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mullyman
04-30-2008, 07:16 PM
Ok, I'm wondering how everyone feels on this subject. Jerry Franklin era cues vs current era. Personally, every time I hear of people saying the Franklin era cues were better it kind of bothers me. If I worked for SouthWest I would take that as an insult. I mean, Jerry's nephew is the one in the shop, sorry, I don't remember his name, and I'm assuming he was taught by Jerry and is carrying on Jerry's tradition of how the cues are/were made.

How do the people at SW feel about this?
MULLY

Big C
04-30-2008, 07:26 PM
I agree. It's like saying "Runde era Schon". The new Schons play just as good, or better. I don't know who builds them now, but I like 'em. I think people advertise Franklin or Runde in an attempt to fetch a higher price as it may apeal more to a collector.

Roadkill
04-30-2008, 07:26 PM
Jerry Franklin was a cuemaking genius highly skilled in all aspects of his craft; from wood selection to finishing. I've owned several cues from each era and for me there is no substitution for the masterpieces crafted during the Franklin period.

mullyman
04-30-2008, 07:32 PM
Jerry Franklin was a cuemaking genius highly skilled in all aspects of his craft; from wood selection to finishing. I've owned several cues from each era and for me there is no substitution for the masterpieces crafted during the Franklin period.


Fair enough. I can understand wood selection but about the cue making itself.....didn't Jerry pass that along to whoever was in the shop? And was Jerry the only person that worked on the cues when he was alive? Just curious.
MULLY

Roadkill
04-30-2008, 07:44 PM
Fair enough. I can understand wood selection but about the cue making itself.....didn't Jerry pass that along to whoever was in the shop? And was Jerry the only person that worked on the cues when he was alive? Just curious.
MULLY

The Southwest cues of today are second to none. The cues are actually built in a shop inside the garage at the Franklin residence. Jerry had assistants as does Laurie who does an awesome job running the business.

Jerry Frankin is among the top cuemakers of all time. His name will go down in history with the likes of George Balabushka and Gus Szamboti. And the hard cold truth is, you can't pass along cuemaking genius.

JB Cases
04-30-2008, 08:44 PM
At the time of Jerry's death the shop was running as Jerry had set it up. He was looking forward to taking time to travel the world looking for wood.

It is my opinion that there is no difference structurally between the cues that are made now and the ones made before Jerry passed away.

Unless Laurie has changed anything in the way the cues are built there should be no difference.

Cuemaking genius can certainly be passed on. It was passed to Jerry by David Kersonbrock, passed from Gus to Barry Szamboti, passed from Paul Mottey to Jame White.

I personally hate to hear anyone refer to Southwest cues and pre-Jerry and post-Jerry as if one is better than another. Jerry's goal was to have a shop where the cues were all made to the same standard. By all accounts he achieved that goal and Laurie and her staff continue to produce cues the same way.

I have owned both and I see no difference in the fit and finish, nor in how the cues play.

On another topic however is the Runde Schon vs. the post-Runde Schon. Legend has it that when Bob Runde was running Schon that the production was capped at 995 (or so) cues a year. Wood selection was tightly controlled. After Bob left production went up to around 5000 cues a year and wood selection was not as controlled. So I hear.

I have owned Schons from both eras and I firmly believe that the one from the Runde era is the better cue. A Schon from any time is a great cue though.

JoeyInCali
04-30-2008, 08:47 PM
I agree. It's like saying "Runde era Schon". The new Schons play just as good, or better. I don't know who builds them now, but I like 'em. I think people advertise Franklin or Runde in an attempt to fetch a higher price as it may apeal more to a collector.
Are the joint collars and ferrules the same as Runde era Schons?

Salamander
04-30-2008, 09:49 PM
The Southwest cues of today are second to none. The cues are actually built in a shop inside the garage at the Franklin residence. Jerry had assistants as does Laurie who does an awesome job running the business.

