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View Full Version : Should a buy be able to request a refund when the seller fails to perform as agreed


manwon
05-01-2008, 09:03 PM
Hello Az, should buyers be able to request a refund from a cue maker or seller of other merchandise if they fail to honor the agreement between the buyer and seller. This thread has a poll attached to it, please express your thoughts to this in answers to this thread. Now I know that all agreements on an Internet forum are verbal or backed up with emails whci can be altered. Due to this there appears to be a great deal of conjecture when problems occur. The buyer saids this and the seller says that and generally nothing is solved without a long drawn out verbal battle.

While thinking about this subject, I have come to the conclusion that it may be very beneficial to all to use a contract of agreement between both the buyer and seller. The seller could simply email the buyer a proposed agreement and the buyer could agree or propose a change. Once this was complete they could email a copy to each other stating that they fully agree to the above. This agreement could then be stored by a disinterested third party so no changes could be made later. Another solution would be that the buyer and sell each print a copy of the agreement sign it / date it, and either mail it or fax it to the other. This way legal documents outlining the agreement would be on file.

Is this worth the time, please respond to the poll and please add a post to this thread.

hoosier_cues
05-01-2008, 09:20 PM
I think you are correct. Cuemakers need to run there operations like any business. Verbal agreements only go so far when dealing with other peoples money. Especially when dealing with deposits.

ribdoner
05-01-2008, 09:33 PM
I've bought a few cues.

In two instances "issues" surfaced.

Once a deposit was involved and once I prepaid for two high end cues that were very close (2 weeks)to completion. After significant angst, man to man talk, telephone expense and 6 months I recv'd the cues.

Hence my current SIG....

Highly custom or personalized cues may require a deposit, depends on the relashonship between buyer and builder.

manwon
05-01-2008, 10:08 PM
I think you are correct. Cuemakers need to run there operations like any business. Verbal agreements only go so far when dealing with other peoples money. Especially when dealing with deposits.

thanks very much, I hope others read this

av84fun
05-01-2008, 10:44 PM
I didn't vote because you didn't include a critical option....There should be a written contract between the parties.

As the old saying goes...Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on ME.

Well I was fooled a LOT more than twice by the time I was out of my teens so I just don't do business with any private parties without a written agreement.

Re: custom cues, both the cue maker and the customer are at risk. I would imagine that the makers have been stiffed AT LEAST as often as the customer.

SO...the cue maker needs a substantial deposit. Unless it was a design that I thought would have wide appeal, I would want 50%.

On the other hand, the customer A) wants the cue without undue delay and B) it should meet specs in every way.

So, I would not buy a custom cue without what is called a Liquidated Damages contract that specified a drop dead date for delivery.

There should be a penalty clause of, say, 10% of the price of the cue for each month it is late....OR "liquidated damages" of a refund of, say 110% of the refund PLUS attorney fees if required for collection.

That would be a two way damages clause wherein the maker would be able to collect 110% of the agreed upon price plus attorney fees if the buyer does not pay the balance due at the time of delivery.

Of course, no self-respecting cue maker would agree to such terms which is why I would not order a custom cue. If I wanted one, I would buy one at a major tournament but only after I've hit some balls with the cue.

I guess I'm too cynical but this "we're both nice guys" way of doing business is just asking for trouble.

Regards,
Jim

powerlineman80
05-01-2008, 10:52 PM
Yes a refund should be given if the cuemaker fails to make a cue by a certain date if its PROMISED. If you promise 90 days, it should be done in 90 days. If you say 3-6 months and the buyer still gives a deposit, then he agrees it should take 3-6 months. Most cuemakers that are good will be able to sell the cue regardless if the buyer backs out or not. If the buyer does back out he loses the deposit IMO and the cuemaker and do with it how he wishes to. IMO if you are a cuemaker and dont want customers bothering you all the time then you shouldnt give a due date or promise a date. If a customer pays for the whole cue upfront then hell yea the cuemaker better make his suggested cue delivery date.

Thunderball
05-01-2008, 11:02 PM
Yes a refund should be given if the cuemaker fails to make a cue by a certain date if its PROMISED. If you promise 90 days, it should be done in 90 days. If you say 3-6 months and the buyer still gives a deposit, then he agrees it should take 3-6 months. Most cuemakers that are good will be able to sell the cue regardless if the buyer backs out or not. If the buyer does back out he loses the deposit IMO and the cuemaker and do with it how he wishes to. IMO if you are a cuemaker and dont want customers bothering you all the time then you shouldnt give a due date or promise a date. If a customer pays for the whole cue upfront then hell yea the cuemaker better make his suggested cue delivery date.

Just quoting the obvious here folks...just move along ...nothing new here...keep the traffic flowing.

manwon
05-02-2008, 12:07 AM
I didn't vote because you didn't include a critical option....There should be a written contract between the parties.

