PDA

View Full Version : Arizona Tournament Ideas?!?!?


stuckart
04-30-2008, 01:48 PM
First off, I'd like to state that this is not the thread to get into a Pro vs. Con argument about the AZ Rating's and/or Committee.

I would like to know from the Higher Rated players, or the ones that are against the Arizona Ratings, there opinion on what one establishment could put together as a weekly/biweekly tourney that would satisfy everyone. When I say everyone I mean, The 10's, The Bar, The 6's and 7's and everyone in between. Also, which night(s) of the week could we maximize the draw of persons every week.

To Satisfy the 10's, I imagine larger payouts and harder ways for 6's and 7's to get lucky on them would work. Anything else?

To Satisfy the 6's and 7's, the trade off of cheaper entry to play better players.

For the Bar, Get 20-30 players in every tourney, make some money through either quarters or food/beverage.

The bar would add some money depending on how we do it.

FYI, this would be for "The Sets" in Tempe on Southern and Mill Ave. They have 14 bar boxes and 4 gold crowns. I run the pool operations over there now and want to see what we can do to make more people happy.

I have a few ideas, but I want to see what you guys come up with first. Remember let's make it fun and fair for EVERYONE!

MikeJanis
04-30-2008, 01:57 PM
First off, I'd like to state that this is not the thread to get into a Pro vs. Con argument about the AZ Rating's and/or Committee.

I would like to know from the Higher Rated players, or the ones that are against the Arizona Ratings, there opinion on what one establishment could put together as a weekly/biweekly tourney that would satisfy everyone. When I say everyone I mean, The 10's, The Bar, The 6's and 7's and everyone in between. Also, which night(s) of the week could we maximize the draw of persons every week.

To Satisfy the 10's, I imagine larger payouts and harder ways for 6's and 7's to get lucky on them would work. Anything else?

To Satisfy the 6's and 7's, the trade off of cheaper entry to play better players.

For the Bar, Get 20-30 players in every tourney, make some money through either quarters or food/beverage.

The bar would add some money depending on how we do it.

FYI, this would be for "The Sets" in Tempe on Southern and Mill Ave. They have 14 bar boxes and 4 gold crowns. I run the pool operations over there now and want to see what we can do to make more people happy.

I have a few ideas, but I want to see what you guys come up with first. Remember let's make it fun and fair for EVERYONE!


A: Get rid of the rating system all together.
B: Hold regional Tour Events for both Open and Amateur Players.
C: JUST DO IT !

Mj

stuckart
04-30-2008, 02:11 PM
Not helpful....

Stewscue
04-30-2008, 02:26 PM
In Sacramento CA they offset the entry fee




5's and 6's pay 5.00 entry fee
7's and 8's pay 6.00
9's pays 7.00
10's pay 10.00
10-1's pay 12.00
10-2's pay 15.00




Something like that
It was always a race to 4 single elm because they had some many players

Thanks

BRKNRUN
04-30-2008, 02:59 PM
I think you know my thoughts on this...I think you said they used to do something similar in WI.

Since you already have a laptop...(liquid proof from what I hear)...You could easily track the prior event results and do a adjustable A B C graduated entry fee. I talked to Kristi about doing this at Alexanders before they announced the closure...

Basically you pay a higher or lower entry fee based on your prior entry performance... If you win you get bumped up to the A level (do not pass go do not collect $200)...If you cash you get bumped 1 level...If you continually don't cash...you drop a level.....I think we evern discussed in the event of the bar adding a set amount per player that if you have certain players that NEVER cash...eventually they will be able to play in the event for free...(but the house still adds the added money per player)...The tournament "players" win due to more added money...The house wins because the complete bangers that have no chance of cashing can enter a FREE tournament...(until they cash they get a free learning experience)

No ratings to worry about.
No loss of players to worry about (due to getting raised)
No worry if a road player wants to come in and take a crack at stealing the money.

I think everyone I spoke with about this thought the system was fair and Kristi and I discussed doing a double column weekly spreadsheet that shows the prior entry paid and prior finish results...A player could techically not play for 3 months and you could do a quick "find" in excel and see when they last played what they paid and how they finished.

I even asked other "A" level players (or players that I expect would cash) if they had a problem paying a $15 entry against a C rated player that only has to pay a $5 entry...(but both players race to 4)...no one seemed to have a problem with that.

I did not ask any players that (I thought) would have NO chance of cashing if they would be willing to play in a FREE entry tournament if they new they were going to have to possibly play Scott Frost straight up in a race to 4

I would ask CocoBoy...but I suspect he would have some excuse like too much Go Go juice to get there....or some other goofy response....I would suggest descretly taking a poll from some of the people you thing would have little to no chance of cashing if they would attend...

I can give you this bangers reply of yes I would play......but I might be just above qualifying level of a banger....:rolleyes: ;)

The only real challenge that was brought up was the "how do you advertise it"

BVal
04-30-2008, 03:04 PM
I think you know my thoughts on this...I think you said they used to do something similar in WI.

Since you already have a laptop...(liquid proof from what I hear)...You could easily track the prior event results and do a adjustable A B C graduated entry fee. I talked to Kristi about doing this at Alexanders before they announced the closure...

Basically you pay a higher or lower entry fee based on your prior entry performance... If you win you get bumped up to the A level (do not pass go do not collect $200)...If you cash you get bumped 1 level...If you continually don't cash...you drop a level.....I think we evern discussed in the event of the bar adding a set amount per player that if you have certain players that NEVER cash...eventually they will be able to play in the event for free...(but the house still adds the added money per player)...The tournament "players" win due to more added money...The house wins because the complete bangers that have no chance of cashing can enter a FREE tournament...(until they cash they get a free learning experience)

No ratings to worry about.
No loss of players to worry about (due to getting raised)
No worry if a road player wants to come in and take a crack at stealing the money.

I think everyone I spoke with about this thought the system was fair and Kristi and I discussed doing a double column weekly spreadsheet that shows the prior entry paid and prior finish results...A player could techically not play for 3 months and you could do a quick "find" in excel and see when they last played what they paid and how they finished.

I even asked other "A" level players (or players that I expect would cash) if they had a problem paying a $15 entry against a C rated player that only has to pay a $5 entry...(but both players race to 4)...no one seemed to have a problem with that.

I did not ask any players that (I thought) would have NO chance of cashing if they would be willing to play in a FREE entry tournament if they new they were going to have to possibly play Scott Frost straight up in a race to 4

I would ask CocoBoy...but I suspect he would have some excuse like too much Go Go juice to get there....or some other goofy response....I would suggest descretly taking a poll from some of the people you thing would have little to no chance of cashing if they would attend...

I can give you this bangers reply of yes I would play......but I might be just above qualifying level of a banger....:rolleyes: ;)

The only real challenge that was brought up was the "how do you advertise it"
Yes I would attend and more experiments need to be done on the laptop. So far all we know is that it is diet coke proof. Other liquids need to be tested :).

BVal<------Not likely to cash

stuckart
04-30-2008, 03:05 PM
Would you have an objection for the Higher rated players giving up a game or 2. Just not 4.

ie.

6's and 7's race to 4
8's and 9's race to 5
10's + race to 6

And have the stepped entry fees?

Fast Lenny
04-30-2008, 03:10 PM
The best way to draw people to a tourney is added prize money.If your going to use the AZ handicapping then thats fine but i would make it a called handicapped ball instead of wild and make the races longer to help out the better player.I like the system in NY,the most you can get spotted is the 5 ball and of course games on the wire,no spots like the 5 or 6 out,its still competitive and fair.Lets say for instance if someone is rated a 10-2 and the other guy is a 7,that mean he would get the 5 ball and a game spot,if he is a 6 he would get the 5 and 2 games.I think the system that i have seen at the room i played at in NY is the best and fairest i have seen where any player there has a shot to win.This is thanks to Dave Pinkston who as a player understands handicapping to make things fair. :)

stuckart
04-30-2008, 03:19 PM
What do you think of this scenario (Scenario #1)

6's and 7's pay $5
8's pay $10
9's pay $15
10's + pay $20

6's and 7's race to 4
8's and 9's race to 5
10's race to 6

Scenario #1:
5 players - 10's sign-up at $20 each 5 * 20 = 100
5 players - 9's sign-up at $15 each 5 * 15 = 75
5 players - 8's sign-up at $10 each 5 * 10 = 50
5 players - 7's sign-up at $5 each 5 * 5 = 25
5 players - 6's sign-up at $5 each 5 * 5 = 25

Total Money from players $275 for 25 person tourney. Bar puts in $5/person = $125.

Total purse $400
if payout 4 places
1st) $200
2nd) $120
3rd) $60
4th) $20

if 6 places
1st) $160
2nd) $100
3rd) $60
4th) $40
5th) $20
6th) $20

stuckart
04-30-2008, 03:22 PM
vs Scenario #2

Scenario #2:
5 - 10's sign-up at $15 each
5 - 9's sign-up at $10 each
5 - 8's sign-up at $10 each
5 - 7's sign-up at $5 each
5 - 6's sign-up at $5 each

Total Money from players $225 for 25 person tourney. Bar puts in $5/person = $125.

Total purse $350
if payout 4 places
1st) $175
2nd) $120
3rd) $50
4th) $20

if 6 places
1st) $160
2nd) $100
3rd) $60
4th) $40
5th) $20
6th) $20

wildbill9ball
04-30-2008, 03:55 PM
What do you think of this scenario (Scenario #1)

6's and 7's pay $5
8's pay $10
9's pay $15
10's + pay $20

6's and 7's race to 4
8's and 9's race to 5
10's race to 6

Scenario #1:
5 players - 10's sign-up at $20 each 5 * 20 = 100
5 players - 9's sign-up at $15 each 5 * 15 = 75
5 players - 8's sign-up at $10 each 5 * 10 = 50
5 players - 7's sign-up at $5 each 5 * 5 = 25
5 players - 6's sign-up at $5 each 5 * 5 = 25

Total Money from players $275 for 25 person tourney. Bar puts in $5/person = $125.

Total purse $400
if payout 4 places
1st) $200
2nd) $120
3rd) $60
4th) $20

if 6 places
1st) $160
2nd) $100
3rd) $60
4th) $40
5th) $20
6th) $20

great idea I am a 7 and I would love to play

BRKNRUN
04-30-2008, 03:55 PM
I don't think the higher rated players will want to pay more & give up weight......(I won't like it for very long)

The whole concept I proposed is so that novice players will learn how to win by "playing better"rather than by firing the 9 every chance they get in hopes to win 3 games before the other player wins the required additional amount.

