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mullyman
04-28-2008, 11:29 PM
Ok, I was playing last night and my opponent jawed the 8 and it came out and rested a little away from the rail. The cue ball landed similar to what you see here. Now, the layout above may look straight in but it wasn't. There was enough angle that you could get that side cushion. What do you do here?

Me? Since I was having to shoot over the 9-ball I didn't want to use english for fear of curving and missing the ball. I hit it with as much follow as I could but since I was generally shooting down on the ball there wasn't much there. I opted to hit it with a lot of force hit that side rail, top rail and then come down table as much as I could and accept the tough cut on the 9. I made the 9 but shots like this irk me to no end. Is there some other way out of this or is something like this just something you have to accept and live with? When I can make a decent bridge and shoot normally I don't have a problem with this but shooting over that 9, Jesus.

BTW, the CB was close enough to the 9 that I didn't want to attempt to dig under it and draw it back. I probably would have hit the 9 with my stick.

Any other suggestions for this type of shot?
MULLY
diagram 2 is basically what I ended up with and I'm guessing on the angles it took of those rails. Just go by the general idea of it.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3HaMA2IGCc2PGSG@3HaMA2IGCc2PGSG2kGSG3kaLk3kbJp3k WCk4kDTU@

Southpaw
04-28-2008, 11:32 PM
I think a rail first shot on the 8 is the correct shot here. If you happen to miss the 8, you still leave distance for your opponent.

Southpaw

mullyman
04-28-2008, 11:37 PM
Well, I thought about rail first but I came up with 2 problems with that. First, I was shooting over the 9 with my bridge hand up on the rail, giving me even more height on it, and second, there was huge potential for a scratch in that other corner coming off of the 8. For myself I didn't think I had enough control of the ball shooting raising my cue up like that. All thoughts and opinions are welcome though. If I say anything against an opinion it's only explaining my thought processes at the time. No offense intended whatsoever. Please feel free to comment back on what I say too. I may say something that makes you go "hmmm, yeah, that's right" and vice versa. I value all input on this.
MULLY

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3HaMA2IGCc2PGSG2kGSG3kbAv3kYmh4kdfq@

Jude Rosenstock
04-28-2008, 11:41 PM
I think a rail first shot on the 8 is the correct shot here. If you happen to miss the 8, you still leave distance for your opponent.

Southpaw


I agree with this shot selection but for a different reason. I think you simply have no choice but to accept the unfortunate layout and give it your best shot. Rail first, firm, lots of follow. Going rail-first is no more difficult than shooting directly at it but it allows you to swing around the table and possibly get position. If you feel you can control your masses, you might even consider using a little left spin. Yes, you're going to get a curve but you'll also get some action off the rails. What's more, you'll narrow your rail-first angle a little.

Jude Rosenstock
04-28-2008, 11:44 PM
Well, I thought about rail first but I came up with 2 problems with that. First, I was shooting over the 9 with my bridge hand up on the rail, giving me even more height on it, and second, there was huge potential for a scratch in that other corner coming off of the 8. For myself I didn't think I had enough control of the ball shooting raising my cue up like that. All thoughts and opinions are welcome though. If I say anything against an opinion it's only explaining my thought processes at the time. No offense intended whatsoever. Please feel free to comment back on what I say too. I may say something that makes you go "hmmm, yeah, that's right" and vice versa. I value all input on this.
MULLY


I think there's a time to worry about scratching and a time to put your worries aside and just go for it. This is when you go for it. Yes, lots of bad things can happen but you want to run out and have to weigh which two shots are going to give you the best chance. I know some very good players that would just make the 8-ball and bank the 9. They bank. I don't. I'm gonna try and swing around the table.

mullyman
04-28-2008, 11:44 PM
Fair enough, but do you also agree with the huge potential for caroming off of that 8 and going straight into the other corner pocket with the CB?
MULLY

mullyman
04-28-2008, 11:46 PM
I think there's a time to worry about scratching and a time to put your worries aside and just go for it. This is when you go for it. Yes, lots of bad things can happen but you want to run out and have to weigh which two shots are going to give you the best chance. I know some very good players that would just make the 8-ball and bank the 9. They bank. I don't. I'm gonna try and swing around the table.

