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JoeyA
04-28-2008, 05:30 PM
What kind of English do you use? For this poll we assume that English will be SIDE SPIN ONLY. Draw and follow are not forms of English for this poll.

The English that we are referring to is the English that you most commonly use. If you use mulitiple types of English, choose the one you most commonly use.

Thanks,
JoeyA

SpiderWebComm
04-28-2008, 05:32 PM
What kind of English do you use? For this poll we assume that English will be SIDE SPIN ONLY. Draw and follow are not forms of English for this poll.

Thanks,
JoeyA

Is there supposed to be a poll or are we just posting? English for what - in general?

I like whatever english gets me there while making the shot :)

StevenPWaldon
04-28-2008, 05:35 PM
Ummmmmm..... left and right.


What kind of English do you use? For this poll we assume that English will be SIDE SPIN ONLY. Draw and follow are not forms of English for this poll.

Thanks,
JoeyA

JoeyA
04-28-2008, 05:41 PM
Is there supposed to be a poll or are we just posting? English for what - in general?

I like whatever english gets me there while making the shot :)

You use BHE. Just put it in the poll. :D

I edited my original post to answer your good question. THANKS!

JoeyA

Inaction
04-28-2008, 05:41 PM
Draw and follow are not forms of English, except to newbies.

JoeyA
04-28-2008, 05:45 PM
Ummmmmm..... left and right.

Ummm.......... you use ultra-left. ;)
JoeyA

12squared
04-28-2008, 05:45 PM
What kind of English do you use? For this poll we assume that English will be SIDE SPIN ONLY. Draw and follow are not forms of English for this poll.

The English that we are referring to is the English that you most commonly use. If you use mulitiple types of English, choose the one you most commonly use.

Thanks,
JoeyA

I use the whole cueball. My mother always taught me to not waste anything.

Dave

SpiderWebComm
04-28-2008, 05:47 PM
You use BHE. Just put it in the poll. :D

I edited my original post to answer your good question. THANKS!

JoeyA

Kind of. I actually pivot my body (hip). That way, my eye/cue line is intact. I selected BHE because that's the closest.

JoeyA
04-28-2008, 05:48 PM
Draw and follow are not forms of English, except to newbies.

That's why I put it in there. There may be newbies that would like to answer the poll.

Now I'm going to quit acting like a wizenheimer and just watch the polls.

Thanks for participating!

JoeyA

SpiderWebComm
04-28-2008, 05:57 PM
Wow, no one uses BHE. This is fascinating. I wonder why?

StevenPWaldon
04-28-2008, 05:58 PM
LoL, unless this is a political joke I don't think I get it.

Ummm.......... you use ultra-left. ;)
JoeyA

StevenPWaldon
04-28-2008, 06:22 PM
I think because the options may not be mutually exclusive. One may use BHE on their final stroke, for example (which may force posters to choose between A and B). Also, one may set up the shot/alignment with BHE built into the alignment/stroke. Answers on this poll may very well be discerning between how people "think" about their english application; how conscious they are about squirt, swerve, applications of BHE, FHE.

At the end of the day, applications of english are about the same. For any given shot there is basically one trajectory of the cueball given the shot's english/speed requirements (relative to the shaft/line of aim), and the personal preference of the shooter (shaft type, bridge length). One man's BHE is another man's pivot on the final stroke.

Wow, no one uses BHE. This is fascinating. I wonder why?

scottycoyote
04-28-2008, 06:42 PM
i primarily use bhe, but after watching some of joe tuckers youtube vids, ive started using a little fhe on some shots, and a little of both on others

cbi1000
04-28-2008, 08:31 PM
I'm not 100% sure what bhe is. Will someone explain it to me. Maybe i use it and don't know there is a name for it.

thanks,

JoeyA
04-28-2008, 10:01 PM
I'm not 100% sure what bhe is. Will someone explain it to me. Maybe i use it and don't know there is a name for it.

thanks,

http://www.onthebreaknews.com/Jewett2.htm
JoeyA

JoeyA
04-28-2008, 10:08 PM
I think because the options may not be mutually exclusive. One may use BHE on their final stroke, for example (which may force posters to choose between A and B). Also, one may set up the shot/alignment with BHE built into the alignment/stroke. Answers on this poll may very well be discerning between how people "think" about their english application; how conscious they are about squirt, swerve, applications of BHE, FHE.

