WHo's your pick? RObles or Hohmann for World Straight Pool Champ

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The field of competitors in those 70s and 80s straight pool tournaments were so much better than the fields the TH competes in today and for at least the past 10 years - I have seen most of the competitors from the 70s to now playing 14.1 live and TH would really struggle to come in the top 5 of anything from the 70s and 80s, much less against Mosconi, Crane, Caras, Greenleaf, Ponzi, etc. in their prime, I really do not rank TH in the top 12 of 14.1 all time- at a minimum.

I think I have to disagree with this. Ist off, I'm not going to consider the older guys as I only saw Mosconi in person. People from back then claim Greenleaf was better but that's hard for me to believe. Of the others mentioned, I think the general consensus would be that Mosconi was the best of the bunch.
As far as the next generation goes I would rank only Mizerak, Sigel and Varner as having an edge on Hohmann. And it wouldn't be a very big edge. The others mentioned are a step behind, IMO, and that includes Hopkins who many attach godlike status to but I can't quite figure out why. I don't think Thorsten would have any trouble going deep in those tournaments back then and he'd win his share.
When talking about something like this, there're 2 ways of looking at it. You can consider the overall talent level or you can look at it from the standpoint of will to win and that is a huge, huge factor when you get to the upper echelon of any endeavor.
Of those 4 I'd rank Mizerak 1st talent wise and Sigel 1st in the killer instinct category but Hohmann is right up there in both.
I agree completely that the overall fields are easier today, particularly in the "World" tournaments of late. The American 14.1 is considerably tougher but still a little weaker than the old tourneys. Reason being is simply that the new guys don't play much straight pool. If they did I think they'd be stronger as a group than the 70's/80's guys. JMO
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
I think I have to disagree with this. Ist off, I'm not going to consider the older guys as I only saw Mosconi in person. People from back then claim Greenleaf was better but that's hard for me to believe. Of the others mentioned, I think the general consensus would be that Mosconi was the best of the bunch.

Mosconi vs Greenleaf is almost too close to call. I was told that statistically, Mosconi had more games in which he won on the first inning than Greenleaf, but that Greenleaf got out in two innings or less more often than Mosconi.
 

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
LOL if you're trying to compare these events to those that had Steve Mizerak, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, Irving Crane, Joe Balsis, Dallas West, Ray Martin, Allen Hopkins, Dan DiLiberto, Jimmy Fusco, Jack Colavita, Larry Lisciotti and Pete Margo. Even Luther Lassiter and Jimmy Caras, though past their primes, were still in the mix in some of these years. All of them were focusing on straight pool back then, and every single one of them was a contender for the title of world champion.

As we've noted regularly on this forum, these Dragon events have not been world championship events for close to ten years now and, to be fair, the European Championships most definitely offer the strongest 14.1 field of the calendar year.

I wonder whether Hohmann could have topped the fields of yesteryear, given how many stone cold champions you had to beat to take down the title. He'd have been hard pressed to win even once against the toughest fields, though I feel he'd have found a way. For my money, though, he'd have always been a clear underdog against both Mizerak and Sigel.

I attended about nine world championships from the mid 1970's to the mid-1980's and I've probably attended nine of the Dragon 14.1 events. Comparing the two is comical.


Well sjm-

i have the (seriously) greatest respect for you Person :)
But i think, that Toastie is in straight pool the guy- since a longer time. I m a fan as well talking about the "old legend".
But if we have a look at Hohman- and some of his "records" in wtiraight pool tournaments- with STRONG fiels. Or just taking the time, where he was still playin in germany- These results are speakin the truth Buddy.

Iirc his General average in one European Championship was 60+ (and we COUNT every inning, including every safety, opening shot etc).

To Play 60+ over a complete tournament, packed with strong guys-- that s a Statement.
As you said-- the european Championships is packed with good Players. I don t think there is a single Player who never ran out a straight pool match in one inning. (talking about a full field of Players).

