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one stroke 09-25-2019 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pt109 (Post 6483965)
Iíll assume you meant Ďacceptedí....
...so what do you think of snooker refs cleaning any ball on demand?....usually the cue ball.
Or golfers cleaning their ball on the green?

In 9-ball tournaments, I clean whitey with my cue towel every time I break....
...is that cheating?

Chalk flies when pool is played....wanting more pristine conditions shouldnít be a problem.
....although you and Lou seem to think so

Not a big fan of it but that's Apples and Oranges ,
If I'm trying to break the most free throw record would it count if I made the rim bigger and used a woman's basketball ball ?

1

pt109 09-25-2019 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by one stroke (Post 6483998)
Not a big fan of it but that's Apples and Oranges ,
If I'm trying to break the most free throw record would it count if I made the rim bigger and used a woman's basketball ball ?

1

Not sure what you mean here...are you implying that JS played on pockets unfairly big
compared to the table Willie played on?

one stroke 09-25-2019 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pt109 (Post 6483994)
A young Alex....about 21 years old...we were in a room in western NY....
....he played a 200 ball runner from NYC...to 150 for a couple hundred.
They agreed to quit at one apiece....the table and balls looked like they hadnít been
cleaned for a month....NOBODY RAN THIRTY IN THOSE TWO GAMES.

If anybody wants to keep playing as everything gets dirtier...they donít like the game enough.

That may be true today but it certainly wasn't true in the 14-1 era even if they hand wiped balls it still is not the same as cleaning the balls in a ball cleaner with polish never mind the cue ball doctoring I hear about , maybe Lou can shed light on these effects

1

one stroke 09-25-2019 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pt109 (Post 6484006)
Not sure what you mean here...are you implying that JS played on pockets unfairly big
compared to the table Willie played on?

I haven't seen the table to measure pockets and shelves but certainly a new cloth on today's tables make them play much easier we see it all the time balls kisses the rail a diamond or better up and still goes ,,
Look it's a great feat no matter how you cut it up , I wish the circumstances were duplicated as close to possible but the were not ,
So to me yes JS has the record on that table at that time but that's his record, he really set his own record
He didn't break Willies record because it wasn't on the same table size and conditions period ,,

1

jrctherake 09-25-2019 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lfigueroa (Post 6483974)
Well, when I speak of cleaning the balls I'm talking about cleaning them not because there's a speck of chalk on a particular ball, I'm talking about the practice of polishing 14 balls *with the intent* of giving the shooter a better spread on subsequent break shots and doing it *over and over* during a run to that particular end.

The mountain should get steeper the higher you go. That's part of what makes it an achievement to get to the summit. Polishing them up every few racks is putting an escalator on Mt. Everest.

BTW, I should add that, not having seen the video, I have absolutely no idea whether any of this happens during the 626. I was just speaking to the point in a general kinda way.

Lou Figueroa

Lou, I agree, when playing 14.1 the ob nor the cb should be polished "after" the initial break shot, only before the first inning.

After the initial break, IMO, the balls can "wiped down" with a clean towel but not polished again.

Having said that, I'm not a fan of using polish. Sure, the rack opens easier, especially later in high runs but, to me balls bank unpredictability when polished and my runs, even in my best runs, I usually end up having to bank a ball or two to keep it going and polished balls and me don't get along when banking.

If I could get into 20+ racks without having to bank even one ball, I may feel that polish was ok since my odds would be higher. I quit dreaming that pipe dream long ago since my lifetime high run is half of that.

Once a banger always a banger....yep, thats me but, I sure do like to play sir.

Jeff

Black-Balled 09-25-2019 06:15 PM

What are you nutballs talking about now?

Making up rules after play is over.

626. Likely done. Get on with your day.

I went 65+ mph on a bicycle. Plenty of pros say their max is 60. You think I walka round smiling about that?

one stroke 09-25-2019 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black-Balled (Post 6484025)
What are you nutballs talking about now?

Making up rules after play is over.

626. Likely done. Get on with your day.

I went 65+ mph on a bicycle. Plenty of pros say their max is 60. You think I walka round smiling about that?

lol I go 30 miles at 20 mph on the beach thru the hills and on the trails never peddling loving my rad mini lol

1

one stroke 09-25-2019 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrctherake (Post 6484020)
Lou, I agree, when playing 14.1 the ob nor the cb should be polished "after" the initial break shot, only before the first inning.

After the initial break, IMO, the balls can "wiped down" with a clean towel but not polished again.

