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-   -   BHE and FHE English system? (https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=430606)

tonythetiger583 07-08-2016 10:37 PM

BHE and FHE English system?
 
I'm trying to work out a system or guidelines to using Back Hand English (BHE) and Front Hand English (FHE), but I don't really know much about it. I just came up with the idea today, and I was hoping I could get help sorting it all out.

So what I know up until this point:

- with BHE, the QB comes off straight at the target and after a while swerves in.
-FHE will squirt out more initially before swerving back in.

My approach has been to start with 100% BHE for the spin I'm putting on it, and subtract BHE, and add enough FHE to compensate for the swerve, depending on the shot, speed, etc.

I play on a barbox, so needing a shorter bridge is not uncommon.

I think the halfway point between the tip and the Natural Pivot Point (let's call it the Halfway Pivot Point), let's you use a 50/50 blend of BHE/FHE to achieve the same results as 100% BHE.

So I think it'll let me use pivot English with different bridge lengths


For example if I use the Halfway Pivot, I use 50% BHE and 50% FHE, it'll go straight down the line of aim. If I need to add squirt to negate swerve, I minus both in their relative proportions and add the FHE.

And I think it let's you move up and down your shaft like an instrument.

So let's say the distance between your Natural Pivot Point is and Halfway Pivot Point is 5 inches (or you divide whatever the distance is by 5):

Natural Pivot Point: 100% BHE / 0% FHE
+1 inch: 90% BHE / 10% FHE
+2 inches: 80% BHE / 20% FHE
+3 inches: 70% BHE / 30% FHE
+4 inches: 60% BHE / 40% FHE
Halfway Pivot Point: 50% BHE / 50% FHE

And this will replicate the cue traveling straight down the aim line like your natural pivot point, and you just mix in extra FHE to compensate for the swerve.

tonythetiger583 07-09-2016 07:08 PM

Okay, so tested it out on the table and the Halfway pivot point was a bust.
But I think I have it figured out.

Level Cue

-So BHE will stay on the shot line immediately before eventually swerving off.
-FHE will squirt off more initially before swerving onto the shot line.
-Usually you add BHE first, and tack on increasing amounts of FHE to compensate for the swerve.

-If you use any point other than the natural pivot point, you need to blend BHE and FHE and then add on FHE to counteract the swerve.

-The shorter your bridge, the higher the proportion of FHE starting from none at the pivot point. The shorter your bridge the less BHE will squirt the ball over, so you need to use FHE to add more squirt.

-It works the same for increasingly longer bridges, except you need to add FHE in the opposite direction, before you blend in the BHE. The longer the bridge. the more BHE will squirt over, so you need to use FHE to squirt it in the opposite direciton.

That is only to get you to make the ball go straight down the shot line and you still need to add a bit of FHE for swerve.

Elevated Cue:
- Swerve effects are greater so you need to use pure FHE to get the ball to squirt over as much as possible before hitting your target.
-If FHE isn't enough, parallel squirts about twice as much as FHE.
- You can also use BHE and hit the ball thick and use the elevation and swerve to thin the ball.

I also figured out something I think is neat:
-If you aim thick, you can hit a ball harder to make it squirt over more, or you can add English, hit it soft and have the ball swerve over to still make the ball.

It forms this neat little triangle of Aim, Spin, Speed where you can do a sort of pick any two thing.

So you can Aim anywhere within reason, and use any speed, make the ball, but you have to apply the specific spin.

Or you can Aim anywhere, use any spin, but you have to use the specific speed.

You can also use any speed you want, any spin you want, but don't get to aim where you want I guess.

tonythetiger583 07-09-2016 07:13 PM

Also the BHE FHE kinda looks like a ratio within a ratio.

So first is the BHE:FHE ratio is for the shot line in terms of where you bridge alone your cue.

Ex: 80% BHE/ 20% FHE for a slightly shorter bridge.

Then that proportion of BHE/FHE has to fit within a larger ratio of the BHE to FHE ratio for squirt and swerve.

so it would look something like

( (BHE:FHE) : FHE )

The Renfro 07-09-2016 07:21 PM

There is no swerve component with a level cue.... Swerve only occurs if you have some downward attack angle.... I have a video somewhere proving this and Dr Dave's site goes over that as well......

tonythetiger583 07-09-2016 07:39 PM

But the cue's not completely level. Unless you're putting top, the rail's gunna be in the way.

The Renfro 07-09-2016 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonythetiger583 (Post 5603758)
But the cue's not completely level. Unless you're putting top, the rail's gunna be in the way.


True statement..... only in certain instances will the cue be level but you can still stroke thru the ball with the tip being on a level plane... Controlling attack angle and the tip will go a long way toward helping you work thru your project.....

iusedtoberich 07-09-2016 08:26 PM

My CB noticeably swerves (to my eyes) when I have top spin. Even more so than when I have bottom spin.

Gorramjayne 07-09-2016 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iusedtoberich (Post 5603787)
My CB noticeably swerves (to my eyes) when I have top spin. Even more so than when I have bottom spin.

