Amateur and Professional Status

[Brookeland Bill]

I’ve played pool and gold for 60 of my 74 years. I am very familiar with both sports and in particular the amateur status of golfers based upon limitations on golfers to maintain amateur status (https://www.usga.org/rules-hub/amateur-status/amateur-status-faq-d8bb60a9.html). On issue with amateur status in golf is the prohibition of accepting prize money are a prize with a value in excess of $750. What is not clear to me is the distinction of amateur and professional status, if there is any distinction other declaring that you are an amateur or professional.

 

[garczar]

I’ve played pool and gold for 60 of my 74 years. I am very familiar with both sports and in particular the amateur status of golfers based upon limitations on golfers to maintain amateur status (https://www.usga.org/rules-hub/amateur-status/amateur-status-faq-d8bb60a9.html). On issue with amateur status in golf is the prohibition of accepting prize money are a prize with a value in excess of $750. What is not clear to me is the distinction of amateur and professional status, if there is any distinction other declaring that you are an amateur or professional.

You're a pro if you say you are. There is no clear pro/am distinction in pool.

 

[MitchAlsup]

In general, if you make "a substantial portion of" your living at some trade (such as playing pool) you are a professional. Golf is overly strict in this regard

 

[David in FL]

In general, if you make "a substantial portion of" your living at some trade (such as playing pool) you are a professional. Golf is overly strict in this regard

If that were applied to pool, there would be almost no professional pool players…

 

[Brookeland Bill]

In general, if you make "a substantial portion of" your living at some trade (such as playing pool) you are a professional. Golf is overly strict in this regard

As a regular at Bananas Billiards in San Antonio described it to me about ten years ago, a road players only possessions are his cue, case, pinky ring and a used car and any and all of them are subject to ending up in a pawn shop or back on a used car lot.

 

[iusedtoberich]

The reason no one cares in Pool about drawing the line between amateur and professional, is there is no money. The day that we have million dollar first place prizes, multiple times per year, is the day when we can't let an amateur play in a professional event, nor a professional play in an amateur event. When that day comes, there will be clear and concrete rules on who is a pro and who is an amateur.

Until then, a pro in pool is completely skill based, at their peak in life. So Danny Dilererto would be considered a pro today, because he was at the top level in his prime. The local B player will never be considered a pro, even if he enters the US Open every single year.

 

[jviss]

In my view the only importance of the distinction between professional and amateur players is to establish eligibility for amateur events. Amateur event organizers are appealing to those who do things other than the game at times, and appeal to a broad swath of the population that doesn't make the living from the game.

from wikipedia:

Amateur sports are sports in which participants engage largely or entirely without remuneration. The distinction is made between amateur sporting participants and professional sporting participants, who are paid for the time they spend competing and training. In the majority of sports which feature professional players, the professionals will participate at a higher standard of play than amateur competitors, as they can train full-time without the stress of having another job. The majority of worldwide sporting participants are amateurs.

Sporting amateurism was a zealously guarded ideal in the 19th century, especially among the upper classes, but faced steady erosion throughout the 20th century with the continuing growth of pro sports and monetisation of amateur and collegiate sports, and is now strictly held as an ideal by fewer and fewer organisations governing sports, even as they maintain the word "amateur" in their titles.

 

[MattPoland]

Because billiards isn’t organized, there is no answer. Professional-caliber, open and invitational events don’t care if there’s a line. I’m not sure WPA cares if there’s a line.

The only places that draw any kind of line is the amateur organizations and they seem to each approach it similarly. They decide based on their own subjective judgment based on who has vague “professional characteristics”. That can be anything from significant income from prize earnings, sponsorships, instruction, etc.

 

[jviss]

Because billiards isn’t organized,

I don't think the UPA would agree with you!

From wikipedia:

"The United States Professional Poolplayers Association (UPA) is the governing body for the sport of men's professional pool (pocket billiards) in the United States, as well as the organizer of a major national amateur league, and a variety of pro and amateur tournaments. The organization, now based in Manhattan,[1] was founded in January 2002 in Arizona by professional players,[2]> to replace several competing and dysfunctional men's professional pool organizations which had suffered years of problems such as inability to pay out winnings or to keep a stable schedule of competitions. "

"On the professional side, the Billiard Congress of America (BCA, the more general governing body for cue sports in North America, primarily focused on maintaining rule sets and records), which is the World Pool-Billiard Association (WPA) US-national affiliate, officially recognizes the UPA as the men's pro pool competition association for the United States,[2] making it the present counterpart of the Women's Professional Billiards Association (WPBA). On the amateur side, UPA is one of a half-dozen or so major national (and unisex) leagues."