But here, like in USA-- straight pool also became a bit more *forgotten*. But you see immediatley, that the really strong guys also Play straight pool.
I also agree, that the game changed, also because of better material. But let s have a look a John Schmidt. His high runs on TOUGH tables showing clearly, how strong the ppl nowadays became technically. I think that s the biggest difference- that we now have hundreds of guys who re able to run 100+ (or more).

having some students atm- which are playin 4th and 3th Division here in leage---- and both ran just numbers, where some ppl can just dream of- and that s almot normal here in germany. running 300 in two innings- two days later two 100+ again in a row.
and he never won something in 14.1 in big chmpaionships.

And in Hohmans time here in germany, the fields have been packed with such guys. all the time, without exception.
and that s the reason imo, why Toastie is so good: he was always forced to Play world class pool, to have a Chance to win here in league, or whereever. (and of course next to his work ethic).


sorry for the typo-- mobile phone killin me :(

have a smooth stroke.
 

Poolmanis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In Europe peoples don´t really play 14.1. They practice it solo. Better players a LOT.
Only time they normally play it, is on tournaments. 14.1 Tournaments are quite rare still. Normally maybe one or 2 national tournaments per year + possible European Championships.
Anyways. It is number one practice for strong players(at least somewhere during their improvement).
I try always get 14.1 matches when I can. Normally I get 2-7 per year and if i happen to run 80-100(100 point game) my opponents normally don´t play it again.

Edit: maybe they play more 14.1 on Germany(Ratta´s post) :D
 
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Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Well sjm-

i have the (seriously) greatest respect for you Person :)
But i think, that Toastie is in straight pool the guy- since a longer time. I m a fan as well talking about the "old legend".
But if we have a look at Hohman- and some of his "records" in wtiraight pool tournaments- with STRONG fiels. Or just taking the time, where he was still playin in germany- These results are speakin the truth Buddy.

Iirc his General average in one European Championship was 60+ (and we COUNT every inning, including every safety, opening shot etc).

To Play 60+ over a complete tournament, packed with strong guys-- that s a Statement.
As you said-- the european Championships is packed with good Players. I don t think there is a single Player who never ran out a straight pool match in one inning. (talking about a full field of Players).

But here, like in USA-- straight pool also became a bit more *forgotten*. But you see immediatley, that the really strong guys also Play straight pool.
I also agree, that the game changed, also because of better material. But let s have a look a John Schmidt. His high runs on TOUGH tables showing clearly, how strong the ppl nowadays became technically. I think that s the biggest difference- that we now have hundreds of guys who re able to run 100+ (or more).

having some students atm- which are playin 4th and 3th Division here in leage---- and both ran just numbers, where some ppl can just dream of- and that s almot normal here in germany. running 300 in two innings- two days later two 100+ again in a row.
and he never won something in 14.1 in big chmpaionships.

And in Hohmans time here in germany, the fields have been packed with such guys. all the time, without exception.
and that s the reason imo, why Toastie is so good: he was always forced to Play world class pool, to have a Chance to win here in league, or whereever. (and of course next to his work ethic).


sorry for the typo-- mobile phone killin me :(

have a smooth stroke.

That 60+ average over the course of a top tournament will probably never be beaten, unless they start playing every match to 200 or something. I still like watching Engert play, more than Hohman, but Hohman is almost certainly the best straightpoolplayer for the last couple of decades, maybe even more. It's so hard to tell with all the people bringing up players that have been dead for half a century or more, that you have to be 70-80 plus years old to have even seen play and one, who probably no one alive has seen play. I'm not taking away from any of their skills and accomplishments, but it's just so hard to make those kinds of determinations when the players are long gone and there is not even much if any video of them in their prime.

Hohman plays the modern, European style of straight pool, which is big breaks, wide open play. It's kind of different to the players of the old era. It doesn't mean he has any less control, it's just a different way to play the game, made possible by better equipment. Had he lived in the old era, he would have adapted, had the old guys lived now, they would have adapted. It's not an apples to apples comparison.
 