Are you playing an LD shaft?

Note that your front end mass of the cue pushes the CB away from it, so just as it causes left/right squirt, it can push the CB into/away from the slate and increase/decrease initial friction with the cloth at the moment the CB takes off. So with a non-LD shaft a lot of top will momentarily push the CB into the cloth as the CB takes off which may cause the swerve you're observing, whereas a low hit will push the CB up away from the cloth so the spin doesn't take immediately and the swerve is slightly delayed.

Basically the lower the deflection of your shaft, the higher you can hit without squirt AND swerve affecting your line, and with a 13mm+ high deflection shaft you can cheat swerve by hitting a little lower.

Mind also that most shots you line up with BHE you're going to pop pretty hard to avoid swerve which is not great for controlling CB placement.. I personally find that if I'm in a situation where I'm tempted to use BHE it's because I did something wrong with CB control on the previous shot.

That may not sound helpful, but in all reality you can drastically reduce your dependence on all forms of english, including parallel, by really mastering your follow and draw control, some of this may be helped by finding a way to forward-weight your cue a little bit more.

iusedtoberich 07-10-2016 06:48 AM

I play with a 314 series shaft. If you put the CB 1" from the rail, and shoot at a ball across the table (short ways), the CB can swerve almost a full ball width. That's my experience.

These pivot systems I just can't get behind, when I see the CB move so much. They don't make any sense to me. To each his own:)

dr_dave 07-10-2016 07:30 AM

Check out the videos and articles on the BHE/FHE resource page. They cover BHE, FHE, and combos of BHE/FHE in great detail.

Enjoy,
Dave

Cornerman 07-10-2016 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iusedtoberich (Post 5603787)
My CB noticeably swerves (to my eyes) when I have top spin. Even more so than when I have bottom spin.

Ditto. It starts to swerve quicker with follow, given the same stroke speed, english offset and cue angle.

Freddie <~~~ it's a Coriolis thing

dr_dave 07-10-2016 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornerman (Post 5604037)
Ditto. It starts to swerve quicker with follow, given the same stroke speed, english offset and cue angle.

This is caused by two effects. For those interested, they are described and illustrated in detail here:

draw/follow squirt/swerve effects

Enjoy,
Dave

Cornerman 07-10-2016 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonythetiger583 (Post 5602970)
I'm trying to work out a system or guidelines to using Back Hand English (BHE) and Front Hand English (FHE), but I don't really know much about it. I just came up with the idea today, and I was hoping I could get help sorting it all out.

So what I know up until this point:

- with BHE, the QB comes off straight at the target and after a while swerves in.
-FHE will squirt out more initially before swerving back in.

My approach has been to start with 100% BHE for the spin I'm putting on it, and subtract BHE, and add enough FHE to compensate for the swerve, depending on the shot, speed, etc.

I play on a barbox, so needing a shorter bridge is not uncommon.

I think the halfway point between the tip and the Natural Pivot Point (let's call it the Halfway Pivot Point), let's you use a 50/50 blend of BHE/FHE to achieve the same results as 100% BHE.

So I think it'll let me use pivot English with different bridge lengths


For example if I use the Halfway Pivot, I use 50% BHE and 50% FHE, it'll go straight down the line of aim. If I need to add squirt to negate swerve, I minus both in their relative proportions and add the FHE.

And I think it let's you move up and down your shaft like an instrument.

So let's say the distance between your Natural Pivot Point is and Halfway Pivot Point is 5 inches (or you divide whatever the distance is by 5):

Natural Pivot Point: 100% BHE / 0% FHE
+1 inch: 90% BHE / 10% FHE
+2 inches: 80% BHE / 20% FHE
+3 inches: 70% BHE / 30% FHE
+4 inches: 60% BHE / 40% FHE
Halfway Pivot Point: 50% BHE / 50% FHE

And this will replicate the cue traveling straight down the aim line like your natural pivot point, and you just mix in extra FHE to compensate for the swerve.

Where are you located? It'd be easier to discuss what you're trying to do while at a table.

I'd say that you're overthinking, but then again, I like what you're thinking from an instructional and informational point of view.


Freddie <~~~ can't add, let alone complex BHE:FHE computations

Skippy27 07-10-2016 10:32 PM

My only question would be...... Why even use a stroke or aim that has so many different variables that will change with shot distance, cleanseliness of balls and type of cloth?

I understand using it sometime when you absolutely have to get the cue ball somewhere though and maybe that is what you speak of.

The Renfro 07-10-2016 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skippy27 (Post 5604692)
My only question would be...... Why even use a stroke or aim that has so many different variables that will change with shot distance, cleanseliness of balls and type of cloth?

I understand using it sometime when you absolutely have to get the cue ball somewhere though and maybe that is what you speak of.

because knowledge is power and even after this exercise fades into his past part of it that works the best will be part of his game... Some players spend their whole life by feel and that is 100% fine but some players want/need that little bit of math/science to keep them in touch with the journey......


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