Having said that, I'm not a fan of using polish. Sure, the rack opens easier, especially later in high runs but, to me balls bank unpredictability when polished and my runs, even in my best runs, I usually end up having to bank a ball or two to keep it going and polished balls and me don't get along when banking.

If I could get into 20+ racks without having to bank even one ball, I may feel that polish was ok since my odds would be higher. I quit dreaming that pipe dream long ago since my lifetime high run is half of that.

Once a banger always a banger....yep, thats me but, I sure do like to play sir.

Jeff

Having watched Bobby Chamberlian practice countless times I've never seen him clean or wipe down balls ever during a run ever , he just doesn't believe in his mind it counts if he does that ,

1

jimmyg 09-25-2019 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by one stroke (Post 6484009)
That may be true today but it certainly wasn't true in the 14-1 era even if they hand wiped balls it still is not the same as cleaning the balls in a ball cleaner with polish never mind the cue ball doctoring I hear about , maybe Lou can shed light on these effects

1

Do you know whether it was just the cue that was cleaned and polished, or was it the entire set? Or how often were they cleaned?

Some people are "purists" and if all the balls were polished before every break, that would be quite an advantage...balls spread more and tend not to cluster nearly as easily. Some may say a huge and unfair advantage.

I was fortunate enough to have grown up in NYC during the heyday of straight pool, loved the game and played it hours a day, every day, for years.
Watched one of the greats run his daily hundred many a time...and other than an occasional chalk smudge on the cue ball, cannot recall him, or anyone else, ever cleaning balls just for the purpose of helping the spread and increasing the run, nor would another 300 plus ball runner that I much later had the privilege of playing with regularly.

If this "record" was set with the continual use of a ball cleaner/polisher on the cue ball I would have to believe that the run can easily be considered tainted, if the entire set of balls was continually cleaned/polished, I cannot give it near the respect that some others seem to think it deserves. JMHO

Z-Nole 09-25-2019 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black-Balled (Post 6484025)
What are you nutballs talking about now?

Making up rules after play is over.

626. Likely done. Get on with your day.

I went 65+ mph on a bicycle. Plenty of pros say their max is 60. You think I walka round smiling about that?

Downhill still counts.

pt109 09-25-2019 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black-Balled (Post 6484025)
What are you nutballs talking about now?

Making up rules after play is over.

626. Likely done. Get on with your day.

I went 65+ mph on a bicycle. Plenty of pros say their max is 60. You think I walka round smiling about that?

Speed is relative....Iíve gone 30 mph sitting in a racing bike behind a pacer.

JazzyJeff87 09-25-2019 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmyg (Post 6484048)
Do you know whether it was just the cue that was cleaned and polished, or was it the entire set? Or how often were they cleaned?

Some people are "purists" and if all the balls were polished before every break, that would be quite an advantage...balls spread more and tend not to cluster nearly as easily. Some may say a huge and unfair advantage.

I was fortunate enough to have grown up in NYC during the heyday of straight pool, loved the game and played it hours a day, every day, for years.
Watched one of the greats run his daily hundred many a time...and other than an occasional chalk smudge on the cue ball, cannot recall him, or anyone else, ever cleaning balls just for the purpose of helping the spread and increasing the run, nor would another 300 plus ball runner that I much later had the privilege of playing with regularly.

If this "record" was set with the continual use of a ball cleaner/polisher on the cue ball I would have to believe that the run can easily be considered tainted, if the entire set of balls was continually cleaned/polished, I cannot give it near the respect that some others seem to think it deserves. JMHO


Itís all speculation right now but what I saw in some of his other high runs was that after running a hundred or more, maybe over 2 hundred, he got 14 balls in the rack and then rubbed a towel over the top of them and sorta moved the rack around to get at all sides. Not polishing just wiping the grime.

If heís ever taken them off the table to put in a polishing machine I havenít seen it but admittedly I havenít watched many of his attempts over the last year.

If he did take them off and literally polish them during a run Iíd maybe snicker a bit.

DynoDan 09-25-2019 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmyg (Post 6484048)
Do you know whether it was just the cue that was cleaned and polished, or was it the entire set? Or how often were they cleaned?

Some people are "purists" and if all the balls were polished before every break, that would be quite an advantage...balls spread more and tend not to cluster nearly as easily. Some may say a huge and unfair advantage.

