Pre shot question

[Charles Hartfield]

I posted this in the main forum but couldn’t get a definite answer so I thought I would ask here for the instructors. When I watch the pros play, some of them get directly behind the object ball and the pocket before they go back behind the cue ball to set up for the shot. Why do they do this? The only guess I have is that they are determining the contact point on the object ball. Thank you in advance for the reply’s.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I posted this in the main forum but couldn’t get a definite answer so I thought I would ask here for the instructors. When I watch the pros play, some of them get directly behind the object ball and the pocket before they go back behind the cue ball to set up for the shot. Why do they do this? The only guess I have is that they are determining the contact point on the object ball. Thank you in advance for the reply’s.

That's usually why.

They may also be checking to be sure there's a clear path for the OB to the pocket, visualizing the tangent line, etc. - but far less often I think.

That's my non-pro answer - for a pro's perspective I'll defer to Fran.

pj
chgo

 

[straightline]

There's no one <why> to competitive behavior. Finding their marks is just one possible reason. Milking their inning time is another. There is that guy still sitting down you know. Fear of screwing up is another. There's a lot real AND imagined going on there.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Besides the points already covered, I find it helps in visualizing the shot. In particular you can see the entry to the pocket and get a better feel for the cut angle.

 

[FranCrimi]

I posted an answer but then I took it back because I'm wondering if I understood your question. By standing behind the ob and the pocket, do you mean standing behind the ob looking at the pocket or standing behind the pocket, looking at the ob?

 

[Charles Hartfield]

I posted an answer but then I took it back because I'm wondering if I understood your question. By standing behind the ob and the pocket, do you mean standing behind the ob looking at the pocket or standing behind the pocket, looking at the ob?

Standing behind the object ball looking at the pocket.

 

[Imac007]

I posted this in the main forum but couldn’t get a definite answer so I thought I would ask here for the instructors. When I watch the pros play, some of them get directly behind the object ball and the pocket before they go back behind the cue ball to set up for the shot. Why do they do this? The only guess I have is that they are determining the contact point on the object ball. Thank you in advance for the reply’s.

From the cue ball you can estimate where the contact point on the object is located. Holding that spot visually as you move into place looking along the object ball to pocket line you can see how accurate your perception was. Note any differences from the original estimate. Now focus on the pocket line and bring your attention back to the cue ball. A line parallel to the object ball line drawn through the cue ball exits the cue ball front and is the cue ball contact point. Once you are sensing that exit point with your tip hover, pivot from that point to the fine tuned perception of the object ball contact point. With the cue pointing from contact point to contact point a parallel shift of the cue to cue ball center gives you the ghost ball line. That is a reference line. You need to learn to adjust from there to pocket balls and get position. Starting from the same reference point, shot after shot, allows a library of adjustments and effects to be learned, a skill set.

 

[FranCrimi]

Standing behind the object ball looking at the pocket.

OK, thanks. I just wanted to make sure I understood. Here's my response:

I can't imagine not doing that. Without doing that you're just guessing. You're guessing what the contact point is, you're guessing what the pocket opening looks like from the perspective of the ob, you're guessing the distance the ob has to travel to get to the pocket, you're guessing the best pocket speed for the shot, you're guessing that the path to the pocket is completely clear.

Good players know that looking at a particular path from a different angle presents a distorted view. Often times just standing over the cb isn't good enough for an accurate picture. That's why you'll see the pros in constant motion around the table. They're taking in the shot lines from the proper perspectives.

Occasionally you will see a pro bypass that step, but it's only because he's clear on all the things I wrote above. Maybe the angle isn't that much and he can see it simply by leaning a little left or right as he stands behind the cb when assessing the shot, or maybe the shot is so easy and straight forward that he could shoot it with his eyes closed.

But in any other instance, why guess?

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I posted this in the main forum but couldn’t get a definite answer so I thought I would ask here for the instructors. When I watch the pros play, some of them get directly behind the object ball and the pocket before they go back behind the cue ball to set up for the shot. Why do they do this? The only guess I have is that they are determining the contact point on the object ball. Thank you in advance for the reply’s.