As the old saying goes...Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on ME.

Well I was fooled a LOT more than twice by the time I was out of my teens so I just don't do business with any private parties without a written agreement.

Re: custom cues, both the cue maker and the customer are at risk. I would imagine that the makers have been stiffed AT LEAST as often as the customer.

SO...the cue maker needs a substantial deposit. Unless it was a design that I thought would have wide appeal, I would want 50%.

On the other hand, the customer A) wants the cue without undue delay and B) it should meet specs in every way.

So, I would not buy a custom cue without what is called a Liquidated Damages contract that specified a drop dead date for delivery.

There should be a penalty clause of, say, 10% of the price of the cue for each month it is late....OR "liquidated damages" of a refund of, say 110% of the refund PLUS attorney fees if required for collection.

That would be a two way damages clause wherein the maker would be able to collect 110% of the agreed upon price plus attorney fees if the buyer does not pay the balance due at the time of delivery.

Of course, no self-respecting cue maker would agree to such terms which is why I would not order a custom cue. If I wanted one, I would buy one at a major tournament but only after I've hit some balls with the cue.

I guess I'm too cynical but this "we're both nice guys" way of doing business is just asking for trouble.

Regards,
Jim

Jim I agree with you completely, a contract is certainly a good idea like I said above. It's kinda like a door key, generally when an honest person finds a locked door they do not attempt to go any farther. However, the locked door will not keep a dishonest person out he will just kick the door in. But on the other hand, when things are left unattended and the option exists even honest people may not always do the right thing.;)

manwon
05-02-2008, 12:16 AM
Just quoting the obvious here folks...just move along ...nothing new here...keep the traffic flowing.

So please so don't let the door hit you on the way out!!!!!!!!!!!;) If you have nothing to add please don't contaminate this thread.:)

Have a nice day!!!!!!!!

Craig W. Rittel

JoeyInCali
05-02-2008, 12:19 AM
Wouldn't e-mail/pm's constitute contract?
"John I sent $100 via paypal for the bocote/b'eye we talked about "
"John I received your down, balance due upon completion is $150"
Besides is it worth the aggravation not refunding the money of an unhappy customer?
You wanna succeed in business? Make all customers your friends.

manwon
05-02-2008, 12:34 AM
Wouldn't e-mail/pm's constitute contract?
"John I sent $100 via paypal for the bocote/b'eye we talked about "
"John I received your down, balance due upon completion is $150"
Besides is it worth the aggravation not refunding the money of an unhappy customer?
You wanna succeed in business? Make all customers your friends.

The problem with emails and PM's alone is that when you hit reply just like in this thread is allows some one to edit what some else has said. By exchanging signed copies by mail or fax this could never happen.

JoeyInCali
05-02-2008, 12:37 AM
The problem with emails and PM's alone is that when you hit reply just like in this thread is allows some one to edit what some else has said. By exchanging signed copies by mail or fax this could never happen.
K.
Well, the pool world is a very small world.
You stiff someone, word gets out fast.

manwon
05-02-2008, 12:53 AM
K.
Well, the pool world is a very small world.
You stiff someone, word gets out fast.

That is for certain, and sometimes it can also be a very hard lesson to learn.

Have a good night Joey!!!!!!!

junksecret
05-02-2008, 01:19 AM
I do think buyers should get refunds if terms of the agreement aren't met by the seller and I think cue makers should be able to retain negotiated deposits if the buyer doesn't pay the balance on completion. That being said, very few of my cue transactions have a written agreement of any kind other than a description of the cue ordered and any deposit paid, at best.

I question any who say emails aren't binding because they can be "altered", I have seen everyone from "Bob" the child molester down the street to White House staffers find themselves indicted from emails.

In any event the method I have used successfully so far is one used in many buying situations...word of mouth, repeat customers and referrals. That is why I post raving about my experiences with Ernie buying Ginacues, so people will know what a positive experience it always is for me. I think there is a better chance of ME making a perfect Gina than of Ernie not fulfilling a promise.

It's also why I appreciate the negative comments when people are sorely disappointed by a seller. There are many transactions I wouldn't consider without a written agreement but for whatever reason I have never asked for one buying a cue from Ernie even though I have bought cars that cost less......:)

However, I have never given a deposit of more than 20% for ANY cue I have bought and I'm sure that is a factor...my comfort level would surely decrease as my exposure increased and if I paid it ALL up front you can bet I would want it "clearly defined" in writing.

Just my $.02 and overpriced at that

Joe

JimS
05-02-2008, 04:21 AM
I think it depends in large part to how egregious the cue makers acts are and a lot depends on the stage of production the cue is in, and whether the cue will be one that the cue maker can get his money out of or is it so specifically for that buyer only that the maker would be stuck.

