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av84fun
04-30-2008, 06:40 PM
There have been some very interesting posts/polls lately about bhe/fhe english.

I thought it would be interesting to ask EXACTLY how those who use one or both techniques go about it.

Please deal with each separately if you use both. What I am interested in includes but is not limited to:

1. The process by which you reorient the cue to the line on which you intend to deliver it to the CB.

2. When do you adopt that line...i.e. before you bend into the shot...during your warm up strokes....on the last forward stroke????

3. Do you use those techniques whenever you apply english or just on certain shots...which ones...and why?

In generaly, please just walk us through your approach to your use of those techniques in as much details as possible

THANKS!

Jim

Big C
04-30-2008, 07:11 PM
Joe Tucker has some videos here on this subject. They were very helpful to me.

scottycoyote
04-30-2008, 08:10 PM
yes tucker has the best stuff on this, followed by some of colin's youtube stuff he did on the subject. All i do is aim a little thin or fat, expecially on fairly close shots, then if im using both at the same time (like tucker advocates), i just slightly move my bridge hand and slightly move my backhand.....doesnt take much. Its really more of a feel thing for me

av84fun
04-30-2008, 08:47 PM
yes tucker has the best stuff on this, followed by some of colin's youtube stuff he did on the subject. All i do is aim a little thin or fat, expecially on fairly close shots, then if im using both at the same time (like tucker advocates), i just slightly move my bridge hand and slightly move my backhand.....doesnt take much. Its really more of a feel thing for me

Do you make those adjustments before...during your warm up strokes or all at once during the final forward stroke?

Thanks,
Jim

av84fun
04-30-2008, 08:55 PM
Joe Tucker has some videos here on this subject. They were very helpful to me.

Right...I'm just interested in how those members here who use one or both techniques actually go about doing it.

For me, on small angle cuts, I use what is inaccurately called "parallel english" but that's what most call it and so will I.

Here's what I do. It may be quirky but....

FHE

I only use it on low left and I sort of "scrunch" my forefinger and thumb a little down and left to achieve it. That doesn't work on high right or left...so I don't use it.

I do the scrunch on the pause I use to complete the final warm up stroke....then just draw back and shoot.

BHE

I use it for high (both sides) and low right for the reasons cited above.

Again, I do the adjustment from center ball aim on my warm up strokes on the final pause.

Again, on small tip offsets, I don't see the point in using either method.

Regards,
Jim

scottycoyote
04-30-2008, 09:02 PM
i make the adjustment after my warmups, but before my final stroke.

softshot
05-01-2008, 01:19 AM
for me... I tend to use my front hand to adjust the amount of follow or draw.. and the back hand to adjust sidespin.
I orientate my spin, and place my tip as close as possible to the cueball, before my first practice stroke. then I stroke 3 to 5 times, swapping my focus from CB to GB focusing on the GB last and stroke the shot.

WesleyW
05-01-2008, 02:02 AM
There have been some very interesting posts/polls lately about bhe/fhe english.

I thought it would be interesting to ask EXACTLY how those who use one or both techniques go about it.

Please deal with each separately if you use both. What I am interested in includes but is not limited to:

1. The process by which you reorient the cue to the line on which you intend to deliver it to the CB.

2. When do you adopt that line...i.e. before you bend into the shot...during your warm up strokes....on the last forward stroke????

3. Do you use those techniques whenever you apply english or just on certain shots...which ones...and why?

In generaly, please just walk us through your approach to your use of those techniques in as much details as possible

THANKS!

Jim

Recently I use FHE, BHE and PE. I started with FHE, still like it. Did some BHE to know how it works. Buying a 314, so try using PE. But at the end, I'm going back to FHE, even with the 314.