I call the shortest line between the cue and object balls "the full line":

1) Standing on the full line is excellent for finding the contact point, particularly when you stand perpendicular to it (you typically walk straight toward spots to sight on them) - no one walks toward a distant door with their head tilted/rotated on their neck as in the full pool stance for shooting

2) Some get down/stance onto the full line then cue at the contact point for a highly consistent frame of reference for aiming and stroking

3) Regardless of final stance position, standing in the same spot for each and every pre-shot routine leads to consistent aiming and sighting

Weaker players tend to stand on the full line in the pre-shot routine, with their head tilted rather that perpendicular to the full line, then they tend as a result to line up to overcut shots, which causes quite a few issues with their game. As Fran wrote, a pro can bypass standing perpendicular to the balls due to intense skill sets.

 

[The_JV]

No pro instructor here, but I was exposed to that methodology back in my snooker days, and I still use it on occassion playing pool.

Something that hasn't been touched on, and maybe isn't relavent beyond my game, but I use the OB / pocket line (I call it the 'cut line') as a guide when I'm potting into a 'blind pocket'. Meaning a pocket that I cannot see without shifting my head or eyes a great deal. It doesn't happen very often, but I'll sight the 'cut line' in the same method described by the OP, but only fixate on the first 12" or so as I address the CB. I know if I make the OB follow that 12" line I'll pot the ball.

I can't say whether or not the pros do what I have described as well, but it helps my game.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

From the cue ball you can estimate where the contact point on the object is located. Holding that spot visually as you move into place looking along the object ball to pocket line you can see how accurate your perception was. Note any differences from the original estimate.

As a contact point aimer, I don't do this "crosscheck" often enough. I'm very practiced at "seeing" the OB contact point from the CB's position, so even if I'm a little off, at least it's consistent enough to work for me. But I want to hit the target I think I'm aiming at without subconscious steering, so I have to get back into practicing the crosscheck.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I use the OB / pocket line (I call it the 'cut line') as a guide when I'm potting into a 'blind pocket'.

I do the same, but just imagine the pocket in my peripheral vision - probably very much like your line. These back cuts are top candidates for walking around and looking at the OB>pocket line to crosscheck your visualization.

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

I call the shortest line between the cue and object balls "the full line":

1) Standing on the full line is excellent for finding the contact point, particularly when you stand perpendicular to it (you typically walk straight toward spots to sight on them) - no one walks toward a distant door with their head tilted/rotated on their neck as in the full pool stance for shooting

2) Some get down/stance onto the full line then cue at the contact point for a highly consistent frame of reference for aiming and stroking

3) Regardless of final stance position, standing in the same spot for each and every pre-shot routine leads to consistent aiming and sighting

Weaker players tend to stand on the full line in the pre-shot routine, with their head tilted rather that perpendicular to the full line, then they tend as a result to line up to overcut shots, which causes quite a few issues with their game. As Fran wrote, a pro can bypass standing perpendicular to the balls due to intense skill sets.

Wait a minute, wait a minute....are you sure you understand the question and are you sure you understand my response to that question?

 

[straightline]

The OP only wanted to know why people walked over and checked.

As a contact point aimer, I don't do this "crosscheck" often enough. I'm very practiced at "seeing" the OB contact point from the CB's position, so even if I'm a little off, at least it's consistent enough to work for me. But I want to hit the target I think I'm aiming at without subconscious steering, so I have to get back into practicing the crosscheck.

There are all kinds of absolutes to look at from the shooting location. Carom tangent is right there on thin ones. Tangent across the visible face of the ball to its destination (ghost pocket?) is another. You can use the hidden face as if it were on a cushion too... Third eye the pocket etc...

 

[FranCrimi]

The OP only wanted to know why people walked over and checked.


There are all kinds of absolutes to look at from the shooting location. Carom tangent is right there on thin ones. Tangent across the visible face of the ball to its destination (ghost pocket?) is another. You can use the hidden face as if it were on a cushion too... Third eye the pocket etc...

I'm sorry.... I don't understand any of this. How can the OP and others benefit from an answer written like this?

