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-   -   This is why we can't have nice things (https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=500069)

hang-the-9 09-26-2019 09:15 AM

This is why we can't have nice things
 
Players are gaming the Fargo ratings with dumping cheaper events to cash easier in the larger tournaments. I am beginning to think this whole idea of a fair handicapped tournament or league does not exist due to cheaters. Someone always finds a way no matter how you try to make handicapping fair. I may be down to playing in one tournament that is not handicapped and charity stuff.

Probably the only fair way to do handicaps is if you get assigned a handicap by the person that is running the tournament that knows how you play in relation to others there. Aside from that, those that cheat win, automated systems rely on good information, which many seem to be against giving.

metallicane 09-26-2019 09:19 AM

Never understood cheating. Your integrity is about all you have.

garczar 09-26-2019 09:26 AM

No system will ever totally stop s'bagging but Fargo is overall a very good system. In 40yrs of playing its the FIRST h'capping system i've seen that is accurate(after enuff games) and portable. No more "this place does this, that place does that" crap. In my area, OkC-Tulsa-KC-Wichita, there are more tournaments now than in the last 20yrs. easy. In Tulsa-OkC you can almost play a tournament-a-day depending on your FR.

gypsy_soul 09-26-2019 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hang-the-9 (Post 6484372)
Players are gaming the Fargo ratings with dumping cheaper events to cash easier in the larger tournaments. I am beginning to think this whole idea of a fair handicapped tournament or league does not exist due to cheaters. Someone always finds a way no matter how you try to make handicapping fair. I may be down to playing in one tournament that is not handicapped and charity stuff.

Probably the only fair way to do handicaps is if you get assigned a handicap by the person that is running the tournament that knows how you play in relation to others there. Aside from that, those that cheat win, automated systems rely on good information, which many seem to be against giving.


Well just play tournaments with no handicaps. Iíve never played a single handicapped tournament in my life . Makes it tough to win but at least itís an even playing field! Fargo sucks .

newcuer 09-26-2019 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hang-the-9 (Post 6484372)
Players are gaming the Fargo ratings with dumping cheaper events to cash easier in the larger tournaments.

As with all alleged sandbagging...this seems like a lot of work for little gain. Are you sure you are not getting this vibe from players who just lose but have to excuse their defeats by claiming to be sandbagging? You might be right, but more than sandbagging, I see a lot people who try to claim they are sandbagging to boost their egos.

Bob Jewett 09-26-2019 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hang-the-9 (Post 6484372)
Players are gaming the Fargo ratings with dumping cheaper events to cash easier in the larger tournaments. I am beginning to think this whole idea of a fair handicapped tournament or league does not exist due to cheaters. Someone always finds a way no matter how you try to make handicapping fair. I may be down to playing in one tournament that is not handicapped and charity stuff.

Probably the only fair way to do handicaps is if you get assigned a handicap by the person that is running the tournament that knows how you play in relation to others there. Aside from that, those that cheat win, automated systems rely on good information, which many seem to be against giving.

Do you have a specific example of this? If so you should send it to Mike.

But some care is needed before you start making accusations. Are you sure it isn't just that the players are more up for the larger events?

The general problem with looking back on a tournament is that whoever wins it was probably playing above or well above their average level. They may appear to have been sandbagging but they just happened to have a good day. It has to happen to someone.

sjm 09-26-2019 09:27 AM

Unfortunately, sandbagging is profitable, and not just in pool. It's a huge issue in golf, too, where handicaps can easily be manipulated. Where there's a profit to be had, whether it's golf or pool, some will always choose to work the system/

I don't expect the problem to be eliminated in the imaginable future, but that said, I admire those organizations like Fargo to offer the best possible ratings they can and feel strongly they are adding an enormous amount of value to our sport.

Unless you are a pro whose livelihood is tied to tournament earnings, I think to opt out of all handicapped tournaments just because of this undisputed reality is an overreaction that will cause you to miss out on some good times and experiences.

By the way, pros work the system, too. At the IPT in 2006-07, each stage was round robin and there were countless opportunities to manipulate scores and matches to help a friend advance to the next stage.

Bob Jewett 09-26-2019 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newcuer (Post 6484382)
As with all alleged sandbagging...this seems like a lot of work for little gain. ...

Or sometimes no gain. We use a Fargo-like system around here (and have for about 20 years) and early on two buddies figured out how to sandbag. They would just lose all their matches in the little weekly tournaments and then cash in the semi-annual money-added tournament. They showed up at the big event and when they went to sign up they were told the equivalent of, "No, you're not a 600, you're a 680 here. Do you still want to play?"

