04:31 PM
Thanks, I was going to contact John. The first thing I did was take one of the 2x4 felt inserts from my JB Dealer case and try to modify it, but that was a fail. When I bought the dealer case John offered me all sorts of options for the inserts, so I know he can come up with something.I have cloth lined PVC tubes in mine

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Chopdoc
04-18-2018, 06:32 AM
OK-

So what the heck is this brown oval case? http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=473524


And for your viewing pleasure, some cases:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ZC4LNKH5pk0/USlSMPIf9uI/AAAAAAAAAzg/xlDNeEestvQ/s720/IMG_0965.JPG

Michael Andros
04-18-2018, 07:10 AM
OK-

So what the heck is this brown oval case? http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=473524


And for your viewing pleasure, some cases:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ZC4LNKH5pk0/USlSMPIf9uI/AAAAAAAAAzg/xlDNeEestvQ/s720/IMG_0965.JPG

Second from right... Fellini, yes?

Chopdoc
09-10-2018, 07:27 PM
Bump for a cool thread and....

Anybody know what this is? "Fellini style" with silver button closure on body of case. I do not have the case in hand to give more details.

I know I have seen this before but can't remember and can't find in my files.

Large pics:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/dj0AAOSwrnRaWQrZ/s-l1600.jpg

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Wz4AAOSw3sRaWQrn/s-l1600.jpg

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/-pkAAOSwGBhaWQrk/s-l1600.jpg

https://img2.iwascoding.com/0/2018/01/12/03/D56F7640D9FB0135C9FC543D7EF8F2BE.jpg

Thanks for any info.

.

I keep a Palmer first catalog Model 9 in this case. I don't think the case is era correct, but it sure looks the part.

OK, so I finally got around to cleaning this case. I had pneumonia and was a bit laid up, stuck at home over the weekend. Feeling much better now. Since I was basically sitting at home I decided to haul out that case and work on it. HUGE payoff for the time involved and it was very easy.

I also did some dent removal on a couple shafts that came out great.

The case turned out "like new". Amazing. No need to dye it, or go for a smooth leather look. The suede came our really awesome.

I will post pics soon.

I should really get some pics with some of my other cases...we'll see if I get time.

If anybody knows what the heck this is, please post.

We found one other that was posted: https://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=6068733&postcount=116

.

.

Chopdoc
09-10-2018, 07:28 PM
Second from right... Fellini, yes?

Yes. That is the original case to my first cue, my block letter Joss. Had it since 1985.

.

galipeau
09-10-2018, 08:41 PM
That button latch is the tits

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

runscott
09-12-2018, 04:13 PM
I recently picked up a Fellini that has the seam on the back spread apart a bit much. I am going to have to refinish it anyway - is there anything short of removing the leather from the plastic, that can be done to get the seams closer together?

PRED
09-12-2018, 04:22 PM
I recently picked up a Fellini that has the seam on the back spread apart a bit much. I am going to have to refinish it anyway - is there anything short of removing the leather from the plastic, that can be done to get the seams closer together?

Not without marring the leather. I wanted to add softening the leather at the seam, stretching it, and quickly gluing it in place might yield desired results, but doubtful.

IMO removing the leather is not a viable option because of the riveted lock. There is no way to remove the lock and replace it with a NOS lock over new leather. You might be satisfied with new leather and not replacing the lock if the top has a super tight fit. That still leaves visible holes in the top from the lock. With all of that you still have to be able to replicate the finished ends with the new leather, another monumental task.

If the seam separation is uniform then gluing a strip of leather in the gap might be your best move, then refinish the leather to mask the inserted strip. Fellinis have a flat land about 1.5" wide on the front and back. You can cut a strip wide enough to make it easier to replace the one separated seam with two new tight seams. Take care to match up the width with the finished ends and their angle cuts for a clean look.

PRED
09-12-2018, 04:25 PM
And for your viewing pleasure, some cases:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ZC4LNKH5pk0/USlSMPIf9uI/AAAAAAAAAzg/xlDNeEestvQ/s720/IMG_0965.JPG

That iconic lock has no equal

runscott
09-12-2018, 04:53 PM
Not without marring the leather. I wanted to add softening the leather at the seam, stretching it, and quickly gluing it in place might yield desired results, but doubtful.

