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-   -   Rack Your Own - 14.1 - What to do here ? (https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=496732)

stevekur1 07-16-2019 08:20 AM

Rack Your Own - 14.1 - What to do here ?
 
Hey All,

I am not a fan of this, but I do get the Pro's and Con's of it.

What do you do if players are playing Rack Your Own 14.1 and the guy racking for himself is either Racking Too High or Too Low, or is angling the rack a bit to give himself a better opportunity of a better break ?

I would think this would fall under a Unsportsmanlike Conduct Foul, or possible loss of match or dis-qualification.

The other side of this, what to do in same situation if its opponent racking bad in the same way for his/her opponent.

What do you guys think ?
Steve

Kevin Lindstrom 07-16-2019 09:13 AM

As league operator why don't you confront the culprits and ask them whats the deal?

Based on their answer you can then decide if you still want them as part of your league.

I am always suspicious and disgusted by people who knowingly want to cheat in any way shape or form in any activity or sport.

Kevin

stevekur1 07-16-2019 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Lindstrom (Post 6438073)
As league operator why don't you confront the culprits and ask them whats the deal?

Based on their answer you can then decide if you still want them as part of your league.

I am always suspicious and disgusted by people who knowingly want to cheat in any way shape or form in any activity or sport.

Kevin

Hey Kev,

This did not happen in my league, but it came up in conversation with a few league players. Thought I should come up with a solution if it ever happens though !!

Thx for your input
Steve

Saturated Fats 07-16-2019 09:28 AM

Here's one solution, but it assumes that you have the authority to (temporarily) mark up the table. Many house men frown on this because some dipstick may not do it properly and permanently mark up the table.

Before a match, trace the rack with a water soluble chalk marking pencil. These come in a variety of types and are available at Amazon or from local sewing stores like JoAnn Fabrics. Here's an example:

https://amazon.com/Water-Soluble-Mar...s%2C279&sr=8-1

After the match, you can erase all traces of the marking by wiping with a damp cloth. At the room where I play, we leave the markings on the table - with management's approval - and the 14.1 league players actually seek out the tables that have been marked.

stevekur1 07-16-2019 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saturated Fats (Post 6438085)
Here's one solution, but it assumes that you have the authority to (temporarily) mark up the table. Many house men frown on this because some dipstick may not do it properly and permanently mark up the table.

Before a match, trace the rack with a water soluble chalk marking pencil. These come in a variety of types and are available at Amazon or from local sewing stores like JoAnn Fabrics. Here's an example:

https://amazon.com/Water-Soluble-Mar...s%2C279&sr=8-1

After the match, you can erase all traces of the marking by wiping with a damp cloth. At the room where I play, we leave the markings on the table - with management's approval - and the 14.1 league players actually seek out the tables that have been marked.

I carry one of these in my case. The room I play in has the outlines for inside and outside lines to be exact with the placement !!

vinay 07-16-2019 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevekur1 (Post 6438019)
What do you do if players are playing Rack Your Own 14.1 and the guy racking for himself is either Racking Too High or Too Low, or is angling the rack a bit to give himself a better opportunity of a better break ?

It took me a while to realize that the video was in your signature not part of the post. I was like... the racks look fine, what's he complaining about?

sjm 07-16-2019 12:05 PM

I think that, philosophically, this must be dealt with as it would be in nine ball. Even in rack your own, opponent may inspect and reject the rack you give yourself and may even call a referee over if they feel something is amiss. In an extreme situation, the referee may be asked to rack the balls.

I really don't see how this could be viewed as an unsportsmanlike foul carrying the mandatory 15 point penalty, although persistent offenders might be warned and, ultimately, disciplined according to league rules.

Interesting question. I've certainly seen players rack low when they weren't sure they could catch the corner ball once or twice.

Bob Jewett 07-16-2019 12:27 PM

A line needs to be drawn around the triangle and the triangle must be placed to match. I hope this is obvious.

There are some poorly informed people who think the sticker that is sometimes placed over the foot spot is the spot and anywhere on it is good enough. They're wrong. The foot spot is a single point, not an area. I think the rule book says nothing about the protective sticker needed for nine ball and eight ball.

The rack needs to be in the right place and as tight as possible.

The only possible exception I can think of is what nine ball players sometimes do by mutual consent: on old cloth they rack a little forward of the spot because otherwise the one ball will roll up into the crater and they don't have the time or equipment or permission to fix the table.

DynoDan 07-16-2019 12:31 PM

“Rack your own”, is as silly a concept as ‘acting as your own referee’. But, since that is the direction the game is apparently taking, much as you should traditionally not challenge a referee’s decision (or check how he racks), likely you should not question the honor of your opponent if he is acting as such. Of course, if you think he consistently mis-racks in his own favor, you alway have the option to do likewise, assuming your own sense of honor allows.

