Grip Nuances

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
No, that's not what I mean.
Oh ok... my bad. I misunderstood
I do the same thing with grip pressure - use my "power shot" grip for every shot so I won't change the pressure ("clench") midstroke.
I, without question in my mind, alter grip pressure based on shot requirements. Not during the shot, but determined during practice stokes. Not going to say it provides any benefit though. There's a sizeable difference in my grip between say a long bomb with tons of action, versus a slow roll that needs to move only a handful of inches.
 

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Maybe it is because the grip is such an individual thing that it is hard to recommend a "one size fits all" instruction. To me, the goal is to deliver the cue straight and without any twisting.
Building a grip can involve assembling insights from various sources.

Joe Davis influenced my initial cue action using pressure in the first two fingers and thumb.

That is a snapshot type of thinking as he went on to show that during the drive forward the wrist flexes forward and down to push the cue through in a straight line.

Ronnie O’Sullivan and Stephen Lee ascribe to a pinching sense of the grip also in the two front fingers rather than a fisted inside cock.

Rather than wrap around the cue the forefinger is in a triggered position and the pinch action during natural tightening, is equal from the sides holding the thumb straight down and on line throughout.

I borrow from Brandon the Billiard Guy on YouTube when on the rail.

He uses the back 2 finger grip when shooting off the rail at distance, I use three. I’ve added a slightly flexed forward wrist and the pinch feel in the back fingers because of the restrictive backswing space.

Echoing Dan, getting the cue through straight on contact should be the overall objective.

Thanks to everyone for contributing. This topic spans the entirety of playing levels.
 
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bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thanks for your observations and suggestions dan
Building a grip can involve assembling insights from various sources.

Joe Davis influenced my initial cue action using pressure in the first two fingers and thumb.

That is a snapshot type of thinking as he went on to show that during the drive forward the wrist flexes forward and down to push the cue through in a straight line.

Ronnie O’Sullivan and Stephen Lee ascribe to a pinching sense of the grip also in the two front fingers rather than a fisted inside cock.

Rather than wrap around the cue the forefinger is in a triggered position and the pinch action during natural tightening, is equal from the sides holding the thumb straight down and on line throughout.

I borrow from Brandon the Billiard Guy on YouTube when on the rail.

He uses the back 3 finger grip when shooting off the rail at distance. I’ve added a slightly flexed forward wrist and the pitch feel in the back fingers because of the restrictive backswing space.

Echoing Dan, getting the cue through straight on contact should be the overall objective.

Thanks to everyone for contributing. This topic spans the entirety of playing levels.
thanks for the snippets
and thanks some more for your experience and observations lmac007
 
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The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
I borrow from Brandon the Billiard Guy on YouTube when on the rail.

He uses the back 3 finger grip when shooting off the rail at distance. I’ve added a slightly flexed forward wrist and the pinch feel in the back fingers because of the restrictive backswing space.
Man this guy has a lot of videos...lol. I went hunting for the particular one noted above... Is this it...?

Along the way to that finding that vid, I watched a few others. ...and although I repect the hell out of the man for being so informative, I do have to say that his bridging examples on the rail were painful to watch.
Open:
Closed:

I also now desperately want the Predator perimeter light based on his review....lol I'm sure I can make for 1k less though (excluding remote control).

I did my best not to expand beyond the OP's question on my first post, so I'll do it now...lol. The only time I ever change my grip method (not pressure) is when I'm stretched out enough to allow cupping the butt (ya I know what I just said). I don't know if it's some subconscious "grip of comfort" from my snooker days or whatever. Grip entails the the fore and middle finger gripping and the very end of the cue against my closed ring finger.
 
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Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
although I repect the hell out of the man for being so informative, I do have to say that his bridging examples on the rail were painful to watch.
His views are his and like you said we should respect for sharing. The first video was the one that got my attention. Memory isn’t what it used to be since he says the back two fingers. As my post revealed I modified his method. My thumb and forefinger are very passive on these long shots, but I trigger my center finger forward in the slight flex hold. He talks about it being a roll it in grip but then drives his cue ball off multiple rails. He also advises using a small amount of downward pressure on some rail shots to stabilize the cue. Both the long rail shot and the nearer one need that sense of driving through the ball on a slight inclined plane. Contact through the ball will always determine results.

Good diggin there JV
 

JuanM

Active member
in "banks that dont go, but do", Freddy Bentivegna touches on this

follow strokes = grip emphasis on index/middle
dead ball = middle fingers
draw strokes = rear fingers

or something along those lines. worth a watch.


edit:
lil clip of him talking about it on yt
 
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Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
in "banks that dont go, but do", Freddy Bentivegna touches on this

follow strokes = grip emphasis on index/middle
dead ball = middle fingers
draw strokes = rear fingers

or something along those lines. worth a watch.
Have to find the clip. Thanks.
in "banks that dont go, but do", Freddy Bentivegna touches on this

follow strokes = grip emphasis on index/middle
dead ball = middle fingers
draw strokes = rear fingers

or something along those lines. worth a watch.