Well, I guess I took the lesser of the 2 evils. I mean, I did get out, I'm just wondering if there's a better, more controllable way to get on that 9.
MULLY

Jude Rosenstock
04-28-2008, 11:55 PM
Well, I guess I took the lesser of the 2 evils. I mean, I did get out, I'm just wondering if there's a better, more controllable way to get on that 9.
MULLY


Yeah, you're not going to find any good answer on this. It's just a crappy place to be. The follow you'll put on the cueball SHOULD keep you from scratching. However, you're still taking a risk since the cueball's path is going to be somewhat unpredictable.

Nice out, though. You gotta like it when you manage to escape these situations.

mullyman
04-28-2008, 11:57 PM
Yeah, you're not going to find any good answer on this. It's just a crappy place to be. The follow you'll put on the cueball SHOULD keep you from scratching. However, you're still taking a risk since the cueball's path is going to be somewhat unpredictable.

Nice out, though. You gotta like it when you manage to escape these situations.


Yeah, that's what I thought but I still had hope. hehe!
MULLY
you know, like "What would Efren do?"

Jude Rosenstock
04-29-2008, 12:02 AM
Yeah, that's what I thought but I still had hope. hehe!
MULLY
you know, like "What would Efren do?"


This is closer to what I would hope for (though this may be a bit of a pipedream)

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3HaMA2IGCc2PGSG2kGSG7kSMB3kbAq3kYui7kRTs3kAfi4kb aP2kafs1kItg@3HaMA2IGCc2PGSG2kGSG3kaLk3kbJp3kWCk4k DTU@

mullyman
04-29-2008, 12:06 AM
This is closer to what I would hope for (though this may be a bit of a pipedream)

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3HaMA2IGCc2PGSG2kGSG7kSMB3kbAq3kYui7kRTs3kAfi4kb aP2kafs1kItg@3HaMA2IGCc2PGSG2kGSG3kaLk3kbJp3kWCk4k DTU@

Yeah, you may need to borrow a stroke from Mike Massey for that one. hehehe!!!
MULLY

Jude Rosenstock
04-29-2008, 12:23 AM
Yeah, you may need to borrow a stroke from Mike Massey for that one. hehehe!!!
MULLY


Actually, this really has to do with the equipment you're using. Fast cloth and bouncy rails will get the cueball moving.

av84fun
04-29-2008, 12:33 AM
Fair enough, but do you also agree with the huge potential for caroming off of that 8 and going straight into the other corner pocket with the CB?
MULLY

From the way the shot is diagrammed I don't think it would come anywhere near scratching. (just shot it...ob struck a little past the middle diamond on the foot rail.)

You seem to have the CB departing on the tangent line of cb/ob contact but due to forward momentum and topspin it will not travel the tangent line very far and will work much further down table.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
04-29-2008, 12:35 AM
This is closer to what I would hope for (though this may be a bit of a pipedream)

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3HaMA2IGCc2PGSG2kGSG7kSMB3kbAq3kYui7kRTs3kAfi4kb aP2kafs1kItg@3HaMA2IGCc2PGSG2kGSG3kaLk3kbJp3kWCk4k DTU@

No pipe dream re: hitting the middle of the foot rail. That's where the cb goes...but you'd have to pound it fairly hard...jacked up not being helpful...to get the CB to travel that far.

But rail first is the only reasonable shot.

Regards,
Jim

mullyman
04-29-2008, 12:48 AM
From the way the shot is diagrammed I don't think it would come anywhere near scratching. (just shot it...ob struck a little past the middle diamond on the foot rail.)