That type of stuff sends me toward boiling point.....Like what happend Monday...I make a mistake and get out of line on the very first game...(very easy to do on those lighting fast tables)...and miss a semi difficult shot...My opponent craps in a 4 ball out...(two of the shots going multiple rails)...proceeds to break makes a ball and then misses but hooks me....I make the hit but it leaves the OB in position to be fired toward the end of the table the 9-ball is.. My opponent (of course) fires the OB toward the 9 sending the 9-ball three rail into a side pocket....

He then proceeded to look at me land gave me a look like..."I ment to do that"...like he had accomplished some great shot...Now I am faced with haiving to win 6 games before he wins 1....(on tables that make you feel like you are playing on a countertop)


The problem with Phoenix is that it seems like everyone wants to protect the bangers from actually learning how to play pool...I think they would be better served to be forced to learn how to play better...I think everyong will be better off in the long run..

Under the system I propose....If they really truely suck so bad that they NEVER get better and cash...they will be playing on a FREE entry anyway...How much more protection do they need.

I would be first in line to enter a $5.00 or FREE tournament to get my ars handed to me by Efren Reyes.

wildbill9ball
04-30-2008, 04:04 PM
Under the system I propose....If they really truely suck so bad that they NEVER get better and cash...they will be playing on a FREE entry anyway...How much more protection do they need.

I would be first in line to enter a $5.00 or FREE tournament to get my ars handed to me by Efren Reyes.

YOU HAVE A GOOD IDEA WHAT IF YOU HAD A CHOICE LIKE SIDE POTS YOU JUST CHOOSE NOT TO PAY SO NO MATTER HOW WELL YOU DO YOU DON`T GET ANY MONEY

CocoboloCowboy
04-30-2008, 04:16 PM
A: Get rid of the rating system all together.


I think that will not happen. http://www.geocities.com/cocobolocowboy/nailbiting.gif

stuckart
04-30-2008, 04:28 PM
Would the higher rated players pay more and give (half) the weight they usually would if it was call 9 ball. Meaning you'd have to call the 9 in the certain pocket to count, otherwise it gets spotted.

A race to 4 games for a 6 or 7 would be pretty balanced from getting lucky a few times.

9 on the break would still count though.

Any 10's want to chime in?

CocoboloCowboy
04-30-2008, 04:50 PM
I don't think the higher rated players will want to pay more & give up weight......(I won't like it for very long)

The whole concept I proposed is so that novice players will learn how to win by "playing better"rather than by firing the 9 every chance they get in hopes to win 3 games before the other player wins the required additional amount.

That type of stuff sends me toward boiling point.....Like what happend Monday...I make a mistake and get out of line on the very first game...(very easy to do on those lighting fast tables)...and miss a semi difficult shot...My opponent craps in a 4 ball out...(two of the shots going multiple rails)...proceeds to break makes a ball and then misses but hooks me....I make the hit but it leaves the OB in position to be fired toward the end of the table the 9-ball is.. My opponent (of course) fires the OB toward the 9 sending the 9-ball three rail into a side pocket....

He then proceeded to look at me land gave me a look like..."I ment to do that"...like he had accomplished some great shot...Now I am faced with haiving to win 6 games before he wins 1....(on tables that make you feel like you are playing on a countertop)

The only way to find out if something work is to test it.http://www.geocities.com/cocobolocowboy/nailbiting.gif

Scenario #1, and Scenario #2 both have merit, but the players will tell you what they like by the number who show up at your events.


The problem with Phoenix is that it seems like everyone wants to protect the bangers from actually learning how to play pool...I think they would be better served to be forced to learn how to play better...I think everyong will be better off in the long run..

Who is the "everyone" that is protecting the lesser rated players, and please explain how they are protecting them.

Plus one last question for BRKNRUN what are you personally doing to help the "bangers" as you call them elevate their game.?

I know when Don Rose was the House Pro at Click's he gave FREE Clinics on wednesday night to do just that. Don Rose helped many of the lesser players get better.


http://www.geocities.com/cocobolocowboy/thumbsup.gif To Don for his efforts.

Jimmy M.
04-30-2008, 04:54 PM
You're handicapping it twice with that particular scenario. You're handicapping the money and you're handicapping the race. One or the other might go over alright, but double-handicapping will surely draw moans from some participants.


What do you think of this scenario (Scenario #1)

6's and 7's pay $5
8's pay $10
9's pay $15
10's + pay $20

6's and 7's race to 4
8's and 9's race to 5
10's race to 6

Scenario #1:
5 players - 10's sign-up at $20 each 5 * 20 = 100
5 players - 9's sign-up at $15 each 5 * 15 = 75
5 players - 8's sign-up at $10 each 5 * 10 = 50
5 players - 7's sign-up at $5 each 5 * 5 = 25
5 players - 6's sign-up at $5 each 5 * 5 = 25

Total Money from players $275 for 25 person tourney. Bar puts in $5/person = $125.

Total purse $400
if payout 4 places
1st) $200
2nd) $120
3rd) $60
4th) $20

if 6 places
1st) $160
2nd) $100
3rd) $60
4th) $40
5th) $20
6th) $20

BVal
04-30-2008, 05:00 PM
You're handicapping it twice with that particular scenario. You're handicapping the money and you're handicapping the race. One or the other might go over alright, but double-handicapping will surely draw moans from some participants.
Personally I would rather pay a little less and straight race. That way I can get a better guage of my game and see if I am getting better or not. I played in lots of the all-arounds last year and never once did I get to play one of the AZ big guns (Jimmy, Mitch, Dennis, Mike, Scott) I was willing and was paying $50 for a chance to get run over then racing even and would be more than willing to pay $15 to their $25 or however it would work. imo.

BVal

Drew
04-30-2008, 05:15 PM
I don't think the higher rated players will want to pay more & give up weight

So you're saying that you made a mistake and lost? Who'd have thought?

I'm still trying to figure why this whole city has to use these ratings. I would personally like to see more open tournaments. In fact, how about just one open tournament. I think we need open tournaments with capped ratings. 6 and under, 9 and under, open. No handicaps.

I think you need to fix the tables at the sets before trying to get anything serious going. You ran that last tournament well (though it lasted awhile) so you have my support. We just need to start getting away from these handicaps. They don't help the lower player's game.

And for you 10's out there, don't complain when you miss a shot and lose the set. Now you know how the rest of us feel when we play you.

BRKNRUN
04-30-2008, 05:52 PM
So you're saying that you made a mistake and lost? Who'd have thought?

I'm still trying to figure why this whole city has to use these ratings. I would personally like to see more open tournaments. In fact, how about just one open tournament. I think we need open tournaments with capped ratings. 6 and under, 9 and under, open. No handicaps.

I think you need to fix the tables at the sets before trying to get anything serious going. You ran that last tournament well (though it lasted awhile) so you have my support. We just need to start getting away from these handicaps. They don't help the lower player's game.

And for you 10's out there, don't complain when you miss a shot and lose the set. Now you know how the rest of us feel when we play you.


On the contrary...I don't mind getting beat one bit...If someone runs me over...they run me over.....Frankly...I have never claimed to be Efren Reyes...I am going to make a mistake......But it becomes a little rediculous when 1 mistake puts the other guy on the hill and you have to then win 6 games in a row...(of 9-ball no less....You know they are going to saddle up the rest of the set)

What drives me nuts is the player the craps in 3 9-balls during a set and wins by a score of them 3 and me 5.......and they look at me like they just drilled my nuts with some kind of skill.

A majority of the time I will shake thier hand and say good luck and they will never know the difference......... inside I am asking myself why I am subjecting myself to this type of tournament......

I would much rather take my shot at playing Scott or Jimmy striaght up than subjecting myself to a loss where I end up winning more games than my opponent...

I still can't understand how people think they actually won....When I was an up and comming player...If I won by a handicapped score and my opponent had more games won than I did....I NEVER acted like I just drilled their nuts......(And yes...I have actually overheard someone go over and tell his friends "I just drilled that 9s nuts")

I don't mind getting beat...and I don't mind losing to a spot...But the above kind of stuff does not make make any sense to me...

BVal
04-30-2008, 05:57 PM
On the contrary...I don't mind getting beat one bit...If someone runs me over...they run me over.....Frankly...I have never claimed to be Efren Reyes...I am going to make a mistake......But it becomes a little rediculous when 1 mistake puts the other guy on the hill and you have to then win 6 games in a row...(of 9-ball no less....You know they are going to saddle up the rest of the set)

What drives me nuts is the player the craps in 3 9-balls during a set and wins by a score of them 3 and me 5.......and they look at me like they just drilled my nuts with some kind of skill.

A majority of the time I will shake thier hand and say good luck and they will never know the difference......... inside I am asking myself why I am subjecting myself to this type of tournament......

I would much rather take my shot at playing Scott or Jimmy striaght up than subjecting myself to a loss where I end up winning more games than my opponent...

I still can't understand how people think they actually won....When I was an up and comming player...If I won by a handicapped score and my opponent had more games won than I did....I NEVER acted like I just drilled their nuts......(And yes...I have actually overheard someone go over and tell his friends "I just drilled that 9s nuts")

I don't mind getting beat...and I don't mind losing to a spot...But the above kind of stuff does not make make any sense to me...
I played Mike Sandoval over at Metro one Monday night and beat him 4 to 3 I think. The only game I actually won was the third game in which I got lucky and snapped the 9 in. All the other ones he basically gave to me (I had to make the 9 or the 8-9). I felt really bad (I still took the win though) I even apologized cause I felt bad. The time I played him before that he drilled me 7-1.
As I said before I would rather play them (tournaments) straight up for some the same reasons you want to play that way. Luck is less of a factor and I truly get better.

BVal

BigCat
04-30-2008, 06:09 PM
I believe that the ratings system is the worst thing for pool in Arizona (or any other region). When you look at other pool communities, very few of them use rating systems, and pool thrives just fine in those areas. California is one place that comes to mind. And the strength of the players there is very strong.

