I will be happy to stay out of your sale threads as long as you do not infringe on my brands.
As for your bigotry and slander that is just your personality so I will let it slide.
FS: Thomas, Fellini, and a REAL J Flowers
- Thread starter classiccues
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I will be happy to stay out of your sale threads as long as you do not infringe on my brands.
As for your bigotry and slander that is just your personality so I will let it slide.
This is confusing. Do you realize that when you advertise a case as being "a real J Flowers", a well-informed prospective buyer is going to assume you mean a case designed by/brand name introduced by John Barton? Instead, what you have there is a rare old original J.EF Q Case (attaching pic of brand name on mine, made and signed by Nora Van Horn). I used to import these cases 20 years ago for a couple of seasons and knew Jay in person. At the time, his cases used to be the reference standard by which all else were measured. You're effectively down-playing the fact you're offering a collectible.
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________
„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________
„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
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There is nothing bigoted about buying American. Of course I could call you a traitor for bailing on your country, but you know the saying about not letting the door hit you and all that.
JV
Like I said, I didn't realize that Johns copy was called a J Flowers, I abbreviated the name just for the listing. I will remember this when I relist it. BTW I think anyone who knows cases knows what I meant. If I said I had a real Balabushka would there be any question?
JV
I am sorry to have to keep correcting you. I didn't make a copy of a J.EF Q Case. I made a line of cases with some similar tooling patterns and my modern construction and dedicated that line to Jay Flowers by choosing the name J.Flowers accompanied by a link to Chris Tate's excellent page on the cases that inspired the line.
As much as you have been involved in discussions along these lines these past three years I find it hard to accept your claim of ignorance. After all you are supposed to be one of the forum's leading experts on old billiard stuff. You have been "in my business" so to speak quite a lot so I doubt highly that you were not fully aware of what you were writing. Although you often say things that are silly I don't think you are stupid.
I know what you meant. I only clarified it for the people who do not know what you meant. Because there IS a brand called J.Flowers and it's ours. I was polite about it and complimented you (or actually Mark) on possessing such a fine and unique example of a J.EF Q Case made by Nora Van Horn.
Which I might add we may never have known had Nora Van Horn's grandson and Jay's daughter not contacted Chris Tate based on google searches for Jay Flowers' name. You see because I chose to add to Chris Tate's recognition of Jay we ended up finding out that Nora Van Horn was the actual maker of most of, if not all of, the J.EF Q Cases. Isn't it nice to know the real history behind the items you are trying to sell?
Again, good luck with your sale.
Hmmm, Traitor huh? Last I checked being an American is all about freedom. So you think that people should not be free to live where they want to live, create where they want to create? Should all Americans stay in America all the time?
Should they never travel outside the USA? Never spend any money outside the US?
I could go on but there is no need. Using words like traitor define you Joe, sadly.
Whatever happened in your life to make you so jaded I hope that you can find a way to work through it.
And again, I hope you sell the items quickly to make Mark happy. Consider this a free bump.
Joe is much better at appraising old billiard stuff. I would recommend you put it in it's own thread and let some of the case collectors talk about it. You may want to be careful about getting appraisals from dealers however as there is an inherent conflict of interest in appraising something you might be interested in purchasing for resale.
You can call it what you want, as this has been discussed to death. Tributes, fine, call it whatever makes you happy.
John, you place to much impotance on yourself as always. I do not know what case lines you make, or what you call them. I will occasionally take a look at your custom offerings in the gallery, I have never been to your site so accept it or not, I don't care. I am not in your business, ever. I will make my feelings on manufacturing known in the NPR, but you took that to this forum. Something you will regret.
Ironically, a brand you made to confuse people.
JV
Traitor doesn't define me, and its you who needs to work through the jadedness, what made you so jaded to shun your own country?
JV
I didn't shun my country. I am 43 years old and I have lived 28 of those years in the USA. I went to Germany because the Air Force sent me there. When I got out of the Air Force I had a German girlfriend so I moved back to Germany to be with her and ended up starting a cue case business in my attic. Then in 1999 I moved back to the USA and opened a warehouse putting 6 people to work for several years. Then I sold my stake in that case company and moved to Charlotte to work for an entrepeneur who built his little importing business from just he and his wife into one that employees 18 people in the USA.
That guy sent me to China to work on the quality and variety of goods they get from there. While on assignment I met a nice Chinese girl and married her and we have a 2 1/2 year old. I got the bug to start making cases again and I started a little workshop in my apartment with my girlfriend's mother doing the sewing. That has now grown into the operation I now have.
I just ride the waves of life Joe. Has absolutely nothing to do with patriotism. I am a citizen of the world who was just LUCKY to have been born an American with all the privilege that comes with it. I am pretty sure I understand more about being an American than you do. I certainly understand the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Do you?
I didn't call you a traitor. If you think you're a patriot however you certainly don't really understand what that means based on things you have said. I don't really have the time or desire to educate you on it and I feel that whatever I say to you will fall on deaf ears anyway.