IMO removing the leather is not a viable option because of the riveted lock. There is no way to remove the lock and replace it with a NOS lock over new leather. You might be satisfied with new leather and not replacing the lock if the top has a super tight fit. That still leaves visible holes in the top from the lock. With all of that you still have to be able to replicate the finished ends with the new leather, another monumental task.

If the seam separation is uniform then gluing a strip of leather in the gap might be your best move, then refinish the leather to mask the inserted strip. Fellinis have a flat land about 1.5" wide on the front and back. You can cut a strip wide enough to make it easier to replace the one separated seam with two new tight seams. Take care to match up the width with the finished ends and their angle cuts for a clean look.

Thanks. Have you ever seen the results of someone trying the technique you describe?

PRED
09-12-2018, 05:51 PM
Thanks. Have you ever seen the results of someone trying the technique you describe?

No, I have not. I would add matching the thickness and grain of the original leather would be critical in your success using that technique.

I have observed both glue and caulk used in an attempt to fill the gap, with horrendous results.

knicks
09-12-2018, 06:23 PM
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=227715

Hi John, what is your opinion of the Talisman Case

RakRunr
09-13-2018, 08:28 AM
That iconic lock has no equal

My "It's George" case, circa 1990, has that style lock.

runscott
09-19-2018, 02:30 PM
Tooled Fellini

I intended to just clean the abrasions and spot-dye with light brown, as a restoration; however, I made an early mistake and forced to go 'all the way'. It turned out good but I would have done black instead of dark brown if I had known I was doing a complete re-dye (sans tooled areas).

ebay auction (https://www.ebay.com/itm/312227198777)

I elected not to repair the seam gap but the cap gap and unglued areas were too extreme. I removed the center leather piece and glued a thin piece of leather over it and around the edges, then sanded until it fit. I might dye it a matching brown later, but it looks pretty good like this.

Chopdoc
09-19-2018, 02:45 PM
Turned out nice. I saw that sale and considered it.

By the way, you can fill those gouges and cuts and they will be imperceptible.

Here is one product site with instructional videos. https://www.rubnrestore.com/

Those gouges mid way down the front of the case could be made to go away completely.

You can buy leather filler rather cheap. You can sand it, texture it to match, and dye it.

.

runscott
09-19-2018, 02:49 PM
Thanks for the information. I didn't think it was worth what I had to pay, but I had a repair vision and just needed to try it. It could have been a really bad gamble.

Chopdoc
09-19-2018, 03:04 PM
Definitely was worth the effort.

It's a nice case. :thumbup:

I need to get pics of my suede case to post....

I am going to play hookie and get on my Harley. I had enough of work. Had pneumonia and kept working. I am done with it.

I'll go get some pics now.

runscott
09-19-2018, 03:16 PM
I would love to describe the detail of this restoration but it would bore everyone to death. Suffice to say it was a solid 4 hour effort plus a lot of planning. I have a recipe for spot-dying that I screwed up. Now me and my dog are sitting in the sun having a beer.

Get well!

Chopdoc
09-19-2018, 03:26 PM
Before:

Lots of scuffs, dark black stains, matted nap.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Z8vfiQK76DDIrzM49LNZnOvOj1NYigmdVwEfzVhOfGmRM_FEgD yKDSZg7kRGZtfEyQvfBHkqyoz3b0RP0WdCxtlkoAHtvlxG5Cdn jfnMsSw45tC6SuhzE0CQd0Ok0cysdyh4lQpZNB7Bq_XrVYdUfv eWgh0ei53g5RRAlw7QNEPqwWrQadbF4MIpiPPJGqiSx3r-oh-TskPVbwlcKuvBjZT_2gOxeeu3yM-z1AEyJ93IE4o_do_80NFrqjEetZalMv2kbd7SXmm8JMI6J_5gH RDdfuvCzwT37KLUnHHyAluDA26rx2uG5E7cDMif3BPBtZqibAW 2YFXxnuv0m3bDm9uXnsYs2qnwoJ1QmgJOZsfAlN4Y7OTidELAz g2qThoXkaawAIcXRRFPcaNjzJ6m0FJzPWMSkyAE9Q2gzczD5Cc guYHgTw2kfDDIlGxwGzotPsNWhV2zr96NAly7LhGgOqCD-E5rZtRZSamFErh6GWmZM4BL-G9LSbHxcDxK-S_5O8NKNy0ZgtTIJ_dofw1nygh8S1UfrUA9mBDlL5QLrOKMtIL 2Hr1nKtGxEbghDKlKYisuycY_E5GjeVMcSe0Nn4jFITzCaAAhT NpWj5swt6v6q4JffQ3pKsLb75Nh08dZ6fzz9hac8Nd1SFdYyHl 1Wzb-Xu2CUu2pUU2VeQXNcHwqvuzf7iHWeeFK=w731-h974-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/uME_IKVbFfvhMdAoANrB2yaNuMkPGfJFw7PGkTuQLyLQ1bw2ve YvnnH4BVa9S_iNJ26-US4UBopI6GLczll4GB3Pz3EyXg3Qc5kHpfehbHh5hqylxsA_Jt UDoNqyx44ShR6ffAasaWSQxlr8G15O51P-8lOKYoKHotkQ9Cq5dL0tsTh8j6FWCLwwkgpk2l_DQpNXeHaAsC FdaJCL4-K9V6brog_fzd4fmX5bcpdnEjSGFRsmf8TcIE4qjf-AnMkQope4P7OvPy3Y3fu0h_fS6s1A8N1ARRDmZKYAB9epAdvVh 8fDcMN4PhlQGQ700VcZBU51sZYTwCLCUSXF08pnakGre9kzJPA-tBuOMadQA2xs05K9U1WFTftD3NpTTocYoKWep4R82ez59MV4_Y kvbw7RP0Z8PrUDiDe4GYFdWG09Up148BTGmq6C51xaLwECsLTN uDpSVk_GgQDZZKvF_6VKH81nXtyEsLmDSwBEsLZVr_V6WhMMqQ cbjznuFPpvcsyB1LtAKmNbnOGWcrhtgQ7frZHfO7NPusi1iE__ npzUJ6-fBM9GlPxX8eQhtgAcajyasYczFFNI4yDZPF4RJrTHWRxQF4rny z2Pa-aCV8w1K5A-XW1t3VW3qkwC_QkJUiulk-zscKQRXl8oBDdBUulHGsxRKCUxXEs2n0-W4C86syQszxfDFyvW=w731-h974-no



After:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/rLm-yay8SAjSOxu_RfF2jNi_PtmvjkKEK3fNiITSx0ibBHsO85T3Ph A_pcfeX3KskNf413dwZBGLd6lEId5y0WlCMQa7lGZaIiygUtP4 rrthrGAQSdUnjvLBsvu9F0ZSP72Pye2tautoJDlwl3i3mxchMH sbcbJOR9d964g_259kilY-mGoDIk2y6ZJvt5madWRNQupsQ0OPWFs_ArhjNnQavu3toL0iKu oc7J1KFu7R4MRBYqlf-nV2a_8LxyEdnxNoBv4a9pVA4DkDRI1ZclLdftFIJQgf59sdyEW fLNasYE0FKxRUa7f1nrrxOZy7Z0_jVqaqZQgUXc-MfTE0UVqXnm5_PLl_AdVALgcAsRLvLjrPntWEvmKnVvAev5QvM ypK4o7L0KTHFT02XRTrMF6xT0fLW7sEwXJlGf59y2O-79HP5ECiEzbUKZYsFS8PnHQrf3hx06kkPPEy3VkuRKgriZCAfV nwFPGeX1CgQG_WlCqgg7_E7es0XETJdbjzMP2KmgpfgW0n2lw5 KjDXKb39AC5KDusw5XlIgIl_paulJDgzI6_UXWhLLn3EO2a6q5 wPSin_BJf1Pb1GHL9Y52lxNMzVWzkf2OJy2U1G3pXp39ro7b93 9Od2MvlK-nt9HkWUlWqGCC7YhXXUkLUBmCmxWHE-H1B5UjFeGBOmAnBrqaJhBWVWsn5O=w731-h974-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/EMgTiOnVmomnGnTzZH3kwJ-d2BO1Vmg9zHkVkYgMLVhmFHW0L13U5uBiTVPWuoX7Ayi37qx6l Py-n96oWNkMSsrebygyzj6C4DbhNXgpsfJ2WmwLiznoyUGngCS2BN hHra-InJlFMEBelYFZovflklX7ASTg6MwJKBeXsKucjBpBLvvd5_p9w DNbIAYo3khqHWf1DFaeocUkSrF2oDONS4DFMcElpeSw6Z_vjfe-jWC04LhuAKUZewsE2_aRG-DDRAk6PBjptK3gmFbLGUE-AcpI-3hmIkEiW7BIckispBtwDPB58KPgykKd8kTB-clnQyyMoVjPl5coCqR0Sb1THZi2k22XrXijF5CMEcNvXaYtjBj 21_dgdLbbmtLzR1U0wB5cai6vnha1hrxggQvj3sCS-gJNfBqQMOpSPtjmnFHdwQ3hQKuHPDzwhvpV6o7mGOZSuaAgpvh F1l2T3_CBFAMtRT4NLBaCcAbvitDjlXZvZG_P5qVPfHjoBE-oxYr28X0-F2_nq-ZZHIGNzOybCUMtu4mVN5adGIU-EnlmCB507_Q5bOokMvUdYiTLZ7sg02gJ3e0KDJu2gQiqxzLqiB 0CpIzGSNyT98QmEKLSKHJSrrGl8TluzbFKIjmBguJFvF2t9gpB tRd9updVTLcyoLaVCFpurmYEoC45LMxhy3_MBOP4AsUXSRpJ=w 731-h974-no

