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View Full Version : Did Peach FOUL?


BlowFish
05-01-2008, 12:27 AM
I've been watching this finals over and over and one thing I noticed, Peach slammed his cue on the table right after sinking the 9-Ball. Whitey was still rolling. Is that a FOUL?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzR8KmetzA0

BlowFish
05-01-2008, 12:29 AM
The said event happened at 7:40 on the linked video.

JoeyInCali
05-01-2008, 12:31 AM
Only if it interfered with the cueball.

jay helfert
05-01-2008, 12:31 AM
I've been watching this finals over and over and one thing I noticed, Peach slammed his cue on the table right after sinking the 9-Ball. Whitey was still rolling. Is that a FOUL?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzR8KmetzA0

Nope! The cue ball was moving slowly and not heading toward a pocket. Nice try though. :)

BlowFish
05-01-2008, 01:08 AM
Isn't it a foul to put you cue on the table and let go of it?

Fast Lenny
05-01-2008, 01:11 AM
Isn't it a foul to put you cue on the table and let go of it?
Im not sure if it is in this format or situation since it wasnt layed down on the table preshot,but crazier things can happen in this sport. :cool:

no-sho
05-01-2008, 01:22 AM
Isn't it a foul to put you cue on the table and let go of it?

No, it's not a foul to lay your cue on the table! It's a foul to use your cue as an aiming device and and lay your cue on the table. End of story
no-sho

mullyman
05-01-2008, 03:44 AM
I wouldn't call that a foul but it sure was close. He didn't even think about dropping that cue down like that. Had the CB hit the tip on the way around there it would have been a foul. Don't know if they would have called it though.
MULLY

Bigjohn
05-01-2008, 06:00 AM
I've been watching this finals over and over and one thing I noticed, Peach slammed his cue on the table right after sinking the 9-Ball. Whitey was still rolling. Is that a FOUL?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzR8KmetzA0

I've always thought that abuse of any kind of a table during tournament play... should be a foul. JMO

Patrick Johnson
05-01-2008, 06:13 AM
BlowFish
I've been watching this finals over and over and one thing I noticed, Peach slammed his cue on the table right after sinking the 9-Ball. Whitey was still rolling. Is that a FOUL?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzR8KmetzA0


I've always thought that abuse of any kind of a table during tournament play... should be a foul. JMO

He didn't slam it; he dropped it from a few inches.

pj
chgo

WesleyW
05-01-2008, 06:35 AM
I've always thought that abuse of any kind of a table during tournament play... should be a foul. JMO

You would been surprise how many fouls there will be made by this rule :D

But how can you call this an abuse. Jumping the CB will do more damage to the table than Peach did.

And ofcourse, if you shoot a ball, you are abusing the cloth :mad:

Andrew Manning
05-01-2008, 07:10 AM
Yeah, I'd say no foul, but if the CB had hit the tip of the cue (and it didn't miss by much), then that would be a foul. The spirit of laying the cue down on the table and letting go rule is about using it as an aiming device, i.e. laying it down and walking around the table to see the angle off the rail or what have you. I don't think a reasonable ref would apply it to this situation.

-Andrew

Bigjohn
05-01-2008, 07:30 AM
You would been surprise how many fouls there will be made by this rule :D

But how can you call this an abuse. Jumping the CB will do more damage to the table than Peach did.

And ofcourse, if you shoot a ball, you are abusing the cloth :mad:

I didn't see it but if you read the post... it says he "slammed" his cue and "slamming" IMO is abuse and should be a foul.

WesleyW
05-01-2008, 07:35 AM
I didn't see it but if you read the post... it says he "slammed" his cue and "slamming" IMO is abuse and should be a foul.

He didn't slammed it. It was quite soft. As I mention before, jumping with the CB will damage the table a lot more. I would say, he is only dropping his cue from 5cm height.

jay helfert
05-01-2008, 08:31 AM
Who wouldn't get a little excited when they had just won the World Championship? I'm just glad that the cue ball DIDN'T hit the tip of his cue. If it had and the ref called a foul, what a controversy that would have started! The sh-t would really have hit the fan then! :eek:

IMO still no foul, but still who knows what would have happened. I'm glad it ended the way it did.

JoeyA
05-01-2008, 08:36 AM
No, it's not a foul to lay your cue on the table! It's a foul to use your cue as an aiming device and and lay your cue on the table. End of story
no-sho

You are correct in what you say but just to split hairs, you can lay your cue on the table as long as your hand remains in contact with it, if I am not mistaken.