Jerry Frankin is among the top cuemakers of all time. His name will go down in history with the likes of George Balabushka and Gus Szamboti. And the hard cold truth is, you can't pass along cuemaking genius.

The cues from the SW of today are as good, if not better than the SW's during the Franklin days. Visits to the shop, numerous talks with Jerry and Lauri, and having owned and played with over 10 of each convince me of this.

powerlineman80
04-30-2008, 10:19 PM
Jerry Franklin was a cuemaking genius highly skilled in all aspects of his craft; from wood selection to finishing. I've owned several cues from each era and for me there is no substitution for the masterpieces crafted during the Franklin period.

I've never shot with a SW but people have to realize that one guy builds cues differently than others no matter if they taught that person or not. I can teach my nephew how to pitch just like I did, but he is still going to have his own style regardless. Just like Bob Meucci building cues and then letting others build them with his same specs but the ones that build them now shoot nothing like they did when he built the MO's, etc. JMHO.

Tommy-D
04-30-2008, 11:30 PM
> This is just me,but I've hit balls with close to 30 different SW's over the years,and have came to this conclusion. The ones with the old-school Micarta ferrules or ivory played great. The ones with the LBM,Ivorine or whatever woven ferrules they currently use or whatever the originals were replaced with hit/felt like a McDermott,across both eras of their construction,pre and post-Jerry.

I firmly believe the ferrule material means that much combined with their other materials and construction methods.

The use of melamine/phenolic on this type of cue just feels wrong for ME. On the other hand,I like it on other cues.

If I was in the market for a SW/Kersenbrock,I'd only be interested in ivory or Micarta ferruled shafts,or if I had a source for a couple Micarta blanks. Tommy D.

JB Cases
05-01-2008, 01:03 AM
> This is just me,but I've hit balls with close to 30 different SW's over the years,and have came to this conclusion. The ones with the old-school Micarta ferrules or ivory played great. The ones with the LBM,Ivorine or whatever woven ferrules they currently use or whatever the originals were replaced with hit/felt like a McDermott,across both eras of their construction,pre and post-Jerry.

I firmly believe the ferrule material means that much combined with their other materials and construction methods.

The use of melamine/phenolic on this type of cue just feels wrong for ME. On the other hand,I like it on other cues.

If I was in the market for a SW/Kersenbrock,I'd only be interested in ivory or Micarta ferruled shafts,or if I had a source for a couple Micarta blanks. Tommy D.

This is where the discussion ought to be. Cuemakers often change their construction when they believe they have found a better way. Often the customers can tell a difference and prefer different versions.

IF SW or Schon has changed the ferrule material by design or due to supply issue then that would change the hit when comparing cues that use different materials.

Which is why I am happy to be in cases :-) Much more freedom to change.

HIRUN526
05-01-2008, 04:45 AM
I own and have owned a number of South West cues and and have played with both and I can't tell the difference.

I believe that Laurie,Michael and Al have done an awesome job of continuing the South West tradition, Jerry would would be pleased with their commitment and craftsmanship.

I love South West cues.

Troy Mckune
05-01-2008, 04:28 PM
If I was just purchasing a Southwest for a playing cue, it would not matter if it were new or Franklin era. If I was purchasing for my collection there is no doubt I would rather purchase a Franklin era cue.

my 2 cents

Troy

JimS
05-01-2008, 07:18 PM
I have owned 14 or 15 SW cues. Of that number I think I've had about 5 Franklin cues and 10 post Franklin cues.

Some SW cues hit "better", more crisply... which is my predisposition for liking a cue... than others but I cannot say that there is a noticeable difference between cues made while Jerry was makeing them or after his death.

I currently have one from 1985, which is on the cover of the first Blue Book, and it is one of the superior SW's.. again, imo. But others who have hit with it always exclaim how well it plays.

I also have a 9 point ebony/maple SW cue, #305-99, that hits almost as well and there are no similarities in these cues. One is wrapped, the other is no-wrap. One is 9 pt ebony/maple, the other is 6 long pts of macassar ebony/tulip/maple. Yet these cues seem to stand out from the feel of the others.