At the end of the day, applications of english are about the same. For any given shot there is basically one trajectory of the cueball given the shot's english/speed requirements (relative to the shaft/line of aim), and the personal preference of the shooter (shaft type, bridge length). One man's BHE is another man's pivot on the final stroke.

Today, I was talking with one of our best Southern players about a match that he was going to play tonight, giving up the 7 and the last three for one bag of sand. During the conversation, he mentioned that he applies English on the last stroke while the cue is in motion. He also likes Water Buffalo tips that have been compressed and does not like rounded tips.

Tonight I had an Elkmaster which was compressed put on my Bender shaft and only very slightly rounded. We'll see how it performs. I compressed the tip. :eek:

JoeyA

Thunderball
04-28-2008, 10:36 PM
Ok...I'm just gonna say it.
WTF is the upside to BHE?

I get it (the function,pivot point ect) but I'm lost on the why.

Why let the english applied be dependent on the hand farthest from the ball?

FWIW I just be bangin em compared to the pros and most bangers too lol,but I just bumped the "ten times" thread to further my point.For me,that shot pushes the limits of my lefty/righty and follow....

Why would I ever use BHE for said shot?What is there to be gained as opposed to just picking my spot on the CB and stroking it out??

JoeyA
04-29-2008, 07:58 AM
Ok...I'm just gonna say it.
WTF is the upside to BHE?

I get it (the function,pivot point ect) but I'm lost on the why.

Why let the english applied be dependent on the hand farthest from the ball?

FWIW I just be bangin em compared to the pros and most bangers too lol,but I just bumped the "ten times" thread to further my point.For me,that shot pushes the limits of my lefty/righty and follow....

Why would I ever use BHE for said shot?What is there to be gained as opposed to just picking my spot on the CB and stroking it out??

Colin Colenso has a blurry cell phone video but he goes into a lot of detail about BHE here. BHE by Colin Colenso. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERFTM8dbat0)

Some people find it easier to make the object ball using Back Hand English.
It is sometimes introduced as a way of aiming and applying English which reduces or eliminates cue ball squirt. You are supposed to be able to aim at the object ball as if the cue ball is not going to squirt when using BHE.

Hope that helps.

The poll suggests numbers are interesting and hope others decide to make their method known.

JoeyA

mikepage
04-29-2008, 08:42 AM
Wow, no one uses BHE. This is fascinating. I wonder why?

Maybe because it's not going to work on so many shots?

I went to the Canadian 9-ball tour stop this weekend and got in a scotch doubles 9-ball game for 500 loonies a set--with the stipulation I had to shoot with my partner's break cue. The first thing I did was a quick check of the cue's pivot point. It was notably squirtier than my playing cue. With the unfamiliar cue, I incorporated aim&pivot more than I normally do.

James
04-29-2008, 08:47 AM
http://garotasquedizemni.ig.com.br/archives/pulp_fiction_jules.jpg

"(Backhand) English muthafu*ka! do you speak it?"

androd
04-29-2008, 09:02 AM
Ok...I'm just gonna say it.
WTF is the upside to BHE?

I get it (the function,pivot point ect) but I'm lost on the why.

Why let the english applied be dependent on the hand farthest from the ball?

FWIW I just be bangin em compared to the pros and most bangers too lol,but I just bumped the "ten times" thread to further my point.For me,that shot pushes the limits of my lefty/righty and follow....

Why would I ever use BHE for said shot?What is there to be gained as opposed to just picking my spot on the CB and stroking it out??
you can use more extreme spin while keeping the original aiming point also very handy to keep from ,( or try to) stiff banks

SpiderWebComm
04-29-2008, 09:11 AM
Maybe because it's not going to work on so many shots?

I went to the Canadian 9-ball tour stop this weekend and got in a scotch doubles 9-ball game for 500 loonies a set--with the stipulation I had to shoot with my partner's break cue. The first thing I did was a quick check of the cue's pivot point. It was notably squirtier than my playing cue. With the unfamiliar cue, I incorporated aim&pivot more than I normally do.

Mike - your point is well taken.

It's my personal opinion you progress as a player quicker with the use of BHE. It eliminates more calculation as opposed to front hand english (calculating swerve, squirt, whatever). It does work on every shot (at least in my game) - although you need to adjust in certain circumstances. I'm just saying you calculate and adjust less (regardless of the shaft, even if you're not bridging at the pivot point). People think that low deflection shafts require no adjustment- and that's not true.

