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View Full Version : The trials and tribulations of playing cheap sets


hejests
05-01-2008, 07:21 AM
I'm not much of a gambler but I do like playing shortish races (usually 9-ball races to 5 or 7) for $20s. It's enough to keep me interested and motivated but not too much that it becomes about the money rather than the playing (for me). It usually turns into 3 or 4 hours of back to back sets.

Last night, I'm playing a fellow that I play every so often. Lets just say I have to pay close attention to the score when we play (once a few weeks ago, it was 3-1 when I went to the washroom and miraculously 3-2 when I got back. That'll teach me to have coffee while i shoot). Anyhow, after a few hours of play last night, I'm up 3 sets ($60) and we're playing a last set for $40.

It's hill-hill, and he dogs the 6. That leaves me with a long cut shot on the 6 where I have to bridge over the 8. The 6 is only about a foot and half from the pocket so it's not bad, but I do need to go three rails for shape on the 7. I shoot, the 6 goes down and I pull off decent shape on the 7. I'm a happy camper and then...

BAM he calls a foul on me? Foul what foul? You moved the 8 with your hand. No I didn't. You moved the 8. No really I didn't. (To the guy watching our match) Did you see me move the 8? No I didn't see it move. As we're back and forthing about this foul that never happened (he wants ball in hand and I don't want to give it to him)...

He takes a few balls out of the pockets and starts shooting them (what is he doing, practicing on the game table in the middle of the game????). I'm thinking you've got to be kidding me. Thats a forfeit right there anyhow, which of course I tried explaining (to no avail). So I gave him the option, we can shoot this last game over, and I'll even give you the break (which was mine initially) OR we're done... and so... we were done.

I'm guessing he didn't like his changes at hill-hill... seems like a lot of trouble to save yourself $40. There I've vented.. I feel better.

Black-Balled
05-01-2008, 07:27 AM
.... There I've vented.. I feel better.
Yeah, what can you do? Fistfight?:confused: ;) :D

Andrew Manning
05-01-2008, 07:29 AM
I'm guessing he didn't like his chances at hill-hill... seems like a lot of trouble to save yourself $40.

Yeah, he pulled a move to get out of his bet when it looked like he was going to lose. $40 should not be enough to make somebody's honesty and decency disappear like that; I'm guessing he didn't have any to start with. Tell others about it, so they won't gamble with him. That's a fitting punishment.

-Andrew

Ed Simmons
05-01-2008, 07:29 AM
That guy would go on my list of "Cheaters who I will never gamble with again". (Taht list is pretty short, most guys who play cheap sets are honest enough).
Also if I were ever to meet him in a tournament, I would make sure to watch him like a hawk.

Bigtruck
05-01-2008, 08:10 AM
I'm not much of a gambler but I do like playing shortish races (usually 9-ball races to 5 or 7) for $20s. It's enough to keep me interested and motivated but not too much that it becomes about the money rather than the playing (for me). It usually turns into 3 or 4 hours of back to back sets.

Last night, I'm playing a fellow that I play every so often. Lets just say I have to pay close attention to the score when we play (once a few weeks ago, it was 3-1 when I went to the washroom and miraculously 3-2 when I got back. That'll teach me to have coffee while i shoot). Anyhow, after a few hours of play last night, I'm up 3 sets ($60) and we're playing a last set for $40.

It's hill-hill, and he dogs the 6. That leaves me with a long cut shot on the 6 where I have to bridge over the 8. The 6 is only about a foot and half from the pocket so it's not bad, but I do need to go three rails for shape on the 7. I shoot, the 6 goes down and I pull off decent shape on the 7. I'm a happy camper and then...

BAM he calls a foul on me? Foul what foul? You moved the 8 with your hand. No I didn't. You moved the 8. No really I didn't. (To the guy watching our match) Did you see me move the 8? No I didn't see it move. As we're back and forthing about this foul that never happened (he wants ball in hand and I don't want to give it to him)...

He takes a few balls out of the pockets and starts shooting them (what is he doing, practicing on the game table in the middle of the game????). I'm thinking you've got to be kidding me. Thats a forfeit right there anyhow, which of course I tried explaining (to no avail). So I gave him the option, we can shoot this last game over, and I'll even give you the break (which was mine initially) OR we're done... and so... we were done.