JoeyA (splittin' hairs)

Bob Jewett
05-01-2008, 10:10 AM
... Is that a FOUL? ..
In order for it to be a foul, it has to violate a rule. Which rule do you think it violated? For your convenience, here is a list of fouls:

6.1 Cue Ball Scratch or off the Table
6.2 Wrong Ball First
6.3 No Rail after Contact
6.4 No Foot on Floor
6.5 Ball Driven off the Table
6.6 Touched Ball
6.7 Double Hit / Frozen Balls
6.8 Push Shot
6.9 Balls Still Moving
6.10 Bad Cue Ball Placement
6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String
6.12 Cue Stick on the Table
6.13 Playing out of Turn
6.14 Three Consecutive Fouls
6.15 Slow Play
6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct

For details -- which in this case are important -- see:
http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_fouls

no-sho
05-01-2008, 10:28 AM
You are correct in what you say but just to split hairs, you can lay your cue on the table as long as your hand remains in contact with it, if I am not mistaken.

JoeyA (splittin' hairs)

My answer was in direct response to this question: I didn't believe it as necessary to add in my response about keeping your hand on the cue, just to split hairs.lol My bad English!!!

Originally Posted by BlowFish
Isn't it a foul to put you cue on the table and let go of it?

Originally Posted by no-sho
No, it's not a foul to lay your cue on the table! It's a foul to use your cue as an aiming device and and lay your cue on the table. End of story
no-sho

Bob Jewett
05-01-2008, 10:31 AM
Who wouldn't get a little excited when they had just won the World Championship? ...
I've seen players dance on the table after winning a championship. I don't think anyone called a foul on them.

Jude Rosenstock
05-01-2008, 10:33 AM
Wow, if you think this might be a foul, dude you better get to work. There are about 4 trillion archived games where the player leans up against the table while shooting the 9-ball. You might want to investigate those, too.

av84fun
05-01-2008, 10:39 AM
You are correct in what you say but just to split hairs, you can lay your cue on the table as long as your hand remains in contact with it, if I am not mistaken.

JoeyA (splittin' hairs)

I know of no general rule specifically requiring a hand to remain on the cue when it might be placed on the table surface.

The rule only kicks in if the cue is being used as a measruing device.

Under the unsportsmanlike conduct rule, equipment must be used "appropriately." (WSRs) and only for the equipment's "intended purpose." (BCA)

However...and this is REALLY hair-splitting...since the shot was still in progress, it is not the intended purpose nor is it "appropriate" (arguably) to put the cue down on the table.

As far as appropriate use is concerned, for example, I would imagine that most refs would call a foul under the above rule, if the player swapped ends with his cue and pocketed a jawed 9 ball with the butt end.

But it is not splitting hairs IMHO to suggest that it was a REALLY bad idea on Peach's part to place the cue on the table with the shot still in progress.

Regards,
Jim

av84fun
05-01-2008, 10:47 AM
I've seen players dance on the table after winning a championship. I don't think anyone called a foul on them.

Well, the match was over at that point. If the player danced on the table with the CB still rolling but not in the direction of a pocket, what rule would that violate other than unsportsmanlike conduct?

(-:

WesleyW
05-01-2008, 10:50 AM
Who wouldn't get a little excited when they had just won the World Championship? I'm just glad that the cue ball DIDN'T hit the tip of his cue. If it had and the ref called a foul, what a controversy that would have started! The sh-t would really have hit the fan then! :eek:

IMO still no foul, but still who knows what would have happened. I'm glad it ended the way it did.

If it's serious, and someone did let his tip hitting the CB, and there was no possible way that the CB will scratch. I would respot the 9-ball and hit the 9-ball a front of the pocket and let him win for real.

On youtube, there is a video Alex Pagulayan vs Reyes (?). If I'm not wrong, Reyes missed the 9-ball because he was showing off. So Alex also showed off, by turning his head away before the final stroke, and give the rack back to Reyes.

WesleyW
05-01-2008, 10:51 AM
Well, the match was over at that point. If the player danced on the table with the CB still rolling but not in the direction of a pocket, what rule would that violate other than unsportsmanlike conduct?

(-:

By shaking the table, so the CB will not scratch.

av84fun
05-01-2008, 11:17 AM
By shaking the table, so the CB will not scratch.