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stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
In Europe peoples don´t really play 14.1. They practice it solo. Better players a LOT.
Only time they normally play it, is on tournaments. 14.1 Tournaments are quite rare still. Normally maybe one or 2 national tournaments per year + possible European Championships.
Anyways. It is number one practice for strong players(at least somewhere during their improvement).
I try always get 14.1 matches when I can. Normally I get 2-7 per year and if i happen to run 80-100(100 point game) my opponents normally don´t play it again.

Edit: maybe they play more 14.1 on Germany(Ratta´s post) :D

is there any video of the European Championships ?
 

Poolmanis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
https://www.facebook.com/europeanpocketbilliardfederation/videos/1780125635410897/

I haven´t seen that. It was freebie Feijen vs. Nolle
Epbf have stuff on facebook. I believe it is only place where you can find Kozoom free videos. Whole year on Kozoom Subs is 99€ if I remember right.(you can see all Eurotours/WC and a LOT of carambole with it too.)
They normally have commentary in only few matches.
We took it half/half with my little sister. I could see all 60 tables from European Champs :). It was a lot of fun see all Finnish Matches. I could not watch it if my sister was watching thought.. :D

If you have friend who likes to see 3 cushion you could then take it easily half/half and both can see a lot of tournaments.
 
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stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
https://www.facebook.com/europeanpocketbilliardfederation/videos/1780125635410897/

I haven´t seen that. It was freebie Feijen vs. Nolle
Epbf have stuff on facebook. I believe it is only place where you can find Kozoom free videos. Whole year on Kozoom Subs is 99€ if I remember right.(you can see all Eurotours/WC and a LOT of carambole with it too.)
They normally have commentary in only few matches.
We took it half/half with my little sister. I could see all 60 tables from European Champs :). It was a lot of fun see all Finnish Matches. I could not watch it if my sister was watching thought.. :D

If you have friend who likes to see 3 cushion you could then take it easily half/half and both can see a lot of tournaments.


Thanks Bro, now have some vodka !!

The link you provided does not work.

will look into the kazoom thing. i have plenty of 3 Cusion Junkie Friends

-Steve
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Since no one seems to have pointed it out yet in this thread, I will....

While this may be been a good tournament with several strong players, it was not a World Championship. The Dragon event has not been an official WC for several years. I believe only their first five (maybe four?) events were sanctioned by the WPA.

Two other tournaments probably have stronger fields now, the European Championships and the American 14.1. The latter has gotten much stronger fields over the last three or four years. I hope Peter Burrows can find enough added money to make it an official WC.
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... While this may be been a good tournament with several strong players, it was not a World Championship. The Dragon event has not been an official WC for several years. I believe only their first five (maybe four?) events were sanctioned by the WPA. ...

The WPA website shows world champions in straight pool for just 4 years -- 2006 (Hohmann), 2007 (Ortmann), 2008 (Feijen), and 2010 (Ortmann). So, 4 out of Dragon's first 5 events.
 

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
The WPA website shows world champions in straight pool for just 4 years -- 2006 (Hohmann), 2007 (Ortmann), 2008 (Feijen), and 2010 (Ortmann). So, 4 out of Dragon's first 5 events.

I always felt bad for Stephan Cohen. He won in 2009 against the same caliber field as Ortmann, same venue and same tables. The only thing that keeps him from being listed as a world champion is sanctioning. I just found it to be pretty brutal. I also wish it was sanctioned the same year the Mika won it since he got very close a number of years. But the field isn't as strong as it was in the early years.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Well sjm-

i have the (seriously) greatest respect for you Person :)
But i think, that Toastie is in straight pool the guy- since a longer time. I m a fan as well talking about the "old legend".
But if we have a look at Hohman- and some of his "records" in wtiraight pool tournaments- with STRONG fiels. Or just taking the time, where he was still playin in germany- These results are speakin the truth Buddy.

Iirc his General average in one European Championship was 60+ (and we COUNT every inning, including every safety, opening shot etc).