You seem to have the CB departing on the tangent line of cb/ob contact but due to forward momentum and topspin it will not travel the tangent line very far and will work much further down table.

Regards,
Jim


From the way it's diagrammed that scratch is huge. You're shooting down on the ball from up on top of the rail. Any follow you get on that is going to be minimal. I'll set it up tonight and check though to make sure. My first opinion on it is that the scratch is definitely something to look out for. Coming off that side rail into that contact point puts you right in line with that corner.

If the 9 weren't there and you could make a bridge and put sufficient mustard on the ball, yeah, it's there all the way.
MULLY
of course if you could make a bridge one rail with low right does the job and going forward would be silly

RiverCity
04-29-2008, 02:12 AM
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3HaMB2IGCc2PGSG3caMB3cakl1cbqB1cQWl1cQWl2kGSG3kW Ck3kXpN@3HaMA2IGCc2PGSG2kGSG3kaLk3kbJp3kWCk4kDTU@
What about playing a safety?
This is a one hole kick shot, that would serve this situation well.
Chuck

ShootingArts
04-29-2008, 06:10 AM
I agree with the rail first kick shot. First, I would hit rail first just to make the eight. Many old varmints including me consider it the easier way to make the eight. With a Closed bridge off the rail I can put considerable follow on the ball and the scratch in the far corner isn't a consideration. Some gamble trying to get back to the nine but I usually do a pretty good job of it.

Efren would add a touch of inside to the follow and come back one or two rails dead on the nine but I ain't Efren by a long shot. :)

We have had some talk about the old cloth and Simonis lately. I stopped at a little pub to test some modifications I made to my shaft while I was waiting for another one to dry.(dangerous but I get bored easily!) I don't know what the cloth is there but it feels like scotchbrite under my hand. After playing exclusively on Simonis awhile, dang was I bad! Table length shots on a seven footer were a ball off. Even after adjusting I wasn't making much consistently using english. So anything I say concerning this shot does assume fast cloth.

Hu

3andstop
04-29-2008, 06:36 AM
Mully, don't ya know a simple 5 railer when ya see one? :D

mullyman
04-29-2008, 07:57 AM
Mully, don't ya know a simple 5 railer when ya see one? :D

Of course I do. But if I had done that then I'd never get a game. Gotta hide the talent sometimes, ya know!?!:D
MULLY

Jude Rosenstock
04-29-2008, 08:04 AM
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3HaMB2IGCc2PGSG3caMB3cakl1cbqB1cQWl1cQWl2kGSG3kW Ck3kXpN@3HaMA2IGCc2PGSG2kGSG3kaLk3kbJp3kWCk4kDTU@
What about playing a safety?
This is a one hole kick shot, that would serve this situation well.
Chuck


With all due respect, if we were playing 1-hole, this shot might have merit. However, since it's 9-ball, I just don't see the risk outweighing the reward. Getting out from here actually appears to be a more likely occurance than successfully playing this safety. I could be wrong.

Southpaw
04-29-2008, 08:08 AM
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3HaMB2IGCc2PGSG3caMB3cakl1cbqB1cQWl1cQWl2kGSG3kW Ck3kXpN@3HaMA2IGCc2PGSG2kGSG3kaLk3kbJp3kWCk4kDTU@
What about playing a safety?
This is a one hole kick shot, that would serve this situation well.
Chuck

I think its too difficult to play this safety jacked up and control both balls. Plus if you hit it poorly, you put the 8 and 9 closer together making it easier for your opponent. The rail first shot it tough as well, but if the safety is just as difficult as the shot, I take the shot and give myself a chance to win. JMO.

Southpaw

mullyman
04-29-2008, 08:12 AM
With all due respect, if we were playing 1-hole, this shot might have merit. However, since it's 9-ball, I just don't see the risk outweighing the reward. Getting out from here actually appears to be a more likely occurance than successfully playing this safety. I could be wrong.

