LD and Power

[Patrick Johnson]

I ran through the thread again incase you had stated it prior, but couldn't find any mention of the maker/model of your LD shaft.

Curious if I have a local player that may have the same type so I can compare with what I have on hand.

It's a custom shaft (made to my specs here in Chicago by Ed Young) on a random Joss butt. The shaft's specs are:
- solid* maple
- *hollowed 6-8" at the tip
- 9.5mm tip width
- conical taper (straight from tip to joint)
- 3/8" long capped sleeve ferrule (of typical ferrule plastic)
- hard layered UltraSkin tip
- lowest squirt I know of (~20" pivot length = max squirt ~1.5°)

pj
chgo

 

[KRJ]

Yep, that's why the question arises in my so-called mind.

"Low deflection" means less cue ball deflection ("squirt"), not less shaft flexibility. In fact, most claims about shaft flexibility are that more shaft deflection = less squirt (although in reality they have little to do with each other).

Maybe. But is it enough to hamper jumping?

Thanks for the thoughts.

pj
chgo

I love my OB shafts, but they are for shit to "masse" with it. You really have to hit it perfect and hit it at the exact right speed and not that consistent for me. Maybe others can work their magic with them but I can't. But, in all fairness, the amount of times I have to masse is few and far between

 

[The_JV]

It's a custom shaft (made to my specs here in Chicago by Ed Young) on a random Joss butt. The shaft's specs are:
- solid* maple
- *hollowed 6-8" at the tip
- 9.5mm tip width
- conical taper (straight from tip to joint)
- 3/8" long capped sleeve ferrule (of typical ferrule plastic)
- hard layered UltraSkin tip
- lowest squirt I know of (~20" pivot length = max squirt ~1.5°)

pj
chgo

Wow... I can't imagine something more difficult to play pool with...lol

9.5mm diameter tip, that has a hollowed center, yet still uses a standard plastic ferrule....?

I have gained massive respect for you game. I know several well advanced players that could not play with a tip so small. You stroke must be dead straight to play well with such a cue. Well done

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Wow... I can't imagine something more difficult to play pool with...lol

I can't imagine playing with anything else. Regular cues feel like I'm playing with a baseball bat.

9.5mm diameter tip, that has a hollowed center, yet still uses a standard plastic ferrule....?

I assume it's standard plastic - it looks like it to me. The cuemaker knew I was going for minimum squirt so he might have chosen a lighter material, I suppose.

I have gained massive respect for you game. I know several well advanced players that could not play with a tip so small. You stroke must be dead straight to play well with such a cue. Well done

Who says I play well?

Actually, the small tip plays exactly like a bigger one - think of it as the center 9.5mm of your wider tip... you only use more than that for extreme spin. Except I can see much more precisely where I'm hitting the CB. The conical taper makes a nice stiff hit, so it's all good.

Surprisingly, the ultra-low squirt is the bigger stroke challenge. It's actually less forgiving of stroke errors than a higher squirt cue (because its pivot point is farther from the bridge).

pj
chgo

 

[Poolmanis]

there are a lot of Meucci´s that are really flexible but still deflect quite a lot. Dunno why people still think deflection is flex thing..

 

[Mick]

I'll drop my $0.02 in here. I have 2 LD shafts, a lucasi slim, and a Jacoby black. They play very similarly. They have a very similar tip size, and similar tip hardness (the tip on the Lucasi is actually a tad harder). They have an identical (IDENTICAL) amount of deflection. They have a very similar taper. The only real difference is the Jacoby is MUCH stiffer.

I can masse and jump much easier with the Jacoby than I can with the maple Lucasi. I have to put that down to the stiffness.

 

[garczar]

I'll drop my $0.02 in here. I have 2 LD shafts, a lucasi slim, and a Jacoby black. They play very similarly. They have a very similar tip size, and similar tip hardness (the tip on the Lucasi is actually a tad harder). They have an identical (IDENTICAL) amount of deflection. They have a very similar taper. The only real difference is the Jacoby is MUCH stiffer.

I can masse and jump much easier with the Jacoby than I can with the maple Lucasi. I have to put that down to the stiffness.

How do you know deflection is identical?

 

[Mick]

How do you know deflection is identical?

Because I tested them.