Another misconception is BHE is strictly aiming to where you'd make the shot with center-ball and then pivot to your english position--- and that's not true. There are a number of techniques that pivot to CB positions from points other than center (that have nothing to do with pivot points).

As a matter of fact, I'd bet most players who use BHE as a core component to their game even KNOW the pivot point of their cue, or care for that matter.

I think I'm just saying I just think most people's definition of what bhe is and how it's used is incomplete. I'm pretty sure I pivot on 100% of my bank shots.

cookie man
04-29-2008, 09:26 AM
one lesson from ron v and I pivot on all banks also

TheOne
04-29-2008, 09:42 AM
The Queens! :)

Sorry, me bad, carry on!

:)

BRKNRUN
04-29-2008, 09:42 AM
I use #1 or #2 or #3 depending on the shot/situation...I don't see an answer for that...

MOJOE
04-29-2008, 09:46 AM
It really depends on the type of shot. I normally line up the shot with the english that I plan to use and compensate for squirt, deflection, swerve... You get the idea.

There are certain shots that I only use BHE for. That is what I started out using exclusively and it works pretty well for most shots. As long as I can make the ball with the desired english, that makes it the right way for ME. YMMV...

JBK

SpiderWebComm
04-29-2008, 09:47 AM
one lesson from ron v and I pivot on all banks also

*WINK* *WINK*

JoeyA
04-29-2008, 09:48 AM
one lesson from ron v and I pivot on all banks also

All we need to do now is get a wireless digi camera hooked up on Brian Gregg's head and then we'll know whether we should be pivoting on banks or not. :)

Wait a minute, we can just ask him because he posts on AZB. ;)

JoeyA (at least he was at the DCC)

SpiderWebComm
04-29-2008, 09:55 AM
All we need to do now is get a wireless digi camera hooked up on Brian Gregg's head and then we'll know whether we should be pivoting on banks or not. :)

Wait a minute, we can just ask him because he posts on AZB. ;)

JoeyA (at least he was at the DCC)

That guy is a machine, isn't he? I think some people were born with super-high spacial perception and some people weren't (me). Some people have unbelievable feel, and then there's me. I would caution against checking out what one guy does and say that's the way. Brian is without a DOUBT a superbly "GIFTED" player, in more ways than banking. I think if a non-player like me can pivot and pound a bunch of banks in and not worry about feel, good for little ol' me, right?
:p

av84fun
04-29-2008, 10:05 AM
Draw and follow are not forms of English, except to newbies.

That really is no longer true. Over the years, the word "english" has come to refer to any spin imparted on a pool ball.

You will find numerous such references from experts such as Bob Jewett in a rec.sports.billiards post which stated:

"English
Spin on the cue ball, especially side spin ("side" in the UK)"

He said "especially side spin" not exclusively side spin.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
04-29-2008, 10:10 AM
Colin Colenso has a blurry cell phone video but he goes into a lot of detail about BHE here. BHE by Colin Colenso. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERFTM8dbat0)

Some people find it easier to make the object ball using Back Hand English.
It is sometimes introduced as a way of aiming and applying English which reduces or eliminates cue ball squirt. You are supposed to be able to aim at the object ball as if the cue ball is not going to squirt when using BHE.

Hope that helps.

The poll suggests numbers are interesting and hope others decide to make their method known.

JoeyA

I wonder where Colin is these days. Great guy...and check out the video of this THUNDEROUS break!!!

He its 'em like a bazooka...and with an OPEN BRIDGE!

Amazing to see.

Regards,
Jim

catscradle
04-29-2008, 10:11 AM
I practice Keep It Simple Stupid and have no idea how I apply english. I don't even think about it, just get into position to shoot with the cue tip in the proper place, don't even think about squirt or deflection or anything else. For better or worse, this seems to work for me. I may be doing some unconcious allowance in my aim for the various factors, but it is very unconcious.

Patrick Johnson
04-29-2008, 10:16 AM
[using BHE]...you calculate and adjust less (regardless of the shaft, even if you're not bridging at the pivot point).

Do you mean the first part of the adjustment is made using BHE so there's less additional adjustment to make by feel? This makes some sense to me - lots of systems work by giving you a starting place from which to make smaller adjustments.

People think that low deflection shafts require no adjustment- and that's not true.

Right. Every shaft squirts with sidespin.