I agree with this. I don't mind playing safe but with only 2 balls on the table I'm not going to push that 8 down near the 9. Jacked up like that I don't want to promise myself that the 8 isn't going to fall short and end up in front of that pocket.
MULLY

RiverCity
04-30-2008, 02:55 AM
To each his own. I know for me, the safe is a much higher percentage shot, giving a better chance for the win.
I could get out from there maybe 3-4 times out of 10. Out of those 3 to 4 times, I may get a GOOD shot on the 9 where I didnt have to sweat the money ball, I may not, and then have to look for a bank or thin cut. On the other hand I can hit the safe 6+ times out of 10, and like my chances of the opponent not getting out from the 8 ball and the cue ball on opposite end rails.
Chuck

Patrick Johnson
04-30-2008, 06:15 AM
...do you also agree with the huge potential for caroming off of that 8 and going straight into the other corner pocket with the CB?

No. It's virtually impossible - you'd have to be able to stun the cue ball to do that, and you don't even have that option shooting over the 9.

pj
chgo

Andrew Manning
04-30-2008, 06:44 AM
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3HaMB2IGCc2PGSG3caMB3cakl1cbqB1cQWl1cQWl2kGSG3kW Ck3kXpN@3HaMA2IGCc2PGSG2kGSG3kaLk3kbJp3kWCk4kDTU@
What about playing a safety?
This is a one hole kick shot, that would serve this situation well.
Chuck

In what way is that safe? In the "you're leaving a decent shot on the 8 with doable position on the 9" sense of the word safe? I think you're far better off going for even an extremely difficult out than leaving that shot for a decent player.

-Andrew

RiverCity
05-01-2008, 02:39 AM
In what way is that safe? In the "you're leaving a decent shot on the 8 with doable position on the 9" sense of the word safe? I think you're far better off going for even an extremely difficult out than leaving that shot for a decent player.

-Andrew
The original way of getting out, is filled with bad possibilities. I would love to see someone make that consistently without practicing it first multiple times. Jacked up over the 9, shooting a table length rail first shot with side spin..... not conducive to a consistent make.
In the safety shot that I posted..... again, I would love to see someone make it with shape on the 9 consistently.
People tend to overestimate their abilities, or what is in the realm of likelihood. The odds on original shot suck. The odds for the opponent pocketing the 8 where I left it suck. If someone pulls off a hail mary, so be it.
I wont pull the trigger on something I know is foolhardy, when there is a relatively easy safe to be had, that gives a good shot at getting back to the table.
Chuck

mullyman
05-01-2008, 02:51 AM
I wouldn't call that an "easy safety" by any means. Same things apply. You're shooting over a ball the length of the table and then you're saying that your speed and accuracy is so good under those conditions that you're definitely going to hit that 8 full on, kill the cue ball, and not come up a little short or a little long and leave a straight in shot or a cut? I'm not saying the safety is a bad shot, all I'm saying is that that safety is about as 100% as any other prospect people have been throwing out.

And the original way of getting out, the way I posted and the way I did it, was a direct hit on the 8-ball and forcing it 2 cushions. Also not the easiest thing in the world. I got out with a really thin cut on the 9 but I wasn't too thrilled about having to shoot it.
MULLY

memikey
05-01-2008, 03:20 AM
IMHO.....If given 100 attempts at that rail first shot on the 8 on equipment in reasonably good condition I'd estimate that a competent player would make the 8 a minimum of 80 times, make contact with at least two rails after the pot at least 70 of those 80 times, make contact with 3 rails at least half of those 70 times and scratch in the opposite corner that the original poster is worried about no more than an absolute maximum of 5 times. Jacked up I think its actually quite difficult to make the 8 rail first and scratch in the corner even if you tried.......a scratch in the side after coming round the angles may even be a more likely scratch than in the corner.

The rail first shot with as smooth a stroke as you can muster jacked up seems to be the percentage shot and is obviously easier the better the condition of the balls/cloth.