I was fortunate enough to have grown up in NYC during the heyday of straight pool, loved the game and played it hours a day, every day, for years.
Watched one of the greats run his daily hundred many a time...and other than an occasional chalk smudge on the cue ball, cannot recall him, or anyone else, ever cleaning balls just for the purpose of helping the spread and increasing the run, nor would another 300 plus ball runner that I much later had the privilege of playing with regularly.

If this "record" was set with the continual use of a ball cleaner/polisher on the cue ball I would have to believe that the run can easily be considered tainted, if the entire set of balls was continually cleaned/polished, I cannot give it near the respect that some others seem to think it deserves. JMHO

I think it likely, that Willie was able to run over 500 un-cleaned balls only because, on a smaller public table with Ďbucketí drop pockets (AND of course his super-natural positional skill), he was able to hit every cut shot hard enough to defeat the inevitable Ďskidí that ends most runs (?).

jimmyg 09-25-2019 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmyg View Post
Do you know whether it was just the cue that was cleaned and polished, or was it the entire set? Or how often were they cleaned?

Some people are "purists" and if all the balls were polished before every break, that would be quite an advantage...balls spread more and tend not to cluster nearly as easily. Some may say a huge and unfair advantage.

I was fortunate enough to have grown up in NYC during the heyday of straight pool, loved the game and played it hours a day, every day, for years.
Watched one of the greats run his daily hundred many a time...and other than an occasional chalk smudge on the cue ball, cannot recall him, or anyone else, ever cleaning balls just for the purpose of helping the spread and increasing the run, nor would another 300 plus ball runner that I much later had the privilege of playing with regularly.

If this "record" was set with the continual use of a ball cleaner/polisher on the cue ball I would have to believe that the run can easily be considered tainted, if the entire set of balls was continually cleaned/polished, I cannot give it near the respect that some others seem to think it deserves. JMHO
Quote:

Originally Posted by DynoDan (Post 6484057)
I think it likely, that Willie was able to run over 500 un-cleaned balls only because, on a smaller public table with Ďbucketí drop pockets (AND of course his super-natural positional skill), he was able to hit every cut shot hard enough to defeat the inevitable Ďskidí that ends most runs (?).

It's not just Willie, it's the dozens of elite straight pool players, none of which, to my knowledge, cleaned/polished balls during their high runs. One can say "it's cheating" if they wanted to and it would be difficult to argue with. IMO.

ShootingArts 09-25-2019 09:18 PM

unnecessary breaks to clean balls seems a little bogus
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmyg (Post 6484070)
It's not just Willie, it's the dozens of elite straight pool players, none of which, to my knowledge, cleaned/polished balls during their high runs. One can say "it's cheating" if they wanted to and it would be difficult to argue with. IMO.


I read that the balls were cleaned. I thought that meant in a cleaner but I don't know. If there were pauses just to clean the balls, was that a continuous run? john did a handful of things to help his runs, most admitted to. Did he juice the balls a little? Maybe, but we will probably never know. I have always felt it was an unfair advantage for john and his friends to use a different set of balls at the derby than anyone else in the high run challenge. I wasn't involved, I kept my mouth shut. I have to say I would have been pretty noisy if I was there and had put my dollars up! Indicates to me that john doesn't mind shaving the dice if he can.

I think that john shaved the dice every way he could chasing the record too. It is a done deal now and most will accept the record, a few will be dubious. My math only had four or five people watching in the early claims and some of them were involved with getting the business ready to open. Even if we accept the eight people counted, we have to think they did not match the continuous observation that was claimed on Willie's affidavit. Truth be told, I think that Willie's number is suspiciously high. However, out of thirty-seven people I suspect a few watched every minute of play and quite a few more had overlapping witnessing of the run so that it was observed at all times. Were eight people watching every minute of john's run with bait on their breath? Were they all around the table like thirty-seven would be or were they all on one side even when watching. Same thing with a camera. I haven't seen the viewing angle but the one described could miss a lot.

john pocketed 626 balls. Whether it was what anyone including john would consider a legal run we will never know. An exhibition with the hall closed for most of the exhibition kinda stretches the meaning of the word! john's method of chasing the record made it very boring for onlookers, I doubt more than a few 14.1 die hards actually watched for much more thirty minutes at a stretch.

Some throwing around that 20% of AZB active members will purchase a video is a stretch in my opinion. I would bet it will be closer to 2% than 20%. I bought john's first DVD offered, a 247 ball run. It remains the only straight pool video I purchased and I only did that to support john. I watched it when I got it and again six months or so later. Haven't seen the DVD in ages, I think it has been consigned to the big trash heap in the sky!

Hu


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