No, I said that the CB was not heading toward a pocket so it would not have scratched.

Regards,
Jim

BVal
05-01-2008, 12:03 PM
If it's serious, and someone did let his tip hitting the CB, and there was no possible way that the CB will scratch. I would respot the 9-ball and hit the 9-ball a front of the pocket and let him win for real.

On youtube, there is a video Alex Pagulayan vs Reyes (?). If I'm not wrong, Reyes missed the 9-ball because he was showing off. So Alex also showed off, by turning his head away before the final stroke, and give the rack back to Reyes.
That was against Bustamante :)

BVal

BRKNRUN
05-01-2008, 12:34 PM
Does anyone actually seriously think what he did was a foul???

Even if it was "technically" some sort of foul..there is no way I am going to call it a foul.

I think a precurser to the first rule in all rule books should read.

"Use common sense..then refer to the following rules only if still needed"

...or something along those lines....

av84fun
05-01-2008, 12:54 PM
If it's serious, and someone did let his tip hitting the CB, and there was no possible way that the CB will scratch. I would respot the 9-ball and hit the 9-ball a front of the pocket and let him win for real.

On youtube, there is a video Alex Pagulayan vs Reyes (?). If I'm not wrong, Reyes missed the 9-ball because he was showing off. So Alex also showed off, by turning his head away before the final stroke, and give the rack back to Reyes.

As has been pointed out it was Django, not Efren and you don't remember the incident correctly.

Django did not "show off" on the 9 ball because he never had a shot at it.

In fact, he broke dry and Alex played a brilliant, safety to which Django responed with an even more brilliant 2 rail kick to hole the 1 which was frozen to the rail.

But he left himself hooked and had to jump one into the side...and got hooked AGAIN and had to kick but left Alex a shot.

Alex ran out to the 9 and then did his stunt. I REALLY like and admire Alex who is a great champion with a super sense of humor but personally, I think his looking away was a bush league thing to do at best, and probably should have been a foul for unsportsmanlike conduct which would have given Busta BIH and a 5-6 score.

I know Alex didn't MEAN it, but I thought looking away like that was disrespectful. It said "I can beat you without looking."

JMHO.

Jim

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bNKGBozx0VQ

Roy Steffensen
05-01-2008, 12:58 PM
As has been pointed out it was Django, not Efren and you don't remember the incident correctly.

Django did not "show off" on the 9 ball because he never had a shot at it.

In fact, he broke dry and Alex played a brilliant, safety to which Django responed with an even more brilliant 2 rail kick to hole the 1 which was frozen to the rail.

But he left himself hooked and had to jump one into the side...and got hooked AGAIN and had to kick but left Alex a shot.

Alex ran out to the 9 and then did his stunt. I REALLY like and admire Alex who is a great champion with a super sense of humor but personally, I think his looking away was a bush league thing to do at best, and probably should have been a foul for unsportsmanlike conduct which would have given Busta BIH and a 5-6 score.

I know Alex didn't MEAN it, but I thought looking away like that was disrespectful. It said "I can beat you without looking."

JMHO.

Jim

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bNKGBozx0VQ

Thanks for the link!!

av84fun
05-01-2008, 01:06 PM
Does anyone actually seriously think what he did was a foul???

Even if it was "technically" some sort of foul..there is no way I am going to call it a foul.

I think a precurser to the first rule in all rule books should read.

"Use common sense..then refer to the following rules only if still needed"

...or something along those lines....

Ken, I understand where you are coming from but the problem is that there is nothing common about common sense.

Reasonable people respond very differently to given incidents.

A perfect rule set (which probably doesn't exist) would completely eliminate "judgment calls."

While that is a vacant hope, rule makers should do their best to eliminate judgment calls as much as possible precisely because people have very different judgments about a lot of things and it would be unfair for 2 refs in the same event to call and not call fouls given identical incidents in two different matches.

Regards,
Jim

WesleyW
05-01-2008, 01:13 PM
As has been pointed out it was Django, not Efren and you don't remember the incident correctly.

Django did not "show off" on the 9 ball because he never had a shot at it.

In fact, he broke dry and Alex played a brilliant, safety to which Django responed with an even more brilliant 2 rail kick to hole the 1 which was frozen to the rail.

But he left himself hooked and had to jump one into the side...and got hooked AGAIN and had to kick but left Alex a shot.