To Play 60+ over a complete tournament, packed with strong guys-- that s a Statement.
As you said-- the european Championships is packed with good Players. I don t think there is a single Player who never ran out a straight pool match in one inning. (talking about a full field of Players).

But here, like in USA-- straight pool also became a bit more *forgotten*. But you see immediatley, that the really strong guys also Play straight pool.
I also agree, that the game changed, also because of better material. But let s have a look a John Schmidt. His high runs on TOUGH tables showing clearly, how strong the ppl nowadays became technically. I think that s the biggest difference- that we now have hundreds of guys who re able to run 100+ (or more).

having some students atm- which are playin 4th and 3th Division here in leage---- and both ran just numbers, where some ppl can just dream of- and that s almot normal here in germany. running 300 in two innings- two days later two 100+ again in a row.
and he never won something in 14.1 in big chmpaionships.

And in Hohmans time here in germany, the fields have been packed with such guys. all the time, without exception.
and that s the reason imo, why Toastie is so good: he was always forced to Play world class pool, to have a Chance to win here in league, or whereever. (and of course next to his work ethic).


sorry for the typo-- mobile phone killin me :(

have a smooth stroke.

A generally well-reasoned post and we're together on the matter of whether Hohmann is an all-time great.

I think you've oversimplified the comparison between this and the "legend" generation of straight pool.

For starters, several of the old guard ran over 300 on 10 foot tables. Could today's players do that? We got a glimpse of it at the Derby City Classic one year (?2013?). That year, after five full days of qualifying attempts in which virtually every big name tried to qualify (Hohmann among them), only one player had a qualifying run of over 100, and it was snooker player named Pettman. Of the pool players, Feijen ran in the low 90's and no one else managed over 90. It took about 70 to qualify for the single elimination stage. By comparison, it takes about 130 or 140 to qualify when the nine footer is used at the Derby.

Another tricky consideration is that today's players play with better pool balls than the old guard (the old composition balls were much worse than today's sets) and today's players get to play on Simonis, rather than on a slow nappy cloth of yesteryear. Not only was position play more difficult back then, but the balls didn't spread nearly as well on the break shots. Of course, today's tables are tighter, offsetting much of this.

Also, contrary to what you suggest, there were hundreds of guys who could run 100 back in the hey day of straight pool, in some cases twenty of them playing in a single pool hall.
 

Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For starters, several of the old guard ran over 300 on 10 foot tables. Could today's players do that? We got a glimpse of it at the Derby City Classic one year (?2013?). That year, after five full days of qualifying attempts in which virtually every big name tried to qualify (Hohmann among them), only one player had a qualifying run of over 100, and it was snooker player named Pettman. Of the pool players, Feijen ran in the low 90's and no one else managed over 90. It took about 70 to qualify for the single elimination stage. By comparison, it takes about 130 or 140 to qualify when the nine footer is used at the Derby.

While I agree that changes in equipment -- especially faster cloth, which results in more balls being opened up with less force -- are an advantage for today's players, I'm not sure I see how the ten foot table example supports the argument that the old timers were better. They got to play on ten foot tables all the time! If the participants at the Derby Challenge in 2013(?) had played on ten footers their whole lives, they would have run more balls. As it was, they were playing in totally unfamiliar space.
 

Positively Ralf

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I quit trying to compare players from yesteryear to players in the present. And that is with all sports. Different eras and the games are just too different. Look at baseball as an example. The general idea stays the same, but playing conditions and the way they go about things are too different to try to compare.

for me, comparisons are just fun conversations to have with friends.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
While I agree that changes in equipment -- especially faster cloth, which results in more balls being opened up with less force -- are an advantage for today's players, I'm not sure I see how the ten foot table example supports the argument that the old timers were better. They got to play on ten foot tables all the time! If the participants at the Derby Challenge in 2013(?) had played on ten footers their whole lives, they would have run more balls. As it was, they were playing in totally unfamiliar space.

Nice post.