I'm guessing he didn't like his changes at hill-hill... seems like a lot of trouble to save yourself $40. There I've vented.. I feel better.

Who plays all ball fouls except pros? Especially for cheap sets! Sound like you got a peak at his character for Cheap. Did he pay the $60 you already won? Or did you get stiffed for the full Benny?

Ray

CocoboloCowboy
05-01-2008, 08:12 AM
I do not consider 20 Bucks Cheap.

mullyman
05-01-2008, 08:15 AM
Who plays all ball fouls except pros? Especially for cheap sets! Sound like you got a peak at his character for Cheap. Did he pay the $60 you already won? Or did you get stiffed for the full Benny?

Ray


It should be all ball fouls for everyone. I'm not saying this person moved the 8. I believe he didn't. My comment is on rules. If you're an upper level player you should have enough control over yourself that you don't go knocking balls around the table with the edge of your stick etc...
MULLY
1 billion percent against CB only foul rule

hejests
05-01-2008, 08:15 AM
Who plays all ball fouls except pros? Especially for cheap sets! Sound like you got a peak at his character for Cheap. Did he pay the $60 you already won? Or did you get stiffed for the full Benny?

Ray
Exactly, who plays all ball fouls for cheap sets... (i guess this would make it all ball no foul). I got the $60, so I didn't really get stiffed, just very annoyed.

poolplayer2093
05-01-2008, 08:43 AM
unless you talked about the rulls being all ball fouls it wasn't a foul. he can move it back or leave it there but it would still be your shot.

Travis Bickle
05-01-2008, 08:45 AM
At least you didn't give the schmuck BIH. A couple of years ago at a tourney I ran into some crap like that and I'm still kicking myself that I let him get over!

Might not have if I hadn't already gotten into a scrap with somebody in an earlier match. Looking back, I wish I had not called the earlier opponent for a concession (no matter how testy that match had gotten, and it was at the open hostility stage) when he threw his stick on the table after dogging a 9 that made it hill-hill. Better to win or lose on the table.

Flex
05-01-2008, 08:49 AM
I'm not much of a gambler but I do like playing shortish races (usually 9-ball races to 5 or 7) for $20s. It's enough to keep me interested and motivated but not too much that it becomes about the money rather than the playing (for me). It usually turns into 3 or 4 hours of back to back sets.

Last night, I'm playing a fellow that I play every so often. Lets just say I have to pay close attention to the score when we play (once a few weeks ago, it was 3-1 when I went to the washroom and miraculously 3-2 when I got back. That'll teach me to have coffee while i shoot). Anyhow, after a few hours of play last night, I'm up 3 sets ($60) and we're playing a last set for $40.

It's hill-hill, and he dogs the 6. That leaves me with a long cut shot on the 6 where I have to bridge over the 8. The 6 is only about a foot and half from the pocket so it's not bad, but I do need to go three rails for shape on the 7. I shoot, the 6 goes down and I pull off decent shape on the 7. I'm a happy camper and then...

BAM he calls a foul on me? Foul what foul? You moved the 8 with your hand. No I didn't. You moved the 8. No really I didn't. (To the guy watching our match) Did you see me move the 8? No I didn't see it move. As we're back and forthing about this foul that never happened (he wants ball in hand and I don't want to give it to him)...

He takes a few balls out of the pockets and starts shooting them (what is he doing, practicing on the game table in the middle of the game????). I'm thinking you've got to be kidding me. Thats a forfeit right there anyhow, which of course I tried explaining (to no avail). So I gave him the option, we can shoot this last game over, and I'll even give you the break (which was mine initially) OR we're done... and so... we were done.

I'm guessing he didn't like his changes at hill-hill... seems like a lot of trouble to save yourself $40. There I've vented.. I feel better.

You, sir, were playing a jerk. I'd say, "Never again" to that fellow.

Flex

Flex
05-01-2008, 08:51 AM
Yeah, he pulled a move to get out of his bet when it looked like he was going to lose. $40 should not be enough to make somebody's honesty and decency disappear like that; I'm guessing he didn't have any to start with. Tell others about it, so they won't gamble with him. That's a fitting punishment.

-Andrew

Absolutely right. Tell everybody, but don't let him know you're doing it.

I've heard stories of people getting killed over a few dollars lost in a pool game.

Not worth it...