I think we're talking written contract here.... unless dealing with a friend.. and maybe even then.. just in case. I made my deal with Steve Klapp with a handshake, eye contact and another friend standing there hearing it all. Good as written contract any day. Maybe better. There's nothing in the world more binding than discussing the details, coming to an agreement followed by a man to man handshake and eye contact..... imo.

ShootingArts
05-02-2008, 05:16 AM
I wish things were as simple as JimS posted. I have had people look me dead in the eye, smile, even sign a piece of paper, and commit to doing something they had no intention of doing. This cost me $15,000 out of pocket on one deal in the mid-eighties, real money not BS. That was my "college education" in finance.

If you want something real, pass letters back and forth with signatures. You can send a cue maker or anyone else two copies of an agreement along with a stamped self addressed envelope. Takes them two minutes to sign one and mail it back. The catch is that even with honest and reliable cue makers this may strike them as suspicious on your part and they may choose not to deal with you.

E-mails and facsimiles may indeed be meaningless since both people can produce their own versions. Remember fax is short for facsimile. A faxed signature used to be meaningless but now they are generally accepted. However, fax me your signature once and I can put it on every document I choose to put it on from now on. I was less than thrilled to learn UPS can and does do this sometimes. I had a package shipped signature required. It was close to four thousand dollars worth of merchandise in a smallish box. I didn't want it wet or received by the wrong person so I requested it be shipped signature required. My friendly neighborhood UPS driver "electronically signed my signature" and dropped it at my door anyway!! Had there been any problem they had my signature proving I had received the package in hand.

As for the poll, the answer is simple. The aggrieved party gets the opportunity to back out of the deal and gets the deposit. If a cue maker commits to 90 days and the cue isn't complete in 90 days the customer is entitled to a refund. No BS, a quick and courteous refund. Likewise, if the cue is ready in 90 days and the customer can't or won't pay for it, the cue maker is entitled to keep the deposit and the cue, no BS. Common sense dictates that both parties be a little flexible and if one party or the other needs an extra week or two it shouldn't be a deal breaker. However the wronged party should always be the one with the option if an agreement isn't followed to the letter, be it written or verbal.

Hu

CocoboloCowboy
05-02-2008, 06:07 AM
Hello Az, should buyers be able to request a refund from a cue maker or seller of other merchandise if they fail to honor the agreement between the buyer and seller. This thread has a poll attached to it, please express your thoughts to this in answers to this thread. Now I know that all agreements on an Internet forum are verbal or backed up with emails whci can be altered. Due to this there appears to be a great deal of conjecture when problems occur. The buyer saids this and the seller says that and generally nothing is solved without a long drawn out verbal battle.

While thinking about this subject, I have come to the conclusion that it may be very beneficial to all to use a contract of agreement between both the buyer and seller. The seller could simply email the buyer a proposed agreement and the buyer could agree or propose a change. Once this was complete they could email a copy to each other stating that they fully agree to the above. This agreement could then be stored by a disinterested third party so no changes could be made later. Another solution would be that the buyer and sell each print a copy of the agreement sign it / date it, and either mail it or fax it to the other. This way legal documents outlining the agreement would be on file.

Is this worth the time, please respond to the poll and please add a post to this thread.

I am all ears on this one, personally as seller I have always been willing to send a fund less shipping if I had an unhappy buyer.

Have never been asked for one as I always represented what I was selling O.K. I will assume.[http://www.geocities.com/cocobolocowboy/goodpost.gif

Hierovision
05-02-2008, 06:09 AM
You can definitely get away with PM's being a very solid piece of evidence as they are not editable in their original form (unless you can crack into the server and then the php for the forums). If the received PM differs from the quoted reply then it shows you attempted to change their words. Emails are the same unless you use outlook and are able to alter received emails and save them (Metadata shows when a file is altered though).

jasonlaus
05-02-2008, 06:31 AM
SEND A REFUND!!! If you're making a great cue somebody will buy it. If I was searing,szamboti or any of the other top makers I would pray that someone doesn't want their cue, then sell it on AZ or EBAY for market value. If you're not making a top quality cue maybe you should improve your product before taking more orders. IF you are, then you have no worries about being able to sell it. If the deadline has come & gone and buyer requests a refund SEND A REFUND.

Irish634
05-02-2008, 07:06 AM
The problem with emails and PM's alone is that when you hit reply just like in this thread is allows some one to edit what some else has said. By exchanging signed copies by mail or fax this could never happen.

If mail or fax isn't an option, perhaps a pdf could help. Documents can be converted for free (http://www.pdfonline.com/index.htm).

On the flip side, Say I have a cue ordered and a due date 30 days from now and the cue is near completion or completed. If I say "Hey I don't want that anymore I just want my money back."

Should I be entitled to my deposit back then?

ScottR
05-02-2008, 07:11 AM
If mail or fax isn't an option, perhaps a pdf could help. Documents can be converted for free (http://www.pdfonline.com/index.htm).