Using FHE, I do the following:
1. When I use FHE, it's always because I need some english. Distance will not matter to me.
2. Like always, I try to predict the path the CB will go. Let say I need left english.
3. Than, I need to know if I make a follow, stun or draw shot. I will explain it later why I do this. This is really important.
4. I watch the distance and calculate how much squirt I will get.
5. I try to imagine the 'normal' line. It's the line, when you don't use english. No squirt or swerve calculated.
6. Now, I'm make some adjustment. When you need left english, the CB will squirt to the right. When I use follow left, I adjust the 'normal' line to the right (yes to the right). When I use only left english, I adjust a little to the left. When I use drawing left, I adjust a little more to the left, compare to using only left english.
7. Now, I line up. I do some practicing shot, to know if I got the right alignment.
8. My backhand stays still. I pivot my forehand to get the right amount of side english.
9. I do even more practicing shots.
10. If everything is alright, I will pull the trigger.

I don't use BHE and PE anymore, because both are unpredictable. By using BHE, you are pivotting too much. It's hard to get control over it. Using PE is even harder, because, you have no line to aim. So you don't know if your cue is really parallel.

D Player
05-01-2008, 08:21 AM
[QUOTE=WesleyW]
6. Now, I'm make some adjustment. When you need left english, the CB will squirt to the right. When I use follow left, I adjust the 'normal' line to the right (yes to the right). When I use only left english, I adjust a little to the left. When I use drawing left, I adjust a little more to the left, compare to using only left english.
QUOTE]

Would you mind explaining a little further, how the amount of swerve changes when cueing high-left, left, and low-left?

Thanks!
Jeff

av84fun
05-01-2008, 09:23 AM
[QUOTE=WesleyW]
6. Now, I'm make some adjustment. When you need left english, the CB will squirt to the right. When I use follow left, I adjust the 'normal' line to the right (yes to the right). When I use only left english, I adjust a little to the left. When I use drawing left, I adjust a little more to the left, compare to using only left english.
QUOTE]

Would you mind explaining a little further, how the amount of swerve changes when cueing high-left, left, and low-left?

Thanks!
Jeff

Pure sidespin (which hardly exists in pool due to the nearly always elevated cue) such as can be achieved by spinning the ball with your hands...like a top...will not cause much curve since the spin is occuring about the vertical axis.

In other words, when spinning about the vertical axis, there is no spin forward, backward or the the left or right.

But when you introduce other than a level stroke...mostly downward due to having to clear the cushions...then the CB will rotate to the left or right (not just about the vertical axis).

Therefore, due to cloth friction, (and possibly other physical laws that are beyond me) the ball will curve in the direction of the non-vertical rotation.

Regards,
Jim

SpiderWebComm
05-01-2008, 09:25 AM
high left/right: immediate swerve
low left/right: delayed swerve
left/right: nominal / no swerve

Don Feeney had a good video on this if you can find it.

D Player
05-01-2008, 09:45 AM
high left/right: immediate swerve
low left/right: delayed swerve
left/right: nominal / no swerve

Don Feeney had a good video on this if you can find it.

Thanks! Quick follow up question...

Is the amount of swerve different when cueing high or low, or just the time at which the swerve occurs?

dr_dave
05-01-2008, 10:06 AM
FYI, Colin Colenso has a very good (and long) video explaining how back-hand-Enlgish (BHE) is commonly used in practice. See NV A.19 (http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVA-19.htm). Also, if people want detailed illustrations and explanations of the methods, see my November '07 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/nov07.pdf). For even more info, see:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#compensation

Regards,
Dave

There have been some very interesting posts/polls lately about bhe/fhe english.

I thought it would be interesting to ask EXACTLY how those who use one or both techniques go about it.

Please deal with each separately if you use both. What I am interested in includes but is not limited to:

1. The process by which you reorient the cue to the line on which you intend to deliver it to the CB.

2. When do you adopt that line...i.e. before you bend into the shot...during your warm up strokes....on the last forward stroke????

3. Do you use those techniques whenever you apply english or just on certain shots...which ones...and why?

In generaly, please just walk us through your approach to your use of those techniques in as much details as possible

THANKS!