And you were part of those discussions so claiming ignorance doesn't wash.
Yes, it's obvious that you don't care to have the correct information about the products you are offering for sale.
mmm hmmm. If that's what you want to tell yourself go ahead. I am beyond the point where I need to go back and find the places where you stuck your bigoted and incorrect views into threads about me and my products. Unless you care to make a wager in which case it would be worth it.
Joe, there is NOTHING you can say or do to me that will cause me any regret. I beat you every time you try to go against me because I speak from a position of facts. I am not an angel and I have plenty of issues but I am consistent and have been throughout my years on these forums. My "life" has been on display for 15 years. There isn't a damn thing you can say about me that hasn't already been said.
No Joe, it's a brand I made to protect the name "Flowers" from others. As I have stated a hundred times I could have used any other name on the cases and they would have sold just as well if not better. I deliberately chose J.Flowers to PREVENT an unscrupulous company from using it. This other company was in the process of taking brand names such as Whitten and Justis and I didn't want them to take "Flowers" once I started advertising the cases with reference to Jay Flowers' cases.
You don't get it. Flowers was not ever a brand name. Never. Just because people commonly referred to them as Flowers doesn't mean that this was the brand. Three years ago before coming out with these cases people barely knew what Jay Flowers cases were.
Doug Wiley posted that he couldn't sell a Jay Flowers case in Tampa where Jay was from for $50 because no one knew of the cases. I revived interest in it and highlighted Jay and Nora's contribution to case making. Because of me thousands of people around the world read about Jay Flowers and Nora Van Horn's contribution to case making every day when they visit Sterling's websites and my website.
Thus Jay and Nora are not lost to history because people like you don't care enough to find out the history of the things you sell and don't care enough to publish it.
The only confused one here is you. Will someone please buy this case already so Joe can get a gold star from his boss?
Beating a dead horse, I guess, but as far as I'm concerned, John's "Tribute" cases (I'd prefer if it actually said "J Flowers Tribute Cases" on them, even if there never was a product with the brand name "(Jay) Flowers") are literally a tribute in the sense that they improve on the original in virtually every respect (the UltraPad interior that leaves nothing rattling and ensures nothing flips out of the case in e.g. the trunk of one's car slamming on the brakes; the more stable and padded bottom; the longer pouch with jump cue handle side compartment; the way the lid remains attached on one side without straining the leather, yet can still be taken off; the doubly secure latch; the quality of the zippers; the padded shoulder pad etc.), look similar and "retro" enough for a "tribute" type product, yet unmistakably different (impossible to mistake one for the other). Like I said, I used to import J.EF Q Cases 20 years ago and they used to be the reference standard at the time, but hey, things evolve, that's the way the cookie crumbles. As to the location of the production facility, what can I say, I'm Swiss, preferring to remain neutral - maybe I'd feel different about it if we discussed something "Swiss Made", as it is, entirely satisfied to let a product speak for itself… :deadhorse:
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________
„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________
„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
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:scratchhead::help::scratchhead:
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________
„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
I knew exactly what Joe was saying when he posted the thread. So did everyone else. The street name for the case is a flowers nobody really gives two hoots who was actually sewing the thread and leather together. It was definitely joes intention to clarify that it was an original and not the JB version. Understandably so IMO.
Whitewash it anyway you would like, but we all know what it truely is. You can't educate on something you know nothing about.
JV
If I entered these discussion, which I do not remember doing, but its quite possible.
To me J Flowers, Jay Flowes, JEF Q cases, whatever... the point I was making which was and is perfectly understandable to anyone in the industry is the one for sale is a real one and NOT one of yours.
You don't speak a word of fact, especially when it comes to China. The fact I don't like Chinese made goods does not make me a bigot, as much as you're refusal to set up shop here makes you a traitor.
You're still out of your mind. You took a name that you know was associated with the first style of that case, so you could piggy back off the work that those people did. Saying anything else is flat out lying and disrespectful to the hard work that they did. You can paint it anyway you want, but for you its not about the love of the case, it's about the love of money. Why are you in China, MONEY. Why did you decide to use J Flowers? MONEY, Why do you need to go back and copy the most popular cases ever made in pool, ie; Fellini, Flowers... MONEY.
I don't even have a problem with the copying, but the BS on why you did it, do you really think anyone that reads it, buys it?
JV
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Maybe it's different for me as I personally knew Jay, who was quite a character (among other, he scared the hell out of my then-girlfriend - LOL!) - I regard it as one of his greater achievements that he was able to make people believe he made cue cases. In reality, I remember the communication and business with him as ceaselessly complicated by that implicit claim - it would have been more straightforward to discuss orders directly with the person who did make the cases! It was frustrating and cost both parties time and money! Given my experience doing business with the man himself, I'm baffled no one sees the irony in an ongoing dispute over "Flowers" being a brand name (= which it wasn't until recently, that is, years after his death) versus the name of the person who "made" those cases (= wasn't him to begin with).
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________
„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
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