On the flip side, Say I have a cue ordered and a due date 30 days from now and the cue is near completion or completed. If I say "Hey I don't want that anymore I just want my money back."

Should I be entitled to my deposit back then?
No.........

TellsItLikeItIs
05-02-2008, 07:25 AM
I suspect youre attempting to make a point but knew the answer to that before asking.

How bout if your boss comes to you on payday and says "Hey I don't want to pay you for this weeks work you did".

I really dont mean to be rude but your (hypothetical) question is one that neednt be asked.

On the flip side, Say I have a cue ordered and a due date 30 days from now and the cue is near completion or completed. If I say "Hey I don't want that anymore I just want my money back."

Should I be entitled to my deposit back then?

masonh
05-02-2008, 08:41 AM
to me it is crazy to not give a refund.say you have a guy that is very pissed off and demading a refund.you tell him ,"no refunds".then he gets more pissed off and starts bad mouthing you around town.

then you make the cue and send it to a pissed off guy that is already bad mouthing you all over town.

do you think he is going to stop talking bad about you and fall in love with the cue?

wrong it won't happen.he has already committed to hating you and the cue,and he won't change his mind,he has too much pride.that means more bad mouthing,and the cuemaker's name goes down the toilet again.

masonh
05-02-2008, 08:45 AM
On the flip side, Say I have a cue ordered and a due date 30 days from now and the cue is near completion or completed. If I say "Hey I don't want that anymore I just want my money back."

Should I be entitled to my deposit back then?


no b/c the cuemaker has't broken the agreement yet.

if the cuemaker was an understanding guy he would probably give you the money back to help you out,but as fa as the contract goes he hasn't even broken it so why would you be entilted to your money back?

QMAKER
05-02-2008, 09:14 AM
Wouldn't e-mail/pm's constitute contract?
"John I sent $100 via paypal for the bocote/b'eye we talked about "
"John I received your down, balance due upon completion is $150"
Besides is it worth the aggravation not refunding the money of an unhappy customer?
You wanna succeed in business? Make all customers your friends.

Thanks Joey. You saved me some typing.

Bob Flynn
denalicues.com
International Cuemakers Assoc.

whitewolf
05-02-2008, 09:24 AM
Hello Az, should buyers be able to request a refund from a cue maker or seller of other merchandise if they fail to honor the agreement between the buyer and seller. This thread has a poll attached to it, please express your thoughts to this in answers to this thread. Now I know that all agreements on an Internet forum are verbal or backed up with emails whci can be altered. Due to this there appears to be a great deal of conjecture when problems occur. The buyer saids this and the seller says that and generally nothing is solved without a long drawn out verbal battle.

While thinking about this subject, I have come to the conclusion that it may be very beneficial to all to use a contract of agreement between both the buyer and seller. The seller could simply email the buyer a proposed agreement and the buyer could agree or propose a change. Once this was complete they could email a copy to each other stating that they fully agree to the above. This agreement could then be stored by a disinterested third party so no changes could be made later. Another solution would be that the buyer and sell each print a copy of the agreement sign it / date it, and either mail it or fax it to the other. This way legal documents outlining the agreement would be on file.

Is this worth the time, please respond to the poll and please add a post to this thread.

A separate legal contract is a major waste of time.

State in emails what you want, and if the seller agrees back in an email, you have a legal binding contract.

And, BTW, if you have to do this with a cuemaker, why in the hell have you chosen this guy in the first place?!!!!!!! Think about it.

Irish634
05-02-2008, 09:24 AM
I suspect youre attempting to make a point but knew the answer to that before asking.

How bout if your boss comes to you on payday and says "Hey I don't want to pay you for this weeks work you did".

I really dont mean to be rude but your (hypothetical) question is one that neednt be asked.

You aren't rude, but it was brought up for discussion purposes as there are many factors that go into it. I just wanted it to discuss is all. At one point or another, it would and does happen, so it's not all that hypothetical.

manwon
05-02-2008, 01:44 PM
If mail or fax isn't an option, perhaps a pdf could help. Documents can be converted for free (http://www.pdfonline.com/index.htm).

On the flip side, Say I have a cue ordered and a due date 30 days from now and the cue is near completion or completed. If I say "Hey I don't want that anymore I just want my money back."

Should I be entitled to my deposit back then?


On the flip side, Say I have a cue ordered and a due date 30 days from now and the cue is near completion or completed. If I say "Hey I don't want that anymore I just want my money back."

Should I be entitled to my deposit back then?[/QUOTE]

Hello Craig, I hope all is well!! The concept of this post was to attempt to find a middle ground where buyers and sellers have some protection in the event that a transaction is not completed in an advertised time frame.