Alex ran out to the 9 and then did his stunt. I REALLY like and admire Alex who is a great champion with a super sense of humor but personally, I think his looking away was a bush league thing to do at best, and probably should have been a foul for unsportsmanlike conduct which would have given Busta BIH and a 5-6 score.

I know Alex didn't MEAN it, but I thought looking away like that was disrespectful. It said "I can beat you without looking."

JMHO.

Jim

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bNKGBozx0VQ

I've seen to much videos so I don't remember everything. I knew it was efren or busty. I used youtube to search and found some video against efren, so I thought it was him, my mistake. That's why I put a questionmark after the name 'efren'. But that's still a nice video to been seen once more :D .

tommy84
05-01-2008, 04:47 PM
The "equipment on table foul" was dropped a few years back.
You can place the cue and/or rest on the table at any time now.
At least that's the case in Germany and normally the german association DBU adopts the WPA rules.

I've passed my referee test in January, so that should be the actual rules

Slasher
05-01-2008, 05:46 PM
Check out half of the break shots where the cue tip is dug into the cloth and bent so that most of the shaft is on the bed while all the balls are still in motion. This also occurs on a lot of draw shots where the tip is in contact while the balls are moving, so what's the difference if it is part or all of the cue ??
Peach's act was not a foul.

BlowFish
05-01-2008, 06:32 PM
The "equipment on table foul" was dropped a few years back.
You can place the cue and/or rest on the table at any time now.
At least that's the case in Germany and normally the german association DBU adopts the WPA rules.

I've passed my referee test in January, so that should be the actual rules

I was thinking of this rule, now it is clear to me. Thanx everyone who chimed in. All in good discussion. No need to be abrasive.

av84fun
05-01-2008, 06:37 PM
Check out half of the break shots where the cue tip is dug into the cloth and bent so that most of the shaft is on the bed while all the balls are still in motion. This also occurs on a lot of draw shots where the tip is in contact while the balls are moving, so what's the difference if it is part or all of the cue ??
Peach's act was not a foul.

That has never been a foul since the cue is being used for its normal purpose.

Regards,
Jim

Bob Jewett
05-01-2008, 06:44 PM
The "equipment on table foul" was dropped a few years back.
You can place the cue and/or rest on the table at any time now.
At least that's the case in Germany and normally the german association DBU adopts the WPA rules. ...
You may want to refer to rule 6.12 of the current World Rules. They are available on the WPA website. www.wpa-pool.com

Personally, I tried very hard to get the stick-on-the-table-to-aim rule removed, but was outvoted by the WPA Rules Revision Committee. I think that a player gets no unfair benefit from placing the stick on the table. The argument was made that some players place the stick on the table for each shot, which takes a lot of time. If a player's aiming method takes too long, that is covered by another rule.

Peer
05-01-2008, 07:11 PM
On youtube, there is a video Alex Pagulayan vs Reyes (?). If I'm not wrong, Reyes missed the 9-ball because he was showing off. So Alex also showed off, by turning his head away before the final stroke, and give the rack back to Reyes.

It was actually against Bustamante:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-sUp_jRc3k

-- peer

powerlineman80
05-01-2008, 10:03 PM
I say no, unless it hit the stick which it didnt do.

tommy84
05-02-2008, 05:31 AM
You may want to refer to rule 6.12 of the current World Rules. They are available on the WPA website. www.wpa-pool.com

Personally, I tried very hard to get the stick-on-the-table-to-aim rule removed, but was outvoted by the WPA Rules Revision Committee. I think that a player gets no unfair benefit from placing the stick on the table. The argument was made that some players place the stick on the table for each shot, which takes a lot of time. If a player's aiming method takes too long, that is covered by another rule.
This rule refers to using the cuestick as an aiming mehtod.
I was talking about simply place the cuestick on the table without any intention of "aiming"
May be you want to get back to your chair and wipe your hands clean or what ever and you simply leave the stick on the table
I also wonder, why 6.12 is only about the cuestick and not the rest, which probably led to the removal of this rule in Germany

Bob Jewett
05-02-2008, 10:26 AM
... I was talking about simply place the cue stick on the table without any intention of "aiming" ...
This should certainly not be foul. One problem with the "keep a hand on the stick when aiming" rule is that some obnoxious rules abusers will try to claim there is an aiming foul when the player is just tying his shoelace.