It came out great. Liner is like new so no worries there. I keep my Palmer First Catalog Model 9 with two original shafts in this case.

I would still love to know where these cases came from, who made them.

PRED
09-19-2018, 04:15 PM
Beautiful accomplishment! Looks brand new and apropos for your awesome vintage Palmer.

I am still betting early Schon. The tell is in the dimensions. One thing we know about these tube cases is they were made by extrusion. That requires a couple of dies and a minimum quantity run. The variable is what, if any, locking mechanism was employed. The way the ends are finished and the size tells me Schon.

PRED
09-19-2018, 04:19 PM
I would love to describe the detail of this restoration but it would bore everyone to death. Suffice to say it was a solid 4 hour effort plus a lot of planning. I have a recipe for spot-dying that I screwed up. Now me and my dog are sitting in the sun having a beer.

Get well!

Beautiful case that is just fine as is. It has the super rare brass plated diary lock, don't see them often. Is there any sign of Ann Gore's initials on the lower front close to the tooling?

JB Cases
09-19-2018, 05:03 PM
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=227715

Hi John, what is your opinion of the Talisman Case

I haven't seen one in years but the ones I saw about five years ago or more were pretty decent.

JB Cases
09-19-2018, 05:05 PM
Here is a Kitangiri (out of business) fly rod case that I have been carrying 2 cues and 2 shafts in. It was made in Australia from buffalo. It's 32.5" long and the interior is almost 3" across. Sturdy, attractive - just needs something for the interior to hold the items. I've been using a felt 1x2 sleeve.

That is VERY COOL!

runscott
09-19-2018, 06:04 PM
Beautiful case that is just fine as is. It has the super rare brass plated diary lock, don't see them often. Is there any sign of Ann Gore's initials on the lower front close to the tooling?

Thanks. Nothing but the tooling.

Chopdoc
09-20-2018, 05:46 AM
Beautiful accomplishment! Looks brand new and apropos for your awesome vintage Palmer.

I am still betting early Schon. The tell is in the dimensions. One thing we know about these tube cases is they were made by extrusion. That requires a couple of dies and a minimum quantity run. The variable is what, if any, locking mechanism was employed. The way the ends are finished and the size tells me Schon.

Thanks. I think it pairs great with my Palmer even though it is from a different era.

Schon? Interesting thought. I don't think so. But I do not know.

The latch is very unique. If you go back in the thread you can see pics of another close up. https://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=6068733&postcount=116

It is a simple button to push. Inside the lid the hole that the latch engages is reinforced with a metal grommet. Very well done I think. I have seen mine and two others. They seem to be quite rare.

.

PRED
09-20-2018, 05:52 AM
Thanks. I think it pairs great with my Palmer even though it is from a different era.