If a seller and buyer agree concerning a time frame for the completion of a transaction and that date is passed and passed and passed, should a buyer be offered some protection, against loss of their deposit if one was offered.

Most transactions on this forum go off without a hitch, however, there is still a small percentage that become a PUBLIC Spectacle. Now by reading those, if anyone would like to take the time they all have a single thing in common. It all amounts to a failure of communication, a lack of agreement on the terms of the transaction, and sometimes, not all one of the parties is not being honest. However, in most cases a written form of agreement would solve more than 95% of the disputes, simple because mistaken facts would never play a role.

I personally agree with JIM S, that a hand shake and a smile are the way Men should do business with each other. The problem when dealing on the Internet though is you can not tell if the person on the other end of the transaction is truly a Man or a Women. Hell we have kids come here in the past and hijack a parents account and fail to complete transactions.

To the other poster who has said that buyers should never receive a refund, you must be a wealthy individual who has money to burn. However, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I hope you do not have to face a situation that this thread covers.

Thanks for everyones input, please keep it coming!!!!!!!

manwon
05-02-2008, 01:58 PM
A separate legal contract is a major waste of time.

State in emails what you want, and if the seller agrees back in an email, you have a legal binding contract.

And, BTW, if you have to do this with a cuemaker, why in the hell have you chosen this guy in the first place?!!!!!!! Think about it.



And, BTW, if you have to do this with a cuemaker, why in the hell have you chosen this guy in the first place?!!!!!!! Think about it.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree, but sometimes a persons nature can be VERY VERY deceptive and their nature stays hidden for awhile. But as we all know those who attempt to hide their true self always fail in time.!!!!;)

td873
05-02-2008, 03:25 PM
Hello Az, should buyers be able to request a refund from a cue maker or seller of other merchandise if they fail to honor the agreement between the buyer and seller. This thread has a poll attached to it, please express your thoughts to this in answers to this thread. Now I know that all agreements on an Internet forum are verbal or backed up with emails whci can be altered. Due to this there appears to be a great deal of conjecture when problems occur. The buyer saids this and the seller says that and generally nothing is solved without a long drawn out verbal battle.

Although posted with good intent, the poll is missing some critical information in order to fulfill its intended purpose. For example:

What do you mean by "fails to perform as agreed"? No product delivered at all after you paid the full amount?
No product delivered but you didn't even pay a deposit?
Product not exactly as described, but fully paid?
Product faulty, but only a deposit paid?
Product delivered late, but correct?
Custom product not exactly as intended, and fully paid?
Also, the poll makes it seem like only the buyer needs protecting. If the seller fails, the buyer is out time and maybe a deposit. BUT, if the buyer fails, then the cuemaker is out a sale, materials, and time which could be dedicated to other sales. Plus the cue might not be wanted by anyone else. For example, a buyer says "make me a cue" and the cuemaker does -> but the buyer then says "I didn't say that." Seems like the seller loses...

Nothing can stop a contract from being broken, written or oral. So, I guess the two real questions are: How much extra protection do you really think a written contract for the sale of a pool item will get you? And then, what would you do with it?

-td

td873
05-02-2008, 03:47 PM
... If you promise 90 days, it should be done in 90 days...

...If a customer pays for the whole cue upfront then hell yea the cuemaker better make his suggested cue delivery date...
This may be a good business practice for the cue maker, but I doubt the law requires the [thing/cue/etc] to be done in exactly 90 days.

-td

[********************
Not intended in any way to be legal advice.
Always consult counsel licensed in your jurisdiction.
And never pay any attention to Forum Posts, especially by me.
*********************]

manwon
05-02-2008, 03:48 PM
Although posted with good intent, the poll is missing some critical information in order to fulfill its intended purpose. For example:

What do you mean by "fails to perform as agreed"? No product delivered at all after you paid the full amount?
No product delivered but you didn't even pay a deposit?
Product not exactly as described, but fully paid?
Product faulty, but only a deposit paid?
Product delivered late, but correct?
Custom product not exactly as intended, and fully paid?
Also, the poll makes it seem like only the buyer needs protecting. If the seller fails, the buyer is out time and maybe a deposit. BUT, if the buyer fails, then the cuemaker is out a sale, materials, and time which could be dedicated to other sales. Plus the cue might not be wanted by anyone else. For example, a buyer says "make me a cue" and the cuemaker does -> but the buyer then says "I didn't say that." Seems like the seller loses...

Nothing can stop a contract from being broken, written or oral. So, I guess the two real questions are: How much extra protection do you really think a written contract for the sale of a pool item will get you? And then, what would you do with it?

-td

All are very good points Thomas, however, a contact would protect both in any given situation. If nothing else, it would certainly stop all the he said - she said drama that occurs. If either party failed to honor a contract further actions some one MAY want to persue such as deposit refund or even payment upon completion of services can be back-up legally with a written document. I totally realize that most people would not want to persue this due to finacial considerations, but documents cans also be used to expose bad business practices on the part of the seller, or the buyer to others so that they can consider completely if they wish to deal with that person in the future.