A rating system pigeon-holes people into thinking that they "should" or "must" play at a certain level and that they "can't" beat a higher rated player. Nothing could be further from the truth. If a player wants to develop into a better player, play better players. Period. Ask any 10 or above how their game got to that point and almost all will say at some point they just started playing better players that they were not supposed to beat, tournaments or otherwise. "If all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail" - Albert Einstein.

If a player does not want to play at a better level, but just wants to play for fun (which there is absolutely nothing wrong with), then there are plenty of places for them to play as well. I guarantee that there is not a bar/poolroom in town that has a 10 or above that comes into play a tournament on a weekly basis, with maybe 2 or 3 exceptions. There will always be opportunities for these types of players to play and not have to worry about playing higher caliber players.

Plus, there are ways to limit who plays in what tournaments without a rating systems. But for the most part, this isn't even necessary. A ratings system is not necessary. If it was, then wouldn't every region in the country have something similar to what we have here in Arizona? But in reality, it's the opposite, Arizona is the only state (to my knowledge) that uses a statwide handicapping system.

Ray

CocoboloCowboy
04-30-2008, 06:18 PM
Well I find this thread very interesting and would love to inject some information, and an opinions based upon what I see.

After looking at the lasted Issue of the Arizona Billiard Info, and looking at Page # 26 there are over 60 Weekly Tournaments that happen each week in the Phoenix Metro Area, and Tucson. Of the 60 plus Tournaments over 1/2 half are for Nine & Above Rated players.

Than you have the special monthly events like the Desert Classic Tour, or a Scotch here and their, plus Big Money add Tournaments for the Eight & Under players.

Than you have the Tournaments not listed in Arizona Billiard Info, but only in Dr. Jack?s Billiard Newspaper Table Talk. You know the tournament where you could partner up with a Stripper. VBG.

I think add that all together, and you have more Pool Tournaments than weekly/monthly many places. Plus all the Pool Leagues going on nightly like BCA, ACS, TAP, etc.

One of the problems I see is few of the venues be they a Bar, Pool Room, or combination of both seem to consistently drawing a large number of players. The one exception I personally am aware of that consistently from week to week has about an average of 25-30 Players in their tournament, 7 nights a week is Metro Sports Bar.

I see what appear to be a lot of non cooperation between Bar/Room owner who may on the same weekend schedule a monthly, or special event like like the recent weekend when there was a $1,000.00 Add in Tucson at Main Street, (Desert Classic Tour) and THREE $500.00 Adds in the Valley at Kitty?s a Sr. Event, at Northern a Scotch Doubles, and last but not least a 8 and under at the Sets in Tempe.

I often wonder when I see all these events on one weekend, and not much of anything the other Three Weekends who is talking to one another. Meaning are the Bar/Room Talking to one another to try and coordinate their events, so there event don?t all happen the same weekend.

The other observation is few of the Bar/Room owners are doing anything creative to draws players, and keeps players coming back to their Room/Bar from week to week. Sadly they think the same old add, advertising the same tournament, in the Billiard Info, or Table Talk is going to make thing light up like the 4th of July in a tough economy.

Yes their are those who are doing the creative things, like the Sets did with their 8 and under last month, but they are the minority.

Ron M. the Owner of Alexanders in PHX was doing some creative things in the almost monthly he was running a $500.00 Add tournaments for 7?s, 8?s, or a Scotch for about the last six months if I recall. He always seem to have a good field of players, even if the weekend was a post holiday weekend.

Like I said I am just making a few observation based upon what my eyes see. I went out the other night to an 8 and under expecting a tournament, it was scheduled, but only 3 people showed up, the Bar owner said it has been like this since mid January. Not enough are showing up for their weekly 8 and under, so as I said there was no tournament.

Maybe some of the Bar/Room owners need to start working with one another, and doing some creative things to draw players to their tournaments if the Bar/room Owners are not happy with what is happening on tournament night in their Rooms, or Bars.

Nuff said.http://www.geocities.com/cocobolocowboy/zipmouth.gif

CocoboloCowboy
04-30-2008, 06:21 PM
I believe that the ratings system is the worst thing for pool in Arizona (or any other region). When you look at other pool communities, very few of them use rating systems, and pool thrives just fine in those areas. California is one place that comes to mind. And the strength of the players there is very strong.

A rating system pigeon-holes people into thinking that they "should" or "must" play at a certain level and that they "can't" beat a higher rated player. Nothing could be further from the truth. If a player wants to develop into a better player, play better players. Period. Ask any 10 or above how their game got to that point and almost all will say at some point they just started playing better players that they were not supposed to beat, tournaments or otherwise. "If all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail" - Albert Einstein.

If a player does not want to play at a better level, but just wants to play for fun (which there is absolutely nothing wrong with), then there are plenty of places for them to play as well. I guarantee that there is not a bar/poolroom in town that has a 10 or above that comes into play a tournament on a weekly basis, with maybe 2 or 3 exceptions. There will always be opportunities for these types of players to play and not have to worry about playing higher caliber players.

Plus, there are ways to limit who plays in what tournaments without a rating systems. But for the most part, this isn't even necessary. A ratings system is not necessary. If it was, then wouldn't every region in the country have something similar to what we have here in Arizona? But in reality, it's the opposite, Arizona is the only state (to my knowledge) that uses a statwide handicapping system.

Ray


http://www.geocities.com/cocobolocowboy/goodpost.gif

Drew
04-30-2008, 06:24 PM
On the contrary...I don't mind getting beat one bit...If someone runs me over...they run me over.....Frankly...I have never claimed to be Efren Reyes...I am going to make a mistake......But it becomes a little rediculous when 1 mistake puts the other guy on the hill and you have to then win 6 games in a row...(of 9-ball no less....You know they are going to saddle up the rest of the set)

What drives me nuts is the player the craps in 3 9-balls during a set and wins by a score of them 3 and me 5.......and they look at me like they just drilled my nuts with some kind of skill.

That's just being a jackass. You'll encounter them at any skill level. But the players out here need to stop thinking that they can get away with missing. This comes from the tight pockets everybody loves so much. Just try missing on a bar table with buckets. Then watch the 6 or 7 put a 4pack on you. I guarantee you'll take more with your next shot. Losing comes from missing. It's not luck.

Jimmy M.
04-30-2008, 06:33 PM
Then watch the 6 or 7 put a 4pack on you. I guarantee you'll take more with your next shot. Losing comes from missing. It's not luck.

If a 6 or 7 can put a 4 pack on you, why are they getting so much weight? Maybe there should be an adjusted handicap for bar tables.

Drew
04-30-2008, 07:00 PM
If a 6 or 7 can put a 4 pack on you, why are they getting so much weight? Maybe there should be an adjusted handicap for bar tables.

Well I don't like handicapped tournaments to begin with, and I don't like the same three guys winning every week. That's why I suggest keeping players within their capabilities. I know I can't beat Scott or Mitch no matter how well I play. So when I have to face those guys, I just sit back and enjoy the show. There aren't many lessons to be learned by watching those guys that don't miss. I'd rather play my heart out against a 9 and squeak by with a win. You better believe my game got stronger in that set. If you had a tournament with nothing but 9's, who would you pick to win? I'd pick the guy who wants it most. That's what this game is about. I don't like to see robberies, and I don't want to see handicaps to prevent robberies. And I certainly don't want to know who's going to win before the damn thing starts. I want players to earn their wins.

jay helfert
04-30-2008, 09:35 PM
I was just there for a week, and I just don't understand their rating system. Even when someone tried to explain it to me, it sounded like all Greek. :eek:

I mean rating players a 7, 8, 9 or 10 is one thing, but when you start talking about a 10-2 etc. I get lost. I like the old A, B, C and D player rating system. Guess I'm just a dummy. :(

The best handicap system I've seen to date is the USPPA which is used out West in many areas. Gene Stary initiated it many years ago and Tony Annigoni still runs the USPPA. They have a few big events each year, one at the Sands with five or ten thousand in added money.

Fast Lenny
04-30-2008, 09:51 PM
I was just there for a week, and I just don't understand their rating system. Even when someone tried to explain it to me, it sounded like all Greek. :eek:

I mean rating players a 7, 8, 9 or 10 is one thing, but when you start talking about a 10-2 etc. I get lost. I like the old A, B, C and D player rating system. Guess I'm just a dummy. :(

The best handicap system I've seen to date is the USPPA which is used out West in many areas. Gene Stary initiated it many years ago and Tony Annigoni still runs the USPPA. They have a few big events each year, one at the Sands with five or ten thousand in added money.
I agree Jay,rating players D-,C+,B and A+ and so on would be ideal to handicapping.In NY it starts at the 5 and goes up to a + 7 if not higher but the rating system has a broad spectrum so the players are rated where they should be at.In AZ you could have 2 guys rated an 8 and the other guy can give the other 8 a spot,the rating system in AZ might need more numbers to broaden the range and differences in play. :)

stuckart
05-01-2008, 12:01 AM
So the purpose of this thread is find out what the people that hate the rating committee would like to see happen. BESIDES getting rid of the rating system.

I understand the reason for it and the reasons against it. It's here, it works, it gets more people playing pool that have some chances to make a little money, get a little weight without having to try and match up. Personally, having lived in the Midwest, I think it's actually a good thing for pool. It's not for everyone and it's not for every establishment. Enough said.

Would the higher players like to see "Call 9"?

If I held an open tournament with a straight race to 5 I wouldn't have a tourney for very long, if at all.

If I held an open tournament with a handicapped race all I get is complaints.

If I held an open tournament with the stepped entry fee and a straight race to 5, I get a few more people. More Top Players will play for more cash, more lesser players will play better competition for cheap.

If I held an open tournament with the stepped entry fee and a much lower handicapped race, I'll get some flack.

Scenario #3

6's and 7's pay $5
8's and 9's pay $10
10's + pay $15

Even Matched Rating race to 5
MisMatched Rating, lower goes to 4, higher goes to 5

ie. 8 vs 8 (race to 5)
8 vs 10 (race to 4 for the 8, 5 for the 10)
6 vs 10 (race to 4 for the 6, 5 for the 10)

Multiple Sidepots available (5, 10, 20)

I'm trying to do something positive here people, so please help me get something that works for what the Rating Haters believe will work.