I also have another Franklin cue, a 57" cue, with 3 long/3 short points of purpleheart, that hits almost as good as the no-wrap cue and might play every bit as well, but I havn't put my X hard Talisman or Morri Quick on it, as the others have, and I don't hit it as often... as I like a no wrap cue. It and the early cue have the older, yellowish micarta ferrules.

I then have 2 other SW's that are just average SW's. They are beautiful cues that play great but the 3 mentioned above are, to my hand, a cut above.

All are in pristine condition and I'm a lucky boy :D

I do love SW's but I gotta tell ya the cues with the wood pins, from Chuck Starkey, are as well finished and hit as good as any cue in captivity... imo. They are REALLY solid!

As great as these cues are my playing cue is still my old Sailor w/a Z2. I don't have to worry about the Sailor getting "lost" and it hits great and has an old very cool look.

Roadkill
05-01-2008, 07:46 PM
At the time of Jerry's death the shop was running as Jerry had set it up. He was looking forward to taking time to travel the world looking for wood.

It is my opinion that there is no difference structurally between the cues that are made now and the ones made before Jerry passed away.

Unless Laurie has changed anything in the way the cues are built there should be no difference.

Cuemaking genius can certainly be passed on. It was passed to Jerry by David Kersonbrock, passed from Gus to Barry Szamboti, passed from Paul Mottey to Jame White.

I personally hate to hear anyone refer to Southwest cues and pre-Jerry and post-Jerry as if one is better than another. Jerry's goal was to have a shop where the cues were all made to the same standard. By all accounts he achieved that goal and Laurie and her staff continue to produce cues the same way.

I have owned both and I see no difference in the fit and finish, nor in how the cues play.

On another topic however is the Runde Schon vs. the post-Runde Schon. Legend has it that when Bob Runde was running Schon that the production was capped at 995 (or so) cues a year. Wood selection was tightly controlled. After Bob left production went up to around 5000 cues a year and wood selection was not as controlled. So I hear.

I have owned Schons from both eras and I firmly believe that the one from the Runde era is the better cue. A Schon from any time is a great cue though.

It's so good to know that we all have someone available like you who has all the answers. You are truly a legend in your own mind.

ap_audio
05-01-2008, 07:59 PM
I personally haven't shot with any of the Franklin era SW's but I've shot with several of the current edition ones and I can't say I've ever been disappointed. Al Lawrence and Jerry's son, Mickey if I remember correctly, both work in the shop currently (forgive me if I'm forgetting anyone), and Laurie in the office. Since I've moved out here the first of January, I've become fairly good friends with Al Lawrence and he has brought me to the shop and shown me the entire process and explained every aspect of the process to me and it is just simply incredible. He has worked in the shop for 20 years now and admits that he considers himself still an amateur compared to Jerry although if you ask anyone else, they will say differently, and his work speaks worlds.
I'll talk to John Kutcher and Al Lawrence, and everyone else around the Las Vegas Valley that shoots with SW, and if I ever get the chance to shoot with a Jerry era cue I will repost.

JimS
05-02-2008, 03:40 AM
I personally haven't shot with any of the Franklin era SW's but I've shot with several of the current edition ones and I can't say I've ever been disappointed. Al Lawrence and Jerry's son, Mickey if I remember correctly, both work in the shop currently (forgive me if I'm forgetting anyone), and Laurie in the office. Since I've moved out here the first of January, I've become fairly good friends with Al Lawrence and he has brought me to the shop and shown me the entire process and explained every aspect of the process to me and it is just simply incredible. He has worked in the shop for 20 years now and admits that he considers himself still an amateur compared to Jerry although if you ask anyone else, they will say differently, and his work speaks worlds.
I'll talk to John Kutcher and Al Lawrence, and everyone else around the Las Vegas Valley that shoots with SW, and if I ever get the chance to shoot with a Jerry era cue I will repost.