Jim

SpiderWebComm
05-01-2008, 10:14 AM
Thanks! Quick follow up question...

Is the amount of swerve different when cueing high or low, or just the time at which the swerve occurs?

I would have to think high has more swerve since there's more spin earlier in the CB's travel. I honestly never really think about it - I just shoot. I know that's not helpful, but I don't think I really know.

dr_dave
05-01-2008, 10:18 AM
I would have to think high has more swerve since there's more spin earlier in the CB's travel.This depends on shot speed, cue elevation, and shot distance. For more details and illustrations, see my March '08 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2008/march08.pdf).

Regards,
Dave

SpiderWebComm
05-01-2008, 10:23 AM
This depends on shot speed, cue elevation, and shot distance. For more details and illustrations, see my March '08 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2008/march08.pdf).

Regards,
Dave

Well done.

Bob Jewett
05-01-2008, 10:28 AM
Thanks! Quick follow up question...

Is the amount of swerve different when cueing high or low, or just the time at which the swerve occurs?
The angle of swerve is given by the same method that Coriolis described 173 years ago for aiming masse shots. Your stick at the instant of contact with the cue ball points to a spot on the cloth, X. The cue ball at that instant rests on a spot on the cloth, Y. The final path of the cue ball after it curves will be parallel to the line joining Y and X.

Is the spot X more "to the side" for draw or follow?

dr_dave
05-01-2008, 10:33 AM
The angle of swerve is given by the same method that Coriolis described 173 years ago for aiming masse shots. Your stick at the instant of contact with the cue ball points to a spot on the cloth, X. The cue ball at that instant rests on a spot on the cloth, Y. The final path of the cue ball after it curves will be parallel to the line joining Y and X.If people want to learn more about this method, I have good illustrations in my November '05 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2005/nov05.pdf).

Regards,
Dave

Travis Bickle
05-01-2008, 10:35 AM
I'll try to work out the angle before I get down, then massage it a little as I zero in. How much is enough, how much is too much, depending on whether it's a hard, medium or soft stroke to be played and high or low. Pivots all pretty much on auto-pilot, but I lock it in before warmup strokes.

D Player
05-01-2008, 11:18 AM
This depends on shot speed, cue elevation, and shot distance. For more details and illustrations, see my March '08 article (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2008/march08.pdf).

Regards,
Dave

Thanks for the article! This gets right to the heart of my question.

D Player
05-01-2008, 11:30 AM
The angle of swerve is given by the same method that Coriolis described 173 years ago for aiming masse shots. Your stick at the instant of contact with the cue ball points to a spot on the cloth, X. The cue ball at that instant rests on a spot on the cloth, Y. The final path of the cue ball after it curves will be parallel to the line joining Y and X.

Is the spot X more "to the side" for draw or follow?

I'm not sure...

I would guess that if we shoot a draw shot with the tip of the cue pointed at X1 and a follow shot with the tip of the cue pointed at X2, AND we use the same amount of sidespin on each shot -- then line X1Y and line X2Y would not be parallel. Line X2Y would be closer the line of original aim of the cue.

Does that mean that all other things being equal, the angle of swerve is greater for a draw shot than a follow shot?

dr_dave
05-01-2008, 12:14 PM
I'm not sure...

I would guess that if we shoot a draw shot with the tip of the cue pointed at X1 and a follow shot with the tip of the cue pointed at X2, AND we use the same amount of sidespin on each shot -- then line X1Y and line X2Y would not be parallel. Line X2Y would be closer the line of original aim of the cue.

Does that mean that all other things being equal, the angle of swerve is greater for a draw shot than a follow shot?Yes. If you want more details and illustrations, see my March '08 article. (http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2008/march08.pdf)

Regards,
Dave

JE54
05-25-2008, 07:38 AM
Joe Tucker gave a definte answer.

Patrick Johnson
05-25-2008, 08:53 AM
DELETED: Dr. Dave said it better.