Jimmy M.
05-01-2008, 12:11 AM
If it's just a weekly tournament, why not make it a straight race to 4 with the handicapped entry? Anyone has a chance in a race to 4 on the bar table. Do they have a GREAT chance? Like, are the lower rated players the FAVORITES? No, but that's why the entry fee is handicapped.

I guess I just don't understand the need to be "the favorite" before someone will pony up a couple bucks to play in a little weekly tournament.


So the purpose of this thread is find out what the people that hate the rating committee would like to see happen. BESIDES getting rid of the rating system.

I understand the reason for it and the reasons against it. It's here, it works, it gets more people playing pool that have some chances to make a little money, get a little weight without having to try and match up. Personally, having lived in the Midwest, I think it's actually a good thing for pool. It's not for everyone and it's not for every establishment. Enough said.

Would the higher players like to see "Call 9"?

If I held an open tournament with a straight race to 5 I wouldn't have a tourney for very long, if at all.

If I held an open tournament with a handicapped race all I get is complaints.

If I held an open tournament with the stepped entry fee and a straight race to 5, I get a few more people. More Top Players will play for more cash, more lesser players will play better competition for cheap.

If I held an open tournament with the stepped entry fee and a much lower handicapped race, I'll get some flack.

Scenario #3

6's and 7's pay $5
8's and 9's pay $10
10's + pay $15

Even Matched Rating race to 5
MisMatched Rating, lower goes to 4, higher goes to 5

ie. 8 vs 8 (race to 5)
8 vs 10 (race to 4 for the 8, 5 for the 10)
6 vs 10 (race to 4 for the 6, 5 for the 10)

Multiple Sidepots available (5, 10, 20)

I'm trying to do something positive here people, so please help me get something that works for what the Rating Haters believe will work.

Fast Lenny
05-01-2008, 12:22 AM
Call 9 sounds like a great idea but playing even and maybe getting one game on the wire isnt going to draw guys IMO,sure its great for the better players but the majority of guys you have are rated 8 and under so you have to cater to their needs if you want to have a successful tournament.I think the ball spot handicap is best even on the bar box,i think the ball spot and 9 ball should be called also. :cool:

CocoboloCowboy
05-01-2008, 08:02 AM
I was just there for a week, and I just don't understand their rating system. Even when someone tried to explain it to me, it sounded like all Greek. :eek:

I mean rating players a 7, 8, 9 or 10 is one thing, but when you start talking about a 10-2 etc. I get lost. I like the old A, B, C and D player rating system. Guess I'm just a dummy. :(

The best handicap system I've seen to date is the USPPA which is used out West in many areas. Gene Stary initiated it many years ago and Tony Annigoni still runs the USPPA. They have a few big events each year, one at the Sands with five or ten thousand in added money.

Jay first off you are not as you said above ?dummy?. The System is confusing.

I will try and explain how the system is set up, and how I understand it is suppose to work, and what I see as the ?SYSTEMS? Faults.

The System goes from a Four (weakest player, aka lowest number) to a Ten Minus Two (very strong, very verystrong pro like players) Believe Mitch Ellerman, and Scott Frost are the only 10-2?s in AZ, but I am not 100 percent sure of that.

Think that is a total of 9 possible ratings numbers, and IMHO if the NUMBERS went from 1 being the weakest, to 9 being pro like it would be easier to understand the numbers.

Person wanting a rating so they can play in NON OPEN Tournaments in Arizona, can go to say Metro Sport Bar, and play some 8 ball with JAZZ a Rating Committee Member. Jazz makes his judgment what your Rating is and you get a Card saying you are say a 6. Or maybe you go to some say under 8 Tournament and the TD also a Rating Committee Member says you can play as an 8, and after the tournament the TD who was watching you decides you are only a 6, and you get a card stating so.

Now you have your ticket aka Rating Card to play in all tournament open to 6 Rated Players.

In no Bar/Room/Sports Bar in the State I have been in have I personally seen a posted Rating Evaluation Sheet, so one knows what the criteria is for say being rated a 4, 5, 6, 7, etc., rated player.

Now I personally long ago was given by a AZ Rating Committee Member, who name I will not give up a 8-1/2? x 11? peace of will not say a paper that they said was the criterial for reaching a person rating a few year back.

It only defines Rating 4-10. The Header to the sheet says ?Rating Scope? as defined for a game of 9 ball on a 9 foot table.

It defines FOUR Areas, with comments about each area, where a rating is determined.

The Four Area ARE:

1. Shape/English/Speed

2. Safes

3 Kicks

4. General comments

If I has a scanner I would post this information, but I have no scanner.

Now let say that the person who just got their NEW 6 RATING CARD hid their true speed. Rating Committee Member got fool, and the person can do some cleaning up in tournaments until the next Quarterly Rating Committee Meeting, and then they get bumped up to a Seven, or Eight.

I also have never seen posted in any Bar/Room what the criteria is for the Rating Committee to moving a players rating up, and what the criterial is for changing a persons rating.

IMHO a how the rating committee works, what are the rating criteria's are, and how , and why rating are change be they up, or down should be in black and what and available for any player who ask for them.

One of the problem I see with the Rating System is their are Bar/Room Owners on the Committee who for better choice of word protect their SPENDERS by not moving the Spenders up in the Ratings, when the Spender are constantly winning Tournaments in their Rooms/Bar.

Most of the 10,000 Names in the Rating Book are 4-8 Players, and one player jokingly said it best, ?8?s are the Best of the Worst, and 9?s are the Worst of the Best?. (not my words,but made sense.) The 9?s, 10?s, 10-1?s, and 10?2?s are 15-20% of the Rated players.

I do not know if any handicapping system is perfect, but it is my guess that when the Arizona Rating System was invented long before I lived in the Valley.

Someone thought it would be a good idea, and maybe work like an apprenticeship program. Were a player started say as a 5, and worked their way up the ladder to a 9, 10, etc.

But than you have what I will call recreational players, or social players who have ZERO INTEREST in becoming a 8, 9, 10, etc. They are out for some fun, and some refer to them as ?BANGERS?!

Well with out those player in the Rooms, Bar, etc. I wonder how many of those Room/Bar would still offer pool, or have their doors open,

IMHO the recreational players, or social players spend more money on BOOZE than the 9, 10, 10-1?s, and 10-2?s, and Booze Sale is what it takes to pay the bills in many Rooms, and Bar.

BRKNRUN
05-01-2008, 08:35 AM
If it's just a weekly tournament, why not make it a straight race to 4 with the handicapped entry? Anyone has a chance in a race to 4 on the bar table. Do they have a GREAT chance? Like, are the lower rated players the FAVORITES? No, but that's why the entry fee is handicapped.

I guess I just don't understand the need to be "the favorite" before someone will pony up a couple bucks to play in a little weekly tournament.

Sure they have a chance....Based on a previous post 6s and 7s will put a 4pack on you if you miss.....;)


(I kid....I kid...:) )

FLICKit
05-01-2008, 09:52 AM
In no Bar/Room/Sports Bar in the State I have been in have I personally seen a posted Rating Evaluation Sheet, so one knows what the criteria is for say being rated a 4, 5, 6, 7, etc., rated player.

Now I personally long ago was given by a AZ Rating Committee Member, who name I will not give up a 8-1/2? x 11? peace of will not say a paper that they said was the criterial for reaching a person rating a few year back.

It only defines Rating 4-10. The Header to the sheet says ?Rating Scope? as defined for a game of 9 ball on a 9 foot table.

It defines FOUR Areas, with comments about each area, where a rating is determined.

The Four Area ARE:

1. Shape/English/Speed

2. Safes

3 Kicks

4. General comments

If I has a scanner I would post this information, but I have no scanner.

Now let say that the person who just got their NEW 6 RATING CARD hid their true speed. Rating Committee Member got fool, and the person can do some cleaning up in tournaments until the next Quarterly Rating Committee Meeting, and then they get bumped up to a Seven, or Eight.

I also have never seen posted in any Bar/Room what the criteria is for the Rating Committee to moving a players rating up, and what the criterial is for changing a persons rating.

IMHO a how the rating committee works, what are the rating criteria's are, and how , and why rating are change be they up, or down should be in black and what and available for any player who ask for them.

...

I do not know if any handicapping system is perfect, but it is my guess that when the Arizona Rating System was invented long before I lived in the Valley.

Yeah that's the problem with the AZ Rating system or even the ABCD Rating System... There are no true standards by which to rate a player. Both of them may have some loose standards, but they are quite open to subjectivity. One person's A- or 9 level player, may be somebody else's B or 8 level player, and who's to say who's right. And on top of that, you have some places where 5's or 6's are doing the rating. Or someone sees you play once or twice, and then acts like they know what level you should be, more than the TD who has watched you play regularly for the last 3 years. So in many cases they have no true clue. If you're rated wrong, they don't really have a system for re-evaluating the player. You can be stuck at that level, even if you can't truly compete at that level. But, the subjective system is all we got right now and they do the best that they can with what they have right now. And, despite all the complaints, it seems to work to some degree...

BRKNRUN
05-01-2008, 10:20 AM
The only way to find out if something work is to test it.http://www.geocities.com/cocobolocowboy/nailbiting.gif

Scenario #1, and Scenario #2 both have merit, but the players will tell you what they like by the number who show up at your events.




Who is the "everyone" that is protecting the lesser rated players, and please explain how they are protecting them.

Plus one last question for BRKNRUN what are you personally doing to help the "bangers" as you call them elevate their game.?

I know when Don Rose was the House Pro at Click's he gave FREE Clinics on wednesday night to do just that. Don Rose helped many of the lesser players get better.


http://www.geocities.com/cocobolocowboy/thumbsup.gif To Don for his efforts.


Are you flipping dense?????...Don't answer that...I already know...

You know you mention that there are a buch of weekly tournaments that are 9 and under...Yet you fail to list that a majority are weighted in favor of the lower rated player...allmost all are set up so that a monkey can come in and crap his way to the finals without ever having to make a decent shot....Just take flyers until the 9-ball goes in.....winner!!! Sure...higher rated players are getting to the finals of these tournaments...but they have to play perfect and then still hope to beat the luck factor...

Not only does a higher rated player have to go to more games...On top of that the race is shortened giving an "ADDED" benefit to the lower rated player....In some tourmanets they may only have to win two games....(or in some cases only 1 against a 10-1 or 10-2)

You tell me that is not protecting them????

