Thoughts About Ralph Greenleaf And Alcoholism

[Robb Browning]

Maybe it's misplaced compassion. He died before I was born, but I always felt bad for him.
I know people today that are just like him, equally irresponsible and on a slow suicide mission

From what I know... Ralph died homeless and literally on the streets after destroying everything good in his life and in the end he was so far gone that no one cared.

People did their best to help him,.... including Willie Mosconi who actually let him live in his house and basically babysat him for years.

Willie said he was always drunk, whether he was playing good or playing bad and people who thought he was playing bad because he was drinking completely missed the boat on what was happening and what went wrong.

I see this same, exact issue in the pool rooms and bars today.... only they're not world famous.

I just think it was a shame for Ralph and a shame for the potentially great payers of today.

Not that pool has any money, but I wish someone would start some kind of foundation to help these players.

Just needed a place to put that.

 

[Black-Balled]

What do you think will help most of them? I'd venture to guess most would bite the hand that feeds them over and over again, rather than benefit in any measurable way.

I had a pool friend who was a stone cold alcoholic and I didn't see him as intentionally putting himself there.

He slowly drank his way from a place where he'd rather drink than do anything else, to where he needed to drink to function. How are you going to help that?

And he is dead now, btw.

 

[livemusic]

Seems to me that drinking is much more prevalent these days than when I was young but I don't have any data to back that up. If it's true, could be a relaxation of societal norms but also because it is accepted more as a mainstream activity. I drink, myself, but have long thought that advertising for alcoholic beverages is wrong... no need for it... they have bazillions of dollars and can create all of these hey-look-at-me-I-am-so-cool adverts and people think you have to drink to have a good time. I was in Canada in the 70s and was shocked you had to buy booze from a government store. Not sure, but seems they also banned advertising? If that is still the case, I wonder what the rate of drinking there is vs. the USA.

Yet, Prohibition proved that banning drinking doesn't work as planned. Many people tend to want to escape for awhile comfortably numb.

 

[Robb Browning]

What do you think will help most of them? I'd venture to guess most would bite the hand that feeds them over and over again, rather than benefit in any measurable way.

I had a pool friend who was a stone cold alcoholic and I didn't see him as intentionally putting himself there.

He slowly drank his way from a place where he'd rather drink than do anything else, to where he needed to drink to function. How are you going to help that?

And he is dead now, btw.

I don't know what would help them. It would take people more intelligent than me.
It's one thing for an inherent loser to throw everything away...., but it's a whole different thing when your throw greatness away and Ralph was truly great.

 

[Robb Browning]

Seems to me that drinking is much more prevalent these days than when I was young but I don't have any data to back that up. If it's true, could be a relaxation of societal norms but also because it is accepted more as a mainstream activity. I drink, myself, but have long thought that advertising for alcoholic beverages is wrong... no need for it... they have bazillions of dollars and can create all of these hey-look-at-me-I-am-so-cool adverts and people think you have to drink to have a good time. I was in Canada in the 70s and was shocked you had to buy booze from a government store. Not sure, but seems they also banned advertising? If that is still the case, I wonder what the rate of drinking there is vs. the USA.

Yet, Prohibition proved that banning drinking doesn't work as planned. Many people tend to want to escape for awhile comfortably numb.

Yeah - it's a socially accepted norm with massive profit.

A friend of mine who was trying to get sober was explaining that people think it's easy because they're not conscious of its influence.... so I pictured myself being an alcoholic and trying not to drink. I couldn't believe how much a part of society it is.

Everytime an America leaves their house they are bombarded with alcohol ads... in every convenience store window, every gas station, every radio station, every billboard, every bar-of course, etc.... It's EVERYWHERE we turn. Then you get home and it's all over TV and the internet.

Imagine being a cocaine addict and a cocaine salesman is on every street corner and every TV stateion, radio station, magazine and website.

 

[kling&allen]

A lot of the information about Greenleaf isn't true. He didn't die homeless and made good money in his final years giving exhibitions. He won an antitrust lawsuit against Brunswick in 1948 and Brunswick's corporate response (to defame Ralph) is the source of a lot of misinformation. He was certainly an alcoholic and died of complications from it in 1950.