Flex

Bigtruck
05-01-2008, 08:57 AM
It should be all ball fouls for everyone. I'm not saying this person moved the 8. I believe he didn't. My comment is on rules. If you're an upper level player you should have enough control over yourself that you don't go knocking balls around the table with the edge of your stick etc...
MULLY
1 billion percent against CB only foul rule

However, I will play ANY rules as long as they are the same for both of us. Probably be a good topic for a thread.

I play primarily in Texas in mid-level events but I did play in the Joss Northeast Tour at the Turning Stone Casino and Mike Zuglan explained all ball fouls (modified). If you move a ball with you hand or shaft by accident, you can stop, let your opponent know and move the ball back with no penalty. If you move a ball by accident and go ahead and shoot, it's a foul. He explained this up-front at the players meeting.

Rules should be discussed ahead of playing ANY match. Doing so will eliminate most arguments. The weasel Hejest played probably would've invented some other excuse not to pay.

Dōmo arigatō,

Ray

mullyman
05-01-2008, 09:12 AM
The weasel Hejest played probably would've invented some other excuse not to pay.

Dōmo arigatō,

Ray


Oh yeah, the guy he played is the type of person that I try to avoid in a pool room. I won't even associate with people that act like that.
MULLY

stikapos
05-01-2008, 09:16 AM
All balls foul in a gambling game is kinda ridiculous. Ticky tack stuff if you ask me. I love the modified rules of the Joss tour, but I'd go further than that.....extending same to the cue ball. Only problem I see is this. Guy moves a ball. Notifies opponent, but opponent didn't see where. Guy moving the ball replaces to another, more favorable position. Opponent objects. Now, since the guy ultimately fouled, shouldn't the opponent have the right to replace the ball, regardless of whether he saw where is was or not ? How would the joss tour rules deal with this ?

tim

junksecret
05-01-2008, 09:24 AM
However, I will play ANY rules as long as they are the same for both of us. Probably be a good topic for a thread.

I play primarily in Texas in mid-level events but I did play in the Joss Northeast Tour at the Turning Stone Casino and Mike Zuglan explained all ball fouls (modified). If you move a ball with you hand or shaft by accident, you can stop, let your opponent know and move the ball back with no penalty. If you move a ball by accident and go ahead and shoot, it's a foul. He explained this up-front at the players meeting.

Rules should be discussed ahead of playing ANY match. Doing so will eliminate most arguments. The weasel Hejest played probably would've invented some other excuse not to pay.

Dōmo arigatō,



Ray

I've never seen it played this way, but as a previous poster stated and I agree, any rules are fair as long as everyone knows them before they start.

I do have a question about playing as you describe. I always played all ball fouls growing up but most often the object ball fouls were committed during the actual stroke which didn't allow for stopping, such as bridging over a ball and it moving on the stroke where you pull the trigger.

Playing as you were in the example above, I assume this would be a foul?

Joe

ForumGhost516
05-01-2008, 09:43 AM
I think its incredible that no one has mentioned the fact that he started picking up balls on the game table and started shooting them i would have been like fine you can have ball in hand but since you didnt shoot the cue ball first and you shot a ball that has already been sank now i get ball in hand. Sounds like this guy is a real character.

9 on the snap
05-01-2008, 11:20 AM
I gamble a fair bit, and I have never seen that. If it's the cueball it's a foul, but we just replace object balls, and move on. Maybe he didn't have the dough.

MBTaylor
05-01-2008, 11:25 AM
I'm not much of a gambler but I do like playing shortish races (usually 9-ball races to 5 or 7) for $20s. It's enough to keep me interested and motivated but not too much that it becomes about the money rather than the playing (for me). It usually turns into 3 or 4 hours of back to back sets.

Last night, I'm playing a fellow that I play every so often. Lets just say I have to pay close attention to the score when we play (once a few weeks ago, it was 3-1 when I went to the washroom and miraculously 3-2 when I got back. That'll teach me to have coffee while i shoot). Anyhow, after a few hours of play last night, I'm up 3 sets ($60) and we're playing a last set for $40.

It's hill-hill, and he dogs the 6. That leaves me with a long cut shot on the 6 where I have to bridge over the 8. The 6 is only about a foot and half from the pocket so it's not bad, but I do need to go three rails for shape on the 7. I shoot, the 6 goes down and I pull off decent shape on the 7. I'm a happy camper and then...