People like to throw out the "well don't miss" line....That is a bunch of crap...Even Efren misses....I have played a match where I kept the guy on lock down for 5 straight games...I have the guy hill -0 and dry break on the 6th rack...The guy immediatly sees the 3 balls lined up to combo on the 9 and craps it in a unintended pocket...then snaps two 9s in a row.........Set over......(Yes...that happend)

What has happened is that nearly every weekly event has turned into a "bang" fest and NOBODY is learning anything about getting better the right way in this game at any weekly event....

I show up to a OPEN event hoping to get to play some competative pool...and I end up drawing "Slammin 6" that only cares about how many balls he can get rolling in one shot to see if he can crap out 2 or 3 games for a win.....How the heck is that going to benefit my future endevers of this game...how is it going to benefit his???...

Fewer and fewer higher rated players show up for these events because of the above...What is it doing for "thier" game...Nothing......And frankly the less better players I see there...the less interest I have in playing myself.

Since I am guessing you probably still have not caught on....Everyone is the "system"...(It was more a figure of speach than a point at any actual group or person)

Now your other very pointed question of what have I done............

Um...well...for starters...I actually post information on here about pool and how to potentialy improve.........not just start crap threads like do you play left handed or re-start the same thread with a slightly re-worded title just for the sake of seeing my animated gifs that I downlowded from some site......Or waste bandwidth by re-posting an entire good post with just a stupid animated gif on the bottom that says "good post"...At least I add some reading content.....(even if its not worth reading)

I may not be a BCA instructor, but I do share pretty much any information I may have about pool...(even if it only teaches what NOT to do).......I am not going to bother waisting my time going though any of your posts to see what you contribute......I have also helped MANY bangers become better...I have had many ask me pointed questions about what I was doing here or there and how did I hit a shot and I have always helped them...I don't hide any information....what I know about pool is openly shared...It is my nature...I was once a banger myself and know exactly what its like.....But I put in the effort to get better...period.

Also...I actually support pool through participattion on a regular basis in weekly, monthly regional, national events..... Did YOU support a local league? Are YOU participating in BCA this year?????

Also...I spent MANY a wednesday night at Clicks for years...I "participated" in the event pretty much every week...I had more than reguar conversations with Don Rose (and ROD who also post on this board).....I think Don really liked to talk Golf with me on Wednesday nights. He would always hit me up with some golf swing question....I learned quite a bit from Don and Rod on Wednesday nights...Don and Rod would always get into some discussion about pool and I always kept an ear open..

Funny I can't recall EVER seeing anyone by your name participating at Clicks on Wednesday nights.

BTW...Don was a pool instuctor...that was his side business....he got paid for lessons....the Wednesday nights he did was marketing....sure it was a great FREE benefit for novice players and better players.... but it was also marketing...He was hoping to get some paid lessons from his efforts...Its called good business.......Did YOU ever get a lesson from him?????

I also helped set up and run (score) a scotch doubles GO BO PO tournament that turned into a GO PO tournament....It turned out to be a great event that was a lot of fun.....I have also stepped in on emergency basis to run weekly events.....Have YOU ever helped run an event anywhere...

Frankly...I can't recall EVER seeing your name supporting or signed up for ANYTHING in all my years of playing pool.....I am not the most popular guy in the valley, but you can walk up to many pool players in the valley and ask them who "goose" is and they will know.

I have had many people come up and ask me "who is that goofball coco boy".......Nobody ever seems to know...

Perharps instead of pointing fingers at what "others" have done....perhaps you should first ask yourself what YOU have done...;)

Prince
05-01-2008, 10:26 AM
WOW! Saddle up ya'll, "the goose is loose" :)

BVal
05-01-2008, 10:31 AM
Are you flipping dense?????...Don't answer that...I already know...

You know you mention that there are a buch of weekly tournaments that are 9 and under...Yet you fail to list that a majority are weighted in favor of the lower rated player...allmost all are set up so that a monkey can come in and crap his way to the finals without ever having to make a decent shot....Just take flyers until the 9-ball goes in.....winner!!! Sure...higher rated players are getting to the finals of these tournaments...but they have to play perfect and then still hope to beat the luck factor...

Not only does a higher rated player have to go to more games...On top of that the race is shortened giving an "ADDED" benefit to the lower rated player....In some tourmanets they may only have to win two games....(or in some cases only 1 against a 10-1 or 10-2)

You tell me that is not protecting them????

People like to throw out the "well don't miss" line....That is a bunch of crap...Even Efren misses....I have played a match where I kept the guy on lock down for 5 straight games...I have the guy hill -0 and dry break on the 6th rack...The guy immediatly sees the 3 balls lined up to combo on the 9 and craps it in a unintended pocket...then snaps two 9s in a row.........Set over......(Yes...that happend)

What has happened is that nearly every weekly event has turned into a "bang" fest and NOBODY is learning anything about getting better the right way in this game at any weekly event....

I show up to a OPEN event hoping to get to play some competative pool...and I end up drawing "Slammin 6" that only cares about how many balls he can get rolling in one shot to see if he can crap out 2 or 3 games for a win.....How the heck is that going to benefit my future endevers of this game...how is it going to benefit his???...

Fewer and fewer higher rated players show up for these events because of the above...What is it doing for "thier" game...Nothing......And frankly the less better players I see there...the less interest I have in playing myself.

Since I am guessing you probably still have not caught on....Everyone is the "system"...(It was more a figure of speach than a point at any actual group or person)

Now your other very pointed question of what have I done............

Um...well...for starters...I actually post information on here about pool and how to potentialy improve.........not just start crap threads like do you play left handed or re-start the same thread with a slightly re-worded title just for the sake of seeing my animated gifs that I downlowded from some site......Or waste bandwidth by re-posting an entire good post with just a stupid animated gif on the bottom that says "good post"...At least I add some reading content.....(even if its not worth reading)

I may not be a BCA instructor, but I do share pretty much any information I may have about pool...(even if it only teaches what NOT to do).......I am not going to bother waisting my time going though any of your posts to see what you contribute......I have also helped MANY bangers become better...I have had many ask me pointed questions about what I was doing here or there and how did I hit a shot and I have always helped them...I don't hide any information....what I know about pool is openly shared...It is my nature...I was once a banger myself and know exactly what its like.....But I put in the effort to get better...period.

Also...I actually support pool through participattion on a regular basis in weekly, monthly regional, national events..... Did YOU support a local league? Are YOU participating in BCA this year?????

Also...I spent MANY a wednesday night at Clicks for years...I "participated" in the event pretty much every week...I had more than reguar conversations with Don Rose (and ROD who also post on this board).....I think Don really liked to talk Golf with me on Wednesday nights. He would always hit me up with some golf swing question....I learned quite a bit from Don and Rod on Wednesday nights...Don and Rod would always get into some discussion about pool and I always kept an ear open..

Funny I can't recall EVER seeing anyone by your name participating at Clicks on Wednesday nights.

BTW...Don was a pool instuctor...that was his side business....he got paid for lessons....the Wednesday nights he did was marketing....sure it was a great FREE benefit for novice players and better players.... but it was also marketing...He was hoping to get some paid lessons from his efforts...Its called good business.......Did YOU ever get a lesson from him?????

I also helped set up and run (score) a scotch doubles GO BO PO tournament that turned into a GO PO tournament....It turned out to be a great event that was a lot of fun.....I have also stepped in on emergency basis to run weekly events.....Have YOU ever helped run an event anywhere...

Frankly...I can't recall EVER seeing your name supporting or signed up for ANYTHING in all my years of playing pool.....I am not the most popular guy in the valley, but you can walk up to many pool players in the valley and ask them who "goose" is and they will know.

I have had many people come up and ask me "who is that goofball coco boy".......Nobody ever seems to know...

Perharps instead of pointing fingers at what "others" have done....perhaps you should first ask yourself what YOU have done...;)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k248/bval_2006/goodpost.gif :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

BVal

Prince
05-01-2008, 10:48 AM
66072

Darn, I forgot to add my gif............the goose is loose.......

stuckart
05-01-2008, 11:41 AM
SO, back to the Topic at hand!

I know the Rating Committee likes to get everyone's panties in a bundle, but let's just say The Ratings are not going anywhere, and there was an establishment or two that was listening to what kind of tournament you wanted, that you would play in, and we'd get a good turnout each and every week of various skill levels.

What do you want?

I've heard so far:

-Open Tournament
-Even Race of more than 3 games (4 or 5)
-Staggered Entry based on Rating


Need to know:
- What day(s) of the week
- Times (which are probably 7 or 7:30)

CocoboloCowboy
05-01-2008, 12:34 PM
Are you flipping dense?????...Don't answer that...I already know...

No I am not as you say, ?flipping dense? as I know there are other forum members who do not live in AZ reading this thread. Plus a few AZ people who may not know everything about the AZ Rating System.

Also I have no reason reason to call my fellow Forum Members names to make a point my point.

You know you mention that there are a buch of weekly tournaments that are 9 and under...Yet you fail to list that a majority are weighted in favor of the lower rated player...allmost all are set up so that a monkey can come in and crap his way to the finals without ever having to make a decent shot....Just take flyers until the 9-ball goes in.....winner!!! Sure...higher rated players are getting to the finals of these tournaments...but they have to play perfect and then still hope to beat the luck factor.

Not only does a higher rated player have to go to more games...On top of that the race is shortened giving an "ADDED" benefit to the lower rated player....In some tourmanets they may only have to win two games....(or in some cases only 1 against a 10-1 or 10-2)

Well if the stronger player plays like they were playing a 10, I would think a large majority of the time the stronger player would win. But your point has some validity about the ?luck factor? in 9 ball.

People like to throw out the "well don't miss" line....That is a bunch of crap...Even Efren misses....I have played a match where I kept the guy on lock down for 5 straight games...I have the guy hill -0 and dry break on the 6th rack...The guy immediatly sees the 3 balls lined up to combo on the 9 and craps it in a unintended pocket...then snaps two 9s in a row.........Set over......(Yes...that happend)

Yes even Efrin does mis a shot now and again.

What has happened is that nearly every weekly event has turned into a "bang" fest and NOBODY is learning anything about getting better the right way in this game at any weekly event....