Thanks for your post

manwon
05-02-2008, 03:52 PM
This may be a good business practice for the cue maker, but I doubt the law requires the [thing/cue/etc] to be done in exactly 90 days.

-td

[********************
Not intended in any way to be legal advice.
Always consult counsel licensed in your jurisdiction.
And never pay any attention to Forum Posts, especially by me.
*********************]

How about if the agreement was made for 90 days, and that passed. Then 180 days passed, and then 270 days passed. When has enough time passed to consider asking for a refund, I mean what is fair? This has occured here on this forum, and not just to one member, who would you feel?

Thanks

poolplayer2093
05-02-2008, 03:58 PM
will the people that vote

No buyers should not receive a refund, and

It should be a sellers option not the buyers option

please pm me i have some stuff for sale!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BRKNRUN
05-02-2008, 04:54 PM
It sounds like the cue making business might very well be a great business to get into......No experience required...

I mean really...All I have to do is start a thread telling everyone how great my cues are and start taking orders.....I am pretty sure I could come up with some pretty good BS how my cues would never warp due to a revolutionary process where I coat the wood in Bull Shit for a week before turning them on the lathe (that I don't have)......And the superb hit is due to the new "dongle pin" section made from a petrified Bull Pecker.

Money comes in but I never have to actually build them a cue....What a Deal!!!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

ericdraven
05-02-2008, 05:02 PM
hey no illusions , empty your pm box , i wanted to contact you about buying some of those garden gnomes or trolls . you know the ones/ i seen the ones on ebay but im looking for the smaller ones.

robertno1pool
05-02-2008, 05:48 PM
I vote for a contract between buyer and seller. A quote and delivery date suffices if accepted by two ethical parties.

However - I would rather have a standard AZ Forum Cue Purchase contract. (Yes - you heard it here first. ;) ) The contract should be detailed enough so both parties know what will be done and when the performance is measurable performed. It should have an expected beginning and an expected end. I am just a details guy who sees a tree but can miss the forrest. This would also help less experienced buyers who might forget details. Once a cue maker starts to use this format, it will become routine.

That said, yes a refund and penalty for both side of the agreement would be fine. No need to go for the jugular and run someone out of business or causes free cues to be furnished, just a penalty. Some buyers will really want the refund, where others might want to wait for a cue that is delivered late. Everyone is different and options could exist.

I suspect that waiting in line for a cue from some of the long waiting list of mega cue makers is also worth something. Why wait in line forever with a down-payment tied up just to get the same money back if a deal is not consummated?

Force majeure and other extrodinary events exist as well such as hurricaines, floods, spouses dying and The Derby Classic.
In the end, no contract will protect each party from getting into bad deals. Some people have no ethics and want to screw everyone they can.

powerlineman80
05-03-2008, 01:35 AM
but the buyer then says "I didn't say that." Seems like the seller loses...


Yea but unless its personalized (which the cuemaker can force the buyer to pay in full as the cue is DONE and if the buyer refuses then it wont be personalized and the cuemaker can sell to someone else to cover his tail). If the cuemaker is all he is supposed to be (like some here claim) then they shouldnt have NO PROBLEMS selling their cues. So I doubt the seller loses at all unless the cue is flat out ugly.

ericdraven
05-03-2008, 07:20 AM
i do not see anyone custom cue maker making a guarantee in writing that a cue will be made in so and so amount of time or refund or penalty , that would be stupid on the cuemakers part and since board talk is all opinions anyway that idea is plain stupid . that would never fly.

manwon
05-03-2008, 01:22 PM
i do not see anyone custom cue maker making a guarantee in writing that a cue will be made in so and so amount of time or refund or penalty , that would be stupid on the cuemakers part and since board talk is all opinions anyway that idea is plain stupid . that would never fly.

Eric I agree with you, YOU CERTAINLY DO NOT SEE WELL RESPECTED CUE MAKERS WHO ARE KNOWN TO HAVE INTEGRITY. WHICH IS EARNED BY THEIR INDIVIDUAL ACTIONS THROUGH COMMUNICATION AND DELIVERING WHAT A CUSTOMER REQUESTED WITHIN AN AGREED TIME FRAME, BE IT 10 DAYS OR 10 YEARS.