edit:
lil clip of him talking about it on yt
Thanks for the edit and link.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
in "banks that dont go, but do", Freddy Bentivegna touches on this

follow strokes = grip emphasis on index/middle
dead ball = middle fingers
draw strokes = rear fingers
If thinking "this finger, those fingers" for different kinds of shots causes you to play them better, I think it's just because you are consciously setting up for the different kinds of shots and not because of different mechanics. I don't think any particular grip is better/worse for a particular kind of spin. I think it is a mistake for players to go down that path.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
in "banks that dont go, but do", Freddy Bentivegna touches on this

follow strokes = grip emphasis on index/middle
dead ball = middle fingers
draw strokes = rear fingers

or something along those lines. worth a watch.


edit:
lil clip of him talking about it on yt
Does he ever mention why draw bridge lengths should be short? Is it to allow a downward angle on the cue?
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If thinking "this finger, those fingers" for different kinds of shots causes you to play them better, I think it's just because you are consciously setting up for the different kinds of shots and not because of different mechanics. I don't think any particular grip is better/worse for a particular kind of spin. I think it is a mistake for players to go down that path.
If you back up the video and watch the whole thing the finger position is put into context along with the bridge length. I understand what he's getting at but I don't know why any of this matters. Of course, I'm just a ham and egg player looking for inspiration.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
to set up for a longer follow-through.
Which is necessary why? I'm not questioning whether he is right or not. I just learn better when I know why something is supposed to work. If the ultimate reason is to achiever higher cue velocity on contact, or to be accelerating during contact, etc. that is the important thing and might be achieved different ways.
 

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you back up the video and watch the whole thing the finger position is put into context along with the bridge length. I understand what he's getting at but I don't know why any of this matters. Of course, I'm just a ham and egg player looking for inspiration.
It doesn't.
 

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Does he ever mention why draw bridge lengths should be short? Is it to allow a downward angle on the cue?
He’s trying to describe in words his experience for each stroke. What I got, listening carefully, was that all his stroke lengths are about the same length.

The bridge length modifies how far past the cue ball the cue extends.

The grip reflects the point at which the contact is made based on that.

Short bridge means the grip is at a more advanced point in the swing path at contact and the cue length needs to follow farther forward since the shorter backswing starts farther forward.

So he senses the bridge to end of stroke distance as roughly the same length regardless of how high he strikes the ball.

His draw bridge is about 6 inches away and goes through about 4 inches.

He backs off another inch or two for center ball and now his center ball stroke only goes past contact an inch or two and his grip limits the stroke.

For follow his bridge length to stroke end is around 9-11 inches and since the cue ball has less resistance on higher hits it runs away immediately from contact be needs to end on a high note just through contact. The backswing behind the bridge is shorter than expected based on his description. A way of hitting accurately despite the longer bridge, is my guess.

I think his power strokes might mean adding a little stroke length, not necessarily bridge length.
 

JuanM

Active member
Which is necessary why? I'm not questioning whether he is right or not. I just learn better when I know why something is supposed to work. If the ultimate reason is to achiever higher cue velocity on contact, or to be accelerating during contact, etc. that is the important thing and might be achieved different ways.
idk, but one thing i have figured out. if i try to micromanage this stuff when im down, i can spectacularly miscue no matter the venue

playin around with it on a practice table, i see drastically different cueball reactions sometimes (especially with the deadball grip). tbh the part of my brain that would be tasked with figurin out drag coefficients and such is sorta busy keepin a wary eye on the nonthinkin side, hoping its keeping track of where everything is going.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
in "banks that dont go, but do", Freddy Bentivegna touches on this

follow strokes = grip emphasis on index/middle
dead ball = middle fingers
draw strokes = rear fingers

or something along those lines. worth a watch.


edit:
lil clip of him talking about it on yt
That's not the only odd thing Freddy had to say about grips - IIRC he also thought grip pressure should be customized for different banks.

pj <- but he could bank a little
chgo
 

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That's not the only odd thing Freddy had to say about grips - IIRC he also thought grip pressure should be customized for different banks.

pj <- but he could bank a little
chgo
I got that sense in his descriptions too. He talked about stopping the stroke and that requires either a tightening or running out of space for the cue hand. His draw description was also of a firmer grip.
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the grip is highly complex and hasn't been done justice by instructors. Usually the recommendation is to just keep the hand relaxed. Maybe it is because the grip is such an individual thing that it is hard to recommend a "one size fits all" instruction. To me, the goal is to deliver the cue straight and without any twisting. I might achieve that differently than you.
Dan White...Perhaps the only instructors you know haven't done the grip justice, but that's certainly not the case among the best instructors. I teach five ways to train your hand...one of them will work for all players. Most important issue is not to clench the cuestick as you accelerate the cue through the CB, rather than how you actually hold on to it. Cocked wrist is a recipe for mistakes. Anybody watching Brandon's videos should watch them with a grain of salt. He really is a laughing stock among many of the top instructors.

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I watch as much pool video as I can and they blow so many situations they must not have heard of top instructors.
 
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