I show up to a OPEN event hoping to get to play some competative pool...and I end up drawing "Slammin 6" that only cares about how many balls he can get rolling in one shot to see if he can crap out 2 or 3 games for a win.....How the heck is that going to benefit my future endevers of this game...how is it going to benefit his???...
Fewer and fewer higher rated players show up for these events because of the above...What is it doing for "thier" game...Nothing......And frankly the less better players I see there...the less interest I have in playing myself.

Since I am guessing you probably still have not caught on....Everyone is the "system"...(It was more a figure of speach than a point at any actual group or person)

Your point is valid, and if you played 8 Ball Tournaments where all players had to call shots, you would not be victimized by the slammer like in 9 ball.

Um...well...for starters...I actually post information on here about pool and how to potentialy improve.........not just start crap threads like do you play left handed or re-start the same thread with a slightly re-worded title just for the sake of seeing my animated gifs that I downlowded from some site......Or waste bandwidth by re-posting an entire good post with just a stupid animated gif on the bottom that says "good post"...At least I add some reading content.....(even if its not worth reading)

I may not be a BCA instructor, but I do share pretty much any information I may have about pool...(even if it only teaches what NOT to do).......I am not going to bother waisting my time going though any of your posts to see what you contribute......I have also helped MANY bangers become better...I have had many ask me pointed questions about what I was doing here or there and how did I hit a shot and I have always helped them...I don't hide any information....what I know about pool is openly shared...It is my nature...I was once a banger myself and know exactly what its like.....But I put in the effort to get better...period.

Also...I actually support pool through participattion on a regular basis in weekly, monthly regional, national events..... Did YOU support a local league? Are YOU participating in BCA this year?????

No I do not play in a League, No I have never played in a League, No I will not play at the BCA this year. I do not play League for the reason I do not want to promised to be some where for 20 weeks in a row any night. I like to do as I wish when I wish.

Also...I spent MANY a wednesday night at Clicks for years...I "participated" in the event pretty much every week...I had more than reguar conversations with Don Rose (and ROD who also post on this board).....I think Don really liked to talk Golf with me on Wednesday nights. He would always hit me up with some golf swing question....I learned quite a bit from Don and Rod on Wednesday nights...Don and Rod would always get into some discussion about pool and I always kept an ear open..

Funny I can't recall EVER seeing anyone by your name participating at Clicks on Wednesday nights.

BTW...Don was a pool instuctor...that was his side business....he got paid for lessons....the Wednesday nights he did was marketing....sure it was a great FREE benefit for novice players and better players.... but it was also marketing...He was hoping to get some paid lessons from his efforts...Its called good business.......Did YOU ever get a lesson from him?????

I made it to Click?s once on a Wednesday stood, and watched Don?s clinic, and never made it back that was maybe 3 years ago. Going back was on a too do list that never got done.

I also helped set up and run (score) a scotch doubles GO BO PO tournament that turned into a GO PO tournament....It turned out to be a great event that was a lot of fun.....I have also stepped in on emergency basis to run weekly events.....Have YOU ever helped run an event anywhere...

Yes several times but it was not a Pool Event.

Frankly...I can't recall EVER seeing your name supporting or signed up for ANYTHING in all my years of playing pool.....I am not the most popular guy in the valley, but you can walk up to many pool players in the valley and ask them who "goose" is and they will know.

I have had many people come up and ask me "who is that goofball coco boy".......Nobody ever seems to know...

Perharps instead of pointing fingers at what "others" have done....perhaps you should first ask yourself what YOU have done...;)

Well you can not be every where, and I try and get out one night a week, and play in a tournament. Did that last year almost weekly, 2008 has not been a good year, as it has been like bi or tri weekly.

BTW I have just made some observations on what my eye see in the Valley of the Sun.












P.S. Every time I drive to play in a tournament, pay an an entry fee, + green fee, or feed quarters into a bar box, buy a drink & or food in the room, or bar, and go home with less in my pocket after expenses. I am as you say supporting pool. IMHO

CocoboloCowboy
05-01-2008, 12:44 PM
SO, back to the Topic at hand!

I know the Rating Committee likes to get everyone's panties in a bundle, but let's just say The Ratings are not going anywhere, and there was an establishment or two that was listening to what kind of tournament you wanted, that you would play in, and we'd get a good turnout each and every week of various skill levels.

What do you want?

I've heard so far:

-Open Tournament
-Even Race of more than 3 games (4 or 5)
-Staggered Entry based on Rating


Need to know:
- What day(s) of the week
- Times (which are probably 7 or 7:30)






Last suggestion Open the Bar Boxes, and charge everyone a Flat Green Fee.

Ryan A.
05-01-2008, 01:48 PM
Well I don't like handicapped tournaments to begin with, and I don't like the same three guys winning every week. That's why I suggest keeping players within their capabilities. I know I can't beat Scott or Mitch no matter how well I play. So when I have to face those guys, I just sit back and enjoy the show. There aren't many lessons to be learned by watching those guys that don't miss. I'd rather play my heart out against a 9 and squeak by with a win. You better believe my game got stronger in that set. If you had a tournament with nothing but 9's, who would you pick to win? I'd pick the guy who wants it most. That's what this game is about. I don't like to see robberies, and I don't want to see handicaps to prevent robberies. And I certainly don't want to know who's going to win before the damn thing starts. I want players to earn their wins.

I respecfully disagree. I don't think MOST realize what a huge disparity there is in the same rating. Speaking personally I know some 10's that I will gamble with and give the seven. On the other hand, I want weight from others.

Ryan A.
05-01-2008, 01:50 PM
I was just there for a week, and I just don't understand their rating system. Even when someone tried to explain it to me, it sounded like all Greek. :eek:

I mean rating players a 7, 8, 9 or 10 is one thing, but when you start talking about a 10-2 etc. I get lost. I like the old A, B, C and D player rating system. Guess I'm just a dummy. :(

The best handicap system I've seen to date is the USPPA which is used out West in many areas. Gene Stary initiated it many years ago and Tony Annigoni still runs the USPPA. They have a few big events each year, one at the Sands with five or ten thousand in added money.

I agree, the USPPA gets the closest to actually skill levels that I have seen.

BigCat
05-01-2008, 02:00 PM
I know "The Goose".... I know "The Goose"!!!

Can I get an AMEM, my brothers and sisters!!!!!!!

Ray <=== < :eek: Knows now to not ever piss off "The Goose" :eek: >

BVal
05-01-2008, 02:01 PM
I agree, the USPPA gets the closest to actually skill levels that I have seen.
Hey Ryan,

Where do you play at? I play at Kolby's mostly. What is your rating? I am a 7 going on 8.

BVal (Brady)

BVal
05-01-2008, 02:02 PM
I know "The Goose".... I know "The Goose"!!!

Can I get an AMEM, my brothers and sisters!!!!!!!

Ray <=== < :eek: Knows now to not ever piss off "The Goose" :eek: >
I would never piss off a Goose or a BigCat. :)

BVal <------- knows what is good for him :)

Prince
05-01-2008, 02:02 PM
I agree, the USPPA gets the closest to actually skill levels that I have seen.

If this is Ryan who was threatened by "Pots and Pans" at the tourney (knocking you down or looking funny if he doesn't),
I might try you some if i can get the 7....maybe...:)

Dennis

Ryan A.
05-01-2008, 02:08 PM
Hey Ryan,

Where do you play at? I play at Kolby's mostly. What is your rating? I am a 7 going on 8.

BVal (Brady)

10 and play at Kolby's. I haven't been playing for the last 10 months because I had both shoulders operated on. I just started hitting balls again.

Ryan A.
05-01-2008, 02:10 PM
If this is Ryan who was threatened by "Pots and Pans" at the tourney (knocking you down or looking funny if he doesn't),
I might try you some if i can get the 7....maybe...:)

Dennis

I bet you would.

"I may not knock you down when I hit you, but you'll still look funny standing there"

Prince
05-01-2008, 02:20 PM
I bet you would.

"I may not knock you down when I hit you, but you'll still look funny standing there"
C'mon, haven't hit a ball in 3 days.

Stuckart- In regards to this thread, I'm all for open tournaments, straight races for everyone, but a staggered entry fee for the lower rated players. I would agree with others and say that it is a bit unfair to stagger the entry fee and then handicap the tourney. I can tell you from experience, you will not get any upper echelon players should you handicap it both ways, so your better off just doing an 8-under as you will prob get more players. (esp. those players who aren't comfortable playing 9's and above.)

Coco-I would argue your statement about 8 ball tourneys. As an experienced 8 ball player (or maybe I'm not), there is also some luck factor involved (that's just pool), even if it's call pocket. Yes, i would agree, not as much as in 9ball, so IMO i would prefer 8 ball. Please let me know of any open 8 ball tourneys, preferrably with a longer race than 2 on the winner's and 1 on the loser's side in the Phoenix area. Please correct me if i'm wrong, they don't exist. I have my reasons for why they don't, but i won't bore you with them.

Dennis

BVal
05-01-2008, 02:26 PM
I said it earlier in the thread. I would gladly play in open tournaments with a straight race and staggered entry fee. Even if the 9's and 10's paid $50 and 8's and under pay $25. I have paid more for the chance to play 9's and 10's. Anyways just let me know when to show up and where. :)

BVal

Prince
05-01-2008, 02:30 PM
I said it earlier in the thread. I would gladly play in open tournaments with a straight race and staggered entry fee. Even if the 9's and 10's paid $50 and 8's and under pay $25. I have paid more for the chance to play 9's and 10's. Anyways just let me know when to show up and where. :)

BVal
I agree, I think that is fair for a weekly tourney, maybe a little cheaper though. More like 20/10. Our monthly events are $50, and that can get steep for players on a weekly basis.

Dennis

BVal
05-01-2008, 02:35 PM
I agree, I think that is fair for a weekly tourney, maybe a little cheaper though. More like 20/10. Our monthly events are $50, and that can get steep for players on a weekly basis.

Dennis
:) $20 and $10 is probably more realistic. Bummer you aren't playing in the Straight Pool League. One of the reasons I joined is a chance to play 9's and 10's. Jimmy had a really nice run of 79 last Monday to win the high run 9 and over. I won the high run for 8 and under with 19.

BVal

Prince
05-01-2008, 02:52 PM
:) $20 and $10 is probably more realistic. Bummer you aren't playing in the Straight Pool League. One of the reasons I joined is a chance to play 9's and 10's. Jimmy had a really nice run of 79 last Monday to win the high run 9 and over. I won the high run for 8 and under with 19.