BAM he calls a foul on me? Foul what foul? You moved the 8 with your hand. No I didn't. You moved the 8. No really I didn't. (To the guy watching our match) Did you see me move the 8? No I didn't see it move. As we're back and forthing about this foul that never happened (he wants ball in hand and I don't want to give it to him)...

He takes a few balls out of the pockets and starts shooting them (what is he doing, practicing on the game table in the middle of the game????). I'm thinking you've got to be kidding me. Thats a forfeit right there anyhow, which of course I tried explaining (to no avail). So I gave him the option, we can shoot this last game over, and I'll even give you the break (which was mine initially) OR we're done... and so... we were done.

I'm guessing he didn't like his changes at hill-hill... seems like a lot of trouble to save yourself $40. There I've vented.. I feel better.

I would hazard a guess that stupid crap like that is what helps give pool such a bad image...... What a cheating bastard!!!!!!!!!!!

poolplayer2093
05-01-2008, 11:55 AM
I gamble a fair bit, and I have never seen that. If it's the cueball it's a foul, but we just replace object balls, and move on. Maybe he didn't have the dough.


same here..... all ball fouls are from what i understand mostly in tournaments. if you were playing all ball fouls it should have been stated before the game started, and if he wants to get real nitty about it you can say "you should have called someone to watch the hit" otherwise it's still your turn at the table.

as for picking up balls and practicing during a set that sounds more like some kind of league rule. once again that's one of the things that should have been talked about before the start of the set. i've seen plenty of gambling and if it's a while between turns at the table it's common to use the balls not in play to stay in stroke

hejests
05-01-2008, 12:06 PM
same here..... all ball fouls are from what i understand mostly in tournaments. if you were playing all ball fouls it should have been stated before the game started, and if he wants to get real nitty about it you can say "you should have called someone to watch the hit" otherwise it's still your turn at the table.

as for picking up balls and practicing during a set that sounds more like some kind of league rule. once again that's one of the things that should have been talked about before the start of the set. i've seen plenty of gambling and if it's a while between turns at the table it's common to use the balls not in play to stay in stroke
No, no league rule. It's not like he was practicing on another table. We're arguing the foul, there are still 3 object balls on the table, he takes some other balls out of the pocket and starts shooting them on the same table. (ie now there are 5 balls on the table). Strangest thing I've ever seen during a match. He didn't hit or move the 3 original balls, but still...

fanthom
05-01-2008, 12:16 PM
I'm not much of a gambler but I do like playing shortish races (usually 9-ball races to 5 or 7) for $20s. It's enough to keep me interested and motivated but not too much that it becomes about the money rather than the playing (for me). It usually turns into 3 or 4 hours of back to back sets.

Last night, I'm playing a fellow that I play every so often. Lets just say I have to pay close attention to the score when we play (once a few weeks ago, it was 3-1 when I went to the washroom and miraculously 3-2 when I got back. That'll teach me to have coffee while i shoot). Anyhow, after a few hours of play last night, I'm up 3 sets ($60) and we're playing a last set for $40.

It's hill-hill, and he dogs the 6. That leaves me with a long cut shot on the 6 where I have to bridge over the 8. The 6 is only about a foot and half from the pocket so it's not bad, but I do need to go three rails for shape on the 7. I shoot, the 6 goes down and I pull off decent shape on the 7. I'm a happy camper and then...

BAM he calls a foul on me? Foul what foul? You moved the 8 with your hand. No I didn't. You moved the 8. No really I didn't. (To the guy watching our match) Did you see me move the 8? No I didn't see it move. As we're back and forthing about this foul that never happened (he wants ball in hand and I don't want to give it to him)...

He takes a few balls out of the pockets and starts shooting them (what is he doing, practicing on the game table in the middle of the game????). I'm thinking you've got to be kidding me. Thats a forfeit right there anyhow, which of course I tried explaining (to no avail). So I gave him the option, we can shoot this last game over, and I'll even give you the break (which was mine initially) OR we're done... and so... we were done.

I'm guessing he didn't like his changes at hill-hill... seems like a lot of trouble to save yourself $40. There I've vented.. I feel better.

I would steer clear from this guy. Per your account of what happened above, there were tell tale signs that he was not about to lose by hook or by crook. Here they are:

1. The miraculous score of 3-2 from 3-1 after you came back from the bathroom, unless of course you both agreed that if it takes longer than 2 minutes, you're automatically penalized by 1 game :D .