I would agree with this and I can extend this line of reasoning to say that if this era were a continuation of the straight pool era, and straight pool was the game the top guys played most of the time, the players today would be better than the old masters, and the top fifty of this era would be substantially better, as a group, than the top fifty of any era. That may or may not mean that Hohmann, the obvious best of this era, would have been better than the best of the early 14.1 masters (Willie Mosconi, Ralph Greenleaf, Irving Crane) or the best of the later 14.1 masters (Mike Sigel, Steve Mizerak, Nick Varner) but he certainly might have been.

My comments were largely motivated by Ratta's incomplete comparison of the two eras. I totally agree that if this generation of players played as much straight pool as the old masters, they might well run at least as many balls on the ten footers the old masters did. Nonetheless, to suggest that this generation of top players aren't comfortable on the ten footers is in error. Every year at the Derby City Bigfoot ten ball, it's easy to see that the top guys of today adjust very easily to playing on the ten footer.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
While I agree that changes in equipment -- especially faster cloth, which results in more balls being opened up with less force -- are an advantage for today's players, I'm not sure I see how the ten foot table example supports the argument that the old timers were better. They got to play on ten foot tables all the time! If the participants at the Derby Challenge in 2013(?) had played on ten footers their whole lives, they would have run more balls. As it was, they were playing in totally unfamiliar space.

I had the same thought. However, I thought the pockets on the old 10' tables were actually pretty small. Someone must have specs on those old tables somewhere.
 

Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nice post.

I would agree with this and I can extend this line of reasoning to say that if this era were a continuation of the straight pool era, and straight pool was the game the top guys played most of the time, the players today would be better than the old masters, and the top fifty of this era would be substantially better, as a group, than the top fifty of any era. That may or may not mean that Hohmann, the obvious best of this era, would have been better than the best of the early 14.1 masters (Willie Mosconi, Ralph Greenleaf, Irving Crane) or the best of the later 14.1 masters (Mike Sigel, Steve Mizerak, Nick Varner) but he certainly might have been.

My comments were largely motivated by Ratta's incomplete comparison of the two eras. I totally agree that if this generation of players played as much straight pool as the old masters, they might well run at least as many balls on the ten footers the old masters did. Nonetheless, to suggest that this generation of top players aren't comfortable on the ten footers is in error. Every year at the Derby City Bigfoot ten ball, it's easy to see that the top guys of today adjust very easily to playing on the ten footer.

Taking your last point first, I'm not in a good position to debate the issue of how quickly top players can adjust to a ten foot table, as I haven't watched them try (other than by watching some videos of the high run attempts from 2013(?)). It just strikes me that in straight pool, the ingrained familiarity with speed of break shots, angles coming off the stack, etc., etc. would likely cause players to come up short or, alternatively, overcompensate and go long.

As for the rest of your post, I will add to the agreement by saying that if the old masters had the benefit of today's equipment, they might prove out to be the best of the crops. To me, unlike with so many sports where size, strength, speed and fitness are big factors, pool requires none of these. Well, at some level one might say that fitness matters because fatigue harms performance, and in tournaments or matches that are very long, fatigue can set in. But eye/hand coordination, feel, touch, vision and imagination are what it is all about -- coupled with endless appetite for practice and a constitution that is founded on discipline and determination. I'm not sure that that package is any more likely to exist in us today than it was in players who played 25, 50 or 75 years ago.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I had the same thought. However, I thought the pockets on the old 10' tables were actually pretty small. ...
According to one report, the pockets were enlarged to stop the slow play of "The Inexorable Snail". Old-timers may know who I am talking about.
 

Seth C.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
According to one report, the pockets were enlarged to stop the slow play of "The Inexorable Snail". Old-timers may know who I am talking about.

At 61 I don't know if I qualify as an "old-timer," but in any event I didn't get the reference to "The Inexorable Snail." So I looked it up. Seems that the same individual also caused himself to be known as "The Sloth." Here's a short bio: http://gremsdoolittlelibrary.blogspot.com/2012/08/billiards-legend-frank-taberski.html?m=1
 
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