BVal
Yeah, it's just too much for me to do right now. The Straight Pool League sounds like fun though. Should be a good warm up for the upcoming State Championship in June. Good job on the 19. I'm sure by the end of the session it will be higher, especially playing with that Jimmy fella. Word to the wise, don't shoot him spot shot for spot shot. Rumor has it, he hit about 40+ in a row recently. You have better odds throwing quarters to the spot, he is horrible. :)

BVal
05-01-2008, 03:02 PM
Yeah, it's just too much for me to do right now. The Straight Pool League sounds like fun though. Should be a good warm up for the upcoming State Championship in June. Good job on the 19. I'm sure by the end of the session it will be higher, especially playing with that Jimmy fella. Word to the wise, don't shoot him spot shot for spot shot. Rumor has it, he hit about 40+ in a row recently. You have better odds throwing quarters to the spot, he is horrible. :)
Thanks for the heads up :D

BVal

Fast Lenny
05-01-2008, 03:06 PM
:) $20 and $10 is probably more realistic. Bummer you aren't playing in the Straight Pool League. One of the reasons I joined is a chance to play 9's and 10's. Jimmy had a really nice run of 79 last Monday to win the high run 9 and over. I won the high run for 8 and under with 19.

BVal
We need to get together and practice some straights Brady,i am not very good at that game and rarely play it but it sounds like fun. :)

BVal
05-01-2008, 03:15 PM
We need to get together and practice some straights Brady,i am not very good at that game and rarely play it but it sounds like fun. :)
I am not very good at it either. I have played it about 5 or 6 times in my life. I really enjoy it though. Send me a PM so we don't hijack this thread any more than we have :D

BVal

stuckart
05-01-2008, 03:50 PM
I scored a personal best 122 last week on my home 8 footer. Only took me 4 1/2 hours or so though, with kids running around and trying to disturb my game.

It's very good practice for when all you monkeys are running around while I'm down for my shots.

CocoboloCowboy
05-01-2008, 04:28 PM
Coco-I would argue your statement about 8 ball tourneys. As an experienced 8 ball player (or maybe I'm not), there is also some luck factor involved (that's just pool), even if it's call pocket. Yes, i would agree, not as much as in 9ball, so IMO i would prefer 8 ball. Please let me know of any open 8 ball tourneys, preferrably with a longer race than 2 on the winner's and 1 on the loser's side in the Phoenix area. Please correct me if i'm wrong, they don't exist. I have my reasons for why they don't, but i won't bore you with them.

Dennis




Well Dennis I will agree with you about the more luck factor in 9 ball, than a call game like 8 ball.

Checking the May Issue of the AZ Billiard Info, Page 26, Weekly Tournament Guide Under OPEN:

There are over 15 Open 8 Ball tournaments list with NO Handicap, most are in Small Bar, with a $5.00 Entry, and I am sure no big pay outs, but they appear as listed, No Handicap Tournament, ever one is even steven depending upon their ability. But as you said all appear to be short race events.

Drew
05-02-2008, 06:25 AM
I respecfully disagree. I don't think MOST realize what a huge disparity there is in the same rating. Speaking personally I know some 10's that I will gamble with and give the seven. On the other hand, I want weight from others.

I think the upper ratings are a bit broader because there are less of you guys. I am only a 7 and I have yet to meet a 7 or 8 that scares me. 9's and up, we'll be discussing weight. I also think that there should be a seperate rating for bar tables. Someone could play 7 speed on the big table and play 9 speed on the bar table. It's using your chess rating for checkers.

Back to the main topic. There won't be many high rated players showing up at the sets. The tables are too small, the pockets are too big, and there's not enough action in the room. So I don't think handicaps are the main issue. I think you just need to start the weekly tournament and adjust as you see fit. Any night is fine for a pool player so I'd do it on the best night for the bar.

Drew
05-02-2008, 06:29 AM
BTW I'm looking forward to your next 500 added 8 and under tournament. Any word on when that's gonna happen?

CocoboloCowboy
05-02-2008, 06:41 AM
I think the upper ratings are a bit broader because there are less of you guys. I am only a 7 and I have yet to meet a 7 or 8 that scares me. 9's and up, we'll be discussing weight. I also think that there should be a seperate rating for bar tables. Someone could play 7 speed on the big table and play 9 speed on the bar table. It's using your chess rating for checkers.



That is a very good point about people playing at different level on Bar Boxes, verses Big Tables.






Also those who are charge with rating a new player initially are of shall I say different skill levels if you look at whom is allowed to give initial ratings.

It is a difficult task like judging Confirmation at a Dog Show, as each Judge has there own personal likes and dislikes likes say in the Breed Labrador Retrievers where you have Yellow, Black, and last but far from least Chocolate.

Some judges always seem to find a Black Lab to put up as Best of Breed in their ring.

Too bad giving a New Player an Initial Rating was not as simple as picking a winner in Grand Prix Show Jumping where the Horse that finishes to course of Jumps with the fewest faults, and the quickest time is always the clear winner, with no post event quibbling.













P.S. Yes I know the rating system is not going to go bye bye.http://www.geocities.com/cocobolocowboy/fragged.gif

stuckart
05-02-2008, 10:08 AM
Drew, you can bring your 8 rated players card with you (As of May 18th) to the next one to be held in June. I haven't finalized the dates yet, but I'll probably try and do it the same weekend as the Desert Classic Tour. ha ha. I'm just joking. No, I'm trying to plan around the Tour, the WBT and other local tourneys.

I'll post on here the second we nail down some dates! Thanks for the support.

Ryan A.
05-02-2008, 11:47 AM
I think the upper ratings are a bit broader because there are less of you guys. I am only a 7 and I have yet to meet a 7 or 8 that scares me. 9's and up, we'll be discussing weight. I also think that there should be a seperate rating for bar tables. Someone could play 7 speed on the big table and play 9 speed on the bar table. It's using your chess rating for checkers.

Back to the main topic. There won't be many high rated players showing up at the sets. The tables are too small, the pockets are too big, and there's not enough action in the room. So I don't think handicaps are the main issue. I think you just need to start the weekly tournament and adjust as you see fit. Any night is fine for a pool player so I'd do it on the best night for the bar.

Good point! I don't see it as much with big table player playing on the box. But the other way is often a struggle for people. One hole I is see with the rating committee is the range of people voting on certain players. What I mean by that is it is very difficult for someone who shots 7 speed to determine what a 10 or 10-1 is. They get ran over by both. Only that player that is playing at that level can see that they are clearly better or lesser of a player. On the flip the better players have trouble determining the difference between a 6 or 7. All they know is that they win almost regardless of the weight. (they have to make the mistake)

This question isn't easily answered and I wish that I could contribut more but the fact remains that it is hard to match a strong player with a weak player and make it fair or attractive. Regardless of the handicap if a 10 plays a 6 he should win. Even if the 6 goes to 1 or 2. The ten is going to have to make the mistake, or get pooped in on. The best recomendation that I have heard is handicap the entry fee. The lesser player at least knows that they are getting a discount for the opportunity to pay their dues.

BVal
05-02-2008, 11:52 AM
Good point! I don't see it as much with big table player playing on the box. But the other way is often a struggle for people. One hole I is see with the rating committee is the range of people voting on certain players. What I mean by that is it is very difficult for someone who shots 7 speed to determine what a 10 or 10-1 is. They get ran over by both. Only that player that is playing at that level can see that they are clearly better or lesser of a player. On the flip the better players have trouble determining the difference between a 6 or 7. All they know is that they win almost regardless of the weight. (they have to make the mistake)

This question isn't easily answered and I wish that I could contribut more but the fact remains that it is hard to match a strong player with a weak player and make it fair or attractive. Regardless of the handicap if a 10 plays a 6 he should win. Even if the 6 goes to 1 or 2. The ten is going to have to make the mistake, or get pooped in on. The best recomendation that I have heard is handicap the entry fee. The lesser player at least knows that they are getting a discount for the opportunity to pay their dues.
I would like to dedicate this reply to CocoboloCowboy

BVal

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k248/bval_2006/goodpost.gif

Ryan A.
05-02-2008, 11:56 AM
That is a very good point about people playing at different level on Bar Boxes, verses Big Tables.






Also those who are charge with rating a new player initially are of shall I say different skill levels if you look at whom is allowed to give initial ratings.

It is a difficult task like judging Confirmation at a Dog Show, as each Judge has there own personal likes and dislikes likes say in the Breed Labrador Retrievers where you have Yellow, Black, and last but far from least Chocolate.

Some judges always seem to find a Black Lab to put up as Best of Breed in their ring.

Too bad giving a New Player an Initial Rating was not as simple as picking a winner in Grand Prix Show Jumping where the Horse that finishes to course of Jumps with the fewest faults, and the quickest time is always the clear winner, with no post event quibbling.













P.S. Yes I know the rating system is not going to go bye bye.http://www.geocities.com/cocobolocowboy/fragged.gif

That is what I like about the USPPA rating system. Much better IMO. It is n't so subjective. Your number or rating is computed not judged. I know you were looking more for what can be tweaked in regards to tournment format, but IMO this would be the greatest thing for AZ pool scene.

In my experience playing in this system when you have a off day you have no chance. If you shot above your rating or number you will contend. Regardless of how high or low that number is. The system now doesnt' allow for this. A top player doesnt' have to play well if he is matched up against someone with a sucnificant skill level drop off.

CocoboloCowboy
05-02-2008, 07:21 PM
That is what I like about the USPPA rating system. Much better IMO. It is n't so subjective. Your number or rating is computed not judged. I know you were looking more for what can be tweaked in regards to tournment format, but IMO this would be the greatest thing for AZ pool scene.

In my experience playing in this system when you have a off day you have no chance. If you shot above your rating or number you will contend. Regardless of how high or low that number is. The system now doesnt' allow for this. A top player doesnt' have to play well if he is matched up against someone with a sucnificant skill level drop off.

Thank for the info on the USPPA rating system.

Drew
05-02-2008, 11:33 PM
Drew, you can bring your 8 rated players card with you (As of May 18th) to the next one to be held in June. I haven't finalized the dates yet, but I'll probably try and do it the same weekend as the Desert Classic Tour. ha ha. I'm just joking. No, I'm trying to plan around the Tour, the WBT and other local tourneys.