2. He's down $60 (could be the only amount he had).

3. Calling a foul for a shot that he did not find questionable in the first place. He should have said something if he thinks there is a probability of you accidentally hitting the 8-ball.

4. Banging balls around while you're trying to resolve an issue (sign of being tense and trying to find a way out without paying)

ADVICE: Charge it to experience and make a mental note not to gamble with the guy ever. Make it known to everyone else and he'll fade out for sure. If you play him in any tournament, throw the book at him, watch every move and kick ass. The guy is the epitome of scum, loser, cheat and a deadbeat.

frankncali
05-01-2008, 01:40 PM
My 2 cents

Don't tell anyone and just let it go.

Afterall you might have touched the ball. Gotta to love the guilty until innocent situation here.

hang-the-9
05-01-2008, 01:45 PM
However, I will play ANY rules as long as they are the same for both of us. Probably be a good topic for a thread.

I play primarily in Texas in mid-level events but I did play in the Joss Northeast Tour at the Turning Stone Casino and Mike Zuglan explained all ball fouls (modified). If you move a ball with you hand or shaft by accident, you can stop, let your opponent know and move the ball back with no penalty. If you move a ball by accident and go ahead and shoot, it's a foul. He explained this up-front at the players meeting.

Rules should be discussed ahead of playing ANY match. Doing so will eliminate most arguments. The weasel Hejest played probably would've invented some other excuse not to pay.

Dōmo arigatō,

Ray

The "if you move a ball by mistake it's OK if you tell me" is cue-ball fouls only. All Ball fouls are called if you touch any balls.

uwate
05-01-2008, 02:07 PM
I posted this in another thread but this thread so reminds me of this moment in my life:


One time in the late 80s, I was in Ocala Florida hunting a game with the owner of a pool hall down there. Me and a buddy arrive only to see "Honest John" Ferber playing our designated mark some 1 pocket. John had underestimated the 1 pocket game of his opponent and was in a bad spot giving up too much weight. The bet was a race to 5 for $300 as I remember it, a good wager in the late 80s for Ocala Florida.

The score was something like 2-1 in games and John was down a few balls to nothing in the 4th game. His opponent slows kicks at a ball and doesnt hit a rail. Ferber yells "Thats a faaawwwlll" with his hick accent and walks over and picks up the cue ball. "What the hell do you think your doing?" His opponent says. "W'all it was a fawwwll and I gets ball in hand on a fawwwl raaht?" "Hell no you dont"

They argued back and forth until finally the guy Ferber was playing cracked his cue in anger and told John the game was over and to get the hell out.

Me and my buddy were stunned at this move. Ferber knew exactly that if he played stupid and cried FAWWWWWLL then it might just end this bad game.

tpdtom
05-01-2008, 02:29 PM
This isn't Europe, where they play all balls fouls. NOBODY plays those rules here, even in 14.1.

Unfortunately, you were playing with a creep. There's no way that you can ever play him again. Write it off and pick your opponents more carefully from now on.

Not long ago, I beat a better player in bar league. He had a temper tantrum, slapped a few balls around the table. Wanted to gamble. I said I would play him later at the poolroom. I never went there. I don't want his action. He and his brother are known for that and way worse. They fight, cheat, and move on the wire etc. whenever they like. They were reportedly losing a set for $600 one night and one brother took the $1200 off the light and pocketed it. Again, the other night, I ran out on both brothers in succession. As I bent down to shoot the game ball straight in the side pocket in the second game I realized that I was being sharked and I stood up without shooting. A loud argument had broken out between the bad brothers and my teammate, who was more than willing to give them a go. The next thing was a sucker punch, and I could feel it coming. I'm 20 years older and don't need that in my life. After 5 more minutes of bedlam I slowly walked out of the bar, technically forfeiting my final two games. The league operator later saw it my way and awarded me the games and the payback. The two brothers are no doubt still pissed. F*** them. Too bad. I don't want to even be around them.

Years of experience have taught me to avoid playing people like that. You can learn and benefit from this. Good luck...Tom

Bigtruck
05-01-2008, 03:13 PM
The "if you move a ball by mistake it's OK if you tell me" is cue-ball fouls only. All Ball fouls are called if you touch any balls.

Not at the Turning Stone Joss Northeast 9Ball Tour event.

Ray