I read one fairly complex set of criteria fro qualifying as amateur for one of their amateur tournaments. It goes like this:

"This event is designed for non-full time playing amateurs who do not play pool for a career. Note that below does not all apply to women.
Criteria for players:
You can play if you
· are not ranked in the top 50 in the UPA or the top 20 in WPBA
· have never been ranked in top 16 in WPA rankings
· have never won a men or womens major pro tournament
· have never won 1st or 2nd at a pro event in any country outside the USA
· have never finished in top 16 in any male pro tournament sanctioned by the current governing body of pro pool at that time(including any of the 3 divisions at Derby City Classic)
· never been ranked in top 5 or have never won 1st or 2nd in the finals on these following mens tours: FL Tour, Joss Northeast Tour, Planet Pool Tour, Viking Tour, Pechauer Tour, Fast Eddies Tour, Pro Senior Tour, Stan James Canada Tour,
· have never won 1st or 2nd in the finals of mens KBP event, the Super Billiards Expo Amateur Open,
· never been in the finals of the Mens BCA National Masters or Singles, or the APA National Amateur singles Championships
· Have not been Men or Women Players of the Years or finished #1 Ranked for the Year on any major recognized regional tour"

 

[gregcantrall]

I have claimed semi-pro. At that time I averaged $250 a week playing, maintaining my day job. In the Seattle Tacoma area I had multiple $5 tournaments every night of the week to choose from. If I was alone 3rd place was usually my nut. If my wife was along it took 2nd to break even. Some tournaments were soft enough that we took 1st and 2nd.

 

[briankenobi]

As have been stated already, there really isn't a set definition for "pro pool player" like there are in other singles sports. Sports where you have to qualify to get a tour card/pro card and such. Pro is more your level of play. However there are people who play and make all their money from pool but don't play at that level. Someone like Dr Cue gets all his money from pool put can't play regular pool at the levels of such players like Skylar and others. I would still consider Dr Cue a pro.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I don't think the UPA would agree with you!

From wikipedia:

"The United States Professional Poolplayers Association (UPA) is the governing body for the sport of men's professional pool (pocket billiards) in the United States, as well as the organizer of a major national amateur league, and a variety of pro and amateur tournaments. The organization, now based in Manhattan,[1] was founded in January 2002 in Arizona by professional players,[2]> to replace several competing and dysfunctional men's professional pool organizations which had suffered years of problems such as inability to pay out winnings or to keep a stable schedule of competitions. "

"On the professional side, the Billiard Congress of America (BCA, the more general governing body for cue sports in North America, primarily focused on maintaining rule sets and records), which is the World Pool-Billiard Association (WPA) US-national affiliate, officially recognizes the UPA as the men's pro pool competition association for the United States,[2] making it the present counterpart of the Women's Professional Billiards Association (WPBA). On the amateur side, UPA is one of a half-dozen or so major national (and unisex) leagues."

I read one fairly complex set of criteria fro qualifying as amateur for one of their amateur tournaments. It goes like this:

"This event is designed for non-full time playing amateurs who do not play pool for a career. Note that below does not all apply to women.
Criteria for players:
You can play if you
· are not ranked in the top 50 in the UPA or the top 20 in WPBA
· have never been ranked in top 16 in WPA rankings
· have never won a men or womens major pro tournament
· have never won 1st or 2nd at a pro event in any country outside the USA
· have never finished in top 16 in any male pro tournament sanctioned by the current governing body of pro pool at that time(including any of the 3 divisions at Derby City Classic)
· never been ranked in top 5 or have never won 1st or 2nd in the finals on these following mens tours: FL Tour, Joss Northeast Tour, Planet Pool Tour, Viking Tour, Pechauer Tour, Fast Eddies Tour, Pro Senior Tour, Stan James Canada Tour,
· have never won 1st or 2nd in the finals of mens KBP event, the Super Billiards Expo Amateur Open,
· never been in the finals of the Mens BCA National Masters or Singles, or the APA National Amateur singles Championships
· Have not been Men or Women Players of the Years or finished #1 Ranked for the Year on any major recognized regional tour"

UPA?! Is this a joke post? UPA died 20 years ago. Charlie stood with a megaphone at a big tournament in Philly demanding every player pay him $100 for the yearly dues. I saw it with my own eyes. Another one of Charlie's efforts.