I'll post on here the second we nail down some dates! Thanks for the support.

Damn I got bumped? Who's responsible for this? So I only have two more weeks to rob the 7 and under tournaments.

stuckart
05-03-2008, 12:31 AM
Your play is responsible. But you know you've been atleast an 8 for sometime now. Get going on Robbing all you can in the next 2 weeks.

stuckart
06-17-2008, 08:50 AM
Would you play?

Here are my initial thoughts on the tournament.

Open Handicap
$500 added with 32 players, $1000 added with 64, $2000 added with 128
Races to:
6's and 7's go to 7,
8's and 9's go to 8,
10's and 10(-1)'s go to 9,
10(-2)'s go to 10

Staggered Entry ($10 - 6's, $15 - 7's, $20 - 8's, $25 - 9's, $30 - 10's, $40 - 10-1's, $50 - 10-2's)

Sidepots $5/$10/$20
Sidepot $10 winner take all for 7's and below (highest finisher)
Sidepot $20 winner take all for 9's and below (highest finisher)
Sidepot $40 winner take all for everyone = WTA

Cost range (from no sidepots to all)
6's - $10 - $55(+$40WTA),
7's - $15 - $60(+$40WTA),
8's - $20 - $70(+$40WTA),
9's - $25 - $80(+$40WTA),
10's - $30 - $105,
10-1's - $40 - $115,
10-2's - $50 - $125

Payout 25% of the field.

This is the most fair that I could make it.
Benefit for Top players:
Longer Races, 10's only give 2 games to 6's and 7's (usually you'd be giving 3 or 4), 9's only give 1 game to 6's and 7's (usually 2 or 3). 8's and 9's play even, 10's and 10(-1)'s play even.

Benefit for Lower players:
Lower rated players can play higher rated players for cheap entry. Still get some weight, but not as much as before. Great competition with ability to improve game.

Prizes and giveaways from our sponsors. 2 & out and 3 & out door prize drawing. I've already secured sponsorship from Dos Equis, Heineken and Tecate for prizes, drinks, girls, etc.

Think it through and let me know if you'd play in this or not. Prize money could be fairly large!

BRKNRUN
06-17-2008, 09:35 AM
Would you play?

Here are my initial thoughts on the tournament.

Open Handicap
$500 added with 32 players, $1000 added with 64, $2000 added with 128
Races to:
6's and 7's go to 7,
8's and 9's go to 8,
10's and 10(-1)'s go to 9,
10(-2)'s go to 10

Staggered Entry ($10 - 6's, $15 - 7's, $20 - 8's, $25 - 9's, $30 - 10's, $40 - 10-1's, $50 - 10-2's)

Sidepots $5/$10/$20
Sidepot $10 winner take all for 7's and below (highest finisher)
Sidepot $20 winner take all for 9's and below (highest finisher)
Sidepot $40 winner take all for everyone = WTA

Cost range (from no sidepots to all)
6's - $10 - $55(+$40WTA),
7's - $15 - $60(+$40WTA),
8's - $20 - $70(+$40WTA),
9's - $25 - $80(+$40WTA),
10's - $30 - $105,
10-1's - $40 - $115,
10-2's - $50 - $125

Payout 25% of the field.

This is the most fair that I could make it.
Benefit for Top players:
Longer Races, 10's only give 2 games to 6's and 7's (usually you'd be giving 3 or 4), 9's only give 1 game to 6's and 7's (usually 2 or 3). 8's and 9's play even, 10's and 10(-1)'s play even.

Benefit for Lower players:
Lower rated players can play higher rated players for cheap entry. Still get some weight, but not as much as before. Great competition with ability to improve game.

Prizes and giveaways from our sponsors. 2 & out and 3 & out door prize drawing. I've already secured sponsorship from Dos Equis, Heineken and Tecate for prizes, drinks, girls, etc.

Think it through and let me know if you'd play in this or not. Prize money could be fairly large!


I would play either way....but I would suggest

instead of a 7/8/9/10 race, make it a 6/7/8/9 race...save "some" time

stuckart
06-17-2008, 12:47 PM
Thanks Ken. I only started at 7 to make it a little more inviting to the higher rated players.

But I could do it either way.

Anyone else think they would play?

How about all the people that complain about not having enough tournaments for Open players?

BigCat
06-17-2008, 01:28 PM
Would you play?

Here are my initial thoughts on the tournament.

Open Handicap
$500 added with 32 players, $1000 added with 64, $2000 added with 128
Races to:
6's and 7's go to 7,
8's and 9's go to 8,
10's and 10(-1)'s go to 9,
10(-2)'s go to 10

Staggered Entry ($10 - 6's, $15 - 7's, $20 - 8's, $25 - 9's, $30 - 10's, $40 - 10-1's, $50 - 10-2's)

Sidepots $5/$10/$20
Sidepot $10 winner take all for 7's and below (highest finisher)
Sidepot $20 winner take all for 9's and below (highest finisher)
Sidepot $40 winner take all for everyone = WTA

Cost range (from no sidepots to all)
6's - $10 - $55(+$40WTA),
7's - $15 - $60(+$40WTA),
8's - $20 - $70(+$40WTA),
9's - $25 - $80(+$40WTA),
10's - $30 - $105,
10-1's - $40 - $115,
10-2's - $50 - $125

Payout 25% of the field.

This is the most fair that I could make it.
Benefit for Top players:
Longer Races, 10's only give 2 games to 6's and 7's (usually you'd be giving 3 or 4), 9's only give 1 game to 6's and 7's (usually 2 or 3). 8's and 9's play even, 10's and 10(-1)'s play even.

Benefit for Lower players:
Lower rated players can play higher rated players for cheap entry. Still get some weight, but not as much as before. Great competition with ability to improve game.

Prizes and giveaways from our sponsors. 2 & out and 3 & out door prize drawing. I've already secured sponsorship from Dos Equis, Heineken and Tecate for prizes, drinks, girls, etc.

Think it through and let me know if you'd play in this or not. Prize money could be fairly large!

I would definitely play in this tournament.

Ray

Rod
06-17-2008, 05:08 PM
As a 9 rated player I would play in this type of tournament. However because of working nights and weekends it's not going to happen.

As Ken suggested, I think the max at 9 games makes good sense. Of course the 6's may not be happy but probably few will show anyway. Well, just the ones that want the oppornitunity to player stronger players at a reduced fee.

Years ago we run monthly tournaments. I'd always hear it from one end or the other. It never ends all you can do is try to please the majority and thats it.

If I don't like a tournament, I just don't play. Sometimes I play at metro on monday night open. Hdcp -3 is a tough nut to crack. A 6 going to three can be interesting but I think I've only lost once to a 6. On the other hand playing Mitch I do have a chance to win. I just work with the system and what the room offers. My point is at hdcp -1 I think its fair to all. Just have a cut off point no lower than 6. Then add in the graduated entry fee and you have a tournament.

We charged green fees instead of quarters, it speeds up the tournament. I'm sure all of you have experienced a player say, be right back I need to get some quarters. That plus you don't need a few hundred in quarters and it helps free up the staff's time.

Rod

stuckart
06-17-2008, 06:03 PM
Looks like we have some people liking the format. How about the 10's and above? What do you guys think?

With 14 tables, we could run a fairly large tourney without having to play till 3 a.m.

I want to hear more.

grindz
06-17-2008, 07:07 PM
I'm not sure what your goal is. I would think that it is to get the most players to the bar as possible. To do that the 'carrot' would have to be the biggest prize for the least amount of entry $ IMO.

I like the lower entry fees and one day tourneys myself. So short races...race to 4 would be good accross the board. I would be willing to bet the the lower the handicap the higher the bar tab, so keep the entry CHEAP....say half your handicap to encourage the masses. Make it single elimination with the option to buy back in to the losers side with the same entry fee. Have a trophy and/or stipend (maybe free entry for a bigger quarterly...) for the highest finisher of each handicap so us lowlies have something to look forward to.

Make it FUN. There are an infinite # of things to do that could change the atmosphere. If you're trying to gain market share try something new.

JMNSHO

td

FLICKit
06-17-2008, 07:39 PM
...so IMO i would prefer 8 ball. Please let me know of any open 8 ball tourneys, preferrably with a longer race than 2 on the winner's and 1 on the loser's side in the Phoenix area. Please correct me if i'm wrong, they don't exist. I have my reasons for why they don't, but i won't bore you with them.
Metro Sports has 8 ball weekly tournaments (Fridays) that are longer. Race to 2 all the way, unless you're an 8 then it's race to 3 all the way. But, it's an 8 and under.

Metro Sports used to have an 8 ball weekly tournament (Tuesdays) that was longer races and on 9' tables. Don't think it was Open, but it was 9 and under instead. So, at least it was a place that 9's could play and be on the top end, instead of the bottom. Unfortunately they didn't get enough turn-out to keep it going so they've changed it up, looking for something that'll work better.

Bad Company
06-17-2008, 10:10 PM
Wow, CC Cowboy you have zero right to even mention Don Rose. I play at clicks and new him very well. I have never even heard of you playing there. If you spent more time on the table rather than posting and making a idiot out yourself, you might get some credit . Like I told you before fall of the face of the earth you F***ing waste of time.

Now to the Az rating system. We should all play even, sink or swim ladies. If you want weight, GAMBLE!

Best regards,

Bad Company

stuckart
06-18-2008, 06:37 AM
Metro still has the open on Mondays, but you are talking $7 entry and only a $5 sidepot. You get some good competition in there though. I play this tourney every chance I get, but you still only get 20 players.

What I'm trying to do is get the most people of all different skill levels to play in a weekend tournament that has a good size payout. I lowered the entry for the lower ranked players so they can get in cheap and play much better competition. This will improve there game bigtime! I cut the handicap in half so the higher rated players won't get sucked out on with 1 or 2 fluke 9 ball breaks or slop shots. Plus they have larger entry fees, so if they plan on winning the tourney they need to put up.

Who else would be willing to play in this tourney? If I get enough positive response, I'll make this a go in the Fall.

More feedback please? Post #71 has the breakdown.

stuckart
06-18-2008, 01:49 PM
Bump. I need more input please!!

Post #71 has the tournament details.

Thanks!!!!