DelawareDogs 09-26-2019 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metallicane (Post 6484376)
Never understood cheating. Your integrity is about all you have.

Pool players cheating?? Get outta town! Well, for people without integrity who are doing this, they might have a little extra money in their pockets too....... and I know tons of pool players that lack integrity haha.

To the OP: "Probably the only fair way to do handicaps"............. in my opinion is to not do handicaps. Hardly anyone is going to agree with that, but I'll stand behind it.

Yes, tournaments would lose a ton of entrants if handicaps weren't around. Lower level players that know they can't beat the brass will walk. Heck, some great players will walk if a monster comes and signs up.

My thought is: oh well...... if you need to have a game handicapped so that you can win, you don't need a handicap. You need to hit that practice room and figure out how ur gonna beat 'em.......

I'd take an even game against Tommy Kennedy in a tournament knowing I better come with it, long before I'll be comfortable with getting 3 on the wire going to 7, and praying I can steal........ what a damn shame....

336Robin 09-26-2019 09:35 AM

Fargo Handicapping?
 
No disrespect to Fargo, but I chose not to get into the conversation
because of the apparent good it was doing according to others. I understood how
the ratings would apply to parimutual betting but I never knew it applied to handicapping.

I figured that handicapping was xnay for higher level players anyway so it really didn't affect me.

So how does Fargo affect handicapping to start off with?



Quote:

Originally Posted by hang-the-9 (Post 6484372)
Players are gaming the Fargo ratings with dumping cheaper events to cash easier in the larger tournaments. I am beginning to think this whole idea of a fair handicapped tournament or league does not exist due to cheaters. Someone always finds a way no matter how you try to make handicapping fair. I may be down to playing in one tournament that is not handicapped and charity stuff.

Probably the only fair way to do handicaps is if you get assigned a handicap by the person that is running the tournament that knows how you play in relation to others there. Aside from that, those that cheat win, automated systems rely on good information, which many seem to be against giving.


DelawareDogs 09-26-2019 09:37 AM

I remember when FargoRate wasn't yet used as a handicapping system for the games. Rather it was still displayed on screen at USBTC..... maybe to give the audience an idea of probable outcome, or for making lines on bets.

JC 09-26-2019 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hang-the-9 (Post 6484372)

Probably the only fair way to do handicaps is if you get assigned a handicap by the person that is running the tournament that knows how you play in relation to others there. Aside from that, those that cheat win, automated systems rely on good information, which many seem to be against giving.

That's what we used to do, remember?

How did that work out?

Can you give an example of people dumping? Many times in league play I'm tired and not in the mood to play due to a long day. Then I have a shot of whiskey and I really don't care much what happens next. Banging balls with friends is all it is to me at that point. I lose a LOT of games I wouldn't under different circumstances due to it but that's not dumping. And a huge percentage of my fargo scores comes from league. So I go to an afternoon tournament that I care about and destroy a couple players who are 20 points higher than me am I a sandbagger?

garczar 09-26-2019 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newcuer (Post 6484382)
As with all alleged sandbagging...this seems like a lot of work for little gain. Are you sure you are not getting this vibe from players who just lose but have to excuse their defeats by claiming to be sandbagging? You might be right, but more than sandbagging, I see a lot people who try to claim they are sandbagging to boost their egos.

Pretty much agree. There's been a couple around here but they kinda tripped over their own d^*ks and got called-out. See very little of it actually. You might pull it off a little while but not for very long. Too much $$ to be had playin' it straight.

newcuer 09-26-2019 09:49 AM

It doesn't make any sense...who is going to throw away their time and money on one tournament on a hunch they might be able to make more money in another tournament?

Especially, considering how low the prize money for any pool tournaments (even the 'big' ones) are.

sjm 09-26-2019 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newcuer (Post 6484407)
It doesn't make any sense...who is going to throw away their time and money on one tournament on a hunch they might be able to make more money in another tournament?

Especially, considering how low the prize money for any pool tournaments (even the 'big' ones) are.

It runs deeper than that. I (at least in theory, as I haven't competed for fifteen years) can manipulate my own Fargo and use it when I match up in action. If my real speed is 690 but my Fargo is 625, I will mention my Fargo anytime I negotiate a game.

At a place like Derby City, where getting information on randomly encountered prospective action opponents isn't always easy, having an artificially low Fargo can be a decided advantage. People bet real high at the Derby, so it can be well worth it.


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