Note.......if you play the rail first shot on such a bad angle that you hit the short rail jaw with the 8 and fail to make it there is then a higher chance of a scratch in the corner.

PS, forgot to mention......................I don't think there's any absolute need for side on the rail first shot.

mullyman
05-01-2008, 03:31 AM
I haven't been to the pool hall since I put this up but yeah, I'm going to try all the suggestions here. Even the safety. Either way you do it though I think it's going to be a tough out. I don't see getting 3 cushions after contacting the 8 and falling on the far side of the 9. I could be wrong though. Will give it a shot.
MULLY
will take 10 tries on each shot and see what happens

and thanks to everyone that has tossed an opinion in the ring

Andrew Manning
05-01-2008, 06:31 AM
The original way of getting out, is filled with bad possibilities. I would love to see someone make that consistently without practicing it first multiple times. Jacked up over the 9, shooting a table length rail first shot with side spin..... not conducive to a consistent make.

I agree with you here.


In the safety shot that I posted..... again, I would love to see someone make it with shape on the 9 consistently.
People tend to overestimate their abilities, or what is in the realm of likelihood.

I guess I may be guilty of overestimating my abilities, but I think a B player should get out from the safety you diagrammed over half the time. The position is natural, all you have to do is make the 8. It's a tough shot, but I don't think it's less than 50/50 for a decent player.

-Andrew

mullyman
05-01-2008, 06:42 AM
I guess I may be guilty of overestimating my abilities, but I think a B player should get out from the safety you diagrammed over half the time. The position is natural, all you have to do is make the 8. It's a tough shot, but I don't think it's less than 50/50 for a decent player.

-Andrew

Yeah, looking at the layout, after the safety, diagram I felt that I was favored to get out from there. The only thing to be careful for is that scratch in the upper corner. Hitting it so thin against the rail like that is perfect for going up and down the table again for shape on the 9. I don't specifically practice going up and down the table but I do practice that thin cut along the rail from up table all the time.

Jude gave the answer I agree with the most though:
Yeah, you're not going to find any good answer on this. It's just a crappy place to be. The follow you'll put on the cueball SHOULD keep you from scratching. However, you're still taking a risk since the cueball's path is going to be somewhat unpredictable.

MULLY
but hey, my original question asked for all opinions so I should at least thank everyone that got involved in this. I'm not against any of the opinions that have been given. Just stating my point of view on them.

Thunderball
05-01-2008, 06:52 AM
My simple thought (before reading all the replies) was rail in with some left of the ball.

But..I blow this kinda shot quite a bit,gonna go give it try a few times and report back in a few.

I love these diagram quizes....always learnin sumtin.

Thunderball
05-01-2008, 07:20 AM
No pipe dream re: hitting the middle of the foot rail. That's where the cb goes...but you'd have to pound it fairly hard...jacked up not being helpful...to get the CB to travel that far.

But rail first is the only reasonable shot.

Regards,
Jim

I just gave it a good honest ten of so goes with half a tip of left or so,rail first.What av84 says is spot on.

I did however find myself coming up short,as in a damn awkward shot left on the nine,but I was on the right end of the table lol.

Out of those ten shots I made most eights,nailed the shot leaving a relatively easy nine just once though (see the diagram).Heck, once I managed to hit the bottom rail and come right up for nine with only the bottom rail hit after the 8 lol....that one I have no idea wtf happened...but it looked sweet.

Also,per my very short and fast look at this shot,some left and rail first aint gonna scratch in the oppisite corner.
But getting square enough on the nine was a bear for me.

mullyman
05-01-2008, 07:56 AM
Ok, so it's been taken to a table and tried. So, your final answer is that even though rail first seems the best way you still end up tough on the 9 more often than not?
MULLY

Thunderball
05-01-2008, 08:15 AM
So, your final answer is that even though rail first seems the best way you still end up tough on the 9 more often than not?

Well,yes that's the case...but I was dead cold.Just went to the table and did this for a few minutes.I haven't hit a ball in two days otherwise.

