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-   -   Diamond system history (https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=439824)

JPol 11-09-2016 01:22 AM

Diamond system history
 
I am searching for the "beginning" of the "diamond system".

I would like to know the persons who had the idea to use a formula, the
persons who defined the coding of the diamonds, the persons who improve it,
and the dates of that (probably around 1920).

At the moment, I have nothing except an article of J. Earle Miller
in "Popular Mechanics Magazine" April 1926, which describes the system and
mainly the "McGoorty, A pool room hustler" of R.Byrne, where, page 167,
Dann McGoorty said

"Not only did Hoppe not use the diamond system, he had nothing to do with
developing it. That was done by Copulus, Layton, and Clarence Jackson".

I've seen elsewhere that Johnny Layton was named "The Diamond King", and that
Michael Phelan was responsible of the diamonds.

Have anyone some references ?

Thanks in advance,

J-P.G, France

Mr. Bond 11-10-2016 08:36 AM

In 1850 Michael Phelan was the first American to author a book on billiards.

There were a few previous books published in Europe, in which "aiming methods" and "banking methods" were illustrated and explained, with shot diagrams etc. You might be able to say that those were the first, published, "aiming systems".

But in my opinion, and as far as I know, it was Michael Phelan who deliberately addressed the diamonds first. He has even been credited for being the first to place diamonds in the rails at all.

Look in his book "Billiards Without A Master" starting on page 58
http://chicagobilliardmuseum.org/fil...ter_PHELAN.pdf

book collector 11-11-2016 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPol (Post 5717213)
I am searching for the "beginning" of the "diamond system".

I would like to know the persons who had the idea to use a formula, the
persons who defined the coding of the diamonds, the persons who improve it,
and the dates of that (probably around 1920).

At the moment, I have nothing except an article of J. Earle Miller
in "Popular Mechanics Magazine" April 1926, which describes the system and
mainly the "McGoorty, A pool room hustler" of R.Byrne, where, page 167,
Dann McGoorty said

"Not only did Hoppe not use the diamond system, he had nothing to do with
developing it. That was done by Copulus, Layton, and Clarence Jackson".

I've seen elsewhere that Johnny Layton was named "The Diamond King", and that
Michael Phelan was responsible of the diamonds.

Have anyone some references ?

Thanks in advance,

J-P.G, France

All roads lead to Mingaud.

hunger strike 07-01-2018 11:53 AM

Mingaud
 
There are no diamonds or markers on Mingaud's diagrams...so could you explain what you mean?

K2Kraze 07-25-2018 11:16 AM

Diamond system history
 
This is an interesting thread, JPol - and deserving of more attention and possible input.

Iíll see what I can dig up and do some sleuthing in my cuesports library.

Any chance to resurrect / restart / post this gem in the Main section?

~ K.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

bbb 07-30-2018 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K2Kraze (Post 6191637)
This is an interesting thread, JPol - and deserving of more attention and possible input.

Iíll see what I can dig up and do some sleuthing in my cuesports library.

Any chance to resurrect / restart / post this gem in the Main section?

~ K.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

i would really like to read whatever you can find.

maldito 08-23-2018 05:15 PM

I read somewhere it was Bob Cannefax - found this

http://www.sfbilliards.com/Misc/Cannefax.pdf


probably there were ideas on this before by others

Bob Jewett 08-23-2018 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maldito (Post 6210484)
I read somewhere it was Bob Cannefax - found this

http://www.sfbilliards.com/Misc/Cannefax.pdf


probably there were ideas on this before by others

And the Cannefax charts are as wrong as the ones in Hoppe's book. No adjustment for third rail contact. All the 2s on the third rail go to the corner. Those people must have known that was wrong. Why did they print it?

book collector 08-26-2018 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Jewett (Post 6210496)
And the Cannefax charts are as wrong as the ones in Hoppe's book. No adjustment for third rail contact. All the 2s on the third rail go to the corner. Those people must have known that was wrong. Why did they print it?

I doubt they even looked at the stuff.
They got a royalty for every one sold, and that's all they cared about.
It seems like back then, no one ever broke the thieves code and told an outsider anything.
I'm sure you know,this is for those trying to learn , but every one of those great players could be traced back to another great player or more who took them under their wing and tutored them.
Many of them were nephews . I think the only one they never could trace back was Thomas Hueston, there wasn't another great player within 200 miles of where he grew up.
My memory isn't worth 10 cents any more so if it wasn't Hueston , please give the correct name.
But, as far as I know , only 1 champion player besides Mingaud, ever had a possibility of learning, without a previous champions help.

Richard Kapela 10-11-2018 09:04 AM

Mardon (1844) does not have diamonds either. Of course, that deals with a different game, and doubling (banking) at that time was probably not common. The earliest I can find diamonds is in Phelan (Billiards Without A Master, 1850).

Bob Jewett 10-11-2018 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Kapela (Post 6243133)
Mardon (1844) does not have diamonds either. Of course, that deals with a different game, and doubling (banking) at that time was probably not common. The earliest I can find diamonds is in Phelan (Billiards Without A Master, 1850).

So far as I know, the British never put multiple, evenly-spaced sights (diamonds) around their rails. Whether it was Phelan's invention or someone else's is a good question. Have we answered that yet?


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