I don't think Jerry and Laurie had a son, unless I'm just not aware of all the details and Mickey is Jerry's nephew... if memory serves.

JimS
05-02-2008, 03:44 AM
It's so good to know that we all have someone available like you who has all the answers. You are truly a legend in your own mind.

John/JB has extensive experience in the world of pool and contributes that experience and knowledge to the forums. He's a valuable resource who knows something of the inside world of pool equipment manufacture and sales.

You sound lilke you are attacking him. Why would you want to do that?

Fast Lenny
05-02-2008, 04:14 AM
It's so good to know that we all have someone available like you who has all the answers. You are truly a legend in your own mind.
Where did you come from anyways? :confused:

Hierovision
05-02-2008, 07:15 AM
It's so good to know that we all have someone available like you who has all the answers. You are truly a legend in your own mind.

Speaking of which.

They are inferior in terms of mechanical strength.

If you really want a flat-faced joint (which is inferior to piloted), I would probably go with a brass 3/8-11.

But don't over analyze and remember; it's not the size of the ship (pin in this case) but the motion of the ocean. In my opinion, you'd be better off playing with a house cue than many of the available low-cost production cues.

So you know plenty about the structure of pins (I'm not being sarcastic).

Lessons can be helpful, but it's extremely important not to feel like you're "on the clock". Tony can certainly improve your game, but see if he's willing to work with you "by the session" or "by the day", and "NOT" by the hour.

You're very experienced and knowledgeable about lessons and the optimal learning environments (again no sarcasm).

Dennis is a great cuemaker but anyone who accuses him of being a great communicator is blowing smoke.

You imply that you have personal experience communicating (poorly) with a top-shelf cuemaker.

Kevin started this thread with the intention of explaining the delays. Why all the attacks on everyone who supports Kevin? Sure he made a mistake and he came on here and set the record straight.

I give him credit for that and absolutely none to the handful of bashers who would probably have a hard time changing a slide on tip.

The record was not set straight. He is in the exact same position as before, continuing to ignore those requesting communication, refunds, and progress reports

It's not like Kevin was holding a gun on any of these guys when he collected their deposit.

There can always be potential delays in cue building, and the worst thing you can do is rush a cuemaker. Proper cue building is a VERY time intensive process and rushing this process is not advisable if you desire a superior product.

We should all be thankful Kevin is taking his time and not just cranking out crap like the chinese sweatshops.

He wouldn't start building a cue without a deposit so in effect they had to pay a deposit or pay in full. While this isn't holding a gun to their heads it definitely is a pre-requisite. I had to pay in full for both of my cues. Proper cue building involves reducing occurrences that delay production BTW. Proper cue building means you have less chance of having to start over in later stages. So again you show knowledge of the cue making process and how time-intensive it is. You seem to know quite a bit (no sarcasm there either)

Perfection takes time!

The people suggesting that you start building cues without a deposit are living in fantasy land and don't have a clue how the cue making business works. If Kevin started taking orders and building cues without first getting a deposit, it would create a hardship for his business.

Many cuemakers take a small deposit (up to 50% in some cases) so you're definitely on track with the gist of your post. Many cuemakers also manage or prefer to take no deposit. Taking payment in full is extremely rare and I had never heard of it before I ordered my cues.

Southwest cues are fabulous examples of cue building. But as far as hit and playability, they are far overrated. Contact Scott Sherbine and inquire about the $305 basic linen wrapped cue. Four words; awesome hit, awesome price!

So in this post you applaud the construction, but indicate the hit and playability are easily duplicated or surpassed by a $305 cue from Scott Sherbine

Jerry Franklin was a cuemaking genius highly skilled in all aspects of his craft; from wood selection to finishing. I've owned several cues from each era and for me there is no substitution for the masterpieces crafted during the Franklin period.

The Southwest cues of today are second to none. The cues are actually built in a shop inside the garage at the Franklin residence. Jerry had assistants as does Laurie who does an awesome job running the business.

