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jed1894
04-29-2008, 06:38 PM
I tried to do a search on this thread but it kept coming up with no results.

Been hearing a lot these days about the larger pins, and how good they are. What exactly, other than the obvious, is the differencel (in feel)? Any custom cue makers switching to the fatter pins? I know that Shurtz have swithed. I have noticed that my McDermott with a 3/8 - 10 pin does feel different, but I'm not so sure that's a good thing or not. The tip is a Triangle so I'm not sure what I'm feeling.

Any thoughts....or is just another preference thing?

JED

worriedbeef
04-29-2008, 06:55 PM
i like the wood to wood 3/8 10 pin. feels extremely solid and somehow a touch more natural than the metal quick release joints.

yally
04-29-2008, 07:02 PM
I've moved from stainles steel joints to wood to wood 3/8x10 exclusively. More lively feel.

cajunbarboxplyr
04-29-2008, 07:02 PM
My McDermott has a 3/8x10 pin....... it was my first experince with it..I loved it............my Tice has a 3/8x10 as well...... the flat face......wood-2-wood....great feel in the hit......I myself can not stand a steel joint whatsover!! Im sure there are some steel jointed cues out there that has a remarkable hit but Ive yet to try one I liked...including schon, joss, etc...

jed1894
04-29-2008, 08:33 PM
Okay, but what about a 5/16 or other pin that connects wood-to-wood? Wouldn't that be the same? Seems that once the two pieces are connected wood-to-wood the pin would a non-issue. Or, am I missing something? Is the 3/8 pin the only that truly connects wood to wood?

JED

jed1894
04-29-2008, 08:43 PM
Okay, but what about a 5/16 or other pin that connects wood-to-wood? Wouldn't that be the same? Seems that once the two pieces are connected wood-to-wood the pin would a non-issue. Or, am I missing something? Is the 3/8 pin the only that truly connects wood to wood?

JED

Sorry about the ignorant post. I understand that 3/8 pins are mounted differently without a brass insert. But in any event, it seems that once they're connected the wood touches.....???

ShootingArts
04-29-2008, 10:44 PM
Sorry about the ignorant post. I understand that 3/8 pins are mounted differently without a brass insert. But in any event, it seems that once they're connected the wood touches.....???

JED,

I don't really know why but the cue does seem to transmit feel better with a big nonmetallic pin. I like the 3/8" G-10 and am considering having some 7/16" pins CNC'ed out of G-10 or G-11.

Hu

CB,CornerPockeT
04-30-2008, 01:06 AM
Along these lines, I was wondering exactly what part of the joint flat-faced is referring to? Just trying to understand what makes one flat faced and one not.

Double-Dave
04-30-2008, 01:25 AM
Along these lines, I was wondering exactly what part of the joint flat-faced is referring to? Just trying to understand what makes one flat faced and one not.

One some cues there is a little piece of metal/wood sticking out of the shaft,
the butt of the cue will have a hole around the pin to accomodate this piece of metal.
That would be a piloted joint.

If the shaft does not have anything sticking out (making it flat) and the butt does not have the hole then it is flat-faced.

gr. Dave

Fast Lenny
04-30-2008, 01:32 AM
I do like the wood to wood jointed cue with a big pin for 9 ball and some games but prefer a SS jointed cue for straights and actually one hole too.I played with a guys Falcon a week ago fitted with a predator shaft,it was SS joint and the cue played great.Shane in an interview i saw is playing with a Diveney i believe with an SS joint because its what he is used to.I just think its all about preference,to me whether a cue is a player or not comes from the shaft and tip,not saying the joint doesnt have an effect but dont think it will make a cue play like a dog. :cool:

BlowFish
04-30-2008, 01:46 AM
So far, my prefered pin is a G10 3/8x10. I would think that a G10 with any big pin (3/8) and threads 8, 9, 10 or 11 will still hit the same.