Another misconception is BHE is strictly aiming to where you'd make the shot with center-ball and then pivot to your english position--- and that's not true. There are a number of techniques that pivot to CB positions from points other than center (that have nothing to do with pivot points).

I'm confused by all the different things people mean by BHE. I think it's most useful as the name for "pure" BHE (pivoting at the bridge by moving the back hand only), and all the other kinds should just be described as similar to it. Trying to lump all the different techniques into that one name just makes it less meaningful.

pj
chgo

SpiderWebComm
04-29-2008, 11:01 AM
Do you mean the first part of the adjustment is made using BHE so there's less additional adjustment to make by feel? This makes some sense to me - lots of systems work by giving you a starting place from which to make smaller adjustments.



Right. Every shaft squirts with sidespin.



I'm confused by all the different things people mean by BHE. I think it's most useful as the name for "pure" BHE (pivoting at the bridge by moving the back hand only), and all the other kinds should just be described as similar to it. Trying to lump all the different techniques into that one name just makes it less meaningful.

pj
chgo

Pj, you're correct in your first quote bubble. I'm saying it provides a foundation that requires fewer mental gymnastics in figuring. Both require adjustments, it's just my opinion back hand english doesn't require as much as the traditional way. I think not many people invest the time to really learn it and find people who know the techniques well - so traditional methods are always easier to incorporate in the long-run. Most people try it, think it's weird, and never really use it in match situations.

In regards to your last comment, I don't think there is pure BHE and other BHE... there's just BHE (pivoting with the back hand). There are just more techniques than the one commonly discussed. It's like only reading the first chapter of a book and thinking you read the book.

I must say, I got really rattled when I saw you quoted my earlier post. I thought I was stepping into a head-lopping, but you were quite pleasant.

Thunderball
04-29-2008, 11:24 AM
I'm going to revisit the video links and explore this again.

But I'm in a difficult position going in because my fat headed logic is stuck in "do what??!!" mode.

If you look at the "contact time",we all see how long the cue hits the ball.How the "angle" (which is what we a talking about I think) of the stick inparts dramatically different results in that instant is...well...lost on me.

BRKNRUN
04-29-2008, 11:31 AM
Wow, no one uses BHE. This is fascinating. I wonder why?


Efren uses it...

I watched him line up square to a shot and then clearly pivot his cue with his back hand right before he shot.

It was one of those semi straight in shots into a corner pocket that you want to follow two rails out with a little side spin to change the angle out

He executed it very well.....;)

He also used BHE for a "kill shot" that he does better than anyone...

SpiderWebComm
04-29-2008, 11:41 AM
Efren uses it...

I watched him line up square to a shot and then clearly pivot his cue with his back hand right before he shot.

It was one of those semi straight in shots into a corner pocket that you want to follow two rails out with a little side spin to change the angle out

He executed it very well.....;)

He also used BHE for a "kill shot" that he does better than anyone...

I know many of the top filipinos all pivot, many americans do as well. What surprised me is how few people here on azb use it.

mikepage
04-29-2008, 11:50 AM
I know many of the top filipinos all pivot, many americans do as well. What surprised me is how few people here on azb use it.

I think the poll options as presented don't allow for what many people do: option 3 for most sidespin shots, particularly those where swerve is significant, and option 2 (BHE) for certain shots with the cueball a few feet or less from the object ball and you're hitting kinda hard.

Eruditass
04-29-2008, 12:23 PM
depends entirely on the squirt of the cue.

TheOne
04-29-2008, 12:26 PM
Colin is back in Oz, he's just had his table shipped over and set up so he seems pretty chuffed!

Think he's hoping to play some 9 ball in Oz soon

av84fun
04-29-2008, 05:00 PM
Colin is back in Oz, he's just had his table shipped over and set up so he seems pretty chuffed!

Think he's hoping to play some 9 ball in Oz soon

Thanks! Glad to hear all is well with him. Great guy. Hope he resumes posting here.

Regards,
Jim

RBLilly
04-29-2008, 05:03 PM
I use English everytime I talk..........largely due to the fact that I don't know any other language! Well I know bad words in Spanish, and I know bits and pieces of Hongul. LMAO

Patrick Johnson
04-30-2008, 06:37 AM
I must say, I got really rattled when I saw you quoted my earlier post. I thought I was stepping into a head-lopping, but you were quite pleasant.

I've switched to boxers.

pj
chgo

Joe T
04-30-2008, 07:00 AM
I fall with center ball and then use a little front hand and a little back hand most of the time.