None of this is stupid Eric, this thread is designed to deal with Cue Makers who do not have a known reputation (NEW CUE MAKERS) like many here on this forum including myself. Remember Eric like a famous man once said Stupid is, as Stupid does, and sometimes Eric peoples opinions are stupid. But at times Eric Stupidity is an art, and some people should be hanging in a Museum in stead of posting on Internet Forums were their Stupidity becomes Legendary:D :D :D :D :D :D !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have a nice day Eric:p :p :p ;)

No Illusions
05-03-2008, 01:35 PM
Manwon you've done nothing but prove you are first class jerk off. I hope you never have you or anyone in your family fall ill. This will all come back 10x on you brother!

manwon
05-03-2008, 02:18 PM
Manwon you've done nothing but prove you are first class jerk off. I hope you never have you or anyone in your family fall ill. This will all come back 10x on you brother!

First of all I know more about family illness than you most likely ever will. Back in 1980's my child became very ill, she contracted encephalitis, and while she survived the event, she suffered major Brain Damage. My wife and I do not believe in institutionalized care so we made the decision to care for her in home. She is now in her twenties unable to speak, unable to walk, unable to feed herself, unable to do anything on her own. This has been a long road, with many bumps and many turns, however I would not change a single decision I have made. Even with all of the above I stayed in the US. Army for 23 years TO TAKE CARE OF MY FAMILY, my wife also endured many hardships WHEN I WAS DEPLOYED FOR SOMETIMES MORE THAN A YEAR AT TIME. However one thing I never did was use any of this as an EXCUSE, and trust me that was not easy to do.

Everything I do is for my family, there is certainly nothing more important!!! However, if I do not or anyone does not fulfill their obligations to others this is also another way of not supporting their family, because this will lead to a lack of financial means to do so.

Like I have said many times people should try walking a mile in another's shoes sometime, it can be a very enlightening experience, and you may want to try it in stead of saying things or judging others you know nothing about!!!!!!!!;)

As far as being a first class Jerk off, that title may fit me at times, but I would bet you have the blisters on your fingers and other parts of your anatomy!!!!!

Oh and by the way, remember there are children viewing this site, like you have brought up in the past, ,You do realize this is a public forum for pool and their are (mine) kids also on this site. Add another to the vacation list. I see this thread will be locked soon at this rate.
so since your children as you have said view it frequently you may want to explain to them why you are calling people jerk offs and what your comments mean.;) However, with you around I suspect they may already know first hand!!:eek: ;)

Have a nice day!!!!!!:)

manwon
05-03-2008, 02:24 PM
Manwon you've done nothing but prove you are first class jerk off. I hope you never have you or anyone in your family fall ill. This will all come back 10x on you brother!

Please do not post to this thread unless you have something to add, you will not succeed in Hijacking it!!!!!!! Sweat Heart!!!!!!!:D

manwon
05-03-2008, 05:06 PM
Manwon you've done nothing but prove you are first class jerk off. I hope you never have you or anyone in your family fall ill. This will all come back 10x on you brother!

You know I thought about this a little more, I have done nothing, to no one. Who and what are you talking about:confused:

How does this apply to this thread!!

Eric has contacted the Mod's about you posting nonsense in other peoples threads!!!!!!

Hey Illusions, you did not answer my post to you!!!!!!!! I am waiting!!!!!!!!

JB Cases
05-03-2008, 06:14 PM
Buyers and Sellers have no protection when they deal with just each other. You can have any contract you want and the cost of enforcing it will probably outweigh the loss.

IF one wants more (not absolute) protection then the best way is to go to a trusted third party who holds the money and who receives the cue when it is completed and who then deems the transaction completed as agreed on.

If the seller does not perform as agreed then a refund is obligated to the buyer at the buyer's request. I have refunded money when I didn't or couldn't deliver and always will.

I don't require deposits on products that are not personalized or super special order. If it's a product that I can sell otherwise then I am confident enough in my products that I don't need a deposit. I just don't want to get stuck with a case that says Harry and have to wait on a Harry that likes it. :-)

manwon
05-03-2008, 06:27 PM
Buyers and Sellers have no protection when they deal with just each other. You can have any contract you want and the cost of enforcing it will probably outweigh the loss.

IF one wants more (not absolute) protection then the best way is to go to a trusted third party who holds the money and who receives the cue when it is completed and who then deems the transaction completed as agreed on.

If the seller does not perform as agreed then a refund is obligated to the buyer at the buyer's request. I have refunded money when I didn't or couldn't deliver and always will.

I don't require deposits on products that are not personalized or super special order. If it's a product that I can sell otherwise then I am confident enough in my products that I don't need a deposit. I just don't want to get stuck with a case that says Harry and have to wait on a Harry that likes it. :-)


Thanks John very Good points!!!!

Thunderball
05-03-2008, 07:05 PM
If you have nothing to add please don't contaminate this thread

Contaminate?

I was just saying that powerlineman pretty much nailed my point without me having to type it in.....the rest of my post was silliness,but I think you misread my intent.

manwon
05-03-2008, 07:11 PM
Contaminate?

I was just saying that powerlineman pretty much nailed my point without me having to type it in.....the rest of my post was silliness,but I think you misread my intent.