1936 was Ralph's bad year where he went bankrupt and then disappeared. But after that unfortunate event he reunited with his exwife and retured to glory in 1937-1939.

This month's Billiard Buzz magazine had an article I wrote on his earlier years. Next month will cover his missing years in the mid 30s. My book should be out next year in the event anyone is interested in more details.

 

[philly]

What do you think will help most of them? I'd venture to guess most would bite the hand that feeds them over and over again, rather than benefit in any measurable way.

I had a pool friend who was a stone cold alcoholic and I didn't see him as intentionally putting himself there.

He slowly drank his way from a place where he'd rather drink than do anything else, to where he needed to drink to function. How are you going to help that?

And he is dead now, btw.

It's sad.
Not just drink.
All addictions, gambling too has ruined families and businesses.
People have to want to change after all is said and done.
Sad.

How many psychologists do you need to change a light bulb?
None. The light bulb has to want to change.

 

[Robb Browning]

A lot of the information about Greenleaf isn't true. He didn't die homeless and made good money in his final years giving exhibitions. He won an antitrust lawsuit against Brunswick in 1948 and Brunswick's corporate response (to defame Ralph) is the source of a lot of misinformation. He was certainly an alcoholic and died of complications from it in 1950.

1936 was Ralph's bad year where he went bankrupt and then disappeared. But after that unfortunate event he reunited with his exwife and retured to glory in 1937-1939.

This month's Billiard Buzz magazine had an article I wrote on his earlier years. Next month will cover his missing years in the mid 30s. My book should be out next year in the event anyone is interested in more details.

Are you sure you're getting the right information?
I mean - Did Brunswick try to defame Ralph because they didn't like his shoes?
From what I know... he wasn't showing up at exhibitions and when he did show up he was plastered and making an ass of himself and the event. Is Brunswick supposed to be OK with that?

This is not to say you are wrong...., but it is to say... that's not the story I know.

If it's true what Mosconi said, and I have no reason to doubt him..... Ralph was always drunk (always) but could play great or horrible while drunk. --- the question is: could he play great or horrible when he was sober.... and then the only answer is...., "No one knows because he was never sober."

That tells you the alcohol was not related to his pool game and he was simply drinking as a form of medication to control some deep psychological issue..., probably stemming from child abuse.

 

[Scott Lee]

I don't know what would help them. It would take people more intelligent than me.
It's one thing for an inherent loser to throw everything away...., but it's a whole different thing when your throw greatness away and Ralph was truly great.

Robb Browning...Your information is erroneous. It might help you to know that Ralph Greenleaf was an alcoholic and a drug addict. Addictions cause people to do many strange things, suicide among them. Without intervention (which was not available almost a century ago) many addicts succumb to their own addictions. FYI, there were others, closer to Greenleaf in his later years, than Mosconi.

Jack White told me a true story about Ralph that happened in Pittsburgh when Jack was a teenager (and an up and coming local player). Greenleaf was scheduled to do an exhibition at a local poolroom. It was one of those rooms where you went down stairs off the sidewalk to the basement pool hall. It was pouring rain and the pool hall was 20 blocks from the train station. Greenleaf, arriving via train, walked the 20 blocks in the pouring rain and arrived at the hall to a crowded house. He was drenched from head to foot, and as usual drunk. Like in The Hustler where Fats cleaned himself up and was ready to play, Ralph did the same thing...went to the bathroom, cleaned himself up, combed his hair, walked out with his head high, picked up a house cue off the wall, and ran 125 and out in 14.1. After finishing the exhibition Ralph put his wet overcoat back on, left the poolroom and disappeared into the rain, walking the 20 blocks back to the train station.

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

 

[Robb Browning]

Robb Browning...Your information is erroneous. It might help you to know that Ralph Greenleaf was an alcoholic and a drug addict. Addictions cause people to do many strange things, suicide among them. Without intervention (which was not available almost a century ago) many addicts succumb to their own addictions. FYI, there were others, closer to Greenleaf in his later years, than Mosconi.

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

Alright - so the question is: Why did Brunswick turn their back on him?
If he won the lawsuit it would suggest that they were in the wrong and he was in the right.... Right?