Seth C. 07-16-2019 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Jewett (Post 6438222)
A line needs to be drawn around the triangle and the triangle must be placed to match. I hope this is obvious.

There are some poorly informed people who think the sticker that is sometimes placed over the foot spot is the spot and anywhere on it is good enough. They're wrong. The foot spot is a single point, not an area. I think the rule book says nothing about the protective sticker needed for nine ball and eight ball.

The rack needs to be in the right place and as tight as possible.

The only possible exception I can think of is what nine ball players sometimes do by mutual consent: on old cloth they rack a little forward of the spot because otherwise the one ball will roll up into the crater and they don't have the time or equipment or permission to fix the table.

Bob — What “equipment” would be used to fix the craters or divots that develop over time as a result of racking the 14 balls over and over again? I can think of only one thing that helps, at least temporarily: brushing the rack area.

Separate question: any suggestions as to how to prevent the craters from forming in the first place? Again I can think of only one thing: purposefully racking in a slightly different place each time (in practice, not match play).

Bob Jewett 07-16-2019 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth C. (Post 6438461)
Bob — What “equipment” would be used to fix the craters or divots that develop over time as a result of racking the 14 balls over and over again? I can think of only one thing that helps, at least temporarily: brushing the rack area.

Separate question: any suggestions as to how to prevent the craters from forming in the first place? Again I can think of only one thing: purposefully racking in a slightly different place each time (in practice, not match play).

As for fixing the spot crater, Mr. Stone, my boss at the rec center, would use lint and Elmer's glue to fill the hole and then put a new sticker on. Maybe the table mechanics have a better way.

You could try what the Europeans sometimes do: tap/train the table. That's joining them rather than fighting them. Stan Shuffett does something similar, I believe, with clear donuts. I believe there was a product sold that was 9 or 15 donuts on a backing sheet that you could press onto the table all at once. Doing it one at a time is bothersome.

If there are only one or two balls that move after racking, you can try brushing and tapping just those positions.

Actually, in Europe it is now forbidden to play 14.1 on a tapped table (or the tapped end of a table) because the rack is too good and there are several dead shots you can play. Sound familiar? I have heard that they use standard triangles on the other end of the table if one end is tapped.

DynoDan 07-17-2019 02:13 PM

Just occurred you could likely clamp a solid straight edge to a heavy wooden rack with ‘C’ clamps (thus trapping the balls in tightly), set it perfectly in place, and after laying a flat solid surface on top, then weight it down heavily (couple of anvils?) and leave it a few days. Might try it since racking the balls tight on my old cloth has lately become an exercise in frustration.

Bob Jewett 07-17-2019 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DynoDan (Post 6439111)
Just occurred you could likely clamp a solid straight edge to a heavy wooden rack with ‘C’ clamps (thus trapping the balls in tightly), set it perfectly in place, and after laying a flat solid surface on top, then weight it down heavily (couple of anvils?) and leave it a few days. Might try it since racking the balls tight on my old cloth has lately become an exercise in frustration.

The way that tables are trained/tapped in Europe is they have a racking template but the round holes are slightly closer than a ball diameter. The template is set in place exactly and then one at a time the balls are placed and tapped. Having the holes slightly smaller than the balls ensures that the balls are leaning against each other slightly and therefor tight.

I don't know if they wet each spot before tapping but I believe the training procedure for the Sardo rack does. That seems to help form the dimple better.

An important point is that if you do tap the table, you still need a triangle marked to determine in/out or some balls that very close to the rack will be unplayable.

stevekur1 07-18-2019 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Jewett (Post 6439247)
The way that tables are trained/tapped in Europe is they have a racking template but the round holes are slightly closer than a ball diameter. The template is set in place exactly and then one at a time the balls are placed and tapped. Having the holes slightly smaller than the balls ensures that the balls are leaning against each other slightly and therefor tight.

I don't know if they wet each spot before tapping but I believe the training procedure for the Sardo rack does. That seems to help form the dimple better.

An important point is that if you do tap the table, you still need a triangle marked to determine in/out or some balls that very close to the rack will be unplayable.

Will tapping the table effect the path of a ball that slowly rolls across it ?

Bob Jewett 07-18-2019 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevekur1 (Post 6439686)
Will tapping the table effect the path of a ball that slowly rolls across it ?

If a ball is rolling slowly enough, any minor defect, including where someone has shot a power shot (white spot on the cloth) will have an effect on the roll of the ball. I think tapping has much less effect than you get from rolling across the sticker or over the crater at the spot due to the 8- and 9-ball players. If a ball is shot across the rack area hard enough to get to a pocket, I think you don't have to worry about the tapping.


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