Bill the Cat
04-30-2008, 08:29 AM
IMHO, I really think it's all in your head. There are so many other aspects to a cue that influence the hit (wood choice, shaft taper, tip, ferrule, stainless vs. phenolic joint, etc.) that the joint pin is of little consequence. The joint pin's purpose is to hold the cue together. I would challange anyone to hit with two similar cues that have different joint pins and tell me which is which.

JoeyInCali
04-30-2008, 08:32 AM
JED,

I don't really know why but the cue does seem to transmit feel better with a big nonmetallic pin. I like the 3/8" G-10 and am considering having some 7/16" pins CNC'ed out of G-10 or G-11.

Hu
They'd make for great A-joint screw I think.
Great wood adhesion and much less chance of ratteling compared to 3/8 ss.

jed1894
04-30-2008, 08:48 AM
IMHO, I really think it's all in your head. There are so many other aspects to a cue that influence the hit (wood choice, shaft taper, tip, ferrule, stainless vs. phenolic joint, etc.) that the joint pin is of little consequence. The joint pin's purpose is to hold the cue together. I would challange anyone to hit with two similar cues that have different joint pins and tell me which is which.


This what I thought too. I think I'll try the experiment on some friends.

JED

stikapos
04-30-2008, 09:42 AM
I've recently had a ss 3/8x10 pin replaced with a g10 by Varney. Very nice job, btw. I have to agree w/ Joey in Cali, the improved adhesion got rid of the buzz in the joint. I think it hits better than it did before. Also, the shaft joint hole was drilled, filled (coco) and retapped. What a difference there! No more loose pin! Practically, who knows what the impact of the pin is (other than balance) as I'm thinking that there aren't many who would build two cues exactly the same to test with different pins.

tim

joeboxer
04-30-2008, 09:53 AM
I've recently had a ss 3/8x10 pin replaced with a g10 by Varney. Very nice job, btw. I have to agree w/ Joey in Cali, the improved adhesion got rid of the buzz in the joint. I think it hits better than it did before. Also, the shaft joint hole was drilled, filled (coco) and retapped. What a difference there! No more loose pin! Practically, who knows what the impact of the pin is (other than balance) as I'm thinking that there aren't many who would build two cues exactly the same to test with different pins.

tim

Joey was talking about the A-joint, which is where the forearm is connected to the handle of the cue.
But i agree the G10 makes for a nice main joint pin also.

td873
04-30-2008, 11:07 AM
Along these lines, I was wondering exactly what part of the joint flat-faced is referring to? Just trying to understand what makes one flat faced and one not.
Many cue makers built 5/16X14 piloted joints with just a brass insert or a bit of wood sticking out, i.e., the pilot. These are not flat faced, since the face of the joint has a pilot (on the shaft) and a recess (on the butt)


On this shaft, the pilot is rounded, but there isn't alot of brass showing (but there is some wood showing)
http://td873.enteronline.net/Pins/Pin2_.jpg

On this shaft, more brass showing (but there is still some wood showing)
http://td873.enteronline.net/Pins/Pin4.jpg

On this shaft, there is almost NO wood showing, and only the pilot is showing
http://td873.enteronline.net/Pins/Pin1.jpg

A piloted joint:
http://td873.enteronline.net/Pins/Pin3_.jpg

Just the butt
http://td873.enteronline.net/Pins/pin5.jpg


Here are some examples of some different joints:

An example of radial flat faced joint:
http://td873.enteronline.net/Pins/radial_pin.jpg

http://td873.enteronline.net/Pins/radial_flat.jpg


An example of 5/16X14 flat faced joint:
http://td873.enteronline.net/Pins/5_16_14_flat.jpg

An example of 3/8X10 flat faced joint:
http://td873.enteronline.net/Pins/3_10_butt.jpg

http://td873.enteronline.net/Pins/3_8_10.jpg

-td

jed1894
04-30-2008, 05:33 PM
I guess it's preference at best. If not, then all custom cue makers (and some factory) would make their cues 3/8 - 10 pin.