 

[kling&allen]

Are you sure you're getting the right information?
I mean - Did Brunswick try to defame Ralph because they didn't like his shoes?
From what I know... he wasn't showing up at exhibitions and when he did show up he was plastered and making an ass of himself and the event. Is Brunswick supposed to be OK with that?

This is not to say you are wrong...., but it is to say... that's not the story I know.

If it's true what Mosconi said, and I have no reason to doubt him..... Ralph was always drunk (always) but could play great or horrible while drunk. --- the question is: could he play great or horrible when he was sober.... and then the only answer is...., "No one knows because he was never sober."

That tells you the alcohol was not related to his pool game and he was simply drinking as a form of medication to control some deep psychological issue..., probably stemming from child abuse.

Ralph was one of America's top sports stars for decades and I've been able to assemble a database of hundreds of articles that describe all these details. Let me know if you'd like more background details, I'm happy to share.

Brunswick required all tournament players to use only Brunswick equipment and perform exhibitions only at Brunswick-related pool halls. In 1946, after his successful Brunswick-sponsored tour with Mosconi, Ralph went on on a tour sponsored by Brunswick's competitors. Within months Ralph was banned by Brunswick from the world championship tournament, which triggered Ralph's lawsuit. 1945-1946 were "good" years for Ralph's drinking in that he stayed out of trouble. Ralph's play in the 1945 world championship (where he lost to Mosconi) drew acclaim.

The events Brunswick raised in the lawsuit were from years, or even decades, earlier--like Ralph's drunken meltdown at the 1933 championship tournament or breaking a cue in 1943. Brunswick also banned Johnny Layton and Andrew St. Jean, other old-timers who questioned the monopoly. I suspect a big part of this was Brunswick's desire to clear the field for younger players (Mosconi) and get rid of the old guys.

I'll agree with you that Brunswick had every right to manage the sport and the tournaments. Without Brunswick's support and careful management, pool would have died before 1920. But its exclusivity contracts were certainly illegal. Without those it could have banned Ralph (or anyone else) for any reason. But even in 1947 Ralph was still one of the top draws on the pool exhibition circuit. And Brunswick didn't want competition.

Ralph's public problems with drinking started after his father died in 1924. His mother died in 1919. He was close with his father and within months of his death he was divorced and dropping out of tournaments. It was his second wife (Amelia) that was his rock. When he was with her, she appeared to somewhat manage his drinking and his friends. When they were separated (1934-1936), Ralph's life quickly fell apart.

 

[Robb Browning]

Alright - so the question is: Why did Brunswick turn their back on him?
If he won the lawsuit it would suggest that they were in the wrong and he was in the right.... Right?

Admittedly - I don't know a whole lot about this, which is one of the reasons for this post.
I'm looking forward to your article so I can get a better insight on the whole thing, because I think there's many, many potentially great pool players who could benefit, along with the whole sport.... by some kind of Greenleaf Foundation cause.

 

[measureman]

Is Robb Browning Justnum in disguise?
Posts are eerily similar and frequent.

 

[Robb Browning]

Ralph was one of America's top sports stars for decades and I've been able to assemble a database of hundreds of articles that describe all these details. Let me know if you'd like more background details, I'm happy to share.

Brunswick required all tournament players to use only Brunswick equipment and perform exhibitions only at Brunswick-related pool halls. In 1946, after his successful Brunswick-sponsored tour with Mosconi, Ralph went on on a tour sponsored by Brunswick's competitors. Within months Ralph was banned by Brunswick from the world championship tournament, which triggered Ralph's lawsuit. 1945-1946 were "good" years for Ralph's drinking in that he stayed out of trouble. Ralph's play in the 1945 world championship (where he lost to Mosconi) drew acclaim.

The events Brunswick raised in the lawsuit were from years, or even decades, earlier--like Ralph's drunken meltdown at the 1933 championship tournament or breaking a cue in 1943. Brunswick also banned Johnny Layton and Andrew St. Jean, other old-timers who questioned the monopoly. I suspect a big part of this was Brunswick's desire to clear the field for younger players (Mosconi) and get rid of the old guys.