 

[The_JV]

From the cue ball you can estimate where the contact point on the object is located. Holding that spot visually as you move into place looking along the object ball to pocket line you can see how accurate your perception was. Note any differences from the original estimate. Now focus on the pocket line and bring your attention back to the cue ball. A line parallel to the object ball line drawn through the cue ball exits the cue ball front and is the cue ball contact point. Once you are sensing that exit point with your tip hover, pivot from that point to the fine tuned perception of the object ball contact point. With the cue pointing from contact point to contact point a parallel shift of the cue to cue ball center gives you the ghost ball line. That is a reference line. You need to learn to adjust from there to pocket balls and get position. Starting from the same reference point, shot after shot, allows a library of adjustments and effects to be learned, a skill set.

I've reread this a couple of times, and man it seems complicated... That said, you're most likely just writting down what I take for granted....lol

Risking a conversation I'm going to pull a few items out of context and compare to my own practices.

1:
-"From the cue ball you can estimate where the contact point on the object is located. Holding that spot visually as you move into place looking along the object ball to pocket line you can see how accurate your perception was."
I don't do this... If I have determined that a shot requires that I take the time to assess it from the "pocket line". Then I discount the original 'estimate' from the CB point of view. For me it's just noise in the equation.

2:
-"Now focus on the pocket line and bring your attention back to the cue ball. A line parallel to the object ball line drawn through the cue ball exits the cue ball front and is the cue ball contact point. Once you are sensing that exit point with your tip hover, pivot from that point to the fine tuned perception of the object ball contact point. With the cue pointing from contact point to contact point a parallel shift of the cue to cue ball center gives you the ghost ball line. That is a reference line."
You lose me at the second sentence, and head starts spinning as I read the third...lol. Why is there two lines from the CB to the OB...? ...and how can they be parallel...? The CB center is a pivot point to any line the CB may follow. I think we're agreeing on that part. Maybe there's an aiming system at play here that I'm unaware of...?

My approach uses the 'pocket line', and a ghost ball preception of CB/OB contact to follow that 'pocket line'. Once I know where the CB needs to strike the OB, I create the 'ghost ball line'. I then perform my PSR to address that 'ghost ball line'. That's 90% of what's going on.

3:
-"That is a reference line. You need to learn to adjust from there to pocket balls and get position. Starting from the same reference point, shot after shot, allows a library of adjustments and effects to be learned, a skill set."
I duplicated the 'reference line' comment purposely, because I think it relative to both the individual quotes...
You perform some kind of parallel shift from the 'ghost ball line' to this 'reference line'. For me there are one and the same. At least I believe they are. Once I have my 'ghost ball line' I'll fine tune for all the fun stuff that makes this game more complicated then it should be. Applied spin, cut induced throw... etc.

Please don't take the above efforts as criticism or something cynical. I'm just trying to understand your approach to the game, and how it compares to mine.

It seems to me, like we arrive at the same point eventually, with your 'reference line'. Even though I consider it something different (your 'ghost line') and you seem to have some additional steps in reaching that point that I'm having a hard time following. Again, maybe I'm doing this parallel shift thing subconsciously, but I'm pretty deliberate in developing my shots and PSR, so if I have been doing this parallel shift I've always been 100% oblivious to it...lol

 

[straightline]

I'm sorry.... I don't understand any of this. How can the OP and others benefit from an answer written like this?

It is what it is. References you can see from the shooting position and that's without balls sectioning things off for you. Poolers should be able to extract abstract content - you know, layouts etc... I figure, clearly defined nounage is plenty for a thread comment.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Wait a minute, wait a minute....are you sure you understand the question and are you sure you understand my response to that question?

I see the OP is about the object ball and pocket. For which a straight line view would be good for a contact point check, of course.

I apologize for the error.

 

[FranCrimi]

It is what it is. References you can see from the shooting position and that's without balls sectioning things off for you. Poolers should be able to extract abstract content - you know, layouts etc... I figure, clearly defined nounage is plenty for a thread comment.

It is what it is? Then what is it? LOL What's a "carom tangent?" What's a "thin one?" What's a "ghost pocket?" What's a "third eye pocket?" How do you use the "hidden face" of a ball as if it were a cushion? Did I just enter the Twilight Zone or am I just not up on all the latest terminology?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I figure, clearly defined nounage is plenty for a thread comment.

Try clearly defining some of your "nounage" (or better yet, use common "nounage") - then more of us might be able to appreciate your insights.

pj
chgo