Edit: To clarify, before I committed to buying carbon, I tested to see how much more or less deflection my buddy's Jacoby had than my Lucasi. I didn't want to get one if it wasn't similar to what I was used to. I repeatedly shot max english towards the same spot on the far rail with both cues repeatedly, and they had the same average contact point. I tested several other cues this way as well, and they all had different contact points, depending on how much they deflected.

 

[The_JV]

Because I tested them.

Edit: To clarify, before I committed to buying carbon, I tested to see how much more or less deflection my buddy's Jacoby had than my Lucasi. I didn't want to get one if it wasn't similar to what I was used to. I repeatedly shot max english towards the same spot on the far rail with both cues repeatedly, and they had the same average contact point. I tested several other cues this way as well, and they all had different contact points, depending on how much they deflected.

Along the same lines... I demo'd the jacoby black 11.8, against my predator Z2 (11.75). The Z2 comes in at 3.2oz, and I couldn't find a number for the 11.8 black, but the 12.3 is ~3.6oz. No clue what the end mass is for either. I would hazard a guess and guesstimate the 11.8 black to be near identical in weight to the Z2. The squirt caused by the Jacoby was notably much greater. I would also blame the CF shaft's stiffness for this. Weird though, I keep getting told stiffness has next to no bearing on the deflection characteristics of a cue. I guess the only other option would be that jacoby purposely loaded weight to the front end of the shaft in an effort to increase CB squirt...? Seems an odd thing to do.

I didn't attempt a jump with the jacoby. I knew it wouldn't work and I respect the owner too much to abuse his equipment. I would think it safe to assume it would do a slightly better job than the Z2.

 

[garczar]

Because I tested them.

Edit: To clarify, before I committed to buying carbon, I tested to see how much more or less deflection my buddy's Jacoby had than my Lucasi. I didn't want to get one if it wasn't similar to what I was used to. I repeatedly shot max english towards the same spot on the far rail with both cues repeatedly, and they had the same average contact point. I tested several other cues this way as well, and they all had different contact points, depending on how much they deflected.

I do the same test buts its still not the most accurate way. Very hard if not impossible to strike the ball exactly same way time after time. No offense but i'm going with Predator's explanation.

 

[hang-the-9]

I don't recall any discussion here (and don't find it on Dr. Dave's FAQ) about whether low deflection affects power transferred to the CB. If there is an effect I guess it must be a decrease in power transferred - and I wonder if that's why LD shafts don't jump as well.

Anybody know anything about this? Was there a discussion here that I missed/forgot? Dr. Dave, did I miss this on your site? Has it been measured?

Thanks for any info/comments.

pj
chgo

A while ago I talked to the OB folks about why LD shafts don't jump well, they said "we don't know".

This is why my stance on banning jump cues has a provision that you can use your secondary/break cue to jump. If it's harder to jump than with a full length/weight cue with a standard shaft, you should be allowed a secondary cue to execute the jumps and break with. Two cue to a match max. You can pick a break cue that you jump with, or break and play with your cue and get a second for jumps only (again standard size and weight nothing short or super light), or a break cue you jump with along with a playing cue.

 

[garczar]

A while ago I talked to the OB folks about why LD shafts don't jump well, they said "we don't know".

This is why my stance on banning jump cues has a provision that you can use your secondary/break cue to jump. If it's harder to jump than with a full length/weight cue with a standard shaft, you should be allowed a secondary cue to execute the jumps and break with. Two cue to a match max. You can pick a break cue that you jump with, or break and play with your cue and get a second for jumps only (again standard size and weight nothing short or super light), or a break cue you jump with along with a playing cue.

I like DCC's rule: you can have a break cue but after that you have to play every shot with your player.

 

[hang-the-9]

I like DCC's rule: you can have a break cue but after that you have to play every shot with your player.

That works, except for the issue of physics and the LD shafts. I don't like making jump shots easier like with a jump cue, but at the same time making them harder is also not fun. At DCC though its a bit less of an issue though than with local tournaments because the top players can jump decently with an LD shaft.

 

[garczar]

That works, except for the issue of physics and the LD shafts. I don't like making jump shots easier like with a jump cue, but at the same time making them harder is also not fun. At DCC though its a bit less of an issue though than with local tournaments because the top players can jump decently with an LD shaft.

And they can kick which is the intent of the rule imo.