Also...and most importantly ...see my sig lol.

Seriously,with a little more stroke it gets there....even I did it once(not counting the one that shot off the bottom rail).I did find it helpful to not "jack up" and just hit what little cue ball I could see with the cue as level as possible.

Mully,I suspect you will get to the nine more often then not imo.Post back when you get back to a table...I'm truely curious as to how you will see this shot after this thread.

Best of luck,(and great thread)
TBall

mullyman
05-01-2008, 08:18 AM
Yeah, I'll give it a go tomorrow night. Being Friday and all I'll be going to the pool room. Glad you gave it a shot and reported back though.
MULLY

mullyman
05-02-2008, 12:37 PM
Ok, I set her up and found that you guys were 100% correct in that going rail first was the best option. I didn't count how many times I tried it, probably a dozen or so, and found that the biggest problem was just making the 8, which wasn't that much of a problem. I jawed the pocket 2 or 3 times. I got decent position on the 9 all but 2 times but it seemed as if I hit the 8 a little fuller than I wanted to, which took some of the forward momentum off of the cue ball. When it hit well though getting around to the 9 wasn't a problem. I'd say it was about 80% in favor of getting a good shot on the 9. The scratch wasn't even there......neither is that safety. Sorry, but with Cuetable you can diagram anything you want. With the way this shot is set up there ain't no way you're hitting that 8 ball full enough to kill the cue ball up there.

Anyway, my test of this shot was done on a Brunswick Metro with Simonis 760 cloth and Brunswick Centennial balls.

If this shot comes up again during a game I will definitely look at rail first as my first option.

Thank you to everyone involved and thanks to the people that took it to the table and gave it a shot.
MULLY

rikdee
05-02-2008, 01:22 PM
Agree. a nice clean and accurate hit off the rail will not scratch. The cueball, struck with appropriate speed, will have picked up sufficient overspin during its trip to the eight to cause it to take the path as drawn by Jude.

_Rick

BRKNRUN
05-02-2008, 02:24 PM
Hmmm...I did not see any suggestion of just pocketing the 8 and playing the bank on the 9 to the same pocket.

Seems like being jacked up and juicing the CB like that could lead to a jarred 8 and or very unpredictable shape on the 9-ball.

He said you could get to a rail in the OP...so how about just a smooth follow two rails out and take your chances on banking the 9-ball.

You have been practicing your banks for when you need them havenet you????? ;)

mullyman
05-02-2008, 07:06 PM
Well, the bank is an option. But from what I saw last night I think the rail first is higher percentage. You can jaw that bank just as easily as jawing the rail first shot. The bank is there though. I actually like that bank too....but I think I'd stick with the rail first shot. hehe!!
MULLY

Roadkill
05-02-2008, 08:23 PM
If you want an honest opinion. Try spending more time on your game and less time on these table diagrams.

mullyman
05-02-2008, 08:32 PM
If you want an honest opinion. Try spending more time on your game and less time on these table diagrams.


The diagram was showing something that came up in an actual game. Am I supposed to stay away from the diagram and just describe the shot?
MULLY

Roadkill
05-02-2008, 08:43 PM
The diagram was showing something that came up in an actual game. Am I supposed to stay away from the diagram and just describe the shot?
MULLY

No. Have you ever noticed that most of the best pool players in the World don't bother posting in this forum. Have you ever wondered why?

Answer: They are too busy being the best pool players in the World.

mullyman
05-02-2008, 09:02 PM
No. Have you ever noticed that most of the best pool players in the World don't bother posting in this forum. Have you ever wondered why?

Answer: They are too busy being the best pool players in the World.


Haha! Well, for what it's worth, I never claimed to be one of the best players in the world and I don't aspire to be one of the best players in the world. I play well enough to enjoy the game and when something like this comes up it's nice having a place like this to ask for ideas.
MULLY
I'm not the only one posting here today