Advice on break shots

king cut

Registered
hi runs 95, 81, 81, 79 and 50+ many times, but most runs end with first shot after making
the break shot and coming up stitched. I tried easier, harder, higher and lower on the rack, read books and watcher you tube, but can't seam to resolve this problem.
Any advice Please!@
 

king cut

Registered
Thanks
I'll try practicing this, should I be trying to it a ball square and not between 2 balls?
Also what book is this from and where can I buy it.
 

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
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Poolmanis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Grady Matthews video for 14.1 break shots is the Teacher!
Best what I've seen for 14.1 break shots so far...
If I remember it right it is accu-stats production.
 

king cut

Registered
All the responses have been great and helpful. Learned a little from each video. Goal of 100 balls getting closer. Thanks to all.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
All the responses have been great and helpful. Learned a little from each video. Goal of 100 balls getting closer. Thanks to all.

You must be a helluva player to get those high runs and at the same time have only a little knowledge of the break shot.

Congrats!
 

king cut

Registered
Never really studied the game, just hit the rack hard. Now that I'm retired I have time to study and practice the science of the game. That is what makes this game so great, you can never stop learning. Playing for 50 years and still finding new ways to enjoy the game.
 

Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Great info right here, thanks for everything David !!!

Thanks
I'll try practicing this, should I be trying to it a ball square and not between 2 balls?
Also what book is this from and where can I buy it.QUOTE]

that is what many of us are wondering !!!

what do you say David ?

-Steve

I too would very much appreciate hearing opinions (and bases for those opinions) about where to try to have the cue ball strike a ball or balls in the stack (the middle balls, not the top ball or the bottom ball). Many thanks in advance. By the way, maybe it is just me, but I didn't find the diagrams and explanations in "Examining the Break Shot" to be particularly clear/informative ...
 

Blackjack

Illuminati Blacksmack
Silver Member
That is probably because that section is part of a larger 14.1 course that I teach - this section is to be used as a guide - and what is contained in that section is accompanied with a 2 hour block of instruction along with 15 additional videos.
 
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Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That is probably because that section is part of a larger 14.1 course that I teach - this section is to be used as a guide - and what is contained in that section is accompanied with a 2 hour block of instruction along with 15 additional videos.

My apologies for what must have seemed like rudeness. It wasn't meant to be. Among other things, I didn't realize that the material was yours.

I should have elaborated. What confused me was this passage and the associated diagram:

"In the above diagram, we are shooting the shot from Cue Ball Z. There is a gap between the contact point and the Directional Line. To have the cue ball move along the Directional Line, follow would be needed. Center English – or Stun English would have the cue ball travel along the Tangent line and contact the 2 ball as diagrammed below.

"The dotted red line shows the direction of the cue ball with Stun English. This dotted red line can be bent forward by using follow – or it can be bent back by using draw. This line begins at the contact point and extends to a direct point on the rack. By using this method, you can accurately determine EXACTLY where you will contact the stack."

My confusion stems from the fact that the dotted red line does not appear to be the tangent line, and with a center ball hit, I would expect the cue ball to travel along the tangent line, not along what is shown as the dotted red line. Also, the relatively close proximity of the cue ball to the stack (as shown in the diagram in question) would seem to preclude any meaningful amount of deviation of the cue ball path from the tangent line as a result of using follow or draw, at least if the cue ball is struck other than softly, with at least moderate speed (which would seem to be advisable on a break shot).

Ultimately, I'm interested in getting feedback on the question of where to try to strike a given ball or balls in the stack, and why. Certainly there is some opportunity to alter the cue ball path with spin and speed, particularly if there is some distance between the cue ball and the stack. My instinct is that a flush hit or a hit on the center table side of the stack ball is preferable to a hit on the foot rail side of the ball, simply to reduce the chance of scratching. Whether I am correct or incorrect about that, what I don't have much sense for is whether a hit directly in the notch between two balls is problematic, and why.

At my level, I'm not incorporating English on most break shots simply because I want to make pocketing the shot the no. 1 priority, and I don't want to introduce complicating factors. The exception for me -- and I'm comfortable with this only because I've practiced it enough -- is that I will hit high inside when the break ball is low. This nicely brings the cue ball back to center table.

Thanks for your consideration of these questions.

Respectfully --
 

Blackjack

Illuminati Blacksmack
Silver Member
You did not come off as rude at all.

I wish there was an easy answer to this part of the game - but there isn't.

The diagram -
There may have been a twinge of follow on that shot - but not enough for me to classify it as "Follow/Stun.I made the diagram from the video - if it is confusing - or if it is in error - I sincerely apologize. I can only document what the cue ball did in the video on my table.

The main point of that lesson is that you can change the direction (from the object ball contact point) by using follow - stun - and draw - and all spin in between. Keep in mind that every shot is going to be different - and each table is going to react differently - and each situation will have it's own unique solution. That is why I tell players to learn which break balls work for them - and which break balls to stay away from.