JEd

Roadkill
04-30-2008, 05:56 PM
If you really want a flat-faced joint (which is inferior to piloted), I would probably go with a brass 3/8-11.

But don't over analyze and remember; it's not the size of the ship (pin in this case) but the motion of the ocean. In my opinion, you'd be better off playing with a house cue than many of the available low-cost production cues.

jed1894
04-30-2008, 05:58 PM
If you really want a flat-faced joint (which is inferior to piloted), I would probably go with a brass 3/8-11.

But don't over analyze and remember; it's not the size of the ship (pin in this case) but the motion of the ocean. In my opinion, you'd be better off playing with a house cue than many of the available low-cost production cues.

I agree....

td873
04-30-2008, 06:14 PM
If you really want a flat-faced joint (which is inferior to piloted), I would probably go with a brass 3/8-11.
Why is flat-faced inferior?

-td

Roadkill
04-30-2008, 06:16 PM
Why is flat-faced inferior?

-td

They are inferior in terms of mechanical strength.

pixies2
04-30-2008, 11:18 PM
some great info in this thread..can someone tell what is the size difference between 3/8 and radial? is radial a bigger pin?

JoeyInCali
04-30-2008, 11:49 PM
Joey was talking about the A-joint, which is where the forearm is connected to the handle of the cue.
But i agree the G10 makes for a nice main joint pin also.
Any heavy metal on cues really is a potential buzz source.
G10 being more flexible, lighter and better gluing properties is very unlikely to cause a buzz imo.

JoeyInCali
04-30-2008, 11:50 PM
some great info in this thread..can someone tell what is the size difference between 3/8 and radial? is radial a bigger pin?
Radial IS 3/8. Just different thread configuration. It has 7.5 rounded threads instead of 10 v-shaped on regular 3/8 10.

jed1894
05-01-2008, 07:02 AM
They are inferior in terms of mechanical strength.

Very interestering and educational. However, wouldn't a fatter pin be prone to cracking the wood the pin since there's not as much wood surrounding a 3/8 pin unlike the smaller pins that are protected by brass inserts? Also, as far as strength, wouldn't all be about the same if they're tight? Just wondering.

JED

td873
05-01-2008, 08:24 AM
They are inferior in terms of mechanical strength.
Please explain for the class.

I'm sure lots of current and future readers (if they figure out how to use the search functoin) will appreciate it.

;)

-td

NaturalEnglish
05-01-2008, 09:02 AM
Wouldnt the best be NO pin or joint? OK..then the closest to NO joint pin would be a similar connecting material as the 2 pieces you are connecting. ie a wood pin. Why dont cue makers use a hard wood as a pin? Yea I guess it would be more fragile and you have to take care of it...but wouldnt the resultant connection be closer to a 1 piece cue? Enquiring minds wanna know. My shaft does not have any metal in the threads...only a wood female thread. It seems to be holding up fine. Why not a wood male pin? Seems you would want the most homogeneous connection possible. Wood would be the material of choice to achieve that goal.

socks
05-01-2008, 03:15 PM
Wouldnt the best be NO pin or joint? OK..then the closest to NO joint pin would be a similar connecting material as the 2 pieces you are connecting. ie a wood pin. Why dont cue makers use a hard wood as a pin? Yea I guess it would be more fragile and you have to take care of it...but wouldnt the resultant connection be closer to a 1 piece cue? Enquiring minds wanna know. My shaft does not have any metal in the threads...only a wood female thread. It seems to be holding up fine. Why not a wood male pin? Seems you would want the most homogeneous connection possible. Wood would be the material of choice to achieve that goal.

this is how the deano cues are, there are a few for sale over in the wanted/for sale section.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=97305
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=96937

AnitoKid
09-17-2008, 02:02 AM
I'd love to know more.
Much thanks for any info, friends.