 

[KissedOut]

I’ve played pool and gold for 60 of my 74 years. I am very familiar with both sports and in particular the amateur status of golfers based upon limitations on golfers to maintain amateur status (https://www.usga.org/rules-hub/amateur-status/amateur-status-faq-d8bb60a9.html). On issue with amateur status in golf is the prohibition of accepting prize money are a prize with a value in excess of $750. What is not clear to me is the distinction of amateur and professional status, if there is any distinction other declaring that you are an amateur or professional.

There isn't any because pool does not have a widely recognized governing body to make or enforce rules.

 

[KissedOut]

The reason no one cares in Pool about drawing the line between amateur and professional, is there is no money. The day that we have million dollar first place prizes, multiple times per year, is the day when we can't let an amateur play in a professional event, nor a professional play in an amateur event. When that day comes, there will be clear and concrete rules on who is a pro and who is an amateur.

Until then, a pro in pool is completely skill based, at their peak in life. So Danny Dilererto would be considered a pro today, because he was at the top level in his prime. The local B player will never be considered a pro, even if he enters the US Open every single year.

I don't get it. There should be no problem with an amateur playing in a pro event if he qualifies. Phil Mickleson's first PGAtour win was as an amateur. He just didn't get the money.

OTOH, money really can't be an issue with not letting a pro play in an am event because a proper am event has little or no money involved. A pro has nothing to gain, financially, by playing in an am event.

Since unlike golf there is no widely recognized governing body to make rules, anyone is free to apply their own definition. But I think that the "common-law" definition that a professional is someone who makes his living from the sport. I think a definition based on skill level really doesn't what professional, in the broader context, means. When you look at skill level I think we are really talking about descriptors like proficient, expert, even world class. But professional has always meant living by the profession in a wide variety of contexts.

 

[KissedOut]

I don't think the UPA would agree with you!

From wikipedia:

"The United States Professional Poolplayers Association (UPA) is the governing body for the sport of men's professional pool (pocket billiards) in the United States, as well as the organizer of a major national amateur league, and a variety of pro and amateur tournaments. The organization, now based in Manhattan,[1] was founded in January 2002 in Arizona by professional players,[2]> to replace several competing and dysfunctional men's professional pool organizations which had suffered years of problems such as inability to pay out winnings or to keep a stable schedule of competitions. "

"On the professional side, the Billiard Congress of America (BCA, the more general governing body for cue sports in North America, primarily focused on maintaining rule sets and records), which is the World Pool-Billiard Association (WPA) US-national affiliate, officially recognizes the UPA as the men's pro pool competition association for the United States,[2] making it the present counterpart of the Women's Professional Billiards Association (WPBA). On the amateur side, UPA is one of a half-dozen or so major national (and unisex) leagues."

I read one fairly complex set of criteria fro qualifying as amateur for one of their amateur tournaments. It goes like this:

"This event is designed for non-full time playing amateurs who do not play pool for a career. Note that below does not all apply to women.
Criteria for players:
You can play if you
· are not ranked in the top 50 in the UPA or the top 20 in WPBA
· have never been ranked in top 16 in WPA rankings
· have never won a men or womens major pro tournament
· have never won 1st or 2nd at a pro event in any country outside the USA
· have never finished in top 16 in any male pro tournament sanctioned by the current governing body of pro pool at that time(including any of the 3 divisions at Derby City Classic)
· never been ranked in top 5 or have never won 1st or 2nd in the finals on these following mens tours: FL Tour, Joss Northeast Tour, Planet Pool Tour, Viking Tour, Pechauer Tour, Fast Eddies Tour, Pro Senior Tour, Stan James Canada Tour,
· have never won 1st or 2nd in the finals of mens KBP event, the Super Billiards Expo Amateur Open,
· never been in the finals of the Mens BCA National Masters or Singles, or the APA National Amateur singles Championships
· Have not been Men or Women Players of the Years or finished #1 Ranked for the Year on any major recognized regional tour"

It's not widely accepted.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... "The United States Professional Poolplayers Association (UPA) is the governing body for the sport of men's professional pool (pocket billiards) in the United States, ...

That's been false for a long time. I think the UPA is no longer functioning at all as a pro organization. They had amateur leagues after that, but it appears from their website that nothing has happened in the past year.

 

[michael4]

......On issue with amateur status in golf is the prohibition of accepting prize money are a prize with a value in excess of $750. ......

Correct, and in pool, if you have a cue with a value in excess of $750, you are generally considered a pro

 

[MattPoland]

I don't think the UPA would agree with you!

I don’t think reality agrees with UPA.

 

[garczar]

What's the difference in a large pizza and a pro pool player?? The pizza might feed a family of four.

 

[jviss]

Oh,well! So much for pool in the U.S., I guess.