Schon? Interesting thought. I don't think so. But I do not know.

The latch is very unique. If you go back in the thread you can see pics of another close up. https://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=6068733&postcount=116

It is a simple button to push. Inside the lid the hole that the latch engages is reinforced with a metal grommet. Very well done I think. I have seen mine and two others. They seem to be quite rare.

.


The latch is not the answer though. There are thousands of different latches but the extruded tubes are rare because of the methods of production. The answer is in the dimensions of the case.

runscott
09-20-2018, 09:00 AM
Before:

After:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/rLm-yay8SAjSOxu_RfF2jNi_PtmvjkKEK3fNiITSx0ibBHsO85T3Ph A_pcfeX3KskNf413dwZBGLd6lEId5y0WlCMQa7lGZaIiygUtP4 rrthrGAQSdUnjvLBsvu9F0ZSP72Pye2tautoJDlwl3i3mxchMH sbcbJOR9d964g_259kilY-mGoDIk2y6ZJvt5madWRNQupsQ0OPWFs_ArhjNnQavu3toL0iKu oc7J1KFu7R4MRBYqlf-nV2a_8LxyEdnxNoBv4a9pVA4DkDRI1ZclLdftFIJQgf59sdyEW fLNasYE0FKxRUa7f1nrrxOZy7Z0_jVqaqZQgUXc-MfTE0UVqXnm5_PLl_AdVALgcAsRLvLjrPntWEvmKnVvAev5QvM ypK4o7L0KTHFT02XRTrMF6xT0fLW7sEwXJlGf59y2O-79HP5ECiEzbUKZYsFS8PnHQrf3hx06kkPPEy3VkuRKgriZCAfV nwFPGeX1CgQG_WlCqgg7_E7es0XETJdbjzMP2KmgpfgW0n2lw5 KjDXKb39AC5KDusw5XlIgIl_paulJDgzI6_UXWhLLn3EO2a6q5 wPSin_BJf1Pb1GHL9Y52lxNMzVWzkf2OJy2U1G3pXp39ro7b93 9Od2MvlK-nt9HkWUlWqGCC7YhXXUkLUBmCmxWHE-H1B5UjFeGBOmAnBrqaJhBWVWsn5O=w731-h974-no

It came out great. Liner is like new so no worries there. I keep my Palmer First Catalog Model 9 with two original shafts in this case.

I would still love to know where these cases came from, who made them.

I can't help with your case's origin, but would you mind sharing how you got the pressed-in suede dents out? I have a Centennial that has some of those, but I'm hesitant to mess with it.

Chopdoc
09-20-2018, 09:36 AM
The latch is not the answer though. There are thousands of different latches but the extruded tubes are rare because of the methods of production. The answer is in the dimensions of the case.

I understand.

The latch groups them to the same maker I think.

The tube dimensions can help ID the maker, of course.

In this case, if we can ID the maker I am pretty certain that any further cases found with this latch will be from the same maker. The most obvious identifying feature in this case is that latch.

I have not measured it yet. But I don't think it is Schon case dimensions.

This case, by the way, is a little short. Maybe a half inch shorter than Fellini...though I have not measured.

Many of these type cases vary more in length than some would suppose, even sometimes from the same maker.

I don't have a Schon case but I have in this style: McDermott, Fellini, Engles, Viking, Kelli, It's George, and more, as well as a couple unknowns.

Most of mine have the "diary lock", which I prefer.

There have been more of these cases made in this style than many suspect. Yes, setting up the extrusion costs a bit up front.

I am looking for cases with the diary lock from:
Joss
It's George Joss
Gore
Centennial
Thomas
Schon
Viking Model CS-200 (genuine Python)
Viking Model CS-100 in Ostrich or Lizard

Also GTF and Kopy Kat, but obviously no diary lock.

I also look for any other interesting cases of this style.


.

Chopdoc
09-20-2018, 09:47 AM
I can't help with your case's origin, but would you mind sharing how you got the pressed-in suede dents out? I have a Centennial that has some of those, but I'm hesitant to mess with it.

The standard advice would be to use a suede brush and suede cleaner.

But I hacked it with stuff I already had on hand..

You can dampen with water. You can dampen with vinegar. There are other solvents obviously.