AnitoKid

.

Please explain for the class.

I'm sure lots of current and future readers (if they figure out how to use the search functoin) will appreciate it.

;)

-td

Suaro
09-17-2008, 04:53 AM
TD873 - thanks for the clarification. Pictures were worth a thousand words :)

billyjack
09-17-2008, 04:55 AM
IMHO, I really think it's all in your head. There are so many other aspects to a cue that influence the hit (wood choice, shaft taper, tip, ferrule, stainless vs. phenolic joint, etc.) that the joint pin is of little consequence. The joint pin's purpose is to hold the cue together. I would challange anyone to hit with two similar cues that have different joint pins and tell me which is which.
As a relative newby, I agree. Every component from your backhand forward affects the hit IMO. For the last two years I've been playing with McDermotts, both Cocobolo and Maple, with phenolic collars. Recently I acquired a mostly Maple Joss with stainless collar, 5/16 piloted. The harder. stiffer hit I was anticipating never materialized. Blindfolded, I probably couldn't tell which was which. There was probably more noticeable difference between Maple and Coco McD's than between a Coco McD and a Maple Joss.
Bill

morinj29
09-17-2008, 05:00 AM
Okay, but what about a 5/16 or other pin that connects wood-to-wood? Wouldn't that be the same? Seems that once the two pieces are connected wood-to-wood the pin would a non-issue. Or, am I missing something? Is the 3/8 pin the only that truly connects wood to wood?

JED

Most 5/16 pins are piloted and have a brass insert to stregthen them. 3/8 10/11 or radial all are stronger joints IMHO and the hit is closer to a one piece cue. I am not a fan of stainless steel joints but if I was to choose a SS jointed cue I would choose a schon....hits really firm and is closest to flat face wood to wood joint.....as far as the pin possibly damaging the wood, use a phenolic insert...joint will come together tighter and it last longer.....just my 2 cents...

morinj29
09-17-2008, 05:06 AM
this is how the deano cues are, there are a few for sale over in the wanted/for sale section.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=97305
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=96937

those deano cues hit solid....very firm hit and can have a shaft made to play snooker or 3 cushion each which require a really stiff hit

LSU1018
09-17-2008, 05:12 AM
I just bought a Jensen Wood to Wood with a 3/8 11 Brass pin. It has a great feel and hit.

PROG8R
09-17-2008, 06:16 AM
Please explain for the class.

I'm sure lots of current and future readers (if they figure out how to use the search functoin) will appreciate it.

;)

-td

Well, I am not a cue maker, but whenever you are building let?s say structures. If you use a tongue and groove or duck tail or biscuits, etc... It is a lot stronger than just screwing it to the opposing surface. In the case of a piloted cue not only is it joined, it is also screwed. How strong is strong enough. I don?t think I have ever seen a flat faced cue break at the joint if tossed into a wall or across a table. It usually holds together fairly well and breaks at another spot.

ShootingArts
09-17-2008, 07:04 AM
Well, I am not a cue maker, but whenever you are building let?s say structures. If you use a tongue and groove or duck tail or biscuits, etc... It is a lot stronger than just screwing it to the opposing surface. In the case of a piloted cue not only is it joined, it is also screwed. How strong is strong enough. I don?t think I have ever seen a flat faced cue break at the joint if tossed into a wall or across a table. It usually holds together fairly well and breaks at another spot.

A flat faced joint is stronger than a piloted joint in the direction that is most important, along the length of a cue. The bigger the pilot, usually the less actual contact area on the plane perpendicular to the impact created by hitting the cue ball. However, there is another issue. Typical threads are not meant to locate anything radially. Since there is almost always some side force on a joint when the cue ball is hit there seems to be some advantage to either a small pilot or one of the different types of threads that can be used to locate something radially. Acme threads, radial threads or a special modification of "standard" threads that someone uses that gives them a flat top.

Hu