Jerry Frankin is among the top cuemakers of all time. His name will go down in history with the likes of George Balabushka and Gus Szamboti. And the hard cold truth is, you can't pass along cuemaking genius.

Yet in the above two posts you express that they are second to none (which is a generalized statement, so it would include hit/playability) using phrases like "no substitution", "second to none", and "masterpieces".

It's probably just me. :rolleyes:

I think you're onto something here (there's the sarcasm). I don't know why but your recent posts just seem to bug the crap out of me.

catscradle
05-02-2008, 07:58 AM
...



Originally Posted by Roadkill
Southwest cues are fabulous examples of cue building. But as far as hit and playability, they are far overrated. Contact Scott Sherbine and inquire about the $305 basic linen wrapped cue. Four words; awesome hit, awesome price!



So in this post you applaud the construction, but indicate the hit and playability are easily duplicated or surpassed by a $305 cue from Scott Sherbine
...

I saw Roadkill's post yesterday and last night grabbed my Sherbine off the wall and played with it for a while. It is exactly the one he describes. I have hit with only a few SWs in my life, but the way the Sherbine hit is not reminescent of the SWs I've hit with. BTW, Scot's website indicates that cue is no longer made or available.
JMHO.

JB Cases
05-02-2008, 08:58 AM
It's so good to know that we all have someone available like you who has all the answers. You are truly a legend in your own mind.

Why yes I am thanks. Glad that you are being helped. Anytime Roadkill. Just ask and I will provide you with the answer. :)

Roadkill
05-02-2008, 06:16 PM
I saw Roadkill's post yesterday and last night grabbed my Sherbine off the wall and played with it for a while. It is exactly the one he describes. I have hit with only a few SWs in my life, but the way the Sherbine hit is not reminescent of the SWs I've hit with. BTW, Scot's website indicates that cue is no longer made or available.
JMHO.

Southwest cues are highly overrated in terms of playability. The Scott Sherbine plays better. IMO.

Roadkill
05-02-2008, 06:18 PM
Why yes I am thanks. Glad that you are being helped. Anytime Roadkill. Just ask and I will provide you with the answer. :)

Sorry...meant to say, "legend in your own time". I've been a big fan of your work since your instroke days. The Jack Justis clone in the picture looks sweet.

Roadkill
05-02-2008, 06:26 PM
I don't know why but your recent posts just seem to bug the crap out of me.

Thanks for the summary. Read my quotes and you may learn something.

JB Cases
05-02-2008, 06:47 PM
Sorry...meant to say, "legend in your own time". I've been a big fan of your work since your instroke days. The Jack Justis clone in the picture looks sweet.

It did turn out nice. The guy who bought it really likes it too as do all of his friends at Hardtimes who have seen it. It's not a clone though as you know a clone is an exact duplicate of something else.

So genetically speaking, A new SouthWest is closer to a clone of the SouthWest cues made when Jerry was living, i.e. practically no difference.

A John Barton case such as this one has a similar style as a Justis and Flowers but is in fact a very different case, genetically speaking.

I prefer "legend in my own mind" :D I won't be a legend in my time for a while yet, still a lot of ground to cover and things to do.

I am gonna close my involvement in this thread by saying I miss Jerry Franklin. Although I only met him a few times he took the time to talk to me in depth about cue making, life, design, and the industry. I was young then and his words have stayed with me for all that time.

Knowing what he said to me and knowing Laurie's dedication to Jerry's legacy it does pain me to hear folks say that SouthWest's made after Jerry's death are not on par with those made while he was living.

It's true that the cues made now will never have been inspected by Jerry or worked on in any fashion by Jerry. But they are all in existence because of Jerry Franklin and the shop he set up. My own dream has been to have a shop like SouthWests that can make jam up cases without me. To do that I have to do what Jerry did which is to infuse my case making DNA into the shop and the people I have so that when I am gone they can carry on. Jerry did that and that is why all Southwests are always "Franklin Era" cues.