I used vinegar. I also didn't use an actual suede brush. I used vinegar and three brushes.

Brush 1, for the toughest matting was a brass bristle brush like this:

https://cherokeeindustrial.com/image/cache/catalog/ors/455-271-400x400.jpg

Brush 2, a slightly stiff plastic bristle fingernail brush like this:

https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/mediumlarge/wmr-w985_w_ml.jpg

Brush 3, a similar fingernail brush with softer bristles for the finish.

Finish brushing in one direction only to get the appearance as consistent as possible with the nap all laying in the same direction.

Mine had severe matting on the ends and very black stains along one side. All of it came out. You mentioned "dents". There were some actual small dents like where the case might have been banged up against the sharp edge of a counter or something. Even those came out completely. Case looks darn good IMHO.

I have not seen your case but I bet you can make it look great. The evidence is how severe my case was and how nice it came out.
.

runscott
09-20-2018, 10:38 AM
The standard advice would be to use a suede brush and suede cleaner.

But I hacked it with stuff I already had on hand..

You can dampen with water. You can dampen with vinegar. There are other solvents obviously.

I used vinegar. I also didn't use an actual suede brush. I used vinegar and three brushes.

Brush 1, for the toughest matting was a brass bristle brush like this:

https://cherokeeindustrial.com/image/cache/catalog/ors/455-271-400x400.jpg

Brush 2, a slightly stiff plastic bristle fingernail brush like this:

https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/mediumlarge/wmr-w985_w_ml.jpg

Brush 3, a similar fingernail brush with softer bristles for the finish.

Finish brushing in one direction only to get the appearance as consistent as possible with the nap all laying in the same direction.

Mine had sever matting on the ends and very black stains along one side. All of it came out. You mentioned "dents". There were some actual small dents like where the case might have been banged up against the sharp edge of a counter or something. Even those came out completely. Case looks darn good IMHO.

I have not seen your case but I bet you can make it look great. The evidence is how severe my case was and how nice it came out.
.

Thanks, I have similar brushes on hand as I also do vintage felt hat repair. I'll give it a shot if it doesn't sell soon.

Chopdoc
09-20-2018, 10:47 AM
Thanks, I have similar brushes on hand as I also do vintage felt hat repair. I'll give it a shot if it doesn't sell soon.

Oh, that's right. I did see the case.

Didn't even think of it.

That case looks in nice shape. You might even just try a dry brush first. A few minutes with a dry brush would probably go a long way on that case.

I am definitely keeping mine in a cloth sleeve. I got a few from JB, but now my wife makes them for my cases. I am not a suede fan but I do want to keep this one looking nice and I am not planning to sell.
.

runscott
09-20-2018, 10:51 AM
Oh, that's right. I did see the case.

Didn't even think of it.

That case looks in nice shape. You might even just try a dry brush first. A few minutes with a dry brush would probably go a long way on that case.

I am definitely keeping mine in a cloth sleeve. I got a few from JB, but now my wife makes them for my cases. I am not a suede fan but I do want to keep this one looking nice and I am not planning to sell.
.

I am not a suede fan either. The only reason I've kept this one as long as I have is that Centennials have extra length so it fits my 'pin-in-shaft' shafts.

Chopdoc
09-20-2018, 06:12 PM
Well, I almost went for a couple of your cases, but I have money tied up in other deals at the moment.

The Gore case is a treasure.

I like the Centennial, but not a suede fan.

The Aussie case first caught my eye as we discussed, for the same reason you like it.

Somebody really should snag that Centennial.

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=479996

.

runscott
09-23-2018, 09:37 AM
Well, I almost went for a couple of your cases, but I have money tied up in other deals at the moment.

The Gore case is a treasure.

I like the Centennial, but not a suede fan.

The Aussie case first caught my eye as we discussed, for the same reason you like it.

Somebody really should snag that Centennial.

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=479996

.

Someone mentioned earlier that Ann Gore cases will actually hold a 3rd shaft, while most of the other Fellini-type 1x2 cases will not. I will add that the Centennial will hold extra-long butts and shafts whereas my Fellinis, Anne Gore and George cases would not. If you look in the end-caps in these, quite a bit of room has been filled. I'm sure a little could be removed to fit longer cues - perhaps someone modified the Centennial?