Personally, I like my cue ball up and down with the break ball - slight outside angle - that way I can "follow" through the shot and hit the contact ball right on the nose. For me, follow tends to get the cue ball out of the way - in fact the cue ball "whips" then proceeds - I like that especially if I make good contact with the stack.

I don't like going into the gaps between balls because the cue ball tends to die - that is why I try to position my break ball where I can go into the corner balls in the stack (if it is possible). I don't like going into the side of the stack if I can help it - on behind the stack break shots - I prefer a higher / deeper angle so I can use follow - then again - these are just my preferences.

Different things work for different players based upon stroke mechanics - table conditions - etc. It makes if extremely difficult for anyone to say "use this" or use that" all the time on any particular break shot. There are just too many variables in this game.

I can only document what works for me and encourage you to experiment with break shots as much as you possibly can - that way you learn how to avoid the scratches and the dead spots.

That might sound like a cop out - but its really not. You just have to know what works for you - and even when you know what works for you - sometimes you're going to be wrong. That's just pool. Most of us get into trouble when we stray away from our capabilities - or we lose sight of what works best for us.

I believe that a break ball is only as good as what you did to get there. Find what works for you consistently and try to recreate that as much as possible. The high numbers come when you take advantage of what is working for you.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I too would very much appreciate hearing opinions (and bases for those opinions) about where to try to have the cue ball strike a ball or balls in the stack (the middle balls, not the top ball or the bottom ball). Many thanks in advance.

Like Blackjack said, "it depends." I think it depends most on who you ask that question of.

If you ask Jim Rempe he'll say follow when you have a sharp angle, draw with a shallow one. Hit it only hard enough that the cue ball would go 3 rails if the pack weren't there. Rempe does like going into the top two balls.

If you ask Mike Sigel he'll say follow when you have a sharp angle, draw with a shallow one. Hit 'em hard enough to open them up but don't try to play position on the break shot. Just hit the thing and open them up. Sigel is pissed if his cue ball is parallel to his break ball, and is happy if the cue ball is one ball width closer to the side rail.

If you ask Pat Fleming he'll say the same as above, but just smash 'em open.

If you ask Tony Robles he'll show you how to get the cue ball to center table with inside draw while the opposite side top ball will pop out and go toward the side pocket so you can often get a shot on it with the cue ball rolling in that direction. In other words, Tony seems interested in playing position on the break shot.

One HOF player likes breaks from the back of the rack, and another avoids them because it sends too many balls up table and makes you go chase them

Some (I think George Fels among them) preferred to chip away at the corner balls, and steer away from the large mass of the 2 center balls.

Joe Tucker has a good book on break shots for various games. He talks about hitting the top, side, or bottom of each ball. If you know where you are going to contact the ball, you can even hit follow on a shallow angle if it suits you (my statement, not Tucker's).

Of course then there is the famous Mosconi break shot at a sharp angle. Done correctly, the balls scatter all over the lower half of the table, and the cue ball stays in the middle. "Doing it correctly" I think requires that you are Willie Mosconi. Why do virtually no professionals shoot this shot? Mystery to me. They all seem to prefer shallow breaks that they have to force. Sigel says it is because they don't know any better. :shrug: I guess it's as good a reason as any other I've heard.

Bottom line is I have yet to find any real secret that guarantees you a good break with a shot afterwords. If such a thing exists, I'd love to hear it, too. I think, for me, on a particular table, you can kind of just tell when you're hitting them too hard (balls end up clumped in funny places) or not hard enough.
 

Poolmanis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've actually got inspired by this thread and practiced a lot of straight pool lately. Emphasis have been thinking outside of box and training all kinda break shots.. I've probably learned a lot more than many years due a lot of experimenting..
I could do do some kind instructional video if peoples are interested..
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
hi runs 95, 81, 81, 79 and 50+ many times, but most runs end with first shot after making
the break shot and coming up stitched. I tried easier, harder, higher and lower on the rack, read books and watcher you tube, but can't seam to resolve this problem.
Any advice Please!@

I had another thought. Have you ever tried using inside follow? This will bring you around the corner pocket and out to the middle of the table if you don't hit it too hard. Some think this maximizes your chances of getting a starting ball. Might be worth trying if you haven't yet.
 

Poolmanis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I had another thought. Have you ever tried using inside follow? This will bring you around the corner pocket and out to the middle of the table if you don't hit it too hard. Some think this maximizes your chances of getting a starting ball. Might be worth trying if you haven't yet.

Good tip. I learned this way breaking also when I was experimenting break shots lately. If using rack side English you many times get 1 pocket opening safety results.. All balls are blocking others and cue ball is near side rail.
You just need to know when it's safe to use inside English.
 
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