I appoligise, I must have had too much Coffee!!!:)

Have a good night!!!!

manwon
05-04-2008, 12:13 AM
i do not see anyone custom cue maker making a guarantee in writing that a cue will be made in so and so amount of time or refund or penalty , that would be stupid on the cuemakers part and since board talk is all opinions anyway that idea is plain stupid . that would never fly.

Hello Eric or Don should I say;) You certainly do have a right to your opinion!!!!!

Have a good night Don!!!!!!!!:D

manwon
05-05-2008, 01:18 PM
Thanks to all who posted, I think a great deal of information has come out of this thread. I hope people use it, because it has been designed to be helpful not harmful.

Have a great day Craig

JoeyInCali
05-05-2008, 01:33 PM
Thanks to all who posted, I think a great deal of information has come out of this thread. I hope people use it, because it has been designed to be helpful not harmful.

Have a great day Craig
Hater!!!
I wonder how a maker would feel if he order custom pins, paid in full and the machinist is nowhere to be found for a few months? :eek:

Southpaw
05-05-2008, 01:45 PM
I feel that a cuemaker has the right to ask for a deposit for materials and that if the buyer decides later to not get a cue from the cuemanker, then that deposit should be non-refundable. And, when the cue is completed, the balance is due. All of this should be areed upon before any money changes hands IMO, as well as cue completion date. Now, as sometimes happens, things beyond our control may throw off the completion date or the balance owed may not be accessable on said date. In any event, there should be open communication on a regular basis by BOTH parties. This is the cornerstone to a successful business...JMO.

Southpaw

manwon
05-05-2008, 02:00 PM
Hater!!!
I wonder how a maker would feel if he order custom pins, paid in full and the machinist is nowhere to be found for a few months? :eek:

Maybe thats what happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :D

manwon
05-05-2008, 03:51 PM
[QUOTE=manwon]You know I thought about this a little more, I have done nothing, to no one. Who and what are you talking about:confused:

How does this apply to this thread!!

Eric has contacted the Mod's about you posting nonsense in other peoples threads!!!!!!

QUOTE]


Hey Illusions, you did not answer my post to you!!!!!!!! I am waiting!!!!!!!!
__________________

manwon
05-05-2008, 03:52 PM
I feel that a cuemaker has the right to ask for a deposit for materials and that if the buyer decides later to not get a cue from the cuemanker, then that deposit should be non-refundable. And, when the cue is completed, the balance is due. All of this should be areed upon before any money changes hands IMO, as well as cue completion date. Now, as sometimes happens, things beyond our control may throw off the completion date or the balance owed may not be accessable on said date. In any event, there should be open communication on a regular basis by BOTH parties. This is the cornerstone to a successful business...JMO.

Southpaw

Thanks for your input!!

Have a good day!!!!!

Rift
05-05-2008, 05:23 PM
First, this is a scary thread for someone in the process of getting their first custom. Second, the cuemaker that is working through the process of guiding a newbie such as myself is friendly, understanding and definitely someone I feel I could trust with whatever amount of money needed for a deposit. Of course I'm not as new to the rest of the world and have been burned in other transactions much like custom cues. But as for something personal like this I can't see myself doing business with someone I couldn't trust and didn't seem to have my best interests in their thoughts.

And I know thinking like that always leads to someone getting burned, but that's the price I'm willing to pay if instead it leads to a great friendship and furture ventures with someone dependable.

scruffy1
05-05-2008, 05:55 PM
First, this is a scary thread for someone in the process of getting their first custom. Second, the cuemaker that is working through the process of guiding a newbie such as myself is friendly, understanding and definitely someone I feel I could trust with whatever amount of money needed for a deposit. Of course I'm not as new to the rest of the world and have been burned in other transactions much like custom cues. But as for something personal like this I can't see myself doing business with someone I couldn't trust and didn't seem to have my best interests in their thoughts.

And I know thinking like that always leads to someone getting burned, but that's the price I'm willing to pay if instead it leads to a great friendship and furture ventures with someone dependable.

Well you absolutely have nothing to worry about with your cuemaker. One of the best and you can still talk to him. imagine that! Mike is a great guy and boy are you gonna love his cues.

manwon
05-05-2008, 06:03 PM
First, this is a scary thread for someone in the process of getting their first custom. Second, the cuemaker that is working through the process of guiding a newbie such as myself is friendly, understanding and definitely someone I feel I could trust with whatever amount of money needed for a deposit. Of course I'm not as new to the rest of the world and have been burned in other transactions much like custom cues. But as for something personal like this I can't see myself doing business with someone I couldn't trust and didn't seem to have my best interests in their thoughts.

And I know thinking like that always leads to someone getting burned, but that's the price I'm willing to pay if instead it leads to a great friendship and furture ventures with someone dependable.

Thanks for your input!!

Have a great day!!