I'll agree with you that Brunswick had every right to manage the sport and the tournaments. Without Brunswick's support and careful management, pool would have died before 1920. But its exclusivity contracts were certainly illegal. Without those it could have banned Ralph (or anyone else) for any reason. But even in 1947 Ralph was still one of the top draws on the pool exhibition circuit. And Brunswick didn't want competition.

Ralph's public problems with drinking started after his father died in 1924. His mother died in 1919. He was close with his father and within months of his death he was divorced and dropping out of tournaments. It was his second wife (Amelia) that was his rock. When he was with her, she appeared to somewhat manage his drinking and his friends. When they were separated (1934-1936), Ralph's life quickly fell apart.

GREAT response.
NOW.... it's starting to make sense.

 

[Robb Browning]

Is Robb Browning Justnum in disguise?
Posts are eerily similar and frequent.

Why do you insist on trolling me? You just follow me around trying to flame me and it's childish.
It is impossible to multi-account at this forum and I have no idea who Justnum is.
I am Robb Browning.

 

[kling&allen]

GREAT response.
NOW.... it's starting to make sense.

Thanks. Here's a link to the thread on the two past articles on Greenleaf's childhood and rise to fame:

New Article Series on Ralph Greenleaf

AZB (Mike) kindly agreed to publish some of my research on Ralph Greenleaf in the Billiard Buzz magazine. I'd appreciate any feedback from the learned members of this forum. And I'm happy to address any questions in the future articles. Here's...

forums.azbilliards.com

Life has always been tough for professional pool players. Greenleaf toured 9 months of the year and gave exhibitions 5 or 6 days a week. Most of these billiard halls served alcohol, providing daily temptation. The road players of modern times lead nearly identical lives. You or someone else recently mentioned the obvious parallels between Greenleaf and Louie Roberts.

 

[Scott Lee]

Why do you insist on trolling me? You just follow me around trying to flame me and it's childish.
It is impossible to multi-account at this forum and I have no idea who Justnum is.
I am Robb Browning.

Again, you have no idea what you're talking about. There are several posters here with multiple accounts. When they get caught, they get banned.

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

 

[Tin Man]

I can't believe how mainstream drinking is. As was pointed out alcohol is just one of many different behaviors that can be destructive. There is a big difference in terms of it being socially encouraged.

In the 20 years I worked corporate jobs there were always a string of 'team building' type of events. Either holiday get togethers, celebratory dinners, big conventions, etc. Always, at the end of the business day when the food was served it was expected that everyone start drinking. Those on the team who were the most out of control were glorified. The next day people would show off pictures and relive who sang the worst karaoke or who was slurring and falling down the most.

I don't enjoy drinking more than one drink and always felt extremely out of place. People would heckle me and plead with me to just go with it and have some fun. You know those videos about peer pressure in middle school where everyone rolls their eyes and says "It doesn't happen like that, people don't just say 'C'mon man, everyone's doing it!'"? Well, that's exactly how it is.

You don't see this with any other addiction. Sure, people get together and go gamble, or do different drugs, or whatever. But alcohol is the one that is backed by every family gettogether, every corporate event, every major sporting event (live or when friends watch the game), to every barbeque.

I have no problem with a drink now and then and think it's fine to loosen up every now and again and celebrate our lives together. But for many people it stopped being celebratory a long time ago. And what's disappointing is it feels like society expects it to be that way.

 

[Black-Balled]

I don't know what would help them. It would take people more intelligent than me.
It's one thing for an inherent loser to throw everything away...., but it's a whole different thing when your throw greatness away and Ralph was truly great.

Why do you insist on trolling me? You just follow me around trying to flame me and it's childish.
It is impossible to multi-account at this forum and I have no idea who Justnum is.
I am Robb Browning.

Bull caca mama.
Lets see a pic of your license. Cover up necessary personal info with coins.

 

[Robb Browning]

Bull caca mama.
Lets see a pic of your license. Cover up necessary personal info with coins.

You're another one who consistently trolls this website and have been doing it for years. And then when someone calls you out on it you play like you're the poor victim and you deserve a fresh box of tissues to ease your pain.

This thread is a valid conversation about a player with serious vices and personal problems and I think it's important. If you don't find any interest in this then go find something that you are interested in.

If this is the way you get your jollies - you're pathetic and you